Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Is there a universal moral law?


  • Please log in to reply
104 replies to this topic

#1
EnochBethany

EnochBethany

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Revising the ASV (1901). Here I typically post the ASV (1901), perhaps modernized by myself ("He goes" for "He goeth.")

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?


  • 1

#2
FresnoJoe

FresnoJoe

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,048 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Elgin, Illinois, USA
  • Interests:The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 - - - Love, Your Brother Joe

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

 

:thumbsup:

 

The Mighty Holy Spirit

 

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9


  • 0

#3
LuftWaffle

LuftWaffle

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 716 posts
  • Gender:Male

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

I'd say there's more than mere conscience. If a person is capable of torturing a baby for fun without feeling any remorse, such an act is still considered wrong, and ought to be.

 

It seems then that some actions are wrong in and of themselves, regardless of what the person performing the action feels.


  • 1

#4
EnochBethany

EnochBethany

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Revising the ASV (1901). Here I typically post the ASV (1901), perhaps modernized by myself ("He goes" for "He goeth.")

 

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

I'd say there's more than mere conscience. If a person is capable of torturing a baby for fun without feeling any remorse, such an act is still considered wrong, and ought to be.

 

It seems then that some actions are wrong in and of themselves, regardless of what the person performing the action feels.

 

Well, if it is wrong, how does a person know it is wrong aside from it violating his conscience?  How do those who judge the wrong doer know it is wrong aside from their conscience?  Anything beyond conscience?


  • 1

#5
Donibm

Donibm

    Advanced Member

  • Members *
  • PipPipPip
  • 304 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:FL, USA
  • Interests:Attempting to close profile ... but I don't see how to close this account.

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

 

 

I think there is.  Well, I believe (Biblically) that there is a universal moral code.

 

Here's why:

 

The DISPENSATIONS.

 

Meaning, there is a Dispensation of the Conscious.

 

 

... meaning, from Adam to Moses, there was no Law.  And there is no transgression in the ABSENCE of the Law.

 

This is why, when you read closely, Cain was NOT accused of "murder".  Check it out.

 

This is why Noah was not accused of drunkeness.

 

This is why Abraham was not accused of idol worship, not Jacobs own wife.

 

 

Where there is no Law, there is no transgression.

 

So, how can such men be Judged?

 

They will be Judged based on their CONSCIOUS.

 

The conscious, who we know to be the Spirit of God, never tells us to do wrong.  Think about it.  When has your conscious ever told you to "punch him in the nose?"  When has it ever said, "run over that fool walking too slow across the street?"

 

No.  It always tells you to do the RIGHT THING.

 

So, that is the "universal moral law" that has been placed in us.  The KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

 

Ah!  And there is the key, isn't it?

 

WE HAVE EATEN FROM THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

 

So, we are born with this "universal moral code"

 

Judgment will come even in the absence of the Law of Moses, for the majority of mankind has never even heard of such a thing.  None prior to Moses had it.  The nations of the world didn't have it.


  • 1

#6
EnochBethany

EnochBethany

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Revising the ASV (1901). Here I typically post the ASV (1901), perhaps modernized by myself ("He goes" for "He goeth.")

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

I think there is. Well, I believe (Biblically) that there is a universal moral code.

Here's why:

The DISPENSATIONS.

Meaning, there is a Dispensation of the Conscious.


.. meaning, from Adam to Moses, there was no Law. And there is no transgression in the ABSENCE of the Law.

This is why, when you read closely, Cain was NOT accused of "murder". Check it out.

This is why Noah was not accused of drunkeness.

This is why Abraham was not accused of idol worship, not Jacobs own wife.


Where there is no Law, there is no transgression.

So, how can such men be Judged?

They will be Judged based on their CONSCIOUS.

The conscious, who we know to be the Spirit of God, never tells us to do wrong. Think about it. When has your conscious ever told you to "punch him in the nose?" When has it ever said, "run over that fool walking too slow across the street?"

No. It always tells you to do the RIGHT THING.

So, that is the "universal moral law" that has been placed in us. The KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

Ah! And there is the key, isn't it?

WE HAVE EATEN FROM THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

So, we are born with this "universal moral code"

Judgment will come even in the absence of the Law of Moses, for the majority of mankind has never even heard of such a thing. None prior to Moses had it. The nations of the world didn't have it.


You bring to my mind Romans 2 " when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);"

Here is "the work of the law written in the heart." Probably the conscience is one part or aspect of the heart, the term conscience not being found as such in the OT, but David's heart smote him.

I wud say that Cain's murder is covered by the statement that the imagination of man's heart was only to do evil continually. This is a general judgment on men (including Cain) leading to near extermination at the flood. It is more than an accusation; it is a verdict.

"This is why Noah was not accused of drunkeness."
Well, the fact that a story is told without accusation attached or judgment mentioned does not imply either approval or disapproval.

We cannot know what people were not accused of by reason of no record of it in the Bible. After the law many, many persons are mentioned; but the lack of accusation written does not imply there was no accusation; just no revelation on the subject.

So, how can such men be Judged?

No, the human conscience is not the Spirit of God. It is possible to falsely accused by conscience when conscience is judging by your own standard, but not the Bible's. 1 John addresses such a situation:

1 John 3: "Hereby shall we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our heart before him: 20 because if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."
The conscience can tell you to do wrong. Great evils can be done with clear conscience, because the standard is wrong. People at one time might have felt guilty for eating certain meat. Peter is an example of this in Acts. Due to his conscience, he argued with God, "Not so, Lord."a

As a child, my mother taught me I should punch other children who punched me. I developed the idea moving on from her advise that I should beat up other kids if they hit me. Cowboy movies taught me that to be heroic, you should be able to beat up the other guy.

I don't know any proof that man had no conscience before eating the fruit. Eve said she should not eat it before she ate. But she gained experience of evil, as did Adam. And I suppose by contrast it also taught about good.

If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God (James). Knowing right from wrong does not come automatic. There is some knowledge in the heart, but it is insufficient. The human conscience is a poor substitute for the Holy Spirit, which we see indwelling men permanently only after the cross of Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

My testimony is that I have done many evil things with a clear conscience. For the Holy Spirit is the Christian's guide; the conscience is inadequate. One thing I have had to school my conscience on is that there is a hierarchy of ethic: Love of neighbor trumps lesser rules. If it is not about love of God or neighbor, we are plinking tiddlywinks.

Back to Romans 2: "Romans 2 " when Gentiles …are the law to themselves; 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);"

The question here is does the passage mean that the conscience is the law, or is the conscience merely the referee which judges by a law written in the heart, a law which is something other than the imagination of the heart which imagines to do evil all the time in the unregenerate?
  • 1

#7
LuftWaffle

LuftWaffle

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 716 posts
  • Gender:Male

 

 

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

I'd say there's more than mere conscience. If a person is capable of torturing a baby for fun without feeling any remorse, such an act is still considered wrong, and ought to be.

 

It seems then that some actions are wrong in and of themselves, regardless of what the person performing the action feels.

 

Well, if it is wrong, how does a person know it is wrong aside from it violating his conscience?  How do those who judge the wrong doer know it is wrong aside from their conscience?  Anything beyond conscience?

 

 

I think there are two faculties at work when it comes to things of an ethical nature. The first is conscience, which hounds us when we're contemplating a wrong action or when we've already done a wrong action. I agree that it's possible to sear the conscience so that it stops functioning as it should. A lawyer for instance might lie so often and get so good at it that they don't feel anything after telling a lie.

 

But there's another faculty, which is a moral sense. If somebody asks me if elective abortion is wrong, then it's not my conscience, as in a feeling of guilt that causes me respond, but rather my moral sense. One's moral sense can evaluate the ethical weight of a proposition without any feelings as such.

I think the moral sense is a mental faculty that works just like any of the other senses. If somebody shows me a blue ball, then using my sense of sight, I can say, "That is a blue ball".

If somebody proposes something immoral, then using my moral sense, I can say, "That is wrong".

 

The problem with limiting morality to mere conscience, means that if an individual's conscience permits a certain action, then that action is at the very least morally neutral, even though it might be quite wrong. This means that people with a clinical inability to feel remorse, such as psychopaths, aren't actually capable of doing anything wrong, no matter what they do. Surely this doesn't resonate with our moral sense though?

 

Carrying on with the parallel of eyesight, one can then say the following:

Light is the thing that enables our sense of sight to work properly, likewise

A moral law is the thing that enables our moral sense to work properly.

 

So really there are 3 parts to morality:

1. Conscience, which let's us know when we've done something wrong by gibing us feelings of guilt and anxiousness.

2. Our moral sense, which evaluates and informs us of what is right and wrong.

3. The objective moral law which illuminates the moral landscape.


  • 1

#8
EnochBethany

EnochBethany

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Revising the ASV (1901). Here I typically post the ASV (1901), perhaps modernized by myself ("He goes" for "He goeth.")

 

 

 

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

I'd say there's more than mere conscience. If a person is capable of torturing a baby for fun without feeling any remorse, such an act is still considered wrong, and ought to be.

 

It seems then that some actions are wrong in and of themselves, regardless of what the person performing the action feels.

 

Well, if it is wrong, how does a person know it is wrong aside from it violating his conscience?  How do those who judge the wrong doer know it is wrong aside from their conscience?  Anything beyond conscience?

 

 

I think there are two faculties at work when it comes to things of an ethical nature. The first is conscience, which hounds us when we're contemplating a wrong action or when we've already done a wrong action. I agree that it's possible to sear the conscience so that it stops functioning as it should. A lawyer for instance might lie so often and get so good at it that they don't feel anything after telling a lie.

 

But there's another faculty, which is a moral sense. If somebody asks me if elective abortion is wrong, then it's not my conscience, as in a feeling of guilt that causes me respond, but rather my moral sense. One's moral sense can evaluate the ethical weight of a proposition without any feelings as such.

I think the moral sense is a mental faculty that works just like any of the other senses. If somebody shows me a blue ball, then using my sense of sight, I can say, "That is a blue ball".

If somebody proposes something immoral, then using my moral sense, I can say, "That is wrong".

 

The problem with limiting morality to mere conscience, means that if an individual's conscience permits a certain action, then that action is at the very least morally neutral, even though it might be quite wrong. This means that people with a clinical inability to feel remorse, such as psychopaths, aren't actually capable of doing anything wrong, no matter what they do. Surely this doesn't resonate with our moral sense though?

 

Carrying on with the parallel of eyesight, one can then say the following:

Light is the thing that enables our sense of sight to work properly, likewise

A moral law is the thing that enables our moral sense to work properly.

 

So really there are 3 parts to morality:

1. Conscience, which let's us know when we've done something wrong by gibing us feelings of guilt and anxiousness.

2. Our moral sense, which evaluates and informs us of what is right and wrong.

3. The objective moral law which illuminates the moral landscape.

 

Well, I hope you're not Luftwaffling!

 

"I think there are two faculties at work when it comes to things of an ethical nature."

 

I have had considerable experience with immoral faculties,

at universities I attended.
 

Seriously, it was an interesting presentation that you made. Thanks.


  • 1

#9
Donibm

Donibm

    Advanced Member

  • Members *
  • PipPipPip
  • 304 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:FL, USA
  • Interests:Attempting to close profile ... but I don't see how to close this account.

Your response is mingled in with my own typing, so, I was a little hard to know what your responses were.  But ... here goes...

 

 

1)

sinning continually without the prick of a conscious fits perfectly in like with the Spirit "not wrestling forever with man" and "grieving the Spirit"

 

It is the Spirit who raises a standard against Satan.

 

 

2)

I agree with Romans 2 100%.  I say it all the time. 

 

Scriptures clearly say what the Law is for and who is it for.  It is NOT for the righteous, but the sinners.  But even a sinner, who, has the NATURAL DISPOSITION to not lie, cheat, steal, curse, do drugs, etc are all him just doing what he should.  he is not trying to observe the law.  His nature observes the Law eventhough he doesn't even know what the Law is.

 

"CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GODLINESS"  ... and this does not mean a clean room.  It means a "clean" heart. 

 

 

 

3)

Observe.  Cain was religious.  Cain was TRYING to please God. 

 

Jealousy.  Disappointment.  Anger.  ... can lead to murder.  And since there was no law against "murder", Cain was not charged for murder.  That is the only point I was making.

 

 

4)

I didn't say anything about approval OR disapproval.  The end result is still the same - there was no Judgment on his drunkenness because, just as the Scriptures clearly state, "where there is no law, there is no transgression".  No transgression.  No transgression.  So, whether judgment is shown or not, it doesn't matter.  Scriptures already identify that in the absence of the Law, there is no transgression.  That was my only point.  So, we CAN know ... because there is NO TRANSGRESSION in the absence of the Law.

 

If there is NO LAW on speeding, how in the world am I going to charge you if you do 95MPH right now?  Charge you ... with WHAT?  Assumptions?  Presumptions?  My delusions on what is "common sense"?

 

No.  Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

 

 

5)

Conscious = Holy Spirit is a matter of debate.

 

Either way, BOTH raise a standard against sin.  BOTH tell you to not do wrong.  You are suggesting that just because you do something wrong on a clear conscious, that its your conscious TELLING you to do it ... and that is false.  The conscious ALWAYS tells us to resist doing something wrong, but I never said that it speaks all the time either.

 

That same voice in your head that says, "No, don't do it" is your conscious ... whom I know to be the Holy Spirit.  The Spirit of Truth that was in the world since before Christianity.  Just because He dwells in the believer as the Comforter, doesn't mean that He hasn't been around since before Adam.

 

ALL good is from God ... including the works of your own hands (lest any man boast of himself).

 

It doesn't matter if the world cannot receive Him, He is still the standard bearer of right vs wrong.

 

... and the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE placed the moral code.

 

 

6)

I laughed at the story of your mom telling you to beat up little kids.  My folks did the opposite (didn't work though ... not fully anyway).

 

First Scripture that came to mind was "sins laid on their children BY THEIR FATHERS"

 

There is no such thing as a generational curse ... only bad examples and teachings by parents. 

 

Smoking.

Porn

Violence

Drinking

ungodliness

etc.

 

Children pick up the traits of their parents.  But, in such cases, they are groomed and taught those things, essentially, killing the effect of the conscious, and deafening the cry of the Spirit.  And yet, even now, I can say to you that violence is not the answer and that it was wrong and have a serious 1 on 1 with you and your conscious/Holy Spirit WILL intercede ... regardless of what you did or what you were taught.  It is PLACED IN US.  To disagree is to call God a liar ... for we HAVE partaken of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

 

A man who cheats on his wife the first time may feel aweful.  Again, still feels bad.  Again, slightly remorse.  Again and he hardly is effected.  Soon, it will be habitual.  But in the end, he STILL rejected the Spirit.  He STILL refused to listen to his conscious.  Why?  How?  Because it was there ... and HE crucified it.  But, the warning had already sounded, so he is without excuse.

 

And that is exactly how it works in the spiritual world....

 

 

7)

James wrote if anymore lacks WISDOM.  The Tree was not called the Tree of Wisdom of Good and Evil.  It was KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.  There is a difference.  Wisdom is the ability to make sound JUDGMENT on things.   Knowledge is to KNOW the things.  Knowledge must come first, otherwise, wisdom will fail.  And if not knowledge, certainly discernment.

 

... and I just want to be clear, I've NEVER said that the Spirit wasn't the greatest guide.  I keep seeing responses in these threads about the Spirit being the greatest.  I agree.  I've never challenged that.  Not sure why it is echoed so much here.

 

 

8)

Of course you have done many evil things with a clear conscious.  I've probably done far worst with the same.  But the CONSCIOUS, just because its "clear", is not what is TELLING you to do them.  We crucify it.  We shut it down.  Even the Spirit does not wrestle with a sinful saint.  He will back down and let you go, speaking not a word, even to your own backsliding.


  • 2

#10
shemuel14

shemuel14
  • Members
  • 11 posts

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

 
 
I think there is.  Well, I believe (Biblically) that there is a universal moral code.
 
Here's why:
 
The DISPENSATIONS.
 
Meaning, there is a Dispensation of the Conscious.
 
 
... meaning, from Adam to Moses, there was no Law.  And there is no transgression in the ABSENCE of the Law.
 
This is why, when you read closely, Cain was NOT accused of "murder".  Check it out.

 
 I believe there is a universal moral code and it is based on what the Creator has given every sensient being and that is free will and laws of nature or natural law. Murder and stealing and adultery are wrong because they violate people's choices. Homosexuality is wrong, because it is against the natural order of nature.
 
I would say that Cain was accused of murder and he was punished for that murder. He just was not put to death for that murder, because the Torah requires two witnesses for the death penalty and there was technically only one witness to the murder of Abel and that was YHWH. That is why his punishment was banishment from his family.
  • 1

#11
Donibm

Donibm

    Advanced Member

  • Members *
  • PipPipPip
  • 304 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:FL, USA
  • Interests:Attempting to close profile ... but I don't see how to close this account.

 

 

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

 
 
I think there is.  Well, I believe (Biblically) that there is a universal moral code.
 
Here's why:
 
The DISPENSATIONS.
 
Meaning, there is a Dispensation of the Conscious.
 
 
... meaning, from Adam to Moses, there was no Law.  And there is no transgression in the ABSENCE of the Law.
 
This is why, when you read closely, Cain was NOT accused of "murder".  Check it out.

 

 
 I believe there is a universal moral code and it is based on what the Creator has given every sensient being and that is free will and laws of nature or natural law. Murder and stealing and adultery are wrong because they violate people's choices. Homosexuality is wrong, because it is against the natural order of nature.
 
I would say that Cain was accused of murder and he was punished for that murder. He just was not put to death for that murder, because the Torah requires two witnesses for the death penalty and there was technically only one witness to the murder of Abel and that was YHWH. That is why his punishment was banishment from his family.

 

 

Yes, mankind has partaken of the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.  So yes, we know right from wrong, and are without excuse.

 

 

Concerning Cain, read the text.  What does the Word of God say?  Was he, or wasn't he condemned due to murder?  He was not.

 

There was no Law.  The Law of Moses did not exist yet.  And just as the Greek says, "these times God overlooked" ... or in some weaker translations, it says God "winked at" such things, BUT NOW commands...  In otherword, such thing are no longer tolerated.  They are without excuse.

 

Aslo, the Greek says that there is no transgression in the ABSENSE of law.

 

 

Think about it.

 

 

have you seen that movie where there is a single day that all things are permissable, and no violation of the law exist?  I thin part 2 is coming out.  That is LAWLESSNESS.  men can do whatever their own hearts tell them in the absence of the Law.  In fact, that is why God gave the Law.  God, our Father, has taught us "right from wrong" ... and we have less excuse then the men of Noahs lifetime.


  • 1

#12
Donibm

Donibm

    Advanced Member

  • Members *
  • PipPipPip
  • 304 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:FL, USA
  • Interests:Attempting to close profile ... but I don't see how to close this account.

 

 

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

 
 
I think there is.  Well, I believe (Biblically) that there is a universal moral code.
 
Here's why:
 
The DISPENSATIONS.
 
Meaning, there is a Dispensation of the Conscious.
 
 
... meaning, from Adam to Moses, there was no Law.  And there is no transgression in the ABSENCE of the Law.
 
This is why, when you read closely, Cain was NOT accused of "murder".  Check it out.

 

 
 I believe there is a universal moral code and it is based on what the Creator has given every sensient being and that is free will and laws of nature or natural law. Murder and stealing and adultery are wrong because they violate people's choices. Homosexuality is wrong, because it is against the natural order of nature.
 
I would say that Cain was accused of murder and he was punished for that murder. He just was not put to death for that murder, because the Torah requires two witnesses for the death penalty and there was technically only one witness to the murder of Abel and that was YHWH. That is why his punishment was banishment from his family.

 

 

Well, it is also the result of eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

We know ...


  • 1

#13
jerryR34

jerryR34

    Veteran Member

  • Nonbeliever
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 607 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon, USA

One thing I struggle with is that anything God does is by definition moral even if were man to do the same thing, it would be immoral.  That does not seem universal.


  • 1

#14
FresnoJoe

FresnoJoe

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,048 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Elgin, Illinois, USA
  • Interests:The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 - - - Love, Your Brother Joe

One thing I struggle with is that anything God does is by definition moral even if were man to do the same thing, it would be immoral.  That does not seem universal.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Man's Thoughts

 

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
 

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
 

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
 

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:6-9

 

Crumble Under His Mercy

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8


  • 0

#15
LuftWaffle

LuftWaffle

    Veteran Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 716 posts
  • Gender:Male

One thing I struggle with is that anything God does is by definition moral even if were man to do the same thing, it would be immoral.  That does not seem universal.

 

I'm not sure what the op meant by the term universal. If universal is taken to be circumstance independent then there are very few universal moral laws.

 

I understand morality to be objective which is to say mind-independent. In other words certain moral truths are so, regardless of what anybody thinks. I believe there are many objective moral values and duties.

 

As such I would disagree with you that anything God could do would by definition be moral. That would make morality arbitrary, which is one of the prongs of Euthuphro's dilemma. The other prong being that God submits to a moral law outside Himself. This is a false dilemma though, because the third option is that morality is in line with God's good nature. Making morality neither arbitrary, nor separate from God.


  • 1

#16
enoob57

enoob57

    Royal Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,066 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Grove, Oklahoma
  • Interests:**Study God's Word to know God...
    **To know Christ in service to others!
    **Multi skilled in building industry for use in that service.
    **Computer skills: graphic art, cad design
    **Bible College 3.5 years

One thing I struggle with is that anything God does is by definition moral even if were man to do the same thing, it would be immoral.  That does not seem universal.

One who peers into darkness expecting to see lies in a universal truth 'He will NOT'... Love, Steven
  • 1

#17
Guest_Teddyboy_*

Guest_Teddyboy_*
  • Guests

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path."1

"The Bible has changed the lives of more persons than any other book," said W. Clement Stone. "It has helped countless thousands to develop physical, mental and moral health."

At least here in America, the ever increasing and accelerating moral decline, the tearing down of marriage, the promotion of homosexuality as a normal alternative lifestyle, unthinkable abortion practices, the never ending bombardment from online pornographers and pornographic pedophiles, etc., etc., are, without question, directly related to the ever increasing attacks against the Bible, Christianity, the Ten Commandments, and the laws prohibiting prayer and the display of Christian symbols in public places.

Every rule, every law, every principle in God's Word, the Bible, is there, not because God is a kill-joy, but for our protection and the total physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being of the individual, the family, the community, and the nation as a whole.

God's moral law is as much a universal law as is the law of gravity. We know better than to try and break this law. In fact, we can't break the law of gravity. If we try to, it breaks us. Or rather, we break ourselves by disregarding it. This law holds the physical universe together, keeps the planets in their orbit, and the earth revolving around the sun. It also keeps our feet on good old mother earth. Without it life could not exist on earth.

Likewise, God's moral law holds the moral universe together. It, too, is for our protection and total well-being. We can't break it any more than we can break the law of gravity. When we try to it breaks us. Or rather, in our disregard of it, we break and destroy ourselves.

In this sense it's not God who judges us for our disregard of his laws. We bring the judgment or the natural consequences upon ourselves. Obeying God's Word leads to life. Disregarding it and going our own way leads, not only to disaster in this life, but also to eternal death in the after-life—which is not the cessation of life but eternal separation from God, the author of all love and life.

In other words, God's laws are to protect us from hell—hell on earth and hell in life-after-life. We disregard God's laws to our own peril and end up unhappily  destroying ourselves.

Suggested prayer: "Dear God, thank you that you have given us the words of life—and that you have given us all the laws we need to live wholesome, fulfilling, and satisfying lives. Give me a love and great respect for your laws and help me to live in harmony with them. And please grant a great spiritual awakening throughout our nation so we will embrace your laws so that we will save our land for our children and our children's children. Thank you for hearing and answering my prayer. Gratefully, in Jesus' name, amen."


 


Edited by Teddyboy, 17 April 2014 - 05:05 PM.

  • 1

#18
enoob57

enoob57

    Royal Member

  • Soapbox - Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,066 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Grove, Oklahoma
  • Interests:**Study God's Word to know God...
    **To know Christ in service to others!
    **Multi skilled in building industry for use in that service.
    **Computer skills: graphic art, cad design
    **Bible College 3.5 years

There is fallible conscience, I mean fallible in that the moral code the conscience follows can be quite wrong, leading to men sinning with no remorse.  Anything beyond conscience?

The only way I could make sense of this is that follows is followers? Because conscience produces moral code.
According to The Lord's Word it is enough at youth into adulthood to see, by creation itself, the need of God...
The turning back to the created element as source supplier of the need without God is to deny the creative exist,
itself, demands that there be God-> Who 'IS' explained in His Word in the formation of said creative exist!
Rom 1:20-25
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;
so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified
him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became
fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to
corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts,
to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into
a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed
for ever. Amen.
KJV

Paul quite succinctly answers the begin of conscience even though it be dead in the
sin nature creation itself permits enough information about His Being to judge all
mankind by their response to where they have began in. The repeated ignore of The
Reality of God in the created witness of Him will burn the conscience out to where
that Reality is gone completely by God giving them up to the lie! So to say it is of
non reliability would be incorrect as God will judge them on this basis alone...
Love, Steven
  • 1

#19
bopeep1909

bopeep1909

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,768 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Pacific NW
  • Interests:Reading,Knitting,Jigsaw Puzzles.and I love to bake.

There was a thread on this not long ago that I commented to..  :mellow:

 

http://www.worthychr...191-conscience/


  • 1

#20
bopeep1909

bopeep1909

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,768 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Pacific NW
  • Interests:Reading,Knitting,Jigsaw Puzzles.and I love to bake.

1 Timothy 1:18-19; 4:1-2

Are you making certain choices today that your conscience would not have allowed in the past? If so, you may have become desensitized over time.

As we discussed yesterday, God uses our internal “moral compass” along with the Holy Spirit’s guidance to direct our daily choices. The conscience serves as a protective “alarm system,” sounding an alert when a Christian is about to take part in ungodly behavior. But sin can throw off the system’s sensitivity.

The insidious process begins if we choose to disobey and then refuse to deal with our rebellion. The conscience warns us repeatedly, but it will eventually become “gummed up” and ineffective if we persist in ignoring the distress signal. When that happens, there are no longer any signals from the heart to point us back toward godliness. In other words, the conscience has become seared.

One way of looking at it is to imagine removing all of the traffic signals from a busy intersection: it is a recipe for disaster. Missing “red lights” in our life can deceive us into thinking “go” when we should be putting on the brakes.

Take an honest look to determine whether your internal signals are in good working order. If they are malfunctioning, repent before the Lord, and pursue accountability and fellowship with other believers. A healthy conscience is worth the effort.

Don’t delay. Scripture warns that we have a real Enemy who desires to lure us away from godliness and into destruction. God uses a clear conscience to guide, protect, and lead us into His light and peace.

 

By Dr.Charles Stanley


  • 1




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network