PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

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I have never understood the pre-trib position on these two chapters. To me they both indicate that the rapture occurs at the second coming after a time of trouble, I would just like pre-tribbers to explain how they interpret the texts. I generally believe the bible is better understood taking the more obvious reading of the text because it wasn't written for rocket scientists and Greek scholars, and so I'm really interested what you have to say:

This seems to be saying that pre-trib believers will get their relief/rest at the second coming on a day of vengeance and punishment for the ungodly:

2 Thess 1

we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe

This seems to be saying that gathering of pre-trib believers and the second coming are the same day of Christ, and only occur after the man of sin is revealed:

2 Thess 2

concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What say you pre-tribbers on these two chapters?

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Those that  with that adhere to  the  Secret Rapture doctrine describes  it as The Great Escape from the Great Tribulation at the End of This Age. It is a very comforting doctrine and  many hold on to it. Many believe that Jesus will secretly come and 'Rapture' His Church out of the Earth and take them back with Him to Heaven, either before the Tribulation (Pre-Tribulation Rapture), or half way through the Tribulation, the final three and a half years (Mid-Tribulation Rapture).

 

They believe that they will escape all the evils and horrors of the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ mark of the beast system, the plagues of God, the time of war and destruction on the Earth. In Heaven they enjoy the marriage supper of the Lamb with Jesus while those left on the Earth, who are saved during the Tribulation have to endure all the trials and suffering to the very end of the Tribulation.

 

After the Tribulation Jesus then comes back with His Saints, resurrects the remnant of His Church and they all reign with Him on the Earth   or in heaven This is still to be debated  for a thousand years. The fact is, that those who hold on to this belief will not be ready for what is to come upon them. They will not be ready because they have believed in a lie. The Beast system is unfolding before our very eyes and we are still hear! We have not been Raptured!

 

Thus they will take the mark of the beast and not know it 

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I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

2/3 Mankind there refers to the wicked  would you agree because the elect are on earth ?

 

The elect cannot be included in this :hmmm:  

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The Lord Jesus Christ will come at the seventh  trumpet   Here is what the apostle Paul wrote: “Behold, I tell you a mystery:  We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Cor. 15:51-52)  “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mt. 24:31)
 
 There are seven trumpets mentioned in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 8:6).  From the first trumpet to the seventh trumpet the earth will be undergoing the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:7-13; 9:1-21). “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)
 
Thus Jesus comes at the seventh trump with the last trump to resurrect the saints etc 
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Izzel

 

Yet, the last 3 Trumpet blasts are all Woe's to those who live on the earth  Rev 8:13b -  Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  I see a Woe zone ahead.  To the inhabitants of the earth.  Not some, but all the inhabitants.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Izzel

 

Yet, the last 3 Trumpet blasts are all Woe's to those who live on the earth  Rev 8:13b -  Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  I see a Woe zone ahead.  To the inhabitants of the earth.  Not some, but all the inhabitants.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Are the saints there during this time ?

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Izzel

 

Yet, the last 3 Trumpet blasts are all Woe's to those who live on the earth  Rev 8:13b -  Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  I see a Woe zone ahead.  To the inhabitants of the earth.  Not some, but all the inhabitants.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Are the saints there during this time ?

 

No the believers who went in the rapture are the Saints.They are in heaven.

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

 When the bible says we shall experience the wrath of God it means we will not be plagued 

 

Do earthquake, famine  and storms  happen are they for the righteous or the wicked 

 

Where are righteous people at this time

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

Who are God ancients ?

 

When does God roar out of Zion ?

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Izzel

 

Yet, the last 3 Trumpet blasts are all Woe's to those who live on the earth  Rev 8:13b -  Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  I see a Woe zone ahead.  To the inhabitants of the earth.  Not some, but all the inhabitants.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Are the saints there during this time ?

 

No the believers who went in the rapture are the Saints.They are in heaven.

 

Who are God elect in matt 24 ?

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I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The rule with a rod of iron cannot apply to demon and idol worship. Satan will be bound during this time and will have no influence on Earth.

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The elect of God is the church spoken about in matthew and throughout the bible 

 

 suppose for the moment that it did say: "After the tribulation period, God will send his angels to gather Christians in the sky?" Would you then accept the post-trib' position since the gathering, or rapture, is clearly said to occur after the tribulation?

 

 the use of the word  "elect" saints in the New Testament always refers to Christians

 

Romans 8:33, 16:13

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I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The rule with a rod of iron cannot apply to demon and idol worship. Satan will be bound during this time and will have no influence on Earth.

 

There will be people worshiping idols during the 1000 years 

 

Micah 4:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of theLord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of theLord from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.

5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

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I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The rule with a rod of iron cannot apply to demon and idol worship. Satan will be bound during this time and will have no influence on Earth.

 

where is satan army of fallen angels ?

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

Who are God ancients ?

 

When does God roar out of Zion ?

 

Hu :hmmm:

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 Matthew's post-tribulation gathering of the elect in the sky is of Jewish Christians only? :hmmm:  Or, if this seems unsound, are we to deny that the gathering takes place in the sky at all, as some pre-tribbers do, claiming that the atmospheric terms used are merely symbolic of a broad, earthly gathering of Jews? If the text could not be explained literally, a symbolic view would be called for, but as there will definitely be a literal gathering of Christians in and from the sky, no one has any right to suggest this text is anything but that glorious event.

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

Who are God ancients ?

 

When does God roar out of Zion ?

 

Hu :hmmm:

 

Psalm 50

King James Version (KJV)

50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

 

Isaiah 24:19-23

King James Version (KJV)

 

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

 

 

Does this sound like matthew 24 1 Theso 4 :clap: rev 19

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 Matthew's post-tribulation gathering of the elect in the sky is of Jewish Christians only? :hmmm:  Or, if this seems unsound, are we to deny that the gathering takes place in the sky at all, as some pre-tribbers do, claiming that the atmospheric terms used are merely symbolic of a broad, earthly gathering of Jews? If the text could not be explained literally, a symbolic view would be called for, but as there will definitely be a literal gathering of Christians in and from the sky, no one has any right to suggest this text is anything but that glorious event.

Everything you say regarding the end times seems unsound to me.

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

Who are God ancients ?

 

When does God roar out of Zion ?

 

Hu :hmmm:

 

Psalm 50

King James Version (KJV)

50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

 

Isaiah 24:19-23

King James Version (KJV)

 

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

 

 

Does this sound like matthew 24 1 Theso 4 :clap: rev 19

 

No... sorry no cigar   :mgclown:

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 Matthew's post-tribulation gathering of the elect in the sky is of Jewish Christians only? :hmmm:  Or, if this seems unsound, are we to deny that the gathering takes place in the sky at all, as some pre-tribbers do, claiming that the atmospheric terms used are merely symbolic of a broad, earthly gathering of Jews? If the text could not be explained literally, a symbolic view would be called for, but as there will definitely be a literal gathering of Christians in and from the sky, no one has any right to suggest this text is anything but that glorious event.

 

The "pre-tribulation rapture" is merely being gathered in the wilderness due to the fall of Mystery Babylon.  If you have seen the TV show Walking Dead, that is "the pre-trib rapture" - not flying away to heaven. 

 

Exodus 19

 

And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

Did God literally give Israelites wings to fly from Egypt?!  Of course not.  It is symbolic, but being in the wilderness is less so.

 

The "post -tribulation rapture" will be what it is.  When we die, I guess we fly up to the "tunnel of light".  Who knows.

 

Trumpet 1 is God's judgment with hail and fire.

Trumpet 2 is the fall of Mystery Babylon.

Trumpet 3 is the fall of "Mystery Edom"  (basically, whenever "Death" is referred to in Revelation, it is always says "Death and Hades" - Babylon is 'Death', Edom is 'Hades') the "burning torch" is equivalent to the "burning mountain" Jer. 51:25

Trumpet 4 (skipping this one since it means a few things)

Trumpet 5 5 months of 'locusts'/  1st woe

 

   ["after the tribulation of those days" we are gathered in the wilderness - Christ is deliberately generic because it's cyclical, there's no way to have 1 exact sequence)

 

Trumpet 6 starts the arrival of Christ (as per Psalms 68:17)  with a time-frame of 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour.  Start of 2nd woe

 

Then the beast has 1260 days (the end of which is the fall of 7 headed Babylon).  The 2 witnesses lie dead for 3.5 days.  End of 2nd woe.  If you added 490 more days (Dan 9's 70 weeks), you'd get Dan 8's 2300 days, when the "sanctuary is cleansed" (which is why Dan 9's 490 days is about "anointing a holy place").  This starts the 2nd fall of babylon, fall of edom, (beast and false prophet), the tribulation of "those days" where people are gathered again.  It's these repentant people who issue the "call to restore Jerusalem".  The people who were gathered in the wilderness the 1st time and didn't enter into worship of the beast system that arose would be the "Philadelphia church".

 

For the repentant, it starts the 490 day count.  For the non-repentant, it starts an unspecified amount of time (the "millenium") to suffer the 7 plagues.  This is a difficult concept to describe, which is why the 3rd woe is not exactly spelled out very well.

Edited by tranquil
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 Matthew's post-tribulation gathering of the elect in the sky is of Jewish Christians only? :hmmm:  Or, if this seems unsound, are we to deny that the gathering takes place in the sky at all, as some pre-tribbers do, claiming that the atmospheric terms used are merely symbolic of a broad, earthly gathering of Jews? If the text could not be explained literally, a symbolic view would be called for, but as there will definitely be a literal gathering of Christians in and from the sky, no one has any right to suggest this text is anything but that glorious event.

 

The "pre-tribulation rapture" is merely being gathered in the wilderness due to the fall of Mystery Babylon.  If you have seen the TV show Walking Dead, that is "the pre-trib rapture" - not flying away to heaven. 

 

Exodus 19

 

And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

Did God literally give Israelites wings to fly from Egypt?!  Of course not.  It is symbolic, but being in the wilderness is less so.

 

The "post -tribulation rapture" will be what it is.  When we die, I guess we fly up to the "tunnel of light".  Who knows.

 

Trumpet 1 is God's judgment with hail and fire.

Trumpet 2 is the fall of Mystery Babylon.

Trumpet 3 is the fall of "Mystery Edom"  (basically, whenever "Death" is referred to in Revelation, it is always says "Death and Hades" - Babylon is 'Death', Edom is 'Hades') the "burning torch" is equivalent to the "burning mountain" Jer. 51:25

Trumpet 4 (skipping this one since it means a few things)

Trumpet 5 5 months of 'locusts'/  1st woe

 

   ["after the tribulation of those days" we are gathered in the wilderness - Christ is deliberately generic because it's cyclical, there's no way to have 1 exact sequence)

 

Trumpet 6 starts the arrival of Christ (as per Psalms 68:17)  with a time-frame of 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour.  Start of 2nd woe

 

Then the beast has 1260 days (the end of which is the fall of 7 headed Babylon).  The 2 witnesses lie dead for 3.5 days.  End of 2nd woe.  If you added 490 more days (Dan 9's 70 weeks), you'd get Dan 8's 2300 days, when the "sanctuary is cleansed" (which is why Dan 9's 490 days is about "anointing a holy place").  This starts the 2nd fall of babylon, fall of edom, (beast and false prophet), the tribulation of "those days" where people are gathered again.  It's these repentant people who issue the "call to restore Jerusalem".  The people who were gathered in the wilderness the 1st time and didn't enter into worship of the beast system that arose would be the "Philadelphia church".

 

For the repentant, it starts the 490 day count.  For the non-repentant, it starts an unspecified amount of time (the "millenium") to suffer the 7 plagues.  This is a difficult concept to describe, which is why the 3rd woe is not exactly spelled out very well.

 

you mix up the 70th week which has already past   with revelation anyhow i am post trib 

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

Who are God ancients ?

 

When does God roar out of Zion ?

 

Hu :hmmm:

 

Psalm 50

King James Version (KJV)

50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

 

Isaiah 24:19-23

King James Version (KJV)

 

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

 

 

Does this sound like matthew 24 1 Theso 4 :clap: rev 19

 

No... sorry no cigar   :mgclown:

 

lets see shall we 

 

 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

 

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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 Matthew's post-tribulation gathering of the elect in the sky is of Jewish Christians only? :hmmm:  Or, if this seems unsound, are we to deny that the gathering takes place in the sky at all, as some pre-tribbers do, claiming that the atmospheric terms used are merely symbolic of a broad, earthly gathering of Jews? If the text could not be explained literally, a symbolic view would be called for, but as there will definitely be a literal gathering of Christians in and from the sky, no one has any right to suggest this text is anything but that glorious event.

 

The "pre-tribulation rapture" is merely being gathered in the wilderness due to the fall of Mystery Babylon.  If you have seen the TV show Walking Dead, that is "the pre-trib rapture" - not flying away to heaven. 

 

Exodus 19

 

And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

Did God literally give Israelites wings to fly from Egypt?!  Of course not.  It is symbolic, but being in the wilderness is less so.

 

The "post -tribulation rapture" will be what it is.  When we die, I guess we fly up to the "tunnel of light".  Who knows.

 

Trumpet 1 is God's judgment with hail and fire.

Trumpet 2 is the fall of Mystery Babylon.

Trumpet 3 is the fall of "Mystery Edom"  (basically, whenever "Death" is referred to in Revelation, it is always says "Death and Hades" - Babylon is 'Death', Edom is 'Hades') the "burning torch" is equivalent to the "burning mountain" Jer. 51:25

Trumpet 4 (skipping this one since it means a few things)

Trumpet 5 5 months of 'locusts'/  1st woe

 

   ["after the tribulation of those days" we are gathered in the wilderness - Christ is deliberately generic because it's cyclical, there's no way to have 1 exact sequence)

 

Trumpet 6 starts the arrival of Christ (as per Psalms 68:17)  with a time-frame of 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour.  Start of 2nd woe

 

Then the beast has 1260 days (the end of which is the fall of 7 headed Babylon).  The 2 witnesses lie dead for 3.5 days.  End of 2nd woe.  If you added 490 more days (Dan 9's 70 weeks), you'd get Dan 8's 2300 days, when the "sanctuary is cleansed" (which is why Dan 9's 490 days is about "anointing a holy place").  This starts the 2nd fall of babylon, fall of edom, (beast and false prophet), the tribulation of "those days" where people are gathered again.  It's these repentant people who issue the "call to restore Jerusalem".  The people who were gathered in the wilderness the 1st time and didn't enter into worship of the beast system that arose would be the "Philadelphia church".

 

For the repentant, it starts the 490 day count.  For the non-repentant, it starts an unspecified amount of time (the "millenium") to suffer the 7 plagues.  This is a difficult concept to describe, which is why the 3rd woe is not exactly spelled out very well.

 

you mix up the 70th week which has already past   with revelation anyhow i am post trib 

 

Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet 

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