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If men got the Titus 2 Treatment…

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If men got the Titus 2 Treatment…

 

Every evangelical woman knows what it’s like to get the Titus 2 Treatment.

 

This happens whenever a woman is presented with a universal statement about the “biblical” role of women in the world, which is typically extrapolated from a single biblical text without regard to literary or historical context and followed by a parenthetical string of additional unrelated and out-of-context Bible verses for support.

 

<snip>

 

So I thought it might be fun to give guys a sense of what it’s like to get the Titus 2 treatment with this little piece. (Don’t take it too seriously):

 

 

The Crisis of Biblical Masculinity in the Church

By Roberta Heard Ellis

 

It has come to my attention that we are facing a crisis of biblical masculinity in the Church today. An increasing number of men are neglecting the roles God clearly outlined for them in Scripture (Genesis 3:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:26, 1 Timothy 2:8) in favor of blatant cultural capitulation.  I’d like to focus on three biblical principles that many modern men, out of total disregard for Scripture, continue to ignore: sweating, kissing, and hand-raising.

 

1.  Sweating:

 

Take a look around our culture and you will see millions of men who earn a living by working in climate controlled office buildings. Such work may be mentally strenuous, but far too often, it can be accomplished without even breaking a sweat.

 

The curse of Genesis 3 clearly describes man’s primary activity as difficult physical labor. “By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground,” God declares in Genesis 3:19.

 

<snip>

 

Now, some men will say they find office work more stimulating and rewarding than manual labor, or that it provides more financial security in their particular situation, but these men are more interested in pursuing selfish ambitions and wealth than submitting themselves to the Word of God. Our culture’s rampant obesity epidemic among men can be clearly traced to this departure from God’s perfect design. And it threatens to undo our whole society, negatively affecting our children and generations to come.

 

2.  Kissing

 

It may surprise many men to learn that one of the most common instructions found in New Testament Scripture is for Christians to “greet one another with holy kiss” (Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 16:20, 11 Corinthians 13:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:26, 1 Peter 5:14). In 1 Thessalonians 5:26, Paul specifically instructs men to do this.

 

Yet despite the fact that this is one of the most repeated directives of Scripture, one is hard-pressed to find men kissing one another on the cheeck in churches today.  This is because those who do not take the Bible seriously claim these clear teachings of Scripture have a “cultural” component.

 

<snip>

 

3.  Hand-Raising 

 

I Timothy 2 stipulates the responsibilities of men and women in worship.

 

Thankfully, 1 Timothy 2:12—“I do not permit a woman to assume authority over a man”—continues to be rigidly applied in many churches today without regard to its original context or intended audience. However, the instructions 1 Timothy 2:8—“I want men EVERYWHERE to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing” (emphasis mine) is taken as a sort of suggestion that need not be directly enforced in the modern church.

 

Often I have been to churches where women are properly silenced, but men do not even bother to lift their hands during prayer! Furthermore, some of these men are known to engage in public disputes around theology—often on their blogs—which this passage clearly condemns.

 

Read here for the full writing

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From the article:

 

 

So men who wish to honor God with their lives and humbly submit to His will should make physical labor their primary occupation, and resist the urge to give in to our culture’s glorification of “white collar” work, which is a departure from biblical principles of masculinity.

 

:24:

 

Really? In a 21st century industrial society that is completely unlike anything in Biblical times? Granted, fallen human nature has not changed. Submitting to God's will for your life does not mean automatically becoming a plumber or mechanic. Its about being available to be what and where He wants you to be. Writer's really far off on that one, and I happen to be a mechanic!

 

Men should be the leaders and priests of their homes and too often they are not. They shun leadership positions in life and the church, and that's just wrong, but the solution doesn't begin with digging ditches -- though if that's where God wants me, then pass the pickaxe.

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From the article:

 

So men who wish to honor God with their lives and humbly submit to His will should make physical labor their primary occupation, and resist the urge to give in to our culture’s glorification of “white collar” work, which is a departure from biblical principles of masculinity.

 

:24:

 

Really? In a 21st century industrial society that is completely unlike anything in Biblical times?

 

The author admits she is using satyr to make a point.

 

"So I thought it might be fun to give guys a sense of what it’s like to get the Titus 2 treatment with this little piece. (Don’t take it too seriously):"

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From the article:

 

So men who wish to honor God with their lives and humbly submit to His will should make physical labor their primary occupation, and resist the urge to give in to our culture’s glorification of “white collar” work, which is a departure from biblical principles of masculinity.

 

:24:

 

Really? In a 21st century industrial society that is completely unlike anything in Biblical times?

 

The author admits she is using satyr to make a point.

 

"So I thought it might be fun to give guys a sense of what it’s like to get the Titus 2 treatment with this little piece. (Don’t take it too seriously):"

 

:thumbsup:

 

:24: :24: :24:

 

~

 

Raise Your Hands

 

Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. Colossians 3:19

 

If You're

 

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Ephesians 5:25

 

Sure

 

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36-26

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Very thought-provoking, the article's asking the question, why are some groups seemingly held to the letter of the law by some, and some only to the spirit of it? I've heard of women being condemned for wearing pants and having short hair, but I've never heard a man condemned for having a white collar job or not greeting with a kiss.

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Very thought-provoking, the article's asking the question, why are some groups seemingly held to the letter of the law by some, and some only to the spirit of it? I've heard of women being condemned for wearing pants and having short hair, but I've never heard a man condemned for having a white collar job or not greeting with a kiss.

I have seen men attacked for wearing a dress and having long hair.  If a man tried to kiss another guy today, he would get punched because the other person would think he was gay.  The scripture about earning a living by the sweat of the brow was part of the curse.  I haven't had the luxury of working in a white collar job.  I would say the "holy kiss" teaching would be the hardest to start up, as hand shakes have taken their place.  How about taking a little wine for your stomach's sake?  I guess we have advanced past that with the creation of Alka Seltzer. 

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oh no...I still prefer wine....actually, I take those tums things if my little tummy does a tumble

 

Christians are just hilarious arent' they?

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oh no...I still prefer wine....actually, I take those tums things if my little tummy does a tumble

 

Christians are just hilarious arent' they?

Years ago, I used Di-Gel, but they changed the formula and it doesn't work very good now.  I switched to Alka Seltzer.  There is nothing like it for a sick headache or old fashioned heart burn.  It is nice to see you Sevenseas, and I am glad you brought this up, because I was thinking about the very issue of wine today.  Notice what Paul said to Timothy.

 

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thine often infirmities.  1 Timothy 1:24

 

I had skimmed over that verse in the past, and just looked at it as a primitive treatment for an upset stomach, but notice that he also tells him he is to use it for his "often infirmities."  We know that many believe wine, in moderation of course, is good for you.  I wonder if we overlook something here, and perhaps "a little wine" is actually something we should partake of for the sake of good health?  Just something to think about. 

 

BTW, part of the curse in Genesis said women would have pain in child bearing.  Surely nobody thinks it is wrong for women to use medicine to ease their pain? 

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When I was a kid...during the last century, I used to drink my dad's Alka Seltzer because I was and still am a Fizz-a-holic.  Gotta have me those burning bubbles

 

Of course when he needed it, he would find less then when last used.  Yes, I was a prime suspect.  Mind you, I never had an upset stomach during those years.  :rofl:

 

I'm one of those people who believe that Jesus did, actually, turn the water into wine and not grape juice with 0% alcohol as some teach.

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When I was a kid...during the last century, I used to drink my dad's Alka Seltzer because I was and still am a Fizz-a-holic.  Gotta have me those burning bubbles

 

Of course when he needed it, he would find less then when last used.  Yes, I was a prime suspect.  Mind you, I never had an upset stomach during those years.  :rofl:

 

I'm one of those people who believe that Jesus did, actually, turn the water into wine and not grape juice with 0% alcohol as some teach.

I actually like the taste of Alka Seltzer too, and got to where I started drinking Seltzer water when I didn't need the stomach remedy. 

 

Those would be fighting words for a lot of people, saying you believe Jesus turned the water into real wine with alcohol, but I completely agree with you.  At the wedding feast, they mentioned how at most weddings, they will serve the good wine first, and when people had been drinking a while, the lesser quality wine.  That only makes sense if it was fermented.  I am glad we can find common ground on something, even if it is something as trivial as liking Alka Seltzer and believing Jesus turned water into real wine. 

 

What are your thoughts on the potential health benefits of a small amount of wine?  I can't remember all the details of the article, so you might want to look into it yourself if you even find the subject interesting, but there had been a study of wine and a reduction in heart disease.  In the study I read, if you were to drink wine in small amounts, where your blood alcohol level was between .02 and .04, supposedly it reduced heart disease, but if you drank wine more heavily, it had no positive effects.  I think there was also positive effects for those who drank wine where the alcohol had been removed.  I couldn't tell you how they do that, but there is some way to take the alcohol out of fermented wine.  Given the scripture, do you think there could be benefits to drinking small amounts of wine every once in a while with meals or just having a glass now and then? 

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heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points.

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heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points.

What were the excellent points?  I thought the article was silly for the most part.  First we have that about men earning a living by the sweat of the brow.  It is not a commandment that men sweat while they work, but a curse, neither is God commanding that women have to be in pain while in labor.  When it says the husband shall rule over his wife, that is also because of the curse.  The woman was given as a help meet, and the husband was always the head, but the difference since the curse is strife that didn't originally exist, requiring him to actually take authority over his wife.  God the Father is the head of Jesus Christ, but he doesn't have to rule over him because they have perfect unity.  A curse is not a commandment.

 

The scripture about greeting with a holy kiss is just telling people, (I am assuming men and women), to give a courteous greeting to each other, and that was the normal practice at the time.  They still do this in some place.  I believe that even the Beechy Amish do it today.  I have to problem with reviving the custom if people want to.  Just don't catch them off guard with it or you might get punched int he nose. 

 

Being Pentecostal, I have been in the habit of raising my hand in praise to God, and I see men and women do this all the time.  I do that going down the highway sometimes.  I am not sure what church this person goes to if the men don't do it but the women do. 

 

The article did give me one thing to consider, and that is to look deeper at the teachings we may overlook, and to try to determine how they can be applied today.  I sweat all the time on my job, but I suppose if I wanted to sweat as a white collar guy, I could have casual business meetings in a steam room.  And that about women keeping silent is dealing with not being disruptive asking questions about what is being taught. It isn't saying women can't give testimonies or sing or praise the Lord openly.  It is not so much a custom as saying not to be disruptive. 

 

I don't know who this Roberta Ellis is, but it just comes across to me like she has resentment over things being taught concerning women, and she is trying to say that men don't follow certain things so they are somehow being hypocritical.  Even if she is right, say with something like the holy kiss, which I would think applies to women too, that wouldn't make null and void a single scripture.  It would only mean we have work to do in following other scriptures we are neglecting.  I immediately thought about taking a little wine for our stomach's sake.  Should we start making a point to do that?  Who knows what other nuggets of truth are in the Bible we are overlooking? 

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heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points.

 

Thanks!

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When I was a kid...during the last century, I used to drink my dad's Alka Seltzer because I was and still am a Fizz-a-holic.  Gotta have me those burning bubbles

 

Of course when he needed it, he would find less then when last used.  Yes, I was a prime suspect.  Mind you, I never had an upset stomach during those years.  :rofl:

 

I'm one of those people who believe that Jesus did, actually, turn the water into wine and not grape juice with 0% alcohol as some teach.

I actually like the taste of Alka Seltzer too, and got to where I started drinking Seltzer water when I didn't need the stomach remedy. 

 

Those would be fighting words for a lot of people, saying you believe Jesus turned the water into real wine with alcohol, but I completely agree with you.  At the wedding feast, they mentioned how at most weddings, they will serve the good wine first, and when people had been drinking a while, the lesser quality wine.  That only makes sense if it was fermented.  I am glad we can find common ground on something, even if it is something as trivial as liking Alka Seltzer and believing Jesus turned water into real wine. 

 

What are your thoughts on the potential health benefits of a small amount of wine?  I can't remember all the details of the article, so you might want to look into it yourself if you even find the subject interesting, but there had been a study of wine and a reduction in heart disease.  In the study I read, if you were to drink wine in small amounts, where your blood alcohol level was between .02 and .04, supposedly it reduced heart disease, but if you drank wine more heavily, it had no positive effects.  I think there was also positive effects for those who drank wine where the alcohol had been removed.  I couldn't tell you how they do that, but there is some way to take the alcohol out of fermented wine.  Given the scripture, do you think there could be benefits to drinking small amounts of wine every once in a while with meals or just having a glass now and then? 

 

 

 

Well, I like Club Soda which has no taste but blows fizz up your nose haha...like I said, love the bubbles

 

Anyhows,  the church I grew up in had real wine at the communion service but if you objected to that, they had juice for you.  In my case it is also cultural.  I am first generation Canadian,

so, my family, being European as in German, Swiss and most likely some Austrian, thought nothing of serving wine with a meal...kids got a little with either cranberry juice or ginger ale.  It

was nothing but another beverage, albeit one that may cause consternation in some circles.  No one in my family ever had an alcohol problem and no one ever thought it was a sin to have

wine or brandy or whatever, but we do not get drunk and personally, I can take it or leave it but will have some from time to time.

 

I have observed that a person having wine or whatever is not usually the catalist for causing strife and division in church...that activity is served up with gossipers, backstabbers, busy bodies

and the like.  Frankly, and we may part company here, I would rather share a bottle of wine with an unconverted person then share a juicy story with a Christian.  Yes, I do feel strongly

about those who gossip having been the target of such on more than one occasion.

 

Getting back to the wine, I believe (if I remember correctly) it is something in the grape itself...and I think I also read or heard something about extracting that substance and creating some sort

of capsule one could take. Wouldn't that take the fun out of it though....LOL!

 

I guess I just have a laissez-faire attitude that would startle some Christians...it's how I grew up.  Maybe you will agree that it not being a forbidden thing to me, it has no allure or does not cause

me any consternation should I decide to have a glass?  You know how it is...the moment you tell someone they cannot do it, they want to do it.  :grin:

 

I also grew up in the province of Quebec and wine is part of culture there.  

 

yeah no worries with the health article...which you may have already guessed reading the above..I am really a coffee drinker...whether or not that is beneficial...you may know the 'experts'

tend to flip flop on that one.

 

Given Paul's advice to Timothy, I agree...vermouth is actually pretty good for the tummy

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Thanks Sevenseas for your honest answer and it is nice to have a pleasant conversation for a change.  I actually agree with you about gossip being much more of a problem in the church than drinking a glass of wine.  The wine is only a problem if you wind up with a church full of drunks.  The gossip will destroy lives and split churches.  I have seen it first hand. 

 

Subjects like this will cause me problems in the conservative churches because I don't tow the conservative line if I think they are wrong, and I have never believed wine in the Bible was anything but alcohol.  Now I don't believe Jesus ever sinned by getting drunk, nor do I believe any of the disciples did so, but I do believe they drank wine as a beverage, like we would drink a Pepsi Cola.  It was never about getting drunk.  I just try to follow scripture as best I can, and if that means being an old line conservative sometimes and coming across as liberal in other instances, so be it. 

 

Have a nice night.  I would have a glass of wine with you, but I have to drive in early in the morning to make a delivery, so I will stick with coffee.  It doesn't do anything for my stomach, but it does help me keep going down the road.  I have a bit of a nervous stomach now, so I have an excuse for some of that plop plop fizz fizz.  I  need to find some ice cold water.  It works better that way. 

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IMHO:

Interesting how much Bible is ignored or rejected because it advocates something not politically correct.

 

Vague objections (to clear Bible-teaching readily understandable) are put forth, like:

 

"typically extrapolated from a single biblical text without regard to literary or historical context and followed by a parenthetical string of additional unrelated and out-of-context Bible verses for support."

 

Just a wave of the hand to justify disobedience.  A little shuckin & jivin.

 

As to perspiring (hey now, it is against the rules to use explicit language here), the curse was lifted after the flood.

 

Ethics is hierarchical in the Bible. A man is not to gross out another man in a society where men kissing men is loathsome.  Now Russia is another matter.

 

Now let me tell you that there was this huge mob of persons gathered at the Pearly Gates, seeking entrance.  St. Pete came forth & told the mob:

Now I want all you men who were forced by your wives to do their will to go to my left.  All the men who did what they wanted, go to my right.

 

There was considerable hubbub & dust raised.  But when it was over every single man except one little schnook man was on the left, & schnook was on the right. 

 

St Pete said to him, "Why are you on the right?"

Schnook: "I don't know, but my wife told me to stand here."

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oh no...I still prefer wine....actually, I take those tums things if my little tummy does a tumble

 

Christians are just hilarious arent' they?

Years ago, I used Di-Gel, but they changed the formula and it doesn't work very good now.  I switched to Alka Seltzer.  There is nothing like it for a sick headache or old fashioned heart burn.  It is nice to see you Sevenseas, and I am glad you brought this up, because I was thinking about the very issue of wine today.  Notice what Paul said to Timothy.

 

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thine often infirmities.  1 Timothy 1:24

 

I had skimmed over that verse in the past, and just looked at it as a primitive treatment for an upset stomach, but notice that he also tells him he is to use it for his "often infirmities."  We know that many believe wine, in moderation of course, is good for you.  I wonder if we overlook something here, and perhaps "a little wine" is actually something we should partake of for the sake of good health?  Just something to think about. 

 

BTW, part of the curse in Genesis said women would have pain in child bearing.  Surely nobody thinks it is wrong for women to use medicine to ease their pain? 

 

Some have infirmities oft indeed.

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heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points.

What were the excellent points?  I thought the article was silly for the most part.  First we have that about men earning a living by the sweat of the brow.  It is not a commandment that men sweat while they work, but a curse, neither is God commanding that women have to be in pain while in labor.  When it says the husband shall rule over his wife, that is also because of the curse.  The woman was given as a help meet, and the husband was always the head, but the difference since the curse is strife that didn't originally exist, requiring him to actually take authority over his wife.  God the Father is the head of Jesus Christ, but he doesn't have to rule over him because they have perfect unity.  A curse is not a commandment.

 

The scripture about greeting with a holy kiss is just telling people, (I am assuming men and women), to give a courteous greeting to each other, and that was the normal practice at the time.  They still do this in some place.  I believe that even the Beechy Amish do it today.  I have to problem with reviving the custom if people want to.  Just don't catch them off guard with it or you might get punched int he nose. 

 

Being Pentecostal, I have been in the habit of raising my hand in praise to God, and I see men and women do this all the time.  I do that going down the highway sometimes.  I am not sure what church this person goes to if the men don't do it but the women do. 

 

The article did give me one thing to consider, and that is to look deeper at the teachings we may overlook, and to try to determine how they can be applied today.  I sweat all the time on my job, but I suppose if I wanted to sweat as a white collar guy, I could have casual business meetings in a steam room.  And that about women keeping silent is dealing with not being disruptive asking questions about what is being taught. It isn't saying women can't give testimonies or sing or praise the Lord openly.  It is not so much a custom as saying not to be disruptive. 

 

I don't know who this Roberta Ellis is, but it just comes across to me like she has resentment over things being taught concerning women, and she is trying to say that men don't follow certain things so they are somehow being hypocritical.  Even if she is right, say with something like the holy kiss, which I would think applies to women too, that wouldn't make null and void a single scripture.  It would only mean we have work to do in following other scriptures we are neglecting.  I immediately thought about taking a little wine for our stomach's sake.  Should we start making a point to do that?  Who knows what other nuggets of truth are in the Bible we are overlooking? 

 

 

well it brings out that as men, we do often expect things from women, without giving them the same respect in return. For example, my smart alec comment earlier about women belonging in the kitchen-while it was a joke, how often do we as men, expect women to fit this perfect model of what we think they should be-and as christians, we expect them to hold themselves to certain verses be it titus 2, or the wifes submit to your husbands, while failing to hold ourselves to the same standards-we ignore the verse before the wifes submit to your husbands that tell husbands to cherish their wives. We dont follow the "greet one another with a holy kiss"  

 

Now Im not suggesting that we greet one another with a holy kiss, thats obviously a cultural thing, but, the article does point out the hypocrisy. Lets look at the point about women assuming authority over men. Well, we have churches today with women pastors-some with female elders. Is this Biblical? no. but my question is, where are the men? That women, is in that position 9 times out of ten, because no  Godly men stood up and took it. men refused to do the role, leaving a hole, and a women took it. How can we blame the women there for not doing their job, when the men of that church arnt doing theres?

 

The article, basically is getting across its a two way street-if we expect women to follow the Biblical model for them, we as men need to follow our role. yes it was humourous-but it drives home a good point. 

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As to perspiring (hey now, it is against the rules to use explicit language here), the curse was lifted after the flood.

Where do you see this mentioned in Scripture?

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As to perspiring (hey now, it is against the rules to use explicit language here), the curse was lifted after the flood.

Where do you see this mentioned in Scripture?

 

 

Where in scripture?

Why Titus 2, of course!

Just kidding.

 

It is in the start of the blessed Noahic Covenant of Gen 9

 

" And Noah builded an altar unto Jehovah, and took of every clean beast, and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar.  21 And Jehovah smelled the sweet savor; and Jehovah said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s  sake, for that the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done.  22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

 

Hold on thar, it shud say "the imagination of woman's heart is evil from her youth!"

 

But setting that aside,

Let us lift up the voice & sing:

 

Q

Summer and winter, and springtime and harvest,

Sun, moon and stars in their courses above,

Join with all nature in manifold witness

To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love.

 

Chorus:

Great is Thy faithfulness!” “Great is Thy faithfulness!“

  Morning by morning new mercies I see;

All I have needed Thy hand hath provided—

  “Great is Thy faithfulness,” Lord, unto me!

unQ

 

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IMHO:

Interesting how much Bible is ignored or rejected because it advocates something not politically correct.

 

Vague objections (to clear Bible-teaching readily understandable) are put forth, like:

 

"typically extrapolated from a single biblical text without regard to literary or historical context and followed by a parenthetical string of additional unrelated and out-of-context Bible verses for support."

 

Just a wave of the hand to justify disobedience.  A little shuckin & jivin.

 

As to perspiring (hey now, it is against the rules to use explicit language here), the curse was lifted after the flood.

 

Ethics is hierarchical in the Bible. A man is not to gross out another man in a society where men kissing men is loathsome.  Now Russia is another matter.

 

Now let me tell you that there was this huge mob of persons gathered at the Pearly Gates, seeking entrance.  St. Pete came forth & told the mob:

Now I want all you men who were forced by your wives to do their will to go to my left.  All the men who did what they wanted, go to my right.

 

There was considerable hubbub & dust raised.  But when it was over every single man except one little schnook man was on the left, & schnook was on the right. 

 

St Pete said to him, "Why are you on the right?"

Schnook: "I don't know, but my wife told me to stand here."

If the curse was lifted as you claim, people wouldn't die, women wouldn't have pain in child bearing, and men wouldn't have to earn a living by the sweat of their brow.  The curse continues to effect this world and everything in it.  It is taught in the New Testament that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.  The New Testament uses the example of Abraham and Sarah, and how Sarah called Abraham Lord. 

 

I really don't believe there is any need to return to the custom of kissing each other, but there are churches that still practice it.  To me, a handshake is fine, and all of this is just the work of a woman who got an attitude because of things being taught about women she doesn't like.  You can't make one thing null and void by showing that people are ignoring other scriptures.  It doesn't work that way. 

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heresy! get back to the kitchen! lol just kidding. I enjoyed the article, made some excellent points.

What were the excellent points?  I thought the article was silly for the most part.  First we have that about men earning a living by the sweat of the brow.  It is not a commandment that men sweat while they work, but a curse, neither is God commanding that women have to be in pain while in labor.  When it says the husband shall rule over his wife, that is also because of the curse.  The woman was given as a help meet, and the husband was always the head, but the difference since the curse is strife that didn't originally exist, requiring him to actually take authority over his wife.  God the Father is the head of Jesus Christ, but he doesn't have to rule over him because they have perfect unity.  A curse is not a commandment.

 

The scripture about greeting with a holy kiss is just telling people, (I am assuming men and women), to give a courteous greeting to each other, and that was the normal practice at the time.  They still do this in some place.  I believe that even the Beechy Amish do it today.  I have to problem with reviving the custom if people want to.  Just don't catch them off guard with it or you might get punched int he nose. 

 

Being Pentecostal, I have been in the habit of raising my hand in praise to God, and I see men and women do this all the time.  I do that going down the highway sometimes.  I am not sure what church this person goes to if the men don't do it but the women do. 

 

The article did give me one thing to consider, and that is to look deeper at the teachings we may overlook, and to try to determine how they can be applied today.  I sweat all the time on my job, but I suppose if I wanted to sweat as a white collar guy, I could have casual business meetings in a steam room.  And that about women keeping silent is dealing with not being disruptive asking questions about what is being taught. It isn't saying women can't give testimonies or sing or praise the Lord openly.  It is not so much a custom as saying not to be disruptive. 

 

I don't know who this Roberta Ellis is, but it just comes across to me like she has resentment over things being taught concerning women, and she is trying to say that men don't follow certain things so they are somehow being hypocritical.  Even if she is right, say with something like the holy kiss, which I would think applies to women too, that wouldn't make null and void a single scripture.  It would only mean we have work to do in following other scriptures we are neglecting.  I immediately thought about taking a little wine for our stomach's sake.  Should we start making a point to do that?  Who knows what other nuggets of truth are in the Bible we are overlooking? 

 

 

well it brings out that as men, we do often expect things from women, without giving them the same respect in return. For example, my smart alec comment earlier about women belonging in the kitchen-while it was a joke, how often do we as men, expect women to fit this perfect model of what we think they should be-and as christians, we expect them to hold themselves to certain verses be it titus 2, or the wifes submit to your husbands, while failing to hold ourselves to the same standards-we ignore the verse before the wifes submit to your husbands that tell husbands to cherish their wives. We dont follow the "greet one another with a holy kiss"  

 

Now Im not suggesting that we greet one another with a holy kiss, thats obviously a cultural thing, but, the article does point out the hypocrisy. Lets look at the point about women assuming authority over men. Well, we have churches today with women pastors-some with female elders. Is this Biblical? no. but my question is, where are the men? That women, is in that position 9 times out of ten, because no  Godly men stood up and took it. men refused to do the role, leaving a hole, and a women took it. How can we blame the women there for not doing their job, when the men of that church arnt doing theres?

 

The article, basically is getting across its a two way street-if we expect women to follow the Biblical model for them, we as men need to follow our role. yes it was humourous-but it drives home a good point. 

 

I just don't see how society really does expect more from women than men when it comes to following scripture.  In reality, I would say that more is expected of men than women when it comes to following scripture.  The majority of women don't submit to their husbands as unto the Lord.  Some do, but not the majority.  How many women follow the example of Sarah, calling their husbands Lord?   I would say there are more women ignoring scripture on obedience than there are men who don't love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it.  There was one woman who came in here earlier talking about how women are condemned for wearing pants and having short hair.  There are some of us that point out they are disobeying scripture, but that is nothing in comparison to how men are looked at if they have long hair and wear a dress.  Christian women in the organization "Concerned Women For America" have raised money off of a book called "Jesse's Dream Skirt," because it has a little boy wearing a skirt, and they say that is promoting men dressing like women. 

 

You raise an interesting point about why women sometimes do hold positions in the church they aren't Biblically qualified for.  I can't disagree with you there, if there is no qualified men to hold those positions.  I would also point out that sometimes there are no men that are really qualified be a Deacon or Bishop in those positions.  That doesn't make the scriptures of none effect, but it kind of comes under the category of the ox falling in the pit on the Sabbath day and David eating the show bread.  Those things were not technically lawful, but there are instances where the people had no choice but to violate them.  We should never ignore God's laws, but sometimes there is no choice but to do something that is technically unlawful. 

 

I believe there is a double standard that exists in the church, and in society for that matter, but it favors women, not men.  When it comes to the work place, it is acceptable in society that women have a choice to work, or be a home maker or full time Mother.  Men who don't work are looked at as dead beats.  They don't have the same luxury.  I read this kind of stuff and I am thinking, the people who have it made and have the most choices and the least persecution when it comes to doing virtually anything they want complain the most because of some criticism they face from a relatively small number of people that actually hold to the Bible.  Most will ignore scripture and say nothing about anything women do for fear of backlash.  You would be surprised how many ministers I have talked to in the past about the double standard with regard to clothing that agreed with me, but were scared to preach on clothes because of offending women.  I had a guy from a Christian Book store who had tracts on the subject, and agreed with me, but he only kept them for people who requested them, rather than put them on the shelf because it might offend some of the female customers.  You can make the case that men don't step up to the plate and fill all the roles they should, and you can make the case there are men who aren't following their head, which is Jesus Christ, by following scripture as they should, but women have absolutely nothing to complain about in this society.  Men have far more reason to have an attitude than women, about what is expected of them, with little in return.

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As to perspiring (hey now, it is against the rules to use explicit language here), the curse was lifted after the flood.

Where do you see this mentioned in Scripture?

 

 

Where in scripture?

Why Titus 2, of course!

Just kidding.

 

It is in the start of the blessed Noahic Covenant of Gen 9

 

" And Noah builded an altar unto Jehovah, and took of every clean beast, and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar.  21 And Jehovah smelled the sweet savor; and Jehovah said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s  sake, for that the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done.  22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

 

Hold on thar, it shud say "the imagination of woman's heart is evil from her youth!"

 

But setting that aside,

Let us lift up the voice & sing:

 

Q

Summer and winter, and springtime and harvest,

Sun, moon and stars in their courses above,

Join with all nature in manifold witness

To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love.

 

Chorus:

Great is Thy faithfulness!” “Great is Thy faithfulness!“

  Morning by morning new mercies I see;

All I have needed Thy hand hath provided—

  “Great is Thy faithfulness,” Lord, unto me!

unQ

 

 

He didn't curse the ground again anymore, but the Genesis curse wasn't removed.  I wish it was.  I wouldn't have to work so hard, and would never have to worry about aging and dying.  I wish women didn't have pain in child bearing.  I wish everything was restored to the conditions that existed in the garden of Eden, for everyone's sake, but its not.  No new curses were added to the original.  God never said he was removing any curses. 

 

There is one possibility I could consider.  It is possible that growing crops was harder from the time of the first sin to the time of the flood.  I have thought about that, but besides that, nothing has changed, and I don't know that anything changed there either.  It is just something I have wondered about. 

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How many women follow the example of Sarah, calling their husbands Lord?   I would say there are more women ignoring scripture on obedience than there are men who don't love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it.

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Thanks Sevenseas for your honest answer and it is nice to have a pleasant conversation for a change.  I actually agree with you about gossip being much more of a problem in the church than drinking a glass of wine.  The wine is only a problem if you wind up with a church full of drunks.  The gossip will destroy lives and split churches.  I have seen it first hand. 

 

Subjects like this will cause me problems in the conservative churches because I don't tow the conservative line if I think they are wrong, and I have never believed wine in the Bible was anything but alcohol.  Now I don't believe Jesus ever sinned by getting drunk, nor do I believe any of the disciples did so, but I do believe they drank wine as a beverage, like we would drink a Pepsi Cola.  It was never about getting drunk.  I just try to follow scripture as best I can, and if that means being an old line conservative sometimes and coming across as liberal in other instances, so be it. 

 

Have a nice night.  I would have a glass of wine with you, but I have to drive in early in the morning to make a delivery, so I will stick with coffee.  It doesn't do anything for my stomach, but it does help me keep going down the road.  I have a bit of a nervous stomach now, so I have an excuse for some of that plop plop fizz fizz.  I  need to find some ice cold water.  It works better that way. 

 

 

well as you know, and yes it is nice to have a pleasant exchange....we do have people getting drunk in the OT with bad results...

 

LOL!  I have not had wine in a coons age...had a little brandy at Christmas...but you can take some if you like

 

I hear you on the coffee but water is prob the best thing for us  

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