Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums


Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

TWO comings TWO raptures

* * * * * 1 votes

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
167 replies to this topic

#1
ezekiel

ezekiel
  • Seeker
  • 55 posts
  • Gender:Male

Blessed be those left behind


  • 1

#2
MorningGlory

MorningGlory

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 33,809 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Houston, Texas

... beware the leaven.

 

... beware the winds of doctrine (convincing arguments that are as untrue as Satan is holy)

 

What?


  • 1

#3
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

For those wanting to make progress in understanding our Lord's Book of Revelation, it's important to realize He was covering 7 main signs of the end, with three separate parallels. That can only be done once one discovers it's most important to understand each of the events of the seals, trumpets, and vials instead of trying to determine some numerical chronology with how John was given to see and write them down.

 

For example, our Lord Jesus on the 6th vial with Rev.16:15 is giving a warning to His Church on earth to keep their garments lest they walk naked, for He will come "as a thief". Only those of His Church have those garments, so He was not speaking to unbelievers. And the very next 7th vial is about the time of Armageddon, which is a "day of The LORD" type event, the day of His second coming.

 

By that He showed His coming to gather His Church on earth has still not happened yet on the 6th vial. And if you look at the type of events to occur on the 7th trumpet, 6th seal, and 7th vial, you'll find they parallel each other.

 

In Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, He covered 7 main signs that directly parallel the events of the seals in Rev.6. And the very last sign He gave was that of His coming and gathering of His Church after the tribulation.


  • 1

#4
rjp34652

rjp34652

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 480 posts
  • Gender:Male

This thread is just to highlight to pre-tribbers what they believe. They believe in a great repeat of a few events, firstly the rapture.... then again at the second coming:

1) THE TRUMPET
Pre-tribbers believe that at the rapture there will be the last trumpet call:
1 Corinthians 15: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

Yet pre-tribbers also agree that there will be another trumpet call at the second coming as described in Matthew 24, and also Revelation mentions 7 trumpets.

2) THE RISING OF THE DEAD:
Pre-tribbers believe the dead will rise at the rapture: 1 Corinthians 15: For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Pre-tribbers also believe the dead will rise at the second coming:
1 Corinthians 15: But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s AT HIS COMING.

3) RESURRECTION BODY
Pre-tribbers believe that the dead will not just become conscious, but will receive a resurrection body at the rapture, and also at the second coming. The context of 1 Cor 15 is all about the resurrection body, which occurs at the last trumpet.

Yet in Revelation 20 the first resurrection occurs after the tribulation.

4) RISING INTO THE CLOUDS
Pre-tribbers believe that Jesus will appear twice in the clouds to gather the elect, once at the rapture:
the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

and again at the second coming:
they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

5)DRAMATIC COMING OF JESUS

Pre-tribbers believe Jesus will appear at the rapture in dramatic fashion, with a shout, an archangel's voice, and a trumpet call - ie a very loud event:
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

Pre-tribbers believe the second coming will also be a dramatic appearance of Jesus, with power and glory and a GREAT trumpet call:
Matthew 24: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


In summary, pre-tribbers believe that at the rapture the dead will come alive, we will receive new resurrection bodies, Jesus will appear with the last trumpet call, amidst other dramatic events. The elect will rise into the clouds to meet Jesus.

Then at the second coming pre-tribbers believe the dead will come alive, there will be a resurrection, Jesus will appear at the last of seven trumpets, amidst other dramatic events. The elect will rise into the clouds to meet Jesus.


Have you ever considered that this is just one event....??

 

Has the reader ever considered that the rapture tale is just that - a fantasy?

 

No matter how the fans of the tale twist and misquote scripture to justify this aberration of Christian mythology, there are always ALWAYS logical errors in the theory.

The reason is that the whole bundle of rubbish is illogical, filled with pot holes that even scripture taken out of context cannot fill.

 

The whole thing was concocted by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century TO SELL BOOKS, specifically his rant about dispensationalism.   Rapturism has absolutely nothing at all to do with encouraging the body of Christ, hope in the resurrection of the dead or even as an affirmation of the second coming of Jesus Christ.

 

Did you catch that last part?   The rapture has absolutely nothing to do with the affirmation of the second coming of Jesus Christ.

 

In point of fact it CONFUSES the issue considerably.      

 

Where does confusion come from?   Three guesses it isn't the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Another gospel, perhaps?  Scripture forbids it, BTW.

 

Those that hold with the rapture myth fall into several camps.   In its simplest form the rapture involves Christ returning to earth at least twice.  In its more complex and deviated forms its got Jesus holding a picnic in the clouds somewhere while the world goes to hell in a hand basket - only to turn around and come back a third or forth time to judge those that weren't part of the party when the dinner bell was first rung.   If this isn't the epitome of absurdity, then I don't know what is.   In point of fact, the secular world considers this idiotic theme a reason for mockery of that which is otherwise the most logical and cerebral religion on the planet.

 

The rapture myth was born out of a desire for profit, not prophet and has flourished as most of the designs of the enemy often do - to obfuscate the gospel.

 

Do yourself a favor, pilgrim - drop the rapture myth into the garbage bin of religious mumbo jumbo and the idiocies of the past where it belongs.

 

Stand up with courage, and stop believing in the coward's gospel that God will come and take us out of the trouble He has promised multiple times to see us THROUGH.

 

Where's your faith?   If you believe the rapture, you have none, because you've allowed a stupid story to usurp your hope.....in Christ's sufficiency FOR TODAY and FOR ALL TIME.

 

The coward seeks a way of escape.   The faithful seek God's will be done, even if it means personal suffering.

 

Which is it, pilgrim?  You can't have it both ways, you know.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....


  • 4

#5
ENOCH2010

ENOCH2010

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 477 posts
  • Gender:Male

AMEN and AMEN brother rjp :clap:


  • 2

#6
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

There is no 'rapture' word in God's Word, but there is an 'harpazo' event of the gathering of Christ's saints, one group from Heaven and the other group from the earth. The word rapture originated from the Latin translation of Greek harpazo, to sieze.

 

For the saints still alive and who remain on earth when Jesus comes, how... will they be gathered to Him and His "asleep" saints that He brings with Him, per the 1 Thess.4 Scripture? I mean, the "asleep" saints and our Lord Jesus will be in the resurrection type body, which is what kind of body?

 

Like Apostle Paul showed in 1 Cor.15, and God showed in Isaiah 25, death will be swallowed up in victory on that day of Christ's return, also called the Day of The LORD. Paul showed that those on earth will be changed, "at the twinkling of an eye", but to what? To the "spiritual body" type that he taught in 1 Cor.15.

 

Per John 5:28-29, all... peoples on earth will go through that change on that day, both Christ's Church on earth and... the wicked also.

 

John 5:28-29
28    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

 

This is how Christ's saints on earth who are still alive and remain will be joined to Him and His resurrected saints coming out of Heaven to earth. It is also... how all those on earth will see Christ coming in the clouds.

 

On the day of The LORD, when Jesus returns, ALL will be in the Heavenly Millennium age, at an instant suddenly, with spiritual bodies. Because of not understanding this from God's Word, many have instead created all sorts of doctrines that will not fit what the Scriptures reveal on this. So denial of this coming change of our bodies, and being upon the earth with the Heavenly dimension revealed as per God's Word prevents all those theories of men about what happens on that day. That is what this Isaiah 25 Scripture is about...

 

Isa 25:6-9
6    And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7  
 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8    He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9    And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
(KJV)

 

Did you not know that is where Apostle Paul was pulling from when he taught about the resurrection and with what kind of body it comes within the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter? This is why the 7th Vial is poured out into the... "air". It represents this change at an instant suddenly on the day of Christ's coming, the Day of The LORD. At that point in time, on that day, death in the flesh will be over and no more. The only type of death remaining will be the "second death" per Rev.20, which is the destruction of one's spiritual body with soul into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.


Edited by Salty, 28 June 2014 - 03:53 PM.

  • 1

#7
Guest_Jesse_*

Guest_Jesse_*
  • Guests

Hi all .

 

I know it gets a bit confusing most of the times.

But it is very simple really.

Let me make it simple for you bro/sis.

 

1. Jesus opened the 7seals.The 6th seal is one before the 7th.

    this only tells us the signs before 7th trumpet,which is the coming.Nothing more.

2. The 7trumpets are 7angels with a trumpet in one hand, and a vial in the other.

3. The first one blows the trumpet and then pours out the vial on earth, and so on.

 

The first; 1/3 of green is burned,causing much pain. 

The 2nd; a mountian burning fell in the sea and 1/3 of the creatures in the sea died.and 1/3 of the ships

 destroyed.This caused the sea to become as blood of dead men.(black sludge).Rev.16:3.

The 3rd; 1/3 of the rivers became worm wood; poison water.

The 4th; 1/3part of the sun, moon, stars, smitten; a 1/3 part darkened.

The 5th; The bott.pit opened, and demons come out,to sting men, but men can not die, And have a king named abaddon or apollyon.

               The ones with the seal of God will not be touched.

The 6th; This is the gatherings of the armies to make war. This is the war of men against men(3rdww).This will start with the  

              destruction of the dome,by the false prophets armies.(the king of the Medes will stand up: iran and allies).

 The 7th; This is the appearing of the Lord in the clouds. Three frog like expressions will come out of the mouth

                of the dragon; beast(kingdom beast) and the false prophet, to gather both sides together to make

                war with the Lamb. This is the war of men against the Lamb. This is armageddon.

 

The beast and the false prophet will only have power for 3/hlf years,and for 3/half years israel will be trodden by the gentiles Rev11.

And also the two witnesses will be there to do the witnessing for 3/half years.Rev.11.

After 3/half years they will be killed,and left unburied for 3/half days.Rev.11.Then taken up.

Then that same hour, an earth quake in israel; 7000died. Then QUICKLY after;the 7th trump will sound which is the coming.

Babylon the geat will be destroyed in one day.Rev 18:8. The cities of the nations will be no more.rev.16:19. 

It will be heaps for the wild animals to dwell in.

 

Then the setting up of the kingdom of God;and the resurrected saints will rule over the chosen jews for one thousand years.

And they will be taught Christ. The left over gentiles, after armadeddon will be outside the kingdom and also taught by the jews.

With no satan around,just his angels to do the tempting. (jews and gentiles will multiply once more).

 

As you can see; its not hard.

 

jesse.     


  • 1

#8
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

Hi all .

 

I know it gets a bit confusing most of the times.

But it is very simple really.

Let me make it simple for you bro/sis.

 

1. Jesus opened the 7seals.The 6th seal is one before the 7th.

    this only tells us the signs before 7th trumpet,which is the coming.Nothing more.

2. The 7trumpets are 7angels with a trumpet in one hand, and a vial in the other.

3. The first one blows the trumpet and then pours out the vial on earth, and so on.

 

The first; 1/3 of green is burned,causing much pain. 

The 2nd; a mountian burning fell in the sea and 1/3 of the creatures in the sea died.and 1/3 of the ships

 destroyed.This caused the sea to become as blood of dead men.(black sludge).Rev.16:3.

The 3rd; 1/3 of the rivers became worm wood; poison water.

The 4th; 1/3part of the sun, moon, stars, smitten; a 1/3 part darkened.

The 5th; The bott.pit opened, and demons come out,to sting men, but men can not die, And have a king named abaddon or apollyon.

               The ones with the seal of God will not be touched.

The 6th; This is the gatherings of the armies to make war. This is the war of men against men(3rdww).This will start with the  

              destruction of the dome,by the false prophets armies.(the king of the Medes will stand up: iran and allies).

 The 7th; This is the appearing of the Lord in the clouds. Three frog like expressions will come out of the mouth

                of the dragon; beast(kingdom beast) and the false prophet, to gather both sides together to make

                war with the Lamb. This is the war of men against the Lamb. This is armageddon.

 

The beast and the false prophet will only have power for 3/hlf years,and for 3/half years israel will be trodden by the gentiles Rev11.

And also the two witnesses will be there to do the witnessing for 3/half years.Rev.11.

After 3/half years they will be killed,and left unburied for 3/half days.Rev.11.Then taken up.

Then that same hour, an earth quake in israel; 7000died. Then QUICKLY after;the 7th trump will sound which is the coming.

Babylon the geat will be destroyed in one day.Rev 18:8. The cities of the nations will be no more.rev.16:19. 

It will be heaps for the wild animals to dwell in.

 

Then the setting up of the kingdom of God;and the resurrected saints will rule over the chosen jews for one thousand years.

And they will be taught Christ. The left over gentiles, after armadeddon will be outside the kingdom and also taught by the jews.

With no satan around,just his angels to do the tempting. (jews and gentiles will multiply once more).

 

As you can see; its not hard.

 

jesse.     

 

Some of that is correct, some of it is not.

 

The opening of the seals is to give information about the end time events. It's part of the idea shown John that Christ only is worthy to open them. The seals of Rev.6 directly parallel the 7 signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Understanding what those seals are about is part of how one becomes sealed with God's seal for the end, by The Holy Spirit.

 

Jesus gave only 7 signs of the end in His Olivet Discourse, and that's what the seals, trumpets, and vials parallel in His Revelation, only those 7 signs. This is why events contained within the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial are all related to each other about His coming.

 

The loosing of the four angels bound at Euphrates is not the same meaning as the 6th vial gathering of the kings in prep for Armageddon. The locusts working is for the time of great tribulation, which is not a time of war, but of peace, a fake "Peace and safety" that will destroy 1/3 of men's souls using deception. Only the faithful of Christ's Church, His elect of both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles as one Body, that will make a stand to give a Witness for Him are sealed with God's seal in that time. Everyone else will be deceived.

 

When Jesus appears (only once), and gathers His Church on the day of The Lord, that is when all peoples on earth will be changed at the twinkling of an eye to the "spiritual body" type, the "image of the heavenly" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 pulling from Isaiah 25. There won't be any flesh death nor birth anymore at that point.


  • 1

#9
Guest_Jesse_*

Guest_Jesse_*
  • Guests

When Christ comes;he will be in the air for some time.While the angel is reaping the harvest rev14:14--20.

Giving the nations time to gather for the war agaist the Lamb.

Then comes the reaping of the ripe grapes, and put through the press.

This is armageddon.

This will take one day. Babylon will be no more in one day.rev18:8.

Babylon is this whole system of things. Not just the vatican.

We christians need to come out of babylon spiritually,and come into Zion the city of God.

Adopt the spirit of Christ,not the spirit of the world.

Come out of her my people.

 

We can see the falling away happening now,it will get worse.

Then the son of perdition will be revealed soon; with his lying wonders; he is using technology(2thes 2),

to aw the people of the world. We need to strengthen our foundation so we will not be deceived.

For even the very elect can be deceived.

 

Just to sit back and hoping to be saved or believing already saved, is a dangerous stand to take. 

We need not  fall asleep like the five virgins.

Knowledge is the stability of our times.

We need to dwell in the scriptures to gain spiritual strength.

Eat the flesh of Christ which is spirit and life.John 6:48--58.

 

Lay back christians will be caught by surprised.

Just going to church and sing songs is not accepted by God.

We need to show interest in finding the truth,the hunger for truth must be in the heart.

We are the church,and must keep it clean spiritually.

Thank you guys.

 

jesse.


  • 1

#10
Guest_Jesse_*

Guest_Jesse_*
  • Guests

The six seals.

1.White horse rider with a bow.= christianity spreading.The gospel preach unto all nations.

2.Red horse,peace taken from the earth,this means wars. great sword,means our great weapons of war.

   We dont war with bows and spears anymore.

3.Black horse,the earth is in spiritual darkness,and full of unanswered questions,and problems with no solutions. 

4.The pale horse: death, and plagues,this will be the days of the false prophet when he rules.also christians killed,chaos.

5.Or brothers that were killed in the past are given whote robes,

   and  must wait a little while, till their brothers also shall be killed, in the last day tribulation.

6.Showing the signs of the coming,which is the 7th trumpet; starting with the first.

7.The first trumpet.rev.8:7

 

Trumpet 1 2 3 4 5 6 .    In the 7th trump. the signs are as seal 6.   Great earth quake,sun black,moon as blood etc; 

                                                                                                         then the coming. 

 

jesse.


  • 1

#11
Montana Marv

Montana Marv

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,063 posts
  • Gender:Male

And who does Christ rule over with a "rod of iron" during the Mill. if all have received their new glorified bodies.

 

And who did Saul see on the road to Damascus at his conversion (was this also a coming of Christ) 

 

Christ came once as a suffering servant.  He will return as the Kings of Kings and the Lord of Lords.  Yet the Rapture is not a coming to earth, but a retrieval of the Bride (we meet Him is the Air) - (not on the earth).  And yet the five foolish virgins will be scratching their heads when the five wise virgins are gone.  So keep watch, for you do not know when the Bridegroom will come.  Five caught up, Five left behind to buy oil from others also left behind.  This does not fit the Post Trib man made theory very well.  Either it is all done at the end, or the end is not yet there.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


  • 1

#12
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

And who does Christ rule over with a "rod of iron" during the Mill. if all have received their new glorified bodies.

 

And who did Saul see on the road to Damascus at his conversion (was this also a coming of Christ) 

 

Christ came once as a suffering servant.  He will return as the Kings of Kings and the Lord of Lords.  Yet the Rapture is not a coming to earth, but a retrieval of the Bride (we meet Him is the Air) - (not on the earth).  And yet the five foolish virgins will be scratching their heads when the five wise virgins are gone.  So keep watch, for you do not know when the Bridegroom will come.  Five caught up, Five left behind to buy oil from others also left behind.  This does not fit the Post Trib man made theory very well.  Either it is all done at the end, or the end is not yet there.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The "spiritual body" is a body type, the "image of the heavenly", not the "image of the earthy". What is the "image of the earthy" we have? A flesh body.

 

Where Apostle Paul was pulling from in Isaiah 25 is about all peoples, all nations, having the vail cast over them removed. But Christ's Salvation involves one's soul putting on immortality. The souls of the wicked will not have put on that immortality. But they will put on the incorruptible type body, yet their souls will still be in a 'liable to die' state.

 

This is what Apostle Paul covered in the Greek of 1 Cor.15 when speaking that corruption must put on incorruption, and, this mortal must put on immortality. That's 2 separate changes to our being, not just one. The wicked will go through the first change, but not the second. This is why the wicked will still be subject to the "second death". It is why there can be such a thing as a "resurrection of damnation". You do understand the resurrection at Jesus' coming is not one to another flesh body, right? Even back in Eccl.12:5-7 we were shown exactly what happens at flesh death, with our flesh body going back to the elements of the earth where it came from, but our spirit going back to God. Or in 2 Cor.5 where Paul said if our earthy house is dissolved we have another house, a building of God, not made with hands (i.e., not flesh), but eternal in the heavens.

 

Per Zech.14, Christ's coming is back to this earth. Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the asleep saints with Him when He comes back to earth, and then gathers His elect on earth to be with Him, and those asleep saints, in Jerusalem. He is not coming to gather us to Heaven to wait out the tribulation, for that idea is not written, it is a doctrine of men.


  • 1

#13
Montana Marv

Montana Marv

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,063 posts
  • Gender:Male

Salty

 

Here is your quote from above (man made doctrine); Per Zech.14, Christ's coming is back to this earth. Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the asleep saints with Him when He comes back to earth, and then gathers His elect on earth to be with Him, and those asleep saints, in Jerusalem. He is not coming to gather us to Heaven to wait out the tribulation, for that idea is not written, it is a doctrine of men.

 

This position of yours is way off the mark.  John 14:2-4 negates what you have said.  In my Fathers house are many rooms, if it were not so, I would have told you.  I go there to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and [prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you my be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.

 

Lets put this in common sense vernacular.  In my Fathers house are many rooms, if this were not the case I would have told you so, but this is fact from Me to you the Bride.  I am going to my Fathers house to prepare a place for you My Bride, and I will come back and take you (Rapture you) to be with Me, that you may be with me in my Fathers house.  You know the way to the place where I am going (My Fathers house).  The Rapture brings us, takes us up to the Fathers house.  No where in Scripture do I see Christ coming to take us directly into the Mill, thus bypassing our time in the Fathers house.  The five wise virgins made it up into the Fathers house, and the door was shut.  The five foolish virgins were left to fight it out on earth during the 70th Week of Daniel.  I side with the five wise virgins who made it to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb.  Watch and be ready, because the Bridegroom will come at a time when no one expects Him.  Only the Father in heaven knows when this will happen.  Yet Post trib expects Him at the Second Coming.  Contradicts Scripture.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


  • 1

#14
Guest_Jesse_*

Guest_Jesse_*
  • Guests

To all.

 

Regarding the bride of Christ.

Holy Jerusalem will be on earth with christ ruling.Rev 21.

And his church is perfect and clean. Knowledge will cover the earth as the sea cover the earth.

All will know God. Blessed is he that is invited in.

When all His work is done on earth; God will take over the kingdom.

Jesus will be subject to God. God will speak face to face. His Word will be back inside God

as it was before the beginning;before creation;The word was God:   At creation; the Word was with God.

This is another topic.         John 16:27---- that I came out from God.

 

jesse.


  • 1

#15
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

Salty

 

Here is your quote from above (man made doctrine); Per Zech.14, Christ's coming is back to this earth. Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the asleep saints with Him when He comes back to earth, and then gathers His elect on earth to be with Him, and those asleep saints, in Jerusalem. He is not coming to gather us to Heaven to wait out the tribulation, for that idea is not written, it is a doctrine of men.

 

This position of yours is way off the mark.  John 14:2-4 negates what you have said.  In my Fathers house are many rooms, if it were not so, I would have told you.  I go there to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and [prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you my be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.

 

Lets put this in common sense vernacular.  In my Fathers house are many rooms, if this were not the case I would have told you so, but this is fact from Me to you the Bride.  I am going to my Fathers house to prepare a place for you My Bride, and I will come back and take you (Rapture you) to be with Me, that you may be with me in my Fathers house.  You know the way to the place where I am going (My Fathers house).  The Rapture brings us, takes us up to the Fathers house.  No where in Scripture do I see Christ coming to take us directly into the Mill, thus bypassing our time in the Fathers house.  The five wise virgins made it up into the Fathers house, and the door was shut.  The five foolish virgins were left to fight it out on earth during the 70th Week of Daniel.  I side with the five wise virgins who made it to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb.  Watch and be ready, because the Bridegroom will come at a time when no one expects Him.  Only the Father in heaven knows when this will happen.  Yet Post trib expects Him at the Second Coming.  Contradicts Scripture.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

My position is what God's Holy Writ teaches, now that clearly is 'off the mark' with doctrines of men that teach we're going to be secretly raptured to live up in the clouds during the tribulation, because Christ's coming like He said is after the great tribulation He warned about (Matt.24:29-31). The heavenly is going to be revealed on earth at His coming, which is why every eye shall see His coming per Rev.1. He only comes once for the end, not several times.

 

As for the John 14 verses you quoted, that word "mansions" (KJV) means 'abodes' per the Greek. It's about the abodes of the priests in the future Millennial temple mentioned in Ezekiel 40 forward. That temple is on the earth, even as areas like Engedi in the Middle East are shown in connection with God's River of the waters of life, and the tree of life (Ezek.47). In those Ezekiel 40 forward chapters, that Millennium sanctuary on earth is called God's House. That vision Ezekiel was given is what Apostle John was seeing in Rev.21-22, the Ezekiel one has more detail, for it reveals that River and the many trees exactly where it will be on earth.

 

But what the Pre-Trib Rapture school is teaching instead, is that prior to the tribulation we are raptured to Heaven by a secret coming of Christ, and live there waiting out the tribulation, and then reign from Heaven with Jesus. That is a doctrine of men that began in 1830's Great Britain. John Darby pushed that, as he got the idea from the Edward Irving church. Later proponents like Cyrus Scofield created a study Bible that pushed it in the Americas. Those ideas go opposite to God's written Word.

 

One example is how they completely mis-teach 1 Thess.4 where Paul said Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes. Bring them where, when Jesus comes where? For the Pre-trib theory to be correct it cannot have Christ Jesus coming to earth at all with His saints until after His Millennium reign, because per their man-made doctrines we're supposed to gathered to Heaven and reign in Heaven with Christ, right? But no, that isn't right. Jesus is coming here, to this earth at His coming, bringing those 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, and then His saints still alive on earth are changed and gathered with them, to go to Jerusalem on earth.

 

Like the angels in Acts 1 declared to Christ's disciples who watched Him ascend to Heaven, they said He will come "in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11). Zechariah 14 is another Bible witness to that fact and linked that timing with the 'day of The Lord' timing, which Apostle Paul also did in 1 Thess.5 with the idea of Christ coming "as a thief in the night."

 

What does the Pre-trib Rapture school teach about Christ coming "as a thief in the night"? They teach their members that's when Jesus will come to 'gather' them to Heaven, like your 'Bridegroom' not being expected statement.

 

Yet the Zechariah 14:1-5 Scripture has Jesus' feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives on the day of The Lord, bringing all His saints with Him. Apostle Paul linked the coming of the day of The Lord with the "as a thief" timing per 1 Thess.5. The Mount of Olives is where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1.

 

So all one need do is simply read and heed The Scriptures as they are written. The Pre-trib Rapture school is not doing that.


  • 1

#16
Guest_Jesse_*

Guest_Jesse_*
  • Guests

Christ is coming with His saints.

Who are these saints? They of course are the first fruits. see rev.14:1

The rest of the harvest will be harvested in rev.14:14--20.

First the harvest of the wheat, then stored first, untill the kingdom on earth is set up.

Next the harvest of the ripe grapes,and put through the wine press.(armageddon).

Blood will be flowing to a horse gridle. All that will happen after the tribulation; after the test, after the purifying.

After the saints have been given white robes,rev.7:9--14.

 

jesse.


  • 1

#17
Hindsfeet

Hindsfeet

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 227 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Question:

Does this view of the Seals and Trumpets being opened concurrently fall into and referred to as the 'post trib' view/belief?


  • 1

#18
Guest_Jesse_*

Guest_Jesse_*
  • Guests

Question:

Does this view of the Seals and Trumpets being opened concurrently fall into and referred to as the 'post trib' view/belief?

The two first seals has happened.The gospel has been preached in all nations.and the first and second ww.

The 3rd seal is happening now.This world is in darkness,physically and spiritually.The falling away is started.

The 4th seal is coming; the days of the rule of the false prophet.He will be revealed soon.

The 5th seal is just showing the marters of Christ in the past waiting for God's revenge.

And God said : wait a little longer untill all your brethren also will be killed.

This is coming. The false prophet will kill some christians, and many put in camps.

The 6th seal is just showing the signs of his coming,starting with the first trumpet to the last trump.

This is when we will see the sun darkened etc,etc,before the 7th trumpet.

At the coming;Chris will be in the air for a while to give the nations time to gather together to make war with the Lamb.

In the meantime the angel will do the reaping of the wheat.Rev.14:14--20.

Then another angel will do the reaping of the ripe grapes. The wine press is armageddon.

The armies of the nations will be buried in the valey of hinom(jehosaphat).east of Jerusalem.

 

jesse.


  • 1

#19
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

Christ is coming with His saints.

Who are these saints? They of course are the first fruits. see rev.14:1

The rest of the harvest will be harvested in rev.14:14--20.

First the harvest of the wheat, then stored first, untill the kingdom on earth is set up.

Next the harvest of the ripe grapes,and put through the wine press.(armageddon).

Blood will be flowing to a horse gridle. All that will happen after the tribulation; after the test, after the purifying.

After the saints have been given white robes,rev.7:9--14.

 

jesse.

 

That's that same doctrine of men called the Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory. It is not written in God's Word. You have the events out of order because that's what the Pre-Trib school teaches, not from God's Word.

 

Christ returns only once, on the Day of The Lord, as He said he comes "as a thief" per Rev.16:15. Apostle Paul and Peter both taught the Day of The Lord will comes "as a thief" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). The Day of The Lord events end the great tribulation timing Jesus spoke of. On that day, Jesus brings the 'asleep' saints with Him on His way back to this earth, and His saints alive on earth are changed "at the twinkling of an eye" and gathered with Him, then He and both groups go to Jerusalem on earth. As written in Rev.3, His elect saints rule on the earth, not from Heaven away from the earth. Armageddon happens on the 7th vial as written in Rev.16, which is Day of The Lord timing, the last day of this present world.

 

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctors are telling tall tales, mis-placing the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church, and the timing of the Day of The Lord, and where Jesus returns to with His saints.


  • 1

#20
Salty

Salty

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:I love God's Word The Holy Bible. My primary Bible is the good 'ole 1611 King James Version. I prefer the Majority Text of The New Testament used for the KJV above later translations from the Alexandrian texts like the NIV.

    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

Question:

Does this view of the Seals and Trumpets being opened concurrently fall into and referred to as the 'post trib' view/belief?

 

Not necessarily, because many who hold to post-trib also like pre-trib look at the seals, trumpets, and vials being chronological instead of in parallel.

 

Something to note, for 1,800 years, the Christian Church has held to a post-tribulation coming of Christ Jesus and gathering of His Church. Only in the 1830's did the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine become introduced in some churches, first in Great Britain.


  • 1




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2015 part of the Worthy Network