Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Creating Evil and darkness


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
33 replies to this topic

#1
LookingForAnswers

LookingForAnswers

    Senior Member

  • Seeker
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,169 posts

Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

 



#2
anthonyjmcgirr

anthonyjmcgirr

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts

I would say it's Him saying He created it because He wrote the moral laws.  He also created the universe and with it was darkness until He spoke light into existence.  But God is light and love and the absence of God is darkness and evil. 



#3
LookingForAnswers

LookingForAnswers

    Senior Member

  • Seeker
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,169 posts

I would say it's Him saying He created it because He wrote the moral laws.  He also created the universe and with it was darkness until He spoke light into existence.  But God is light and love and the absence of God is darkness and evil. 

 

This is one of those things that we will never have a good answer to on this side of Heave, but...if God created the universe and God is Light and God is everywhere, why was the universe dark?

 

Or, was just the earth in the dark?   Verse 2 speaks of the earth and verse 3 is God calling in light.  hmmmm



#4
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,804 posts

Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 



#5
LookingForAnswers

LookingForAnswers

    Senior Member

  • Seeker
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,169 posts

 

Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

 

 

So, does God create moral evil?



#6
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,804 posts

 

 

Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

 

 

So, does God create moral evil?

 

No, God doesn't create  moral evil and the passage isn't say that He does.  it simply means that God is sovereign over all that happens. 



#7
LookingForAnswers

LookingForAnswers

    Senior Member

  • Seeker
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,169 posts

 

 

 

Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

 

 

So, does God create moral evil?

 

No, God doesn't create  moral evil and the passage isn't say that He does.  it simply means that God is sovereign over all that happens. 

 

 

I could not agree more.  Good to know there is at least one thing we can agree on! :t2:



#8
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,804 posts

 

 

 

 

Isaiah 45:7

 

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. KJV

 

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. ESV

 

It has been put forth that God is the creator of evil, or that He creates evil based on this verse.  Now, I do not believe that this passage is speaking of moral evil, but putting that aside I would like to ask, how would one create "moral evil" or even darkness for that matter. 

 

It is my view that both evil and darkness are the absence of something, not a thing in and of themselves.  Evil is the absence of goodness and darkness is the absence of light.  When we make a room dark, we do not actually add darkness, we remove light.  We turn off the lights, we do not flip a switch and turn on the darkness.  There is no such thing as a "flashdark".

 

So, how is darkness created?

 

Evil is the same, when we speak of evil it is always measured by how far it is from our view of "good.  In the grand scheme of things God is pure goodness and anything moved away from His level has a taint of evil to it.  But God cannot create that evil, for him to do so, even if such a thing were possible, would mean that God had the capacity for evil.  The God of our Bible has no such capacity.

 

What you have is grammatical synonymous parallel where the first half is repeated, but in different words.  Light and darkness are the same as peace and calamity.  He is not talking about  light and darkness in the sense of the physical light and darkness that cover the earth.  Furthermomre "light and darkness,"  and "peace and calamity" are both merisms which express totality in terms of polarity.  

 

This is an expression of God's sovereignty over all that happens, good and bad. 

 

 

So, does God create moral evil?

 

No, God doesn't create  moral evil and the passage isn't say that He does.  it simply means that God is sovereign over all that happens. 

 

 

I could not agree more.  Good to know there is at least one thing we can agree on! :t2:

 

:biggrin2:



#9
anthonyjmcgirr

anthonyjmcgirr

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 208 posts

yeah I agree that this is one of those things we will have to ask God when we get to Heaven.  There are a lot of things that atheists bring forth about God's nature.  Why does a loving God kill every living person and animal on earth except for who/what was in the Ark (if you believe in a literal flood).  Why does God allow earthquakes and tornadoes and every horrible disaster?  Why didn't God stop 9/11 from happening?  I was angry at God when my dad was killed in a work accident. 

 

A lot of things that happen we would consider evil.  Why would God allow the things the devil did to Job?  I mean, how do we explain that God is love when He placed a wager on a man's life with the devil who tortured him in every way imaginable? 

 

But we're only looking at it from our own limited understanding and when we get to Heaven, our idea of what is right and wrong will probably be flipped upside down.



#10
Enoch2021

Enoch2021

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,723 posts

yeah I agree that this is one of those things we will have to ask God when we get to Heaven.  There are a lot of things that atheists bring forth about God's nature.  Why does a loving God kill every living person and animal on earth except for who/what was in the Ark (if you believe in a literal flood).  Why does God allow earthquakes and tornadoes and every horrible disaster?  Why didn't God stop 9/11 from happening?  I was angry at God when my dad was killed in a work accident. 

 

A lot of things that happen we would consider evil.  Why would God allow the things the devil did to Job?  I mean, how do we explain that God is love when He placed a wager on a man's life with the devil who tortured him in every way imaginable? 

 

But we're only looking at it from our own limited understanding and when we get to Heaven, our idea of what is right and wrong will probably be flipped upside down.

 

 

========================================================================================

 

 

Why does a loving God kill every living person and animal on earth except for who/what was in the Ark (if you believe in a literal flood).

 

IMHO, Hybrids (SEE: Genesis 6).  Why wouldn't we believe in a Literal Flood?

 

Appears that scenario is gonna be a player again.....

 

(Daniel 2:43) "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

 

HE actually told us.....(Matthew 24:37) " But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

 

 

 

Why does God allow earthquakes and tornadoes and every horrible disaster?  Why didn't God stop 9/11 from happening?

 

(Genesis 3:17) "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

 

I was angry at God when my dad was killed in a work accident.

 

That is an Unimaginable Tragedy.

 

 

Why would God allow the things the devil did to Job?

 

A TEST....and is quite Profound and has far reaching affects for every Christian.  Unfortunately, those not reading their Bibles and understanding this most obvious FACT, will came Face To Face with this dilemma; Unprepared and Unaware....which is another Tragedy.

 

 

But we're only looking at it from our own limited understanding and when we get to Heaven, our idea of what is right and wrong will probably be flipped upside down.

 

Oh Yea!!!  We have No Clue concerning Perspective and this Life is less than a tiny puff of smoke compared to Eternity.



#11
LookingForAnswers

LookingForAnswers

    Senior Member

  • Seeker
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,169 posts
Welcome to the thread Enoch. So, what is your view....does God create moral evil? Do you still believe He does or have you changed your view?

#12
Enoch2021

Enoch2021

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,723 posts

Welcome to the thread Enoch. So, what is your view....does God create moral evil? Do you still believe He does or have you changed your view?

 

 

======================================================================

 

I'll bite.  Let me say this.  If I get a WHIFF of an Insult the conversation is over.  Kapish?

 

Don't know what you mean by "MORAL" evil?

 

As for the ESV translation....well that's just the RSV and I wouldn't go near it, see my discussion here: http://www.worthychr...15#entry2066861

 

 

GOD Created ALL Things.....

 

(John 1:3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

And,

 

(Isaiah 45:7) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

Light is not the absence of darkness and evil is not the absence of good or peace.  In other words, They each have their own Integrity and Characteristics.

 

 

Just because GOD created evil doesn't make HIM evil.  HE created Trees.......HE'S not a Tree.



#13
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,804 posts

It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.



#14
jerryR34

jerryR34

    Veteran Member

  • Nonbeliever
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 712 posts

It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

How can God be the designer of everyting right down to atoms and molecules, but not create lying or murder?  Have you ever thought he created those so we can recognize the good He created?



#15
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,804 posts

 

It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

How can God be the designer of everyting right down to atoms and molecules, but not create lying or murder?  Have you ever thought he created those so we can recognize the good He created?

 

I am not addressing whether or not God created lying or murder.   I am saying that THIS particular verse doesn't make the case that God created them.  It is a completely different issue that is being addressed.  Whether God created things like lying or murder doesn't even fit the immediate literary context. 



#16
Enoch2021

Enoch2021

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,723 posts

It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

 

====================================================================

 

OK.  This starts to get into definitions of Evil and Good...they're not Tangible they're more or less Concepts. And I understand your comments from the "Specific" verse in Isaiah.

 

Light and Darkness are more tangible in a sense.

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?



#17
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,804 posts

 

It is important to understand that in Hebrew "evil"  doesn't necessarily refer to an evil deed like lying, murder, etc.   "Evil" can refer to anything unpleasant.  An unpleasant circumstance.   If one were to get sick, in Hebrew, that would be "evil."  Stubbing your toe on the door would be "evil."   "Evil" has a much more nuanced usage in Hebrew and so the context must be applied to know which nuance is being employed by the writer.

 

In Isaiah 45:7,  it cannot mean that God created or creates "evil" in the sense of sin.  God did not create lying or murder, for example.   The context demands we understand "evil" to refer to the natural disasters that come about by God's judgment.   God is declaring His sovereign right as judge over all people.   And He takes responsibility for the catastrophes He causes in judgment when men are disobedient.

 

====================================================================

 

OK.  This starts to get into definitions of Evil and Good...they're not Tangible they're more or less Concepts. And I understand your comments from the "Specific" verse in Isaiah.

 

Light and Darkness are more tangible in a sense.

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

 

Well, in THIS verse, "light and darkness" are defined by "peace and evil."  It is a parallel structure that occurs in Hebrew poetic and prophetic genres.  

 

In this verse, "Light" is defined pleasant times of prosperity where good things are happening to you.    "Darkness" is defined by disasters and calamity brought on by the judgement of God, which is precipiated by man's disobedience.



#18
Enoch2021

Enoch2021

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,723 posts

Well, in THIS verse, "light and darkness" are defined by "peace and evil."  It is a parallel structure that occurs in Hebrew poetic and prophetic genres.  

 

In this verse, "Light" is defined pleasant times of prosperity where good things are happening to you.    "Darkness" is defined by disasters and calamity brought on by the judgement of God, which is precipiated by man's disobedience.

 

 

 

===================================================================

 

Outside of the Isaiah Verse.....

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?



#19
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,804 posts

 

Outside of the Isaiah Verse.....

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

 

Darkness is the absence of light.   God never said "let there be darkness."   God spoke into the darkness and brought forth light and He was the source of it.  Light ultimately finds its source in God.



#20
Enoch2021

Enoch2021

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,723 posts

 

 

Outside of the Isaiah Verse.....

 

Is Light the Absence of Darkness?  Or do both have their Individual Integrity?

 

Darkness is the absence of light.   God never said "let there be darkness."   God spoke into the darkness and brought forth light and He was the source of it.  Light ultimately finds its source in God.

 

 

 

I disagree, based on (John 1:3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

and

 

(Exodus 10:21) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt."

 

That Darkness in the Exodus passage is a Thing.... with it's own Integrity.

 

 

Minor issue however.






Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network