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What meaneth these things?

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#1
JohnDB

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Romans 15:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.
27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things.

 

Romans 11:16-26 (NKJV)
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

 

Romans 9:1-13 (NKJV)
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart**, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

** Deuteronomy 10:16 As far back as then... so Romans 9:6 divides Israel in two (spirit / physical) picked up in Romans 11:16-26 natural branches that remain and natural branches cut off) calling those in the Olive Tree (grafted in as well) "All Israel" does it not?

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NKJV)
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Is the "Israel of God" just the believing Jews? If so, then why in the same book...

 

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

Philippians 3:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

 

John 4:21-24 (NKJV)
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

If these things do not lead one to the obvious conclusions then please explain why and how.

 

 

 

 

 



#2
FresnoJoe

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Romans 15:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.
27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things.

 

Romans 11:16-26 (NKJV)
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

 

Romans 9:1-13 (NKJV)
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart**, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

** Deuteronomy 10:16 As far back as then... so Romans 9:6 divides Israel in two (spirit / physical) picked up in Romans 11:16-26 natural branches that remain and natural branches cut off) calling those in the Olive Tree (grafted in as well) "All Israel" does it not?

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NKJV)
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Is the "Israel of God" just the believing Jews? If so, then why in the same book...

 

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

Philippians 3:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

 

John 4:21-24 (NKJV)
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

If these things do not lead one to the obvious conclusions then please explain why and how.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Obvious Conclusion

 

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
 

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
 

Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:31-37

 

By Jesus

 

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26



#3
shiloh357

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You are really good stringing verses and passages together from different contexts and forcing them to address an issue they were never meant to address.  When Paul refers to the "Israel of God."  He is talking about Jewish believers, the remnant in Israel that put faith in Jesus. 

 

The Bible doesn't spiritualize the terms "Jew" or "Israel."   Everytime those words are used they are ONLY ever referring to physical Jews, not Gentile beleivers.

 

Romans 2:28 is not talking about Gentile believers.  It is talking about Jews being circumcized in their heart.  Romans 2:28-29 is telling Jews what it means to be a real Jew. 

 

Romans 9:6 is talking about the remnant.   That true Israel is comprised of the Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.  In God's eyes, from a theological standpoint, it is not enough to simply be a member of the physical nation of Israel.  The true Israel were Jewish believers.



#4
nebula

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Romans 15:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.
27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things.


Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(Jer. 31)


The Gentiles are partakers of the NEW Covenant, not the Old one.

 

Romans 11:16-26 (NKJV)
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

 

Notice this from vs. 17: were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root

Notice vs. 24: how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

The Olive Tree is not "Israel".

 

I found a resource that explains this perfectly:

http://www.mountainr...symbolize.shtml

 

It is quite evident from the scriptures, as well as nature itself, that the root of a tree is its support system, and not vice versa (verse 18). So that the branches grafted in cannot boast against the branches broken off, as the root is the reason that they thrive there. So there is no reason for pride of the Gentiles in any idea that as Christians come into the Covenbant and stand by their own merit. For the Root represents Christ (Isaiah 53:2; Romans 15:8-12; Colossians 2:6-7; Revelation 5:5), the source of God's fulfillment of the Covenant in the Promised blessings to Israel. It is the Root (Christ) through whom the tree receives the sustenance of life. In this portrait, we have to understand that without the Messiah as the Root through whom comes the fatness, all believers (both Jew and Gentile) would be disassociated from Israel and the Covenant. That's how the Olive tree represents God's Covenanted people. Not is them, but represents them. Just as the Holy Temple represents God's people, this tree is a token of God's anointed people. And from comparing scripture with scripture, we learn from God's cryptic illustrations of the Olive Tree that:

 

    #1. The Olive Tree symbolizes one Covenanted congregation of God, not two.
    #2. From branches being Grafted in the Olive Tree, it cannot be the nation of Israel.
    #3. The Olive Tree cannot possibly be spiritual, unreproveable, Israel.
    #4. Contrary to Greek mythology, the Olive Tree does not symbolize peace or fertility.

 

So What does the Olive Tree symbolize? Look again at verse seventeen: "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild Olive Tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the Olive Tree..." Clearly the wild Olive Tree symbolizes the children of the nations of the world who were not God's Covenanted people, coming in to the Covenant relationship "with the Jews." Even as it was prophesied or written before, which is exactly what verses 26 and 27 declare. God uses this Olive tree to illustrate that the Promise of a Deliverer to Israel is fulfilled, and point blank says, for this is My Covenant with them:

 

Romans 11:26-27

  • "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

  • For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

It was long ago prophesied that the Messiah would come and take away the sins of Israel, and God is declaring that's what this Covenant Tree symbolizes. These are God's Covenanted people, Jew and Gentile alike, fulfilling that prophesy. So the Olive Tree can neither represent the political nation of Israel, nor the New Testament Church. It signifies the Covenanted people of the congregation of Israel, made up of both Jew and Gentile.
 

Romans 2:28-29

  • "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

  • But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Not as though the word of God has been made of no effect by this, because in God's eyes they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. No Israel is Israel by flesh or heredity, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Jew or Gentile, they are all the Israel of God through the Promised Deliverer. So despite the irrational denials and much rhetoric about this idea being "Replacement Theology," it is clear that Gentiles are grafted in among them, and enjoy the fatness with them, through the sustenance of the Root. The Gentiles don't replace Covenant Israel, they join with the Jews within Covenant Israel. Unambiguously, God does not separate the Jews and the Gentiles into two distinct or separate Covenanted congregations. The Gentiles come into this very same Covenanted relationship with God "among" the Jews. In part, some branches are cut off from the Covenant in their unbelief and are separated from the Olive Tree or Covenant. And thus they are no more in a Covenant Israel relationship with God than anyone else in the world. And Romans chapter eleven continues with this theme of God's complete sovereignty in deciding who He will have as the Covenanted Israel of God. In other words, the remnant people for whom the Promises actually pertained.

 

 

Romans 9:1-13 (NKJV)
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

Who is not Israel? The Jews who rejected Messiah Yeshua (Jesus).

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart**, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
 
** Deuteronomy 10:16 As far back as then... so Romans 9:6 divides Israel in two (spirit / physical) picked up in Romans 11:16-26 natural branches that remain and natural branches cut off) calling those in the Olive Tree (grafted in as well) "All Israel" does it not?

 

There is a division between the nation of the Jews and the remnant of the Jews who entered into the new covenant.

 

This has nothing to do with the Gentiles.

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NKJV)
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
 
Is the "Israel of God" just the believing Jews? If so, then why in the same book...
 
 
Galatians 3:24-28 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

From the above source:

 

In Romans chapter eleven God is referencing Old Testament scriptures concerning a Covenantal analogy that would be known by those comparing scripture with scripture. The wording "so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God" points to Christ the Deliverer out of Zion prophesied to save Israel. This is the analogy of the Covenant Tree of Israel. And from this illustration in Romans we see that there is not a new Israel, nor a separated Israel, as it is the exact same Covenanted congregation. It merely has more of an inclusion of the Gentiles. And we must be clear on what this imagery represents before we can have any chance of truly understanding what is being said here about the Olive Tree as the one people of God, and the true Israel of God. For there is the distinction seen here between the natural Olive Tree branches, which are the Jewish people, who are originally Covenant Israel. And the wild Olive Tree branches, which are the people of the Gentile nations who now become Covenanted children of God also. That those which were not originally His Covenanted people, are now brought into God's Covenant relationship with Israel. Once separated as foreigners from Israel, they now become children of God and heirs of that same Covenant with Israel.
 

Galatians 3:26-29

  • "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

  • For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

  • There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

  • And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the Promise."


Jew and Gentile are now one family, made one body, become branches of this one Covenant Israel that is represented by the Olive Tree. And God anticipates the obvious objection (Romans 11:1 that some will erroneously think that this would mean that the Promise to Israel of a New Covenant and an everlasting inheritance has been abrogated. God forbid! But the Promise, the Covenant and the Israel of God, shall be defined by God, not by the misguided, misinformed or mistaken. If we are in Christ, the only way anyone can be the true Israel (Hosea 11:1; Hosea 14:5-6;   Matthew 2:15; Galatians 3:16-17), then we are all Abraham's seed and inheritors or heirs according to the promises (John 8:33; Galatians 3:28-29) to Israel.

 

 

Philippians 3:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

 Paul, as a remnant Jew in the New Covenant is speaking to those of the Gentile remnant, maybe remnant Jews as well, about the New Covenant in Messiah.

 

To claim that "the Church" replaces Israel denies that there is a new covenant, or that being a Jew means nothing. But Paul rejects that claim.

1 Then what advantage has the Jew ? Or what is the benefit of circumcision ? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What then ? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? 4 May it never be! (Romans 3)

 

 

John 4:21-24 (NKJV)
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 The beauty of the New Covenant is that "God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

 

There is no replacement.



#5
Donibm

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What is the obvious conclusion?  I dunno.  Whatever the Word of God says.

 

 

1)

God is the God of ALL men, and in Him, there is neither Jew NOR Gentile.

 

 

2)

That the Jews were broken off, and we shouldn't boast at their fall?

 

 

3)

Or maybe that Isaiah also showed that the TRUE ISRAEL was all the saints.  Yup.  That would include Abel, Noah, Enoch, Job (who was probably a Middle Easterner - Asian), Melchezidek, Jethro, and a host of others who certainly were not "Israelites".

 

Doubling that, Paul himself said that a REAL JEW is one who is such INWARDLY, not of bloodright.

 

So, yes, of course all of Israel will be saved ... once you know who ISRAEL actually is.

 

But of course, concerning the NATURAL SEED, well, all one really needs to do is read Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah ... to see what GOD has to say about that.  Last I could read, the vast majority of them were sinful, blotted out of His Book, stricken with trouble due to their rebellion, even Jesus said they could not escape the damnation of Hell ... and rewind, I see "only a REMNANT will be saved"

 

Even the sealed 144,000 in Revelation is less than 0% of the total Jewish population on planet earth.  The brings the word "remnant" into prospective doesn't it?

 

 

4)

Maybe the point is the ADOPTION?  But that is called Gods "GOOD PLEASURE" ... so, I'd suggest all men be careful with these sort of topics that try to drive a wedge between Jew and Gentile.  Scriptures themselves warn of this very thing. 

 

And concerning adoption, an adopted child has FULL LEGAL RIGHT to everything by the parent, including inheritance.  In fact, it is against the Law for the parent to not take care of the child with full benefits.  Same thing applies in Gods Kingdom ... for He is no respecter of persons.

 

Jesus Himself say, "don't kid yourselves just cause you think you can hide behind your bloodties to Abraham.  God can make these lifeless STONES into sons of Abraham."

 

Jesus also said that it will be a terrible thing for them when they see their forefathers enter, yet they themselves are cast out.

 

 

5)

And Paul was not teaching a new thing.  Moses himself said to circumcise the foreskins of your heart.  Paul likewise is saying that true circumcision, is TRUE repentance, not nationality.  These are the true children of God.



#6
nebula

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so, I'd suggest all men be careful with these sort of topics that try to drive a wedge between Jew and Gentile.  Scriptures themselves warn of this very thing.


It is very ironic how the problem among the 1st century believers was Jews trying to force Gentiles into becoming Jews in order to be saved.

Ever since then, Gentiles have been trying to force Jews to become Gentiles in order to be saved.

If you don't believe me, spend some time with Jews who have come to faith in Messiah, and ask them how [Gentile] Christians make them feel.

Who is putting a wedge against who?

#7
shiloh357

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Doubling that, Paul himself said that a REAL JEW is one who is such INWARDLY, not of bloodright.

 

That is not what Paul said, exactly.  Paul was using an imaginary Jewish interlociter (a common rhetorical device) to make his point about what it means for Jews to live as true Jews.   Paul is not saying that all those who believe in Jesus are the real Jews.   Paul is explaining that a Jewish person should not put faith in their physical identity and that being Jewish really comes from living one's life as a praise to God.  He was not changing the defintion of "Jew" to include Gentile believers.

 

 

 

So, yes, of course all of Israel will be saved ... once you know who ISRAEL actually is.

 

Israel are those who are of the physical descendents of Jacob who put their faith in Jesus. They are the "Israel" within the physical nation of Israel.



#8
EnochBethany

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Romans 9-11 is a key passage on Dispensations, Israel vs the Church.

 

Note that the passage states that true Israel is a smaller part of physical Israel. The meaning of Israel is not expanded to include non-descendants of Jacob, but restricted to a subset of them.



#9
JohnDB

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You are really good stringing verses and passages together from different contexts and forcing them to address an issue they were never meant to address.  When Paul refers to the "Israel of God."  He is talking about Jewish believers, the remnant in Israel that put faith in Jesus. 

 

The Bible doesn't spiritualize the terms "Jew" or "Israel."   Everytime those words are used they are ONLY ever referring to physical Jews, not Gentile beleivers.

 

Romans 2:28 is not talking about Gentile believers.  It is talking about Jews being circumcized in their heart.  Romans 2:28-29 is telling Jews what it means to be a real Jew. 

 

Romans 9:6 is talking about the remnant.   That true Israel is comprised of the Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.  In God's eyes, from a theological standpoint, it is not enough to simply be a member of the physical nation of Israel.  The true Israel were Jewish believers.

 

 

Then Galatians 3:28 is nonsense.

 

 

Galatians 3:28 (KJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Right?



#10
JohnDB

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Romans 9-11 is a key passage on Dispensations, Israel vs the Church.

 

Note that the passage states that true Israel is a smaller part of physical Israel. The meaning of Israel is not expanded to include non-descendants of Jacob, but restricted to a subset of them.

 

Not so.

 

You (again) throw out Galatians 3:28, Galatians 6:13-18, Romans 11:16-26, Romans 2:28-29, and Philippians 3:1-3.

 

You must consider what you read in all these texts together.

 

The foregone conclusion is:

 

John 4:
23 ... true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

Philippians 3:3 (KJV)
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Fact of the matter is, God has been doing this all along. It is what distinguished Jacob from Esau, Noah from the rest of his generation, Abel from Cain for pity sake.

 

Even in the law of Moses...

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

...where there is no distinction between male and female free or slave Jew or Greek.



#11
JohnDB

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Doubling that, Paul himself said that a REAL JEW is one who is such INWARDLY, not of bloodright.

 

That is not what Paul said, exactly.  Paul was using an imaginary Jewish interlociter (a common rhetorical device) to make his point about what it means for Jews to live as true Jews.   Paul is not saying that all those who believe in Jesus are the real Jews.   Paul is explaining that a Jewish person should not put faith in their physical identity and that being Jewish really comes from living one's life as a praise to God.  He was not changing the defintion of "Jew" to include Gentile believers.

 

 

 

So, yes, of course all of Israel will be saved ... once you know who ISRAEL actually is.

 

Israel are those who are of the physical descendents of Jacob who put their faith in Jesus. They are the "Israel" within the physical nation of Israel.

 

 

Once again, in point #2 you douse the flame out of Galatians 3:28 etc.

 

Point #1 {would be} true if that was all the Bible said about the subject. It is far from all there is.



#12
JohnDB

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If klal yisro'el is only believing yehudiym (in Yeshua) then there most certainly is a distinction between yehudiym (am yisro'el) and ha goyum that believe in Yeshua.

 

Get out your scissors and pen knives... it's time to extract texts from the Bible again (like the sephardics did with Isaiah 53 in the Haftorah) an the Sanhedrin did with Daniel demoting the book from the prophets to the writings... 'cause we don't want to believe what it  says.



#13
JohnDB

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The origin of the name Israel (Yisra'el) comes from the original Hebrew:

 

Yish (he)

Sarar (prince)*

elohiym (God)

 

*8323 sarar { saw-rar’}
 
a primitive root; TWOT - 2295; v
 
AV - rule 3, make prince 1, altogether 1; 5
 
GK - 8606 { שָׂרַר }
 
1)     to be or act as prince, rule, contend, have power, prevail over, reign, govern
1a)     (Qal) to rule over, govern
1b)     (Hithpael) to lord it over
 

The ultimate Prince of God is Yeshua (Jesus). And if we realized who we are in the Spirit... we would be called by his name Israel.



#14
shiloh357

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You are really good stringing verses and passages together from different contexts and forcing them to address an issue they were never meant to address.  When Paul refers to the "Israel of God."  He is talking about Jewish believers, the remnant in Israel that put faith in Jesus. 

 

The Bible doesn't spiritualize the terms "Jew" or "Israel."   Everytime those words are used they are ONLY ever referring to physical Jews, not Gentile beleivers.

 

Romans 2:28 is not talking about Gentile believers.  It is talking about Jews being circumcized in their heart.  Romans 2:28-29 is telling Jews what it means to be a real Jew. 

 

Romans 9:6 is talking about the remnant.   That true Israel is comprised of the Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.  In God's eyes, from a theological standpoint, it is not enough to simply be a member of the physical nation of Israel.  The true Israel were Jewish believers.

 

 

Then Galatians 3:28 is nonsense.

 

 

Galatians 3:28 (KJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Right?

 

Galatians 3:28 is simply saying that in Christ being  Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female offers no one an advantage or sets one at a disadvantage where access to God's grace is concerned.

 

It is rather irrational to use Gal. 3:28 which says that one is neither Gentile or Jew in Christ to argue that in Christ one is, in fact, a Jew.   The Bible never spritualizes Jews to refer to Gentile believers.  To say otherwise is sloppy theology and sloppy hermeneutics.



#15
shiloh357

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Doubling that, Paul himself said that a REAL JEW is one who is such INWARDLY, not of bloodright.

 

That is not what Paul said, exactly.  Paul was using an imaginary Jewish interlociter (a common rhetorical device) to make his point about what it means for Jews to live as true Jews.   Paul is not saying that all those who believe in Jesus are the real Jews.   Paul is explaining that a Jewish person should not put faith in their physical identity and that being Jewish really comes from living one's life as a praise to God.  He was not changing the defintion of "Jew" to include Gentile believers.

 

 

 

So, yes, of course all of Israel will be saved ... once you know who ISRAEL actually is.

 

Israel are those who are of the physical descendents of Jacob who put their faith in Jesus. They are the "Israel" within the physical nation of Israel.

 

 

Once again, in point #2 you douse the flame out of Galatians 3:28 etc.

 

Point #1 {would be} true if that was all the Bible said about the subject. It is far from all there is.

 

No, you are simply not competent to correclty exegete Galations 3:28.  You don't know what you are talking about.



#16
nebula

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You are really good stringing verses and passages together from different contexts and forcing them to address an issue they were never meant to address.  When Paul refers to the "Israel of God."  He is talking about Jewish believers, the remnant in Israel that put faith in Jesus. 

 

The Bible doesn't spiritualize the terms "Jew" or "Israel."   Everytime those words are used they are ONLY ever referring to physical Jews, not Gentile beleivers.

 

Romans 2:28 is not talking about Gentile believers.  It is talking about Jews being circumcized in their heart.  Romans 2:28-29 is telling Jews what it means to be a real Jew. 

 

Romans 9:6 is talking about the remnant.   That true Israel is comprised of the Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.  In God's eyes, from a theological standpoint, it is not enough to simply be a member of the physical nation of Israel.  The true Israel were Jewish believers.

Then Galatians 3:28 is nonsense.

 

 

Galatians 3:28 (KJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Right?

 

What do you do with the "there is neither male nor female" part of this sentence?

 

Do you treat it the same as you are treating "there is neither Jew nor Greek"?



#17
nebula

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John - Do you believe Gentile Christians have inherited the birthright to the land of Israel?



#18
EnochBethany

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Romans 9-11 is a key passage on Dispensations, Israel vs the Church.

 

Note that the passage states that true Israel is a smaller part of physical Israel. The meaning of Israel is not expanded to include non-descendants of Jacob, but restricted to a subset of them.

 

Not so.

 

You (again) throw out Galatians 3:28, Galatians 6:13-18, Romans 11:16-26, Romans 2:28-29, and Philippians 3:1-3.

 

You must consider what you read in all these texts together.

 

The foregone conclusion is:

 

John 4:
23 ... true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

Philippians 3:3 (KJV)
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Fact of the matter is, God has been doing this all along. It is what distinguished Jacob from Esau, Noah from the rest of his generation, Abel from Cain for pity sake.

 

Even in the law of Moses...

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

...where there is no distinction between male and female free or slave Jew or Greek.

 

Well, John of the dB's,

I hear you loud & clear.

 

No, I don't de-consider the rest of the Bible.  I have read it from cover to cover, times beyond counting. 

 

Yes, in the Church there is neither Jew nor Gentile, this dispensation.

 

Now back up a minute, por favor, senor, and look at your proof texts.  It is easy to show that not all Israel is Israel.  Scripture clearly teaches that true Israel is a smaller set of physical Israel.  The concept of Jew or Israelite is narrowed.  But,

 

it is not expanded to include more than the physical nation of Israel.  So to quote passages where Israel is less than Israel, is no proof that Israel is more than Israel.

 

As to Dispensationalism, I recommend to the one who wishes to know the concept or to argue against the real POV, instead of a straw man, study Ryrie's Dispensationalism Today.

 

Now if you are a covenant theologian & reject D, I can still regard you as a brother in the Lord.



#19
Willa

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The Holy Spirit in me cries out Abba, Daddy to Father God. Jesus has become my eldest Big Brother Who cares for me like my Daddy does. But I do not feel the connection to the LAND of Israel that Jews by blood feel--that it is my rightful inheritance. In Christ the land also belongs to me to eventually rule and reign over, but only by nature of my remaining in Him. So I bless Israel and pray for the peace of Jeruselem, because I know that she is dear to my Savior's heart. He wept over her.

Enoch, I have not read the linc, but all born again people are my brother and sisters in Christ, no matter what strange ideas they may have, including you. It is best to let God be the judge of who is our brother or sister, lest one seems to be contentious as in Gal. 5:20, or even worse, devisive.. I do not consider myself a dispensationalist other than where the Bible mentions such as in Epesians 1and 3:2 & 6. And I will not add to Scripture or go beyond what it plainly states as many theologians do. But I don't understand your statement concerning covenant theology. We are in the covenant of grace by His blood, which is the Gospel.

Please, tread softly and in His love, offering others grace as He has given you grace. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher Who will lead us into all truth.
Blessings,
Willa
PS, I, too have been reading and studying the Bible for a long time--since 1958 when I first repented and bought my first New Testament. But without love I am nothing.

#20
JohnDB

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You are really good stringing verses and passages together from different contexts and forcing them to address an issue they were never meant to address.  When Paul refers to the "Israel of God."  He is talking about Jewish believers, the remnant in Israel that put faith in Jesus. 

 

The Bible doesn't spiritualize the terms "Jew" or "Israel."   Everytime those words are used they are ONLY ever referring to physical Jews, not Gentile beleivers.

 

Romans 2:28 is not talking about Gentile believers.  It is talking about Jews being circumcized in their heart.  Romans 2:28-29 is telling Jews what it means to be a real Jew. 

 

Romans 9:6 is talking about the remnant.   That true Israel is comprised of the Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.  In God's eyes, from a theological standpoint, it is not enough to simply be a member of the physical nation of Israel.  The true Israel were Jewish believers.

 

 

Then Galatians 3:28 is nonsense.

 

 

Galatians 3:28 (KJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Right?

 

Galatians 3:28 is simply saying that in Christ being  Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female offers no one an advantage or sets one at a disadvantage where access to God's grace is concerned.

 

It is rather irrational to use Gal. 3:28 which says that one is neither Gentile or Jew in Christ to argue that in Christ one is, in fact, a Jew.   The Bible never spritualizes Jews to refer to Gentile believers.  To say otherwise is sloppy theology and sloppy hermeneutics.

 

 

 

Oh, so in Romans 11 God grafts non-olive branches into the olive tree and cuts off the natural olive branches and the non-olive branches are just non-olive branches?

 

No!

 

Sorry for your belief system, but the Bible does call Gentile born believers wild OLIVE branches.

 

And you isolated Galatians 3:28 leaving off Romans 2:28-29 / Philippians 3:3 / Romans 9:6 / Galatians 6:16 (same book as Galatians 3:28)...

 

So who is using bad hermeneutics? Hmm?






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