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OEC and ID

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My question is, what is the exactly distinction between OEC and ID? Can you be OEC and think that God created life in stages that resemble evolution? Can you be an ID type and think that God created through evolution?

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My question is, what is the exactly distinction between OEC and ID? Can you be OEC and think that God created life in stages that resemble evolution? Can you be an ID type and think that God created through evolution?

I don't think so.  If you watch the film "Expelled" with Ben Stein, it is clear that the evolution community considers ID to be sourge of the earth. 

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My question is, what is the exactly distinction between OEC and ID? Can you be OEC and think that God created life in stages that resemble evolution? Can you be an ID type and think that God created through evolution?

I don't think so.  If you watch the film "Expelled" with Ben Stein, it is clear that the evolution community considers ID to be sourge of the earth. 

 

Yeah. But suppose you decide to ignore their distaste of ID and look just at the principles.

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Those that think that God created through evolution are called Theistic Evolutionist and they are different from IDers.

 

This site gives the TE's point of view on ID....http://www.theistic-evolution.com/design.html

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Evolution simply cannot be mixed with creationism or with ID.   It may work in someone's imagination, but the reality is that neither the Bible nor Evolution are smorgasboards from which you can pick and choose according to your taste.  

 

You cannot be an evolutionist on your own terms.  At some point, you will need to decide if evolution or the Bible holds the truth.  God doesn't share His glory.   Trying to live with one foot in naturalism and one foot in the Bible simply doesn't work.  Those are two worldviews that stand mutually exclusive to each other.  

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I have never been comfortable telling someone what they can and cannot believe, just reeks too much of arrogance. I have read Dr Collins' The Language of God, and while I don't agree with him on it all he has a clear, concise and coherent point of view. To tell him he cannot hold that view is just going too far.

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shiloh- you've stated this before and at this point is kind of meaningless rhetoric to me. You can accuse me of smorgasbord reasoning all day but you have yet to convince me that I am in error that way.

 

Looking- I should check out the Collins book.

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It is a very good book, his journey to discovery is fascinating

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We have to look at the evidence with an open mind and let it speak for itself.  For example, if bristlecone pines tell us they are 8200 years old, then perhaps some of our dates, such as the Flood, may be coming from an error in assumptions.

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We have to look at the evidence with an open mind and let it speak for itself.  For example, if bristlecone pines tell us they are 8200 years old, then perhaps some of our dates, such as the Flood, may be coming from an error in assumptions.

 

 

Or maybe first we should look @ that "8200 year old" claim (I think it's actually 8700 years old) to Verify and assess Veracity.

 

 

Source:  http://creation.com/evidence-for-multiple-ring-growth-per-year-in-bristlecone-pines

 

 

It appears these trees and their subsequent "Tree Rings" are very sensitive to climate/weather anamolies......

 

 

'.....induced multiple ring growth in sapling BCPs by simply simulating a two week drought.'

Lammerts, W.E., Are the Bristle-cone Pine trees really so old? Creation Research Society Quarterly 20(2):108–115, 1983

 

 

An expert in the genus Pinus didn’t seem to have any problem believing that White Mountain BCPs grew multiple rings per year. In his book, The Genus Pinus, Mirov states, ‘Apparently a semblance of annual rings is formed after every rather infrequent cloudburst.'

Mirov, N.T., The Genus Pinus, Ronald Press Co., New York, 1967.

 

 

'It is important to understand that the idea that mature trees can grow more than one ring per year is not a highly speculative hypothesis. It is well established that mature trees of many species of both angiosperms and gymnosperms, including other species of the genus Pinus, can grow multiple rings per year, especially under the types of conditions in which some of the BCPs in the White Mountains grow.'

 

 

Glock et al. published a large study in 1960 documenting the common occurrence of multiple ring growth per year, under conditions similar to those in the White Mountains.

Glock W.S., Studhalter, R.A. and Agerter, S.R., Classification and multiplicity of growth layers in the branches of trees, Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections 140(1):1–292, 1960.

 

They found that multiplicity was more than twice as common as annularity, and conclude that probably very few annual increments, over the entire tree, consist of only one growth.

Glock W.S., Studhalter, R.A. and Agerter, S.R., Classification and multiplicity of growth layers in the branches of trees, Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections 140(1): p. 123, 1960

 

 

'researchers must use wood from dead trees to extend the chronology beyond the lifetime of currently living trees. The older parts of the chronology come from dead wood found lying on the ground near the living trees. This means that some pieces of wood in the earliest part of the chronology would have had to lie around on the ground for more than 7,000 years!'

 

 

Thanks Grey...it's been a while since I looked @ this.

 

ps. I like the new avatar.

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Thanks about the pic. . . .  the mug shot didn't do anyone favors.  From what I've read, although some trees do form double rings, this is rare with bristlecones.  They tend to have missing rings altogether, which would give a younger age to the specimen than what it actually is, which is not surprising considering the climatic conditions in the southwest compared to the White Mtns.

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Dendrochronlogist understand that different events effect the accumulation of rings in a tree. The idea that they just count each ring as one year is a faulty view of what they do. It is also a sloppy way for those who want to discredit them to go about things

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Thanks about the pic. . . .  the mug shot didn't do anyone favors.  From what I've read, although some trees do form double rings, this is rare with bristlecones.  They tend to have missing rings altogether, which would give a younger age to the specimen than what it actually is.

 

Did you read my post?

 

Click on the Source document in my last post....it's quite comprehensive. 

 

"although some trees do form double rings, this is rare with bristlecones."

 

I've just provided "cited references" then summarily refute this claim quite demonstrably and say the exact opposite.  :huh:

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Ha!  I had the wrong mountains in mind!  My mistake

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I've done some digging and found some accounts that run counter to the claims of that creation website.  I am not going to argue again about OE/YE creationism, ID etc, and cite opposing sources, however.  I do not think anyone benefits or is convinced by the arguments either way, so I respectfully bow out.

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My suggestion would be to turn to a science source vice a religious one like the one posted.

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shiloh- you've stated this before and at this point is kind of meaningless rhetoric to me. You can accuse me of smorgasbord reasoning all day but you have yet to convince me that I am in error that way.

 

Looking- I should check out the Collins book.

So you do think it is up to man to decide which parts of the Bible are true and which parts are expendable? 

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Collins does not do this, so why do you imply that he does?

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I have never been comfortable telling someone what they can and cannot believe, just reeks too much of arrogance. I have read Dr Collins' The Language of God, and while I don't agree with him on it all he has a clear, concise and coherent point of view. To tell him he cannot hold that view is just going too far.

It's not a matter of me telling people what they can and cannot believe.  It is simply a matter of facts.   The Bible makes no room for evolution.  That is why atheists support evolution  over Genesis.  

 

God's word is above other things, Holy.   By nature it can't be mixed or live at peace with any other idealogy.   You cannot be a Christian and a Wiccan, or be a Christian and a Mormon/Jehovah's Witness.  

 

Evolution is no different the very crux of Evolution is that it absent of any intelligent/divine causality.  Collins may prefer to ignore that aspect of Evolution, but Evolution isn't compatible with a biblical world view.

 

It might be compatible with a "religious" worldview where the Bible can be viewed as a document written by ignorant shepherds who didn't know how the world worked, and so forth, but one cannot maintain a biblical worldview and be an Evolutionist.   The two idealogies can't mix.

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Collins does not do this, so why do you imply that he does?

I don't know what Collins does.  My question was not aimed at Collins.  I was aking Alpha.  I will say that if Collins thinks man evolved from some ape-like ancestor that man has in common with chimps, Collins is wrong and he rejects what God says about man in Genesis 1:27-28.

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shiloh- you've stated this before and at this point is kind of meaningless rhetoric to me. You can accuse me of smorgasbord reasoning all day but you have yet to convince me that I am in error that way.

 

Looking- I should check out the Collins book.

So you do think it is up to man to decide which parts of the Bible are true and which parts are expendable? 

 

No. The truth is what it is, regardless of what we think or how in error we are.

 

1 cor 13:9, 10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

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Well said.

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I've done some digging and found some accounts that run counter to the claims of that creation website.  I am not going to argue again about OE/YE creationism, ID etc, and cite opposing sources, however.  I do not think anyone benefits or is convinced by the arguments either way, so I respectfully bow out.

 

Too funny.

 

You see, I try and protect most people (out of kindness) from self-inflicted wounds.  In this particular case, from Ad Hominem attacks by providing many sub-references that are secular....but alas, it just doesn't work and I don't know why. 

 

The only conclusion I can come up with is when people start reading they see "Creation" or "Bible..." then immediately come to a conclusion without paying attention to detail.

 

So, having said that......are you implying that these Gentlemen/Ladies and their publishers are/were CREATIONISTS??  :huh: :

 

Mirov, N.T., The Genus Pinus, Ronald Press Co., New York, 1967.

 

Glock W.S., Studhalter, R.A. and Agerter, S.R., Classification and multiplicity of growth layers in the branches of trees, Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections 140(1): p. 123, 1960

 

 

"I do not think anyone benefits or is convinced by the arguments either way, so I respectfully bow out."

 

I've also noted this statement a number of times.  IMHO, to minimize or eliminate this "bow out" I would suggest to simply eliminate Baseless Assertions.

 

 

Overall though, "Tree Rings" and there "divined" dates while interesting; are not a threat to the WORD of GOD they fit within the YEC "Window" , IMHO

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You're not one for letting sleeping dogs lie, are you? lol  Always accusing me of making fallacious arguments.  Well I don't really think I did here, not on a person.  I correctly pointed out that the link you provided was a creationist website and references within the article will be seen with that lens.  About which I do not have a problem with; creation and science need not conflict . To my knowledge, I did not make a baseless assertion- - I simply spare others the quotes and source materials and rely on my own words.  I commented in another thread certain things in YEC that I have problems with.  The problem for me as a scientist will always be when we square the evidence to fit a basic assumption.  Whether it is an evolutionist doing this or a YEC advocate, it is counterproductive.  I will leave it at that.  

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I've done some digging and found some accounts that run counter to the claims of that creation website.  I am not going to argue again about OE/YE creationism, ID etc, and cite opposing sources, however.  I do not think anyone benefits or is convinced by the arguments either way, so I respectfully bow out.

 

Too funny.

 

You see, I try and protect most people (out of kindness) from self-inflicted wounds.  In this particular case, from Ad Hominem attacks by providing many sub-references that are secular....but alas, it just doesn't work and I don't know why. 

 

The only conclusion I can come up with is when people start reading they see "Creation" or "Bible..." then immediately come to a conclusion without paying attention to detail.

 

So, having said that......are you implying that these Gentlemen/Ladies and their publishers are/were CREATIONISTS??  :huh: :

 

Mirov, N.T., The Genus Pinus, Ronald Press Co., New York, 1967.

 

Glock W.S., Studhalter, R.A. and Agerter, S.R., Classification and multiplicity of growth layers in the branches of trees, Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections 140(1): p. 123, 1960

 

 

"I do not think anyone benefits or is convinced by the arguments either way, so I respectfully bow out."

 

I've also noted this statement a number of times.  IMHO, to minimize or eliminate this "bow out" I would suggest to simply eliminate Baseless Assertions.

 

 

Overall though, "Tree Rings" and there "divined" dates while interesting; are not a threat to the WORD of GOD they fit within the YEC "Window" , IMHO

 

 

Random quotes taken out of context do not equate to science.

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