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Creating Evil and darkness

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Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

 

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I would say it's Him saying He created it because He wrote the moral laws.  He also created the universe and with it was darkness until He spoke light into existence.  But God is light and love and the absence of God is darkness and evil. 

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I would say it's Him saying He created it because He wrote the moral laws.  He also created the universe and with it was darkness until He spoke light into existence.  But God is light and love and the absence of God is darkness and evil. 

 

This is one of those things that we will never have a good answer to on this side of Heave, but...if God created the universe and God is Light and God is everywhere, why was the universe dark?

 

Or, was just the earth in the dark?   Verse 2 speaks of the earth and verse 3 is God calling in light.  hmmmm

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Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

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Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

 

 

So, does God create moral evil?

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Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

 

 

So, does God create moral evil?

 

No, God doesn't create  moral evil and the passage isn't say that He does.  it simply means that God is sovereign over all that happens. 

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Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

 

 

So, does God create moral evil?

 

No, God doesn't create  moral evil and the passage isn't say that He does.  it simply means that God is sovereign over all that happens. 

 

 

I could not agree more.  Good to know there is at least one thing we can agree on! :t2:

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Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

 

 

So, does God create moral evil?

 

No, God doesn't create  moral evil and the passage isn't say that He does.  it simply means that God is sovereign over all that happens. 

 

 

I could not agree more.  Good to know there is at least one thing we can agree on! :t2:

 

:biggrin2:

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yeah I agree that this is one of those things we will have to ask God when we get to Heaven.  There are a lot of things that atheists bring forth about God's nature.  Why does a loving God kill every living person and animal on earth except for who/what was in the Ark (if you believe in a literal flood).  Why does God allow earthquakes and tornadoes and every horrible disaster?  Why didn't God stop 9/11 from happening?  I was angry at God when my dad was killed in a work accident. 

 

A lot of things that happen we would consider evil.  Why would God allow the things the devil did to Job?  I mean, how do we explain that God is love when He placed a wager on a man's life with the devil who tortured him in every way imaginable? 

 

But we're only looking at it from our own limited understanding and when we get to Heaven, our idea of what is right and wrong will probably be flipped upside down.

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yeah I agree that this is one of those things we will have to ask God when we get to Heaven.  There are a lot of things that atheists bring forth about God's nature.  Why does a loving God kill every living person and animal on earth except for who/what was in the Ark (if you believe in a literal flood).  Why does God allow earthquakes and tornadoes and every horrible disaster?  Why didn't God stop 9/11 from happening?  I was angry at God when my dad was killed in a work accident. 

 

A lot of things that happen we would consider evil.  Why would God allow the things the devil did to Job?  I mean, how do we explain that God is love when He placed a wager on a man's life with the devil who tortured him in every way imaginable? 

 

But we're only looking at it from our own limited understanding and when we get to Heaven, our idea of what is right and wrong will probably be flipped upside down.

 

 

========================================================================================

 

 

Why does a loving God kill every living person and animal on earth except for who/what was in the Ark (if you believe in a literal flood).

 

IMHO, Hybrids (SEE: Genesis 6).  Why wouldn't we believe in a Literal Flood?

 

Appears that scenario is gonna be a player again.....

 

(Daniel 2:43) "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

 

HE actually told us.....(Matthew 24:37) " But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

 

 

 

Why does God allow earthquakes and tornadoes and every horrible disaster?  Why didn't God stop 9/11 from happening?

 

(Genesis 3:17) "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

 

I was angry at God when my dad was killed in a work accident.

 

That is an Unimaginable Tragedy.

 

 

Why would God allow the things the devil did to Job?

 

A TEST....and is quite Profound and has far reaching affects for every Christian.  Unfortunately, those not reading their Bibles and understanding this most obvious FACT, will came Face To Face with this dilemma; Unprepared and Unaware....which is another Tragedy.

 

 

But we're only looking at it from our own limited understanding and when we get to Heaven, our idea of what is right and wrong will probably be flipped upside down.

 

Oh Yea!!!  We have No Clue concerning Perspective and this Life is less than a tiny puff of smoke compared to Eternity.

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Welcome to the thread Enoch. So, what is your view....does God create moral evil? Do you still believe He does or have you changed your view?

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Welcome to the thread Enoch. So, what is your view....does God create moral evil? Do you still believe He does or have you changed your view?

 

 

======================================================================

 

I'll bite.  Let me say this.  If I get a WHIFF of an Insult the conversation is over.  Kapish?

 

Don't know what you mean by "MORAL" evil?

 

As for the ESV translation....well that's just the RSV and I wouldn't go near it, see my discussion here:

 

 

GOD Created ALL Things.....

 

(John 1:3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

And,

 

(Isaiah 45:7) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

Light is not the absence of darkness and evil is not the absence of good or peace.  In other words, They each have their own Integrity and Characteristics.

 

 

Just because GOD created evil doesn't make HIM evil.  HE created Trees.......HE'S not a Tree.

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It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

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It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

How can God be the designer of everyting right down to atoms and molecules, but not create lying or murder?  Have you ever thought he created those so we can recognize the good He created?

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It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

How can God be the designer of everyting right down to atoms and molecules, but not create lying or murder?  Have you ever thought he created those so we can recognize the good He created?

 

I am not addressing whether or not God created lying or murder.   I am saying that THIS particular verse doesn't make the case that God created them.  It is a completely different issue that is being addressed.  Whether God created things like lying or murder doesn't even fit the immediate literary context. 

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It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

 

====================================================================

 

OK.  This starts to get into definitions of Evil and Good...they're not Tangible they're more or less Concepts. And I understand your comments from the "Specific" verse in Isaiah.

 

Light and Darkness are more tangible in a sense.

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

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It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

 

====================================================================

 

OK.  This starts to get into definitions of Evil and Good...they're not Tangible they're more or less Concepts. And I understand your comments from the "Specific" verse in Isaiah.

 

Light and Darkness are more tangible in a sense.

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

 

Well, in THIS verse, "light and darkness" are defined by "peace and evil."  It is a parallel structure that occurs in Hebrew poetic and prophetic genres.  

 

In this verse, "Light" is defined pleasant times of prosperity where good things are happening to you.    "Darkness" is defined by disasters and calamity brought on by the judgement of God, which is precipiated by man's disobedience.

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Well, in THIS verse, "light and darkness" are defined by "peace and evil."  It is a parallel structure that occurs in Hebrew poetic and prophetic genres.  

 

In this verse, "Light" is defined pleasant times of prosperity where good things are happening to you.    "Darkness" is defined by disasters and calamity brought on by the judgement of God, which is precipiated by man's disobedience.

 

 

 

===================================================================

 

Outside of the Isaiah Verse.....

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

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Outside of the Isaiah Verse.....

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

 

Darkness is the absence of light.   God never said "let there be darkness."   God spoke into the darkness and brought forth light and He was the source of it.  Light ultimately finds its source in God.

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Outside of the Isaiah Verse.....

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

 

Darkness is the absence of light.   God never said "let there be darkness."   God spoke into the darkness and brought forth light and He was the source of it.  Light ultimately finds its source in God.

 

 

 

I disagree, based on (John 1:3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

and

 

(Exodus 10:21) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt."

 

That Darkness in the Exodus passage is a Thing.... with it's own Integrity.

 

 

Minor issue however.

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Outside of the Isaiah Verse.....

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

 

Darkness is the absence of light.   God never said "let there be darkness."   God spoke into the darkness and brought forth light and He was the source of it.  Light ultimately finds its source in God.

 

 

 

I disagree, based on (John 1:3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

and

 

(Exodus 10:21) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt."

 

That Darkness in the Exodus passage is a Thing.... with it's own Integrity.

 

 

Minor issue however.

 

We will have to agree to disagree.  I feel you are going into a hyper-literal extreme on that.

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We will have to agree to disagree.  I feel you are going into a hyper-literal extreme on that.

 

 

 

==========================================================================

 

That's not a Problem.  I respect your thoughts on the matter and that goes without saying.  I will consider what you have said very carefully.

 

Thank You

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Welcome to the thread Enoch. So, what is your view....does God create moral evil? Do you still believe He does or have you changed your view?

 

 

======================================================================

 

I'll bite.  Let me say this.  If I get a WHIFF of an Insult the conversation is over.  Kapish?

 

Don't know what you mean by "MORAL" evil?

 

As for the ESV translation....well that's just the RSV and I wouldn't go near it, see my discussion here:

 

 

GOD Created ALL Things.....

 

(John 1:3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

And,

 

(Isaiah 45:7) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

Light is not the absence of darkness and evil is not the absence of good or peace.  In other words, They each have their own Integrity and Characteristics.

 

 

Just because GOD created evil doesn't make HIM evil.  HE created Trees.......HE'S not a Tree.

 

 

Thanks for the kind reply, I will attempt to respond likewise.

 

There are two sides to this in my mind, the biblical and the science.

 

Biblially I think we both agree that there are passages in the Bible that are figures of speech.

 

I would like to use another passage from Isaiah as an example..Isa 66:1

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

 

When I read this verse I do not believe it means that God literally has his feet propped upon the earth as He sits on heaven.  These are figures of speech, not meant to be taken as such. I believe that the verse you gave from Isaiah is the same,  I believe that Shiloh did a very good job explaining the grammar behind this verse.

 

I would also point to the creation account in Genesis 1.  We are told that God created the light, we are never told He did so with the darkness. 

 

As I go to the science, I would offer one correction, you said this...Light is not the absence of darkness.  That is the opposite of what I have put forth, but I will assume you just mistyped it. 

 

To the science...

 

First light...There are measurements of light, the Lumen for example.   For darkness there is no measurement and no way for science to measure it.  All that can be done is to measure how little light there is.  If darkness is a "thing.... with it's own Integrity" there would have to be a way for it to be created.  How would you create darkness?  Has anyone ever even tried to create darkness?  In science, darkness is nothing more than the absence of light.

 

One I left out above is cold, it is the same as darkness, and in my opinion the same as evil.  There is no measure of cold, only how much less heat there is.  When you make something colder, you do not add coldness, you remove heat. 

 

It is my opinion that evil is the same.  God made things in perfect goodness, evil is nothing more than moving away from this perfect goodness.  The further we view things as moved from good, the more evil we view them.  Hitler was "more evil" than Richard Nixon because what Hitler did was much further removed good that what Nixon did. 

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so other than lie to congress just what did nixon really do.

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so other than lie to congress just what did nixon really do.

 

Covering up a crime would on that list.  Honestly his biggest crime might have been being a paranoid idiot.  There was no reason to try and bug the Democrats, the Republicans at the time were having their way in the country and has just won a major blow out victory.

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