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Predestination answered, Free will maybe .

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#1
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Ok, now that we understand that predestination in the Bible refers to believers after salvation, now that we've come to knowledge of it, what about 'free will' vs. 'God being in control' vs. 'the Father drawing nonbelievers in to salvation' verses,scripture in Bible. What holds the most truth and has the most credit for having solid truth. If God is truly in control and the Father draws nonbelievers in, then Free will goes out the window. Any thoughts. - DRS81.



#2
fruitfull77

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In Matt 12:36 Jesus tells us we will have to answer for our actions.

God does not know what choices we will make. He gives us free choice yes, but then what would the purpose of Judgment day be if our outcome has already been predetermined?

why does He say choose life over death if He already knows what we will do/

I'm sure He has a fair idea because of our carnal mind and the temptations we face what we might choose-but I don't think the ending has already been decided.



#3
shiloh357

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Ok, now that we understand that predestination in the Bible refers to believers after salvation, now that we've come to knowledge of it, what about 'free will' vs. 'God being in control' vs. 'the Father drawing nonbelievers in to salvation' verses,scripture in Bible. What holds the most truth and has the most credit for having solid truth. If God is truly in control and the Father draws nonbelievers in, then Free will goes out the window. Any thoughts. - DRS81.

The interplay between free will and God's sovereignty is like this.   God gives you a commandment.  You can either choose to obey or disobey.  That is where free will ends.   You can choose your response, but you can't choose the consequences you will face resulting from your response.  God has already set those consequences in place and you will reap a blessing or a curse based on how you respond to God's commandments.



#4
Sevenseas

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Ok, now that we understand that predestination in the Bible refers to believers after salvation, now that we've come to knowledge of it, what about 'free will' vs. 'God being in control' vs. 'the Father drawing nonbelievers in to salvation' verses,scripture in Bible. What holds the most truth and has the most credit for having solid truth. If God is truly in control and the Father draws nonbelievers in, then Free will goes out the window. Any thoughts. - DRS81.

 

 

:huh:

 

When did that happen?

 

How does this verse fit in:

 

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.  Romans 8:28

 

People (not saying you do necessairly) sometimes use that verse as insurance thinking no matter what, some kind of action on God's part will put all the pieces back

together again...

 

I have questions when people use the word 'control' and God in the sense that God 'controls'.....choice is not control

 

This is my honest observation...not trying to argue



#5
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He gives us free choice yes, but then what would the purpose of Judgment day be if our outcome has already been predetermined?

 

That's a really good point fruitfull, judgment day. I didn't think about that. So we do have choices in life, and our choices determine our outcome. :mellow:

 

You can choose your response, but you can't choose the consequences you will face resulting from your response.

 

Now I'm starting to understand a little better, ty shiloh. I'm hoping for the 'good' consequences in the end.



#6
Fez

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Ok, now that we understand that predestination in the Bible refers to believers after salvation, now that we've come to knowledge of it, what about 'free will' vs. 'God being in control' vs. 'the Father drawing nonbelievers in to salvation' verses,scripture in Bible. What holds the most truth and has the most credit for having solid truth. If God is truly in control and the Father draws nonbelievers in, then Free will goes out the window. Any thoughts. - DRS81.

 

 

:huh:

 

When did that happen?

 

How does this verse fit in:

 

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.  Romans 8:28

 

People (not saying you do necessairly) sometimes use that verse as insurance thinking no matter what, some kind of action on God's part will put all the pieces back

together again...

 

I have questions when people use the word 'control' and God in the sense that God 'controls'.....choice is not control

 

This is my honest observation...not trying to argue

 

 

work together for good to those who love God

 

We need to define "good". WOF and others would have us believe it means a Ferrari in the driveway.

 

Good in God's terms is a different kettle of salvation altogether..

 

Sometimes when God works towards our "good" it hurts, and it feels like punishment to us. But we should rejoice in those "tribulations". 



#7
Sevenseas

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That's pretty much the way I was heading with my comments Fez.  Thanks!

 

oh...and this also:  when we sin or make really bad judgement calls, it doesn't mean God will 'fix' it...God creates and He can create good out of bad,

but sometimes the bad we create does not just disappear

 

I guess what I'm trying to say here, is that I think that God creates as we hand it over to Him...even as Christians

 

I'm not wording this as well as I would like to...but I don't think God controls as much as He 'holds'...if that makes sense?



#8
fruitfull77

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What I find interesting is God created angels, spiritual beings, to be His special agents so to speak. 

 

And it seems He gave them free choice as well. You would think that they would be beyond the temptation realm programmed to serve and protect existing within God's spiritual kingdom.

 

Yet about a third of them  rebelled and made a bad choice following Lucifer and banished from God's Holy place.

 

Wouldn't God have control over His angels? And why would they choose to disobey since they already had the greatest existence you could imagine?

 

Were angels predestined?



#9
coheir

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My view of predestined is a little different. I think God predestined all of mankind to be in heaven because he loved his creation.

In the beginning God created a destination (heaven) and created a path (faith) then he created us (mankind). After which he gave us free will; even though God wants us all in heaven he will not force it on us. Its by way of free will (choice). The path (faith) is laid out for us by God its our choice to travel it or not.



#10
Openly Curious

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Ok, now that we understand that predestination in the Bible refers to believers after salvation, now that we've come to knowledge of it,

 

what about 'free will'

 

vs. 'God being in control'

 

vs. 'the Father drawing nonbelievers in to salvation'

 

verses,scripture in Bible.

 

What holds the most truth and has the most credit for having solid truth.

 

If God is truly in control and the Father draws nonbelievers in,

 

then Free will goes out the window. Any thoughts. - DRS81.

 

 

Hi DRS81, There sure are alot of "verses verses this" going on in your OP which is covering "many" different subjects all tangled up in one. :mgcheerful:  I'll just take one. 

 

 

The believers ability to make their own free will choices concerning their personal lives is not violated by God after one has become a believer.  Unlike God--Satan who in the garden through temptation caused the fall of man which at that point enslaved the entire human race which would ever be born into this world.  This happened because of the disobedience of one earthly man named Adam.  What happened was Satan darkened man's conscious toward God and took control over his nature.  This is to say Satan took man's choice away in regards to his spiritual nature and standing before God before the fall took place.  Man could no longer get back to that first state of being.   Satan took that away from mankind through Adam's disobedience as death the wages of sin was passed onto everyone.  Satan took control over man's nature holding him captive a slave to sin as we are born in sin by nature all guilty before God (whether we are Jew, Gentile, male, female, bond or free etc., all are guilty without excuse before him in this state Romans 1:16-17).  This is a free will choice that mankind within himself literally cannot make within his own ability in order to set himself free from sins slavery his own sinful fallen nature which Satan has control over.  No matter what mankind tries to do within himself he cannot save himself in this regard.  Man cannot work his way free from this slavery in this state man is without hope still the children of wrath and disobedience unclean before God (Ephesians 2:1-10).  The only way mankind can be set free to serve the living God is through the blood of Jesus and the work he did on the cross.  The word of faith that is nigh thee even in your mouth (Romans 10:8-17) that is calling on Jesus and confessing our sins (Hebrews 9:11-22).     

 

God unlike Satan does not violate mankinds will and freedom of choice over his nature and make him a slave to righteousness.  God has never done that from the very beginning of time. What God did was set before man (before Satan entered into the garden) while in a state of innocence the consequences of disobedience and put a law before him to abide by.  It was man's obedience to that law not to eat of the forbidden tree's fruit that protected him from the wages of sin (physical death) the fall and from being taken captive by Satan.   After one is saved God still does not enslave us to his righteousness he never did.  But God restores us back to right relationship with him and makes us a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:11-21).  He sets us free from that sinful natures control and makes us once again a partaker of his divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).   Our choice is restored back to us we are given the freedom to walk in the Spirit (nature of God) or to walk in the flesh (nature of Satan sinful nature) Galatians 6.  God want violate our free will to obey or disobey him he will not violate and make us a slave and force us into his nature to walk with him in this life like Satan did but enables us once again to walk with him.  He sent his only begotten Son into this world that we through him in this dispensation of grace can be saved (both Jew and Gentiles male female bond or free etc., (Ephesians 1:10-14) and set free washed from our sins (Titus 3:5) and be restored back to right fellowship with God, set free from sins slavery.  For this God preordained it before the foundation of the earth was laid and has made known to the saints in this dispensation of grace that we should be saved.   We are made partakers of the divine nature of God literally made a new creature in Christ Jesus.  The saints are different than the unregenerated unbelievers through the work of the cross we are and were made a new creatures created in Christ Jesus to walk in newness of life, we have two natures abiding within us we are not the same creature as before we no longer are a slave to the "one" fleshly sinful nature we were born with and a slave too.  And these two natures within us are contrary to one another warring and do fight against one another.  But God has restored the freedom of choice in whom we will serve back to the saints it is our choice to walk in the Spirit new nature (new man) or the flesh (old nature, old man).   

(Colossians 1:24-28; 2:2;)  Christ in us the hope of glory.



#11
makrothumia

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I believe that Predestination and freewill can exist in the same equation...



#12
His_disciple3

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the one thing that the Calvinist have to over look to make scripture fit their doctrine of grace by predestination, is "BY HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE" He doesn't just randomly pick and choose who is in and who is out , but by His foreknowledge of Whosoever will !!!!! Predestination is just as much scripture as free will, or free will is just as much scripture as predestination is, if Paul taught doctrine of grace as the Calvinist says he did why would he say this:

2 Tim 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV

 

according to some the elect are elected/predestined before time begin to be in. but Paul clearly says that the elect needs to obtain salvation also!!!!!.



#13
Joshua-777

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:) The Fathers will is completely revealed in Jesus. Jesus destroyed the works of the devil every day of His life and that work didn't stop. Now, He uses His body....  us.



#14
Willamina

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Yes, God does draw us all to Himself. We have the free will to resist His grace and to resist saving faith.
The proud who try to enter by another gate still say I did it my way and end up in hell.
The humble who will do not resist God's grace and call also receive the free gift of perservering trust in and reliance on Christ. God knows our response because He knows our hearts. He knows the end from the beginning because He is outside of time which He also created. I AM = He is-- always in the present tense. Always present and always existing.

True--total depravity--all are born with the instinct of selfishness and sin due to the fall of Adam. No man has the capacity to receive Christ but by God's grace.
True--unconditional election--we are saved purely by God's grace and not by any works or goodness. But the Bible clearly states that our election is according to God's foreknowledge. Everyone is headed for hell by default due to the fall of Adam. God foreknows the hearts of those who will humbly NOT resist His call, who will be given grace to repent, will be given saving perservering faith, and will be indwelt and sealed by His Spirit. 1 Peter 1:2 Heb. 3:14 , 2 Thess. 2:13-14
False--limited atonement--Jesus loved and died for the whole world. God our Savior Who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth  1 Tim. 2:4 John 3:16-17 God offers His grace to all.
False--irresistable grace-- there are numerous verses stating that people did not believe due to their resisting the Holy Spirit and their hardening their hearts in unrepentance.. Mt. 23:37, Acts, 7:51
True--perserverance of the saints. ---God chose those whose hearts He foreknew would not resist His grace and gift of perservering faith. But there are also many admonitions in Scripture meant to help us toward the end of our keeping our faith strong, urging us: to be fervent in prayer, to study the scriptures, to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, to be quick to repent and ask forgiveness should we sin, and to walk according to the Spirit. The elect are eager to do these things as well as to urge others to do them. We are Told to make our calling and election sure in 2 Peter 1:10 and to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Pet. 3:18 God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13 NKJV
Sin does harden our hearts if unrepented, and many permanently fall away who continue in sin and unrepentance till the end, revealing that they are not among the elect. They loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. Many are called but few are chosen. John 17: 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 23 There are goats among the sheep and sometimes only the Good Shepherd knows His own.

#15
Openly Curious

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..............He doesn't just randomly pick and choose who is in and who is out , but by His foreknowledge of Whosoever will !!!!! Predestination is just as much scripture as free will, or free will is just as much scripture as predestination is, if Paul taught doctrine of grace as the Calvinist says he did why would he say this:

2 Tim 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may ALSO obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV
 
according to some the elect are elected/predestined before time begin to be in. but Paul clearly says...that the elect (Jews, the Circumcision) needs to obtain salvation also!!!!!.

 

 

I agree :thumbsup: 



#16
other one

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From another thread and I can't find it now

If there is no free will, then God is not a Father, nor is He a Shepherd or a Husband or a King.          If there is no free will, then all life is a puppet show, and God is a Puppet Master pulling on a string.

 

I happen to agree with this post......   whoever it was that posted it.



#17
bopeep1909

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Ok, now that we understand that predestination in the Bible refers to believers after salvation, now that we've come to knowledge of it, what about 'free will' vs. 'God being in control' vs. 'the Father drawing nonbelievers in to salvation' verses,scripture in Bible. What holds the most truth and has the most credit for having solid truth. If God is truly in control and the Father draws nonbelievers in, then Free will goes out the window. Any thoughts. - DRS81.

The interplay between free will and God's sovereignty is like this.   God gives you a commandment.  You can either choose to obey or disobey.  That is where free will ends.   You can choose your response, but you can't choose the consequences you will face resulting from your response.  God has already set those consequences in place and you will reap a blessing or a curse based on how you respond to God's commandments.

 

I agree with this shiloh.






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