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TWO comings TWO raptures

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#1
ARGOSY

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This thread is just to highlight to pre-tribbers what they believe. They believe in a great repeat of a few events, firstly the rapture.... then again at the second coming:

1) THE TRUMPET
Pre-tribbers believe that at the rapture there will be the last trumpet call:
1 Corinthians 15: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

Yet pre-tribbers also agree that there will be another trumpet call at the second coming as described in Matthew 24, and also Revelation mentions 7 trumpets.

2) THE RISING OF THE DEAD:
Pre-tribbers believe the dead will rise at the rapture: 1 Corinthians 15: For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Pre-tribbers also believe the dead will rise at the second coming:
1 Corinthians 15: But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s AT HIS COMING.

3) RESURRECTION BODY
Pre-tribbers believe that the dead will not just become conscious, but will receive a resurrection body at the rapture, and also at the second coming. The context of 1 Cor 15 is all about the resurrection body, which occurs at the last trumpet.

Yet in Revelation 20 the first resurrection occurs after the tribulation.

4) RISING INTO THE CLOUDS
Pre-tribbers believe that Jesus will appear twice in the clouds to gather the elect, once at the rapture:
the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

and again at the second coming:
they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

5)DRAMATIC COMING OF JESUS

Pre-tribbers believe Jesus will appear at the rapture in dramatic fashion, with a shout, an archangel's voice, and a trumpet call - ie a very loud event:
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

Pre-tribbers believe the second coming will also be a dramatic appearance of Jesus, with power and glory and a GREAT trumpet call:
Matthew 24: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


In summary, pre-tribbers believe that at the rapture the dead will come alive, we will receive new resurrection bodies, Jesus will appear with the last trumpet call, amidst other dramatic events. The elect will rise into the clouds to meet Jesus.

Then at the second coming pre-tribbers believe the dead will come alive, there will be a resurrection, Jesus will appear at the last of seven trumpets, amidst other dramatic events. The elect will rise into the clouds to meet Jesus.


Have you ever considered that this is just one event....??

#2
Izzel

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This thread is just to highlight to pre-tribbers what they believe. They believe in a great repeat of a few events, firstly the rapture.... then again at the second coming:

1) THE TRUMPET
Pre-tribbers believe that at the rapture there will be the last trumpet call:
1 Corinthians 15: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

Yet pre-tribbers also agree that there will be another trumpet call at the second coming as described in Matthew 24, and also Revelation mentions 7 trumpets.

2) THE RISING OF THE DEAD:
Pre-tribbers believe the dead will rise at the rapture: 1 Corinthians 15: For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Pre-tribbers also believe the dead will rise at the second coming:
1 Corinthians 15: But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s AT HIS COMING.

3) RESURRECTION BODY
Pre-tribbers believe that the dead will not just become conscious, but will receive a resurrection body at the rapture, and also at the second coming. The context of 1 Cor 15 is all about the resurrection body, which occurs at the last trumpet.

Yet in Revelation 20 the first resurrection occurs after the tribulation.

4) RISING INTO THE CLOUDS
Pre-tribbers believe that Jesus will appear twice in the clouds to gather the elect, once at the rapture:
the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

and again at the second coming:
they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

5)DRAMATIC COMING OF JESUS

Pre-tribbers believe Jesus will appear at the rapture in dramatic fashion, with a shout, an archangel's voice, and a trumpet call - ie a very loud event:
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

Pre-tribbers believe the second coming will also be a dramatic appearance of Jesus, with power and glory and a GREAT trumpet call:
Matthew 24: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


In summary, pre-tribbers believe that at the rapture the dead will come alive, we will receive new resurrection bodies, Jesus will appear with the last trumpet call, amidst other dramatic events. The elect will rise into the clouds to meet Jesus.

Then at the second coming pre-tribbers believe the dead will come alive, there will be a resurrection, Jesus will appear at the last of seven trumpets, amidst other dramatic events. The elect will rise into the clouds to meet Jesus.


Have you ever considered that this is just one event....??

Many are so caught up in a fantasy world that they dont prayerfully research this topic

They even claim they had rapture experience in dreams etc .

Everyone is free to believe what they want but God word does not change

Hebrews 9:28
New International Version (NIV)


28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


The bible says there is one second coming


i am looking forward to here what pretribes have to respond to what you have presented


The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is compared with the unexpected house break-in of the thief at night. Those who teach the Secret Rapture say the Lord Jesus Christ will come as a thief in the night to snatch away true believers while others are asleep.


Matthew 24:42-43 Our Lord said, “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken in.”


These verses say nothing about the secret rapture, but only indicate Jesus will return like the thief who would come at an unknown and unexpected time. The warning is for Christians to be ready at all times.


1 Thessalonians 5:2 The apostle Paul wrote: “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.” This verse does not mean that believers would be raptured because if you read two verses below Paul gave the explanation. “But you, brethren, are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.” (1 Thes. 5:4) It says nothing about a secret rapture. Again, the message here is NOT that Jesus' coming will be secret, but that it will occur at a time when most will not expect it, therefore we must WATCH!


2 Peter 3:10 Here is a scriptural verse that completely destroys the secret rapture theory. “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” How can there be a secret rapture when “the heavens will pass away with a great noise”?



Those that with that adhere to the Secret Rapture doctrine describes it as The Great Escape from the Great Tribulation at the End of This Age. It is a very comforting doctrine and many hold on to it. Many believe that Jesus will secretly come and 'Rapture' His Church out of the Earth and take them back with Him to Heaven, either before the Tribulation (Pre-Tribulation Rapture), or half way through the Tribulation, the final three and a half years (Mid-Tribulation Rapture).


They believe that they will escape all the evils and horrors of the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ mark of the beast system, the plagues of God, the time of war and destruction on the Earth. In Heaven they enjoy the marriage supper of the Lamb with Jesus while those left on the Earth, who are saved during the Tribulation have to endure all the trials and suffering to the very end of the Tribulation.


After the Tribulation Jesus then comes back with His Saints, resurrects the remnant of His Church and they all reign with Him on the Earth or in heaven This is still to be debated for a thousand years. The fact is, that those who hold on to this belief will not be ready for what is to come upon them. They will not be ready because they have believed in a lie. The Beast system is unfolding before our very eyes and we are still hear! We have not been Raptured!


Thus they will take the mark of the beast and not know it


#3
Littlelambseativy

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The rapture is a silent event that only those who have accepted Jesus - those who have died from Adam on and those who are alive at the time will be taken and meet with the Lord "in the air". The first coming was when Jesus came to be born in human form. The second coming is when He comes with the heavenly host and the bride ( those 'raptured') to defeat those gathered against Israel and His feet touch the Mount of Olives. Those who died for accepting Jesus during the Tribulation will be resurrected at that time and reign with Jesus for 1000 yrs. but those who accepted the mark of the beast and died will be raised after the 1000 yr reign and after the judgement will be cast into outer darkness and Satan and his minions will be cast into hell.

 

Having read all your posts I understand that is not what you believe. I am sorry that you do not see it that way. Sit down with the Bible - not listening to those who have given you the information which you quote - but put in writing all the events in order as God leads you with open eyes and open heart from Matthew to Revelation and omit not the prophets.



#4
Izzel

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The rapture is a silent event that only those who have accepted Jesus - those who have died from Adam on and those who are alive at the time will be taken and meet with the Lord "in the air". The first coming was when Jesus came to be born in human form. The second coming is when He comes with the heavenly host and the bride ( those 'raptured') to defeat those gathered against Israel and His feet touch the Mount of Olives. Those who died for accepting Jesus during the Tribulation will be resurrected at that time and reign with Jesus for 1000 yrs. but those who accepted the mark of the beast and died will be raised after the 1000 yr reign and after the judgement will be cast into outer darkness and Satan and his minions will be cast into hell.

So you are saying no one accepts the mark of the beast before the tribulation ?

Will people be baptised during the tribulation to accept Jesus ?


Could you explain this verse ?
Revelation 15:6-8
King James Version (KJV)


6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

#5
Izzel

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The rapture is a silent event that only those who have accepted Jesus - those who have died from Adam on and those who are alive at the time will be taken and meet with the Lord "in the air". The first coming was when Jesus came to be born in human form. The second coming is when He comes with the heavenly host and the bride ( those 'raptured') to defeat those gathered against Israel and His feet touch the Mount of Olives. Those who died for accepting Jesus during the Tribulation will be resurrected at that time and reign with Jesus for 1000 yrs. but those who accepted the mark of the beast and died will be raised after the 1000 yr reign and after the judgement will be cast into outer darkness and Satan and his minions will be cast into hell.

 

Having read all your posts I understand that is not what you believe. I am sorry that you do not see it that way. Sit down with the Bible - not listening to those who have given you the information which you quote - but put in writing all the events in order as God leads you with open eyes and open heart from Matthew to Revelation and omit not the prophets.

So you are saying there will be three resurrection  :hmmm:

 

Resurrection 1   those who have died from Adam on and those who are alive at the time will be taken and meet with the Lord "in the air"

 

Resurrection 2  Those who died for accepting Jesus during the Tribulation will be resurrected at that time and reign with Jesus for 1000 yrs

 

Resurrection 3  . but those who accepted the mark of the beast and died will be raised after the 1000 yr reign and after the judgement will be cast into outer darkness and Satan and his minions will be cast into hell

 

 

 

 Dear friend where in  the bible says there will be three resurrection ? :confused:



#6
Littlelambseativy

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Read Rev. 20:4-6 The dead during the tribulation are part of the 1st resurrection. Rev. 20- 11-5 is the 2nd resurrection.



#7
Izzel

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If someone come in the first resurrection they are blessed death has no power 

 

You will be saying that the Church Rapture church has eternal life but those that came out of the tribulation has eternal life also but the bible is saying that only those that came in the first has eternal life  :confused:

 

 

Revelation 20:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



#8
Izzel

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Read Rev. 20:4-6 The dead during the tribulation are part of the 1st resurrection. Rev. 20- 11-5 is the 2nd resurrection.

 please re read what you posted my friend you are saying that there will be three ressurection 

 

There is only two resurrection 

 

John 5:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.These resurrection are a 1000 years apart 

 

Rev 20 :4-6 speaks about all God saints from Adam till probation is up in this time 

 

The mark of the beast is already here and alot  of Churches are following it Babylonanian doctrine 

the buying and selling will soon come into effect when food and stuff are really scarce 

 

 



#9
Izzel

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Read Rev. 20:4-6 The dead during the tribulation are part of the 1st resurrection. Rev. 20- 11-5 is the 2nd resurrection.

How can the dead during the tribulation be part of the 1st resurrection if the church is gone before the tribulation far less for the dead during the tribulation to be raised ?

The dead during the tribulation cannot be raised before the tribulation starts  :confused:  because they died during tribulation :confused:  



#10
Littlelambseativy

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Though they are separated by 7 yrs. they still reign with Christ because they were willing to die for Him during the tribulation  - they did not accept the mark of the beast. If you eat 1/2 of a cake one day and eat the other 1/2 another day are you not eating the same cake?



#11
Izzel

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Though they are separated by 7 yrs. they still reign with Christ because they were willing to die for Him during the tribulation  - they did not accept the mark of the beast. If you eat 1/2 of a cake one day and eat the other 1/2 another day are you not eating the same cake?

Thou art found wanting my friend this explaination does not make sense 

 

Jesus come for His church and the world will see when He comes and take His people 

 

The taking up of the saints happens at Jesus one and only second coming 



#12
Izzel

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Read Rev. 20:4-6 The dead during the tribulation are part of the 1st resurrection. Rev. 20- 11-5 is the 2nd resurrection.

Who are the elect of God spoken about in matt 24 ?



#13
Izzel

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Though they are separated by 7 yrs. they still reign with Christ because they were willing to die for Him during the tribulation  - they did not accept the mark of the beast. If you eat 1/2 of a cake one day and eat the other 1/2 another day are you not eating the same cake?

The Return of the Lord Jesus Christ is not invisible but   visible and audible, and there is no Third Coming
 
Thoses of the Secret Rapture teach there are two phases of the Lord’s Return.  In the first phase Jesus will come secretly to take believers with Him to Heaven, and in the second phase, which is after the Great Tribulation, our Lord will return with the saints.  Although they do not like to admit it but they are suggesting that our Lord Jesus Christ will have a Third Coming.  Where in the Bible does it say that?  
 
this theory of the Secret Rapture and the Third Coming is completely flawed.
 
  After the Lord Jesus Christ ascended to heaven the two angels spoke to the Lord’s disciples:  Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?  This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”  (Acts 1:11)  The next time when Jesus returns it will be in the same “manner” as he went up to Heaven.  Jesus ascended to heaven on the Mount of Olives openly and visibly.  When He returns it will also be openly and visibly, and certainly not in secret.
 
 This verse states very clearly that our Lord Jesus Christ will appear a second time.  “So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.  To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” (Heb. 9:28)  Christ’s appearance a second time is not a secret at all.  “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.” (Col. 3:4)


#14
Izzel

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The Lord Jesus Christ will come at the seventh trumpet with the last trumpet   Here is what the apostle Paul wrote: “Behold, I tell you a mystery:  We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Cor. 15:51-52)  “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mt. 24:31)  
 
There are seven trumpets mentioned in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 8:6).  From the first trumpet to the seventh trumpet the earth will be undergoing the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:7-13; 9:1-21). “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)


#15
Izzel

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1 Corinthians 15

1 Thessalonians 4 is the same event 

 

15:23 - are Christ’s at His coming

4:16 - the Lord Himself shall come

 

15:51 - sleep

4:14 - sleep

 

15:52 - the trumpet shall sound

4:16 - shout, voice, trump

 

15:52 - dead shall be raised

4:16 - dead in Christ shall rise first

 

There is no doubt these are the same event as they not only parallel each other but are even in the same order. There are not different aspects of the coming of Jesus. There is only one second coming and the saints would be taken up at that time 



#16
Parker1

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I don't think that pre-Trib believers need to be told what they believe. That is awful presumptuous. And the Rapture is one event, not two. But it is a waste of time to debate this issue with one who does not believe in the pre-Trib Rapture as everyone is positive that they are correct. That is all I have to say and won't be reading or replying any further. Good Day!



#17
bopeep1909

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I don't think that pre-Trib believers need to be told what they believe. That is awful presumptuous. And the Rapture is one event, not two. But it is a waste of time to debate this issue with one who does not believe in the pre-Trib Rapture as everyone is positive that they are correct. That is all I have to say and won't be reading or replying any further. Good Day!

:thumbsup:



#18
Izzel

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I don't think that pre-Trib believers need to be told what they believe. That is awful presumptuous. And the Rapture is one event, not two. But it is a waste of time to debate this issue with one who does not believe in the pre-Trib Rapture as everyone is positive that they are correct. That is all I have to say and won't be reading or replying any further. Good Day!

I dont think pre trib believers know what they believe 

 

Hope to see you all in the rapture  :hmmm:  after the tribulation  :clap:



#19
Izzel

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How can the tribulation saints be raised at the "first resurrection" if there will be a resurrection prior to the beginning of the great tribulation? If there is to be a resurrection of the saints before the resurrection of the tribulation saints, then the resurrection described in Revelation chapter 20 could not be the "first ressurrection" it will have to be the second 



#20
Littlelambseativy

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Pre trib rapture resurrection -part I

                                                            } Resurrection in 2 parts both believers one before trib the other after trib

Tribulation saints resurrection- part II

 

Then thousand year reign.

The dead from beginning of time to end of judgement who have not been resurrected, are judged and sentenced to eternal damnation.






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