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Which Resurrection?

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#1
Hindsfeet

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 I am pre-wrath, I have not 'taken sides' and find myself both disappointed and amused at the same time watching the arguments fly about. However, for the following, I would be interested in all povs and interpretations on these verses, respectfully of course, i ask.

 

Dan 12:1-3

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

 

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever
   

 

When I read this, it does not fall into my understandings of the First Resurrection, nor the Second Resurrection based on Rev 20. Perhaps I am missing a few things.

Is this a whole separate Resurrection?

 

Pre-trib - 'and the dead in Christ shall rise first'  perhaps the 'shame and everlasting contempt' is as the outer heaven and gnashing of teeth because one didnt serve as one should/could have? Also, how could this be a secret rapture if people are shining like the stars and firmament?

 

Post-trib - This reads to me that there is a resurrection of sorts at the beginning of the Great tribulation, prior to the last trumpet judgement, thoughts?

 

I have a million other questions/arguments regarding this verse and both POV's, but lets just stick with this description of a Resurrection.

Just trying to gain knowledge and understanding, not cause division, this is a learning opportunity.

Yanno what, maybe we are just All right!

 

 



#2
OneLight

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How does this point to any specific time?  I don't see it.



#3
Hindsfeet

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"and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was" - Great Tribulation

"and at that time thy people shall be delivered"



#4
rollinTHUNDER

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I am pre-wrath, I have not 'taken sides' and find myself both disappointed and amused at the same time watching the arguments fly about. However, for the following, I would be interested in all povs and interpretations on these verses, respectfully of course, i ask.
 
Dan 12:1-3
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
 
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
 
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever
   
 
When I read this, it does not fall into my understandings of the First Resurrection, nor the Second Resurrection based on Rev 20. Perhaps I am missing a few things.
Is this a whole separate Resurrection?
 
Pre-trib - 'and the dead in Christ shall rise first'  perhaps the 'shame and everlasting contempt' is as the outer heaven and gnashing of teeth because one didnt serve as one should/could have? Also, how could this be a secret rapture if people are shining like the stars and firmament?
 
Post-trib - This reads to me that there is a resurrection of sorts at the beginning of the Great tribulation, prior to the last trumpet judgement, thoughts?
 
I have a million other questions/arguments regarding this verse and both POV's, but lets just stick with this description of a Resurrection.
Just trying to gain knowledge and understanding, not cause division, this is a learning opportunity.
Yanno what, maybe we are just All right!


Hi Hindsfeet,

Now you're getting into my specialty. :mgcheerful:

This is both the first and second resurrections. However, Daniel did not know several things. He did not know these resurrections would be separated by a thousand years. He knew nothing about the millennial reign of Christ or the Church. He did not know Messiah would die for the sins of the world, etc..... But the Jews did believe in the resurrection and prepared the bodies of the dead for the resurrection.

They had no knowledge of the rapture either, for Christ had not yet come, which is why Daniel was told to shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end...in the very next verse. The rest of this truth was beyond his comprehension, so the prophecy was stopped there, to be continued later. So knowledge would increase when the New Testament was written.

It was none other than Christ, Himself that continued Daniels prophecy, beginning at (Matt.24:15). This prophecy was not very helpful to Daniel, but it is very helpful for those who will be living at the time of the end. If you'll look back to Daniel 11:36, that is the abomination of desolation. Thus, the time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation in Dan. 12:1, is known today as the great tribulation (Matt. 24:21).

So it was Christ, Himself that continued Daniel's prophecy, but to understand it completely, we must add them together. Daniel mentions the dead and Christ mentions those who are alive at the time of the end. If you add what Daniel said about the dead rising, to what Christ said about gathering His elect, it equals what Paul said in 1 Thes. 4:16-17.

Cheers



#5
Montana Marv

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Hindsfeet

 

There are only 2 Resurrections.  One is for the Just, Jesus Christ being the first fruit.  The other is for the Unjust, the beast and the false prophet being the first fruits.  Scripture does not say there is only an entry "all inclusive at the same time", "once and for all" entry into either of them.  On the contrary.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#6
Hindsfeet

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I was just about to say that I am starting to see the logic in a 'secret rapture' - not actually being one of the Resurrections, but now that just went out the window (I've travelled this exact same path before!). Yes, Christ the Firstfruits, and every man in his own order at His coming.

 

I soo want to believe in pre-trib, However, I just cannot justify/gain enough evidence for it scripturally to line up my head knowledge.

 

 

I cannot differentiate the Resurrections and the Comings.


Edited by Hindsfeet, 21 March 2014 - 11:48 AM.


#7
Montana Marv

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A Resurrection is a destination or home for eternity.  A home for the Just (in Heaven with Jesus), and a home for the Unjust (Lake of Fire).

 

The dead in Christ rise first, then immediately after those alive in Christ meet with them in the air.  Those "in Christ" are those filled with the HS.

 

Now when do we receive our glorified bodies. 1 Thes 4:14 - We believe Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  Here the bodies of the dead in Christ are joining their own spirits which have been in heaven with Jesus.  The two shall be one Glorified body (body and soul).  Yet we who are still alive in Christ will met them in the air (to receive our own Glorified Body).  This is a segment of the Resurrection for the Just.  The Bride goes first.

 

The only unknown time this can happen is pre-70th week.  We do not know when this time will start, but we do know what follows during the time of the 70th week.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#8
rollinTHUNDER

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A Resurrection is a destination or home for eternity.  A home for the Just (in Heaven with Jesus), and a home for the Unjust (Lake of Fire).
 
The dead in Christ rise first, then immediately after those alive in Christ meet with them in the air.  Those "in Christ" are those filled with the HS.
 
Now when do we receive our glorified bodies. 1 Thes 4:14 - We believe Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  Here the bodies of the dead in Christ are joining their own spirits which have been in heaven with Jesus.  The two shall be one Glorified body (body and soul).  Yet we who are still alive in Christ will met them in the air (to receive our own Glorified Body).  This is a segment of the Resurrection for the Just.  The Bride goes first.
 
The only unknown time this can happen is pre-70th week.  We do not know when this time will start, but we do know what follows during the time of the 70th week.
 
In Christ
Montana Marv


I just love how you fail to quote me or address anything I said in my post. Instead you evade it, while building your own case using assumptions about what you think I believe. Unbelievable! But if my theory is as predictable as you claim, what day do you think I believe the rapture will occur, just out of curiosity?

#9
Hindsfeet

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A Resurrection is a destination or home for eternity.  A home for the Just (in Heaven with Jesus), and a home for the Unjust (Lake of Fire).
 
The dead in Christ rise first, then immediately after those alive in Christ meet with them in the air.  Those "in Christ" are those filled with the HS.
 
Now when do we receive our glorified bodies. 1 Thes 4:14 - We believe Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  Here the bodies of the dead in Christ are joining their own spirits which have been in heaven with Jesus.  The two shall be one Glorified body (body and soul).  Yet we who are still alive in Christ will met them in the air (to receive our own Glorified Body).  This is a segment of the Resurrection for the Just.  The Bride goes first.
 
The only unknown time this can happen is pre-70th week.  We do not know when this time will start, but we do know what follows during the time of the 70th week.
 
In Christ
Montana Marv


I just love how you fail to quote me or address anything I said in my post. Instead you evade it, while building your own case using assumptions about what you think I believe. Unbelievable! But if my theory is as predictable as you claim, what day do you think I believe the rapture will occur, just out of curiosity?

 

Rolling,

 

Please be nice, I am trying to learn here from both sides of the fence.



#10
Hindsfeet

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Ok, so we would need these glorified bodies in order to return as Christs army, yes <physical and spiritual, correct?> but where/what does this physical/immortal body do until we return? Oh, maybe this is the Wedding and Tabernacles, etc?

 

This cannot be the First resurrection of the just, it Must be something else.



#11
Hindsfeet

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Thunder -

I'm trying to digest what you shared. Thank you for some new insight/understanding about Daniel.

So, you are saying this is the First resurrection, which takes
place upon the time of the Abomination, where  Christ comes with a shout....
and the dead in Christ rise first.
So, you agree with me that Daniels statement 'some to everlasting life
and some to everlasting contempt' - is the same as This resurrection and not two separate? Or are you saying
Daniel just clumped them both into one sentence, not yet knowing.

You also mention the gathering of His elect being equivalent to 1 Thes 4:16
However,

2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (Abomination) whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
and signs and lying wonders,

So His coming upon which the Wicked one is destroyed is a separate 'coming' event than the I Thess 4 with the gathering?


Edited by Hindsfeet, 21 March 2014 - 01:27 PM.


#12
rollinTHUNDER

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A Resurrection is a destination or home for eternity.  A home for the Just (in Heaven with Jesus), and a home for the Unjust (Lake of Fire).
 
The dead in Christ rise first, then immediately after those alive in Christ meet with them in the air.  Those "in Christ" are those filled with the HS.
 
Now when do we receive our glorified bodies. 1 Thes 4:14 - We believe Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  Here the bodies of the dead in Christ are joining their own spirits which have been in heaven with Jesus.  The two shall be one Glorified body (body and soul).  Yet we who are still alive in Christ will met them in the air (to receive our own Glorified Body).  This is a segment of the Resurrection for the Just.  The Bride goes first.
 
The only unknown time this can happen is pre-70th week.  We do not know when this time will start, but we do know what follows during the time of the 70th week.
 
In Christ
Montana Marv


I just love how you fail to quote me or address anything I said in my post. Instead you evade it, while building your own case using assumptions about what you think I believe. Unbelievable! But if my theory is as predictable as you claim, what day do you think I believe the rapture will occur, just out of curiosity?

Rolling,
 
Please be nice, I am trying to learn here from both sides of the fence.


Oops! Disregard, I was busy multi-tasking and posted in the wrong thread.

#13
Montana Marv

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A Resurrection is a destination or home for eternity.  A home for the Just (in Heaven with Jesus), and a home for the Unjust (Lake of Fire).
 
The dead in Christ rise first, then immediately after those alive in Christ meet with them in the air.  Those "in Christ" are those filled with the HS.
 
Now when do we receive our glorified bodies. 1 Thes 4:14 - We believe Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  Here the bodies of the dead in Christ are joining their own spirits which have been in heaven with Jesus.  The two shall be one Glorified body (body and soul).  Yet we who are still alive in Christ will met them in the air (to receive our own Glorified Body).  This is a segment of the Resurrection for the Just.  The Bride goes first.
 
The only unknown time this can happen is pre-70th week.  We do not know when this time will start, but we do know what follows during the time of the 70th week.
 
In Christ
Montana Marv


I just love how you fail to quote me or address anything I said in my post. Instead you evade it, while building your own case using assumptions about what you think I believe. Unbelievable! But if my theory is as predictable as you claim, what day do you think I believe the rapture will occur, just out of curiosity?

 

Thunder

 

Matt 24:29,30 Immediately after the distress of those days; When the Sun and Moon do not give off their light,  they go dark and the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.  What follows?  "On that day" , "On that day", "On that day", of Zech.  The great distress of those days is Mid-Trib, after the A/D is set up and the final 3 1/2 years which follow it.  So my understanding would be; immediately after this great distress which is Post Trib.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#14
Hindsfeet

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In Pre-Trib, Is the Rapture considered the First Resurrection?

Or something else?

 

I can only conclude based on scripture that it is something else.

A Coming, a Revealing, a Harvest...............


Edited by Hindsfeet, 21 March 2014 - 02:00 PM.


#15
Montana Marv

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Ok, so we would need these glorified bodies in order to return as Christs army, yes <physical and spiritual, correct?> but where/what does this physical/immortal body do until we return? Oh, maybe this is the Wedding and Tabernacles, etc?

 

This cannot be the First resurrection of the just, it Must be something else.

What happened when Jesus was Resurrected.  His body which had hung on the cross and died then was buried for 3 days and 3 nights according to Scripture, did what?  He Arose from the dead.  He had a new incorruptible body.  He was the first fruit of this "body type"  He was flesh and yet spirit; one could put their hand into His side.  He could walk through walls.

 

A resurrection is to receive a new body which will be an everlasting body.  Thus a new body for what?  Eternal destruction in the Lake of Fire and an Eternal body for life with Christ in all eternity.  A new body for the Just and a new body for the Unjust.  Two Resurrections;

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#16
rollinTHUNDER

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Thunder -
I'm trying to digest what you shared. Thank you for some new insight/understanding about Daniel.

So, you are saying this is the First resurrection, which takes
place upon the time of the Abomination, where  Christ comes with a shout....
and the dead in Christ rise first.


The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. It began when Christ, the first fruits was raised from the dead. All of the righteous of all time will be included, everyone will go in their own order, including the righteous Old Testament saints as well, and it will end when the last martyr is killed. All of these will be raised up and reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom. This does not include the sheep, survivors from the nations that will re-populate the earth and be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ.
 

So, you agree with me that Daniels statement 'some to everlasting life
and some to everlasting contempt' - is the same as This resurrection and not two separate? Or are you saying
Daniel just clumped them both into one sentence, not yet knowing.


No, Daniel had no way of knowing that, just the same way that he did not know that Messiah would be crucified and return 2000 years later, which is why he was told to shut up and seal the words to this prophecy, for more knowledge would come later.
 

You also mention the gathering of His elect being equivalent to 1 Thes 4:16
However,

2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (Abomination) whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
and signs and lying wonders,

So His coming upon which the Wicked one is destroyed is a separate 'coming' event than the I Thess 4 with the gathering?


That is correct, the gathering of the elect is the rapture (includes both Matt.24:30-31 & 1 Thes. 4:17). Both happen after the time of trouble (Dan. 12:1) and after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29), when the days are shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22).

2 Thes. 2:8 is the second coming, which will come a little later. I hope that helps.

Cheers

#17
rollinTHUNDER

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I forgot to mention that the Old Testament saints are also in Christ. They were looking forward to the promises, while today, for almost 2000 years we New Testament saints are looking back at the cross, when the promise was fulfilled. For 2000 years the Old Testament saints sacrificed a lamb every year to forgive their sins. The lambs were a symbol for Christ, who died as the Lamb of God, once, for (ALL), including both Old and New Testament saints.

Cheers

#18
ENOCH2010

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I forgot to mention that the Old Testament saints are also in Christ. They were looking forward to the promises, while today, for almost 2000 years we New Testament saints are looking back at the cross, when the promise was fulfilled. For 2000 years the Old Testament saints sacrificed a lamb every year to forgive their sins. The lambs were a symbol for Christ, who died as the Lamb of God, once, for (ALL), including both Old and New Testament saints.

Cheers

Christ led all the old testament saints home at his resurrection. The next resurrection will happen at the second coming of Christ (called the first resurrection) then after the 1000 year reign, the second resurrection happens prior to the final judgment. That's what the Bible says, it's simple if people don't try to add a resurrection for the pre-trib rapture.



#19
Montana Marv

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Enoch

 

So the remnant of Israel (Zech 13:8,9) who are ushered into the 1000 year reign of Christ all become part of the Second Resurrection.   I never knew that.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#20
OneLight

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Not to butt in Marv, but how does Zech 13:8,9 point to the 1/3 as reigning with Christ in the millennium?






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