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Daniel 11 - can anybody work this out?

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#1
OakWood

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There's seems to be a lot of backing and forthing between the Kings of the North and South. Who are they? What has already come to pass and what is yet to come?



#2
EnochBethany

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Dan 11 is a basically a prophecy about 2 Hellenistic Kingdoms of the 4 into which Alex the Great's empire split.  Generally the King of the North is based in Syria (mostly likely Antioch), & the King will be named either Antiochus the __ or Seleucus the __.   For example there is this king named Antiochus IV Epiphanes.  The King of the South is based in Egypt and the family name is Ptolemy.  So you get names like Ptolemy the ___.

 

Now the correlation with history has been apparently very well worked out & the details explained at least to vs 35.  But it is too much for me to memorize (or I am too lazy to memorize all those historical details).  But a good commentary on Daniel will explain it -- try Ye Olde Google. 

 

An interpretive issue will be where does Antiochus IV Epiphanes, famous for having set up an Abomination of Desolation (idol in the Temple)?  And when the passage (suddenly) says like:  "The King will do according to his will" is the passage still talking about the Hellenistic Greek kingdoms or has it jumped a time track to the antichrist?  By the time you get to chapter 12 you are definitely in the far future beyond the Hellenistic Kingdoms. 

 

At any rate, I have to read Dan 11 with a commentary in one hand, as it were.

 

Chapter Outline of Daniel

 

A Historical

1 Dan's Diet

2 The 4-Metal Image (2 is also predictive)

3 The Fiery Furnace

4 The Tree of Pride

5 Belshazzar's Feast

6 The Lion's Den

 

B. Predictive

7 The 4 Animals

8 Ram vs Goat

9 Jeremiah's 70 years & Daniel's 70 Weeks

10 The Heavenly Warfare

11 King of N vs King of S.

12 Tribulation & Resurrection



#3
OakWood

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Dan 11 is a basically a prophecy about 2 Hellenistic Kingdoms of the 4 into which Alex the Great's empire split.  Generally the King of the North is based in Syria (mostly likely Antioch), & the King will be named either Antiochus the __ or Seleucus the __.   For example there is this king named Antiochus IV Epiphanes.  The King of the South is based in Egypt and the family name is Ptolemy.  So you get names like Ptolemy the ___.

 

Now the correlation with history has been apparently very well worked out & the details explained at least to vs 35.  But it is too much for me to memorize (or I am too lazy to memorize all those historical details).  But a good commentary on Daniel will explain it -- try Ye Olde Google. 

 

An interpretive issue will be where does Antiochus IV Epiphanes, famous for having set up an Abomination of Desolation (idol in the Temple)?  And when the passage (suddenly) says like:  "The King will do according to his will" is the passage still talking about the Hellenistic Greek kingdoms or has it jumped a time track to the antichrist?  By the time you get to chapter 12 you are definitely in the far future beyond the Hellenistic Kingdoms. 

 

At any rate, I have to read Dan 11 with a commentary in one hand, as it were.

 

Chapter Outline of Daniel

 

A Historical

1 Dan's Diet

2 The 4-Metal Image (2 is also predictive)

3 The Fiery Furnace

4 The Tree of Pride

5 Belshazzar's Feast

6 The Lion's Den

 

B. Predictive

7 The 4 Animals

8 Ram vs Goat

9 Jeremiah's 70 years & Daniel's 70 Weeks

10 The Heavenly Warfare

11 King of N vs King of S.

12 Tribulation & Resurrection

 

So are you saying that none of Daniel 11 has occurred yet?



#4
EnochBethany

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Dan 11 is a basically a prophecy about 2 Hellenistic Kingdoms of the 4 into which Alex the Great's empire split.  Generally the King of the North is based in Syria (mostly likely Antioch), & the King will be named either Antiochus the __ or Seleucus the __.   For example there is this king named Antiochus IV Epiphanes.  The King of the South is based in Egypt and the family name is Ptolemy.  So you get names like Ptolemy the ___.

 

Now the correlation with history has been apparently very well worked out & the details explained at least to vs 35.  But it is too much for me to memorize (or I am too lazy to memorize all those historical details).  But a good commentary on Daniel will explain it -- try Ye Olde Google. 

 

An interpretive issue will be where does Antiochus IV Epiphanes, famous for having set up an Abomination of Desolation (idol in the Temple)?  And when the passage (suddenly) says like:  "The King will do according to his will" is the passage still talking about the Hellenistic Greek kingdoms or has it jumped a time track to the antichrist?  By the time you get to chapter 12 you are definitely in the far future beyond the Hellenistic Kingdoms. 

 

At any rate, I have to read Dan 11 with a commentary in one hand, as it were.

 

Chapter Outline of Daniel

 

A Historical

1 Dan's Diet

2 The 4-Metal Image (2 is also predictive)

3 The Fiery Furnace

4 The Tree of Pride

5 Belshazzar's Feast

6 The Lion's Den

 

B. Predictive

7 The 4 Animals

8 Ram vs Goat

9 Jeremiah's 70 years & Daniel's 70 Weeks

10 The Heavenly Warfare

11 King of N vs King of S.

12 Tribulation & Resurrection

 

So are you saying that none of Daniel 11 has occurred yet?

 

No.  Alexander the Great flourished around 333 BC (easy date to remember).  When he died, his kingdom split 4 ways.  After Alex, the Greeks depleted their strength by constantly warring with each other.  I suppose they had dreams of reunification under Me, Myself, & I.  I date the Hellenistic Period falls between Alex's death & the rise of Roman Empire, something like 150 BC.  approx.  So the struggles between The Seleucid Dynasty in the Greek Kingdom of Syria & the Ptolemaic Dynasty in Egypt went on & on, until Rome took over.  Those struggles are prophesied in Daniel 11.  But there is a jump to time future to ourselves, possibly where it says, ~"The King shall do according to his own will."  I am confident that you can easily find on line a commentary on Daniel 11 that will intepret the history for you -- that is why I have not posted it here myself.

 

BTW take the word "Hellenistic." The actual name of Greece is Hellas, not "Greece."  (Germany is not the name of the country, but Deutschland -- those the Spanish call it Alemania!)



#5
kingdomwitness

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There is also a time gap in Daniel 11. In verse 40 or so, it says that at the "Time of the end" the king of the South and the North will still war against each other. How is this happening in our time please?

#6
Bible_Gazer

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you might read this

http://www.angelfire.../daniel-11.html

#7
EnochBethany

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There is also a time gap in Daniel 11. In verse 40 or so, it says that at the "Time of the end" the king of the South and the North will still war against each other. How is this happening in our time please?

"How is this happening in our time please?"

 

It is  not happening in our time.  Have you heard of "newspaper exegesis"?  That is taking the lastest headline & then trumpeting that this headline fulfills prophecy. 

 

Pardon the rant that follows, I don't mean to imply that you are doing this:

 

So if any earthquake comes, the pulpit is thumped over Mat 24, earthquakes in diverse places.  Then when a famine is reported, the TV pulpit is thumped:  "See there, a famine, just like the Olivet Discourse; why that is the Black Horse!"  IMHO, this has been going on for centuries upon centuries; & such newspaper prophets look ridiculous eventually.  I recall how they went on & on about the year 2000.  The Signs of Mat 24 are signs, that is miraculous occurrences, not the regular occurrences of history.  Some earthquake somewhere along a fault line has no sign value at all -- it is just regular history.  I think some were guilty of newspaper exegesis on Saddam Hussein & the alleged rebuilding of Babylon.  Fixating on this or that person & alleging that he is the beast, can be real folly.

 

On the other hand, I think one would be blind not to recognize fulfilled prophecy in the return of the Jews to Israel.  But it is injurious to Christian testimony to twist Bible passage & jump to conclusions from the latest newspaper headlines -- not that you are doing it.
 



#8
EnochBethany

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thanks for a great link.  It looks to be a very sound interpetation.  However, the interpretation of 11:36 ff about the king doing according to his own will, is not certain to myself.  I was taught that here is a new character, the willful king = the Land Beast of Rev 13, which means a jump in time.  I am not sure about this myself.  I do know that by the time you get to Dan 12 there has been a big time jump to the Trib, etc.

I, myself, am not sure where to draw the line.

 

As to Gaius Popillius Laenas "a representative of Rome, met with Antiochus IV and ordered him out of Egypt on the authority of Rome," this story is in Polybius (2nd century BC historian) & is quite entertaining.  It is like Antiochus IV told Polillius:

"I'll think about it," to which ol Polillius took a stick & drew a circle around Ant IV in the sand, and said, "Fine, but give me your answer before you step out of this circle." 

Whereupon it seems that Ant IV had like a parasympathetic fear reaction which I cannot mention here.






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