Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

"Sin Unto Death"

30 posts in this topic

Posted · Report post

1 John 5:16

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

 

So what is the "sin unto death"?

 

This came up in Bible study tonight. Someone said that it was rejecting Jesus, based on the understanding that death in the verse refers to spiritual death.  I disagreed, reason being if this was so, then why are we told not to pray about it? If a brother or sister seemingly fell away, wouldn't that be something we should pray about? The only reason I can see to not pray about this is if the death being referred to is physical and prayers after this point are futile.

 

What say you?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

John Piper, addressed this, and I agree with his assessment.  He said the following: 

 

"I believe that He does not have “kinds of sinning” in mind.  Rather, it is degrees of rootedness, and degrees of habituality and degrees of persistence.  So that the “Esau” factor comes in from Hebrews 12: 16-17 where Esau sinned against God’s benefits so relentlessly that  God finally said, “it’s over.”  The Bible says to remember your Creator in the days of your youth because if you pursue sin, you may think you are going to repent one day, but you will discover that you are unable to repent, just like Esau who sought repentance with tears but couldn’t find it. 

 

It is a frightening thing to think that you have lived thinking that after you have sowed your wild oats that you will then seek repentance in the end, but find that you are powerless because there is sin unto death and you don’t know when you crossed that line and God is done with you and He isn’t going to real you in again.   Beware because if you put it off, you will become so in love with your sin, you couldn’t repent if 10,000 horses pulled on your heart."

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Jesus' attonement is for anyone that will receive it.

If a person comes in contact with the workings of the Holy Spirit and rejects it (calling it the work of the devil) they are literally sealing themself off from devine intervention and therefore prayer for them is meaningless.

Edited by 2404
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Hey Shiloh

Does he mean the person eventually loses their salvation by not being able to repent (spiritual death), or that because they're unable to repent God eventually takes their life (physical death)?

 

Hey 2404,

Do you mean blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Can/would a believer commit such?

 

Thanks, guys, and I'm sorry I'm posting in this way. Ever since my upgrade to Windows 8.1, the quote feature no longer works for me. :th_frusty:

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Every sin is either forgiven if repented - if not the sinner is judged and is cast into outer darkness not eternal death. But what sin is a sin "unto death"? I as others thought sinning against the Holy Spirit but is that judged unto death? Then I thought suicide. Is it a sin unto death? Just curious - we are really not given an answer or clear explanation of what that really is. Sinning against the Holy Spirit is not a frivolous thing but "unto death" that is a curious phrase.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Hey Shiloh

Does he mean the person eventually loses their salvation by not being able to repent (spiritual death), or that because they're unable to repent God eventually takes their life (physical death)?

 

Hey 2404,

Do you mean blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Can/would a believer commit such?

 

Thanks, guys, and I'm sorry I'm posting in this way. Ever since my upgrade to Windows 8.1, the quote feature no longer works for me. :th_frusty:

No, a believer can not because that is what they are. They may stumble but the attonment is applied.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Hey Shiloh

Does he mean the person eventually loses their salvation by not being able to repent (spiritual death), or that because they're unable to repent God eventually takes their life (physical death)?

 

No, the sin unto death doesn't apply to Christians.   The sin unto death is the attitude of unrepentance of a sinner.  A person who chooses continued separation from God and never comes to Jesus and dies in that condition has committed the sin unto death.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Okay, so what I hear you guys saying is this isn't pertaining to Christians. My next question is, why does the verse say....."If any man see his brother...."? I always took this to mean "a brother or sister in Christ" when I read it in the NT. Is this a wrong understanding?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Okay, so what I hear you guys saying is this isn't pertaining to Christians. My next question is, why does the verse say....."If any man see his brother...."? I always took this to mean "a brother or sister in Christ" when I read it in the NT. Is this a wrong understanding?

Is it not proper from a Christian's perspective of mutual love and respect?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Okay, so what I hear you guys saying is this isn't pertaining to Christians. My next question is, why does the verse say....."If any man see his brother...."? I always took this to mean "a brother or sister in Christ" when I read it in the NT. Is this a wrong understanding?

I guess the answer would depend on whether or not one sees this as referring to spiritual death or simply physical death. 

 

I don't think it is referring to a brother in the sense of sibling and since I see this as referring to spiritual death, I think it might refer to one who participated in the Christian community but was not a genuine follower of Jesus.  There are "Christians" who are full members of churches who participate in the life of the church and are considered "brothers and sisters" but in the end, never really knew Jesus.

 

Now if one sees this as referring to physical death, then it would be easy to say that "brother" refers to a fellow believer who commits a sin like Annaias and Saphira or who were like the Corinthians who were sick and falling to fatal illnesses because they had defiled the communion table.

 

I see it as a spiritual matter, but there are those who see it differently.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Here is another point of view for you to consider that I found online.   Link is below

 

Sin unto Death

 

The expression "sin unto death" ( 1 John 5:16-17 ) appears in a context concerning confident, effective prayer (cf. 1 John 3:21-22 ; 4:17 ). First John 5:14-15 speaks generally about the confidence that God will answer requests made according to his will. Verses 16-17 speak specifically about the confidence that God will answer intercession for believers who are committing a sin not unto death and give life to them. But no such confidence is available when the sins is unto death. While all unrighteousness is sin, not all sin is unto death. Thus, the comment about sin unto death is something of an afterthought.

 

But what are the nondeadly and deadly sins? Some answers are unconvincing because they stress remote contexts rather than the immediate context in 1 John. The view that mortal and venial sins are distinguished is anachronistic. In another approach, death is understood as physical, but in 1 John death and life are spiritual (1:1-2; 2:25; 3:14-15; 4:9; 5:11-13). Another view connects 1 John 5:16-17 with the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit ( Matt 12:31-32 ; Mark 3:28-30 ), but 1 John says nothing about attributing the miracles of Jesus to Satan's power. Yet another theory sees the sin unto death as apostasy (cf. Heb 2:3 ; 6:6 ; 10:29-31 ), but 1 John 2:19 indicates that "apostates" were never really in the community to begin with. Thus, another solution must be sought.

 

The polemic of 1 John views sin very seriously ( 1:7-10 ; 2:12 ; 1 John 3:4-5 1 John 3:8-9 ; 4:10 ; 5:18 ). While believers do sin occasionally ( 1 John 1:7 1 John 1:9 ; 2:1 ; 5:16 ), they do not persist in ethical disobedience ( 2:4 ), social bigotry ( 2:9 ; 3:14-17 ; 4:20-21 ), or christological heresy ( 2:18-29 ; 4:1-3 ). In this qualified sense they do not sin ( 1 John 3:6 1 John 3:9 ; 5:18 ); in other words, their sin is not deadly ( 5:16-17 ). But those who walk in darkness while claiming to be in the light ( 1:6 ), who hate believers ( 2:9 ), and who deny that Jesus is the Messiah ( 2:22 ) are committing deadly sins. Thus, the polemic admits the reality of believers' sinning against the opponents' perfectionistic claims, but it also stresses the ideal of sinlessness. In this setting, the community is commanded to intercede for fellow believers who occasionally sin, but it is not commanded to pray for the deadly sins of those outside the community.

 

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/sin-unto-death.html

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Thank you, Shiloh, for taking the time to help me with this. I think I'm getting the picture much better.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

The letter that Apostle John wrote was to believers in general.....

 

1John 1:1-4 - That WHICH was from the beginning, Which we have heard, Which we have seen with our eyes, Which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, Which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us:)  That Which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ .  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 

 

It seems that John within his letter to the saints was concerned over certain opinions or philosophy that had been mixing in with the Christian faith.  One of them was the opinion that Jesus had only appeared to have a body but he really didn't have one (speaking of the body of Jesus after his resurrection).  The second opinion that seemed to be of concern to John that was going around was that the things (deeds) we do while living in our bodies (which are inherently evil as we were born in sin) couldn't make us unclean or pollute our souls (which are inherently good).  Of course this is gnostic philosphy or teaching.  And apostle John is making it clear to the believers at the start of his letter that the gospel was based on the actual evidence of the physical senses in that he had heard, seen, and even touched Jesus himself after the resurrection when Jesus had appeared to ten of the apostles in......Luke 24:36-43 - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.  But they were terrified and affrightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.  And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled?  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me haveAnd when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and feet.  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,  Have ye here any meat?  And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.  And he took it, and did eat  before them.   So the apostle John is giving witness to the believers that Jesus did have a literal resurrected body that he himself saw and touched with his own hands as Jesus even ate broiled fish and honeycomb in his resurrected glorified body.

 

Apostle John further into his letter says in......1 John 3:9-10 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;  for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (1 Peter 1:23).  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth his brother.  John is pointing out and insisting that no one who is a true Christian can go on living a sinful physical life in his body after salvation because there is eternal consequences (Galatians 6).  John states this in.......1 John 4:2 - Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (body) is of God.  Every Christian must acknowledge that Jesus has come in the flesh.  Apostle John has built his whole letter around this knowledge or wisdom of God and on the live we have in Christ.  If there are brothers and sister among us that deny these truths.  Then even if they are among us Apostle John says they are not of God they do not have the Spirit of God abiding with in them.  We as believers must turn away from such people and not listen to them because they are really not for Christ they do not believe him and they are anti- Christ and have not been regenerated or born again and made a new creature in Christ Jesus.   Our salvation rests upon the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and the confession of these truths. 

 

Getting to the question in the OP.  It is our guilty conscious that condemns us before God when we sin or mess up and do wrong in life.  Our conscious if not seared convicts us of our wrong doing before God and if we have unconfessed sin in our lives then our fellowship with God is broken during those times.  Our guilty conscious they will not let us approach God and ask or make our petitions known to him.  Unconfessed sins will take our confidence towards God away from us as John says this to the believers in...1 John 5:13-21.

 

Now let's look at 1John 5:16-17 - If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death: (1 John 3:20-24; Job 42:8; James 5:14) There is a sin unto death: (Matthew 12:31; Mark 3:29; Hebrews 6:4, 6) I do not say that he shall pray for it (Jeremiah 7:16; John 17:9).  All unrighteousness (wrongdoing) is sin:  and there is a sin not unto death (1 John 3:4).

 

If we see a fellow believer in Christ doing wrong we should offer to pray with them and give them godly counsel so they can confess their faults (sins or wrongdoings) and be restored in their relationship (fellowship & confidence) with God.  Both Apostle Paul and James the apostle wrote in their letters in......Galatians 6:1-2 - BRETHREN, IF a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.  Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.........James 5:13-20 - vs. 16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed (spiritually). The effectual fervent prayer of a righteouss man availeth much......vs. 19-20) Brethren, if any of you do err (stray) from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his ways shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.   It is the same way if someone is sick they are to call on the elders of the church to pray for them and they can be healed of physical sicknesses by the prayers of the righteous.

 

Jesus told us that any kind of sin can be forgiven if we just confess and forsake it.  But if a person blasphemes the Holy Ghost of God then this sin will never be forgiven a person they can pray and repent all they want too but God will stop up his ears and not hear their prayers of forgiveness and pardon them.  They will have no hope ever of reconciliation with God the Father.

 

Bottom line is that as a Christian all of our faults and failures can be forgiven us if we confess them to God and he will forgive us and will hear our prayers and have fellowship with us and our confidence will be restored to us toward God.  It is good to know as a Christian if I mess up and sin that no matter what it is or how bad it is in my conscious that I can pray and ask for forgiveness and it will be granted as he will give more grace to help us in times of need.  But if I blaspheme the Holy Ghost my prayer of confession will not be heard it will be unto death (eternal seperation from God). 

 

But we are to turn away from the false teachers who do not believe Jesus came in the flesh.  Because we are saved through faith by the grace of God who sent his only begotten Son into this world that we could be saved.  Jesus was the sacrifice for our sins.  2 John vs. 7-12

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Thanks for all your answers, guys. :emot-heartbeat:

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I think it is illustrated in 1 Corinthians by the man who fornicated with his father's wife and was to be delivered to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit would be saved. I think it is persistence in gross sin and that chastisement of physical death is in order.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I agree with Atwood.  Especially when Ananias and Sapphira, who did not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit but surely lied to Him, so we see they lied to God, which cost them their lives,and IMO, where just one step short of committing the unpardonable sin, so no need to pray for them for God was taking them both home before they could cause themselves eternal damnation, see Acts 5:1-11.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

 

Okay, so what I hear you guys saying is this isn't pertaining to Christians. My next question is, why does the verse say....."If any man see his brother...."? I always took this to mean "a brother or sister in Christ" when I read it in the NT. Is this a wrong understanding?

 

I guess the answer would depend on whether or not one sees this as referring to spiritual death or simply physical death. 

 

 

I think we can rule out physical death on the logic of the text.  To have in mind physical death, the verse would be telling us that God will give physical life to him who is not near physical death--kind of pointless.

 

The grammatical construction of the Greek seems hesitant--οὐ περὶ ἐκείνης λέγω ἵνα ἐρωτήσῃ. (1Jo 5:16 BGT)

 

Literally it reads, "not concerning this one do I say that he ought to pray": This is far softer than the strong prohibition "I say do not pray concerning/for this one".  Is it possible that the author is consciously ambiguous concerning this class of sinner? 

 

My chief difficulty with this verse is the impracticality of it--how should I know when one is so far gone that there is no point to pray for him anymore? Is that not God's decision?

 

clb

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

 

My chief difficulty with this verse is the impracticality of it--how should I know when one is so far gone that there is no point to pray for him anymore?

 

This is what leads me to include physical death as a possibility.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

 

 

My chief difficulty with this verse is the impracticality of it--how should I know when one is so far gone that there is no point to pray for him anymore?

 

This is what leads me to include physical death as a possibility.

 

I've done some thinking on this since, and I suppose physical death should not be ruled out; but it doesn't solve much for me.

 

But what would a sin that leads to death be? Armed robbery might get you shot; or murder might get you hanged?

 

But perhaps there need not be a direct, natural correlation between the sin and the ensuing death.  In New Testament times even there was the belief that sickness was a judgment of God upon the sick.  Perhaps John is saying that if the man's sins have brought this judgment, then there is no point praying for him.

 

However, how do I know if my ailing mother is dying because of some heinous sin unknown to me?  Should I pray for her?  So the practical problem remains.

 

clb

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

 

But what would a sin that leads to death be?

I'm thinking along the lines of an Ananias and Sapphira situation, or this one...

 

1 Cor 11

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world

 

 

However, how do I know if my ailing mother is dying because of some heinous sin unknown to me?  Should I pray for her?  So the practical problem remains.

That's just it. If it's already led to death is the only reason I can think of why we shouldn't pray, because after death is the only time we know for sure prayers for that person are to no avail.

 

But I gotta admit, I'm not sure about it....I'm just trying to work this one out.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Blessings chloe

    God  Bless you Sister,I do believe that Gods Word is referring to the Brethren& in agreement with Shiloh,this does not necessarily mean because we think of them as our brothers & Sisters in Christ that they actually are............I too believe we are talking about spiritual death and I do not see the sin unto death as a particular sin being worse than any other sin.......................This is not speaking of the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit,the unpardonable sin or it would have been said that way.......He is talking about the willful & deliberate act of sinning without remorse & an unrepentant heart,this is one who does not revere God or have any regard for the consequence of their actions,this cannot be a Christian eve if they claim to be one,.......Jesus said if we love Him we will obey His commandments.

                                                                                                                                                      With love-in Christ,Kwik

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Hey my sister Kwik,

 

Hugs, love ya! It very well could be as you and others have said. It totally fits if we look at it as they're not really brothers or sisters, just appear to be. If this is truly the case, then the death could really be spiritual death.

 

Thank you so much and everyone else too for trying to help me understand this verse.

 

Your sister in Christ, Chloe

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

1 John 5:16

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

 

So what is the "sin unto death"?

 

This came up in Bible study tonight. Someone said that it was rejecting Jesus, based on the understanding that death in the verse refers to spiritual death.  I disagreed, reason being if this was so, then why are we told not to pray about it? If a brother or sister seemingly fell away, wouldn't that be something we should pray about? The only reason I can see to not pray about this is if the death being referred to is physical and prayers after this point are futile.

 

What say you?

 

A difficult passage to be sure.  I haven't studied it, so, I won't be one of the "overnight sensationalist" who love to respond to things that they have never truly known, or understood themselves.  But, here is my initial thoughts when I read it many years ago.

 

There are MORAL laws, which of couse, lead to damnation.  Such as lying, stealing, murder, sexual sin, socery (drug use), drunkeness, theft, etc.  All who do such things continously, and/or without repentance, will see damnation.  As such, "unto death".

 

Then there are also DIETARY and CEREMONIAL law, such as not eating certain foods or worshipping on certain days or feasts.  Such things have never sent, and never will send, anyone to Hellfire (thank God!!).  Hence, they are not unto death.

 

Then there is the passage about those who do things knowing they are wrong and will be beaten with many lashes, but those who do the same things, not knowing that its wrong, will be beaten with only a few lashes.

 

Again, I could be way off.  I'm only sharing my intial thoughts as i recall when I first read that nerely 20 years ago.  I've never studied it since. 

 

Matthew henry, who is not always right in all things, has this to say:

 

"There is a great distinction in the heinousness and guilt of sin: There is a sin unto death (v. 16), and there is a sin not unto death, v. 17. (1.) There is a sin unto death. All sin, as to the merit and legal sentence of it, is unto death. The wages of sin is death; and cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them, Gal. 3:10. But there is a sin unto death in opposition to such sin as is here said not to be unto death. There is therefore, (2.) A sin not unto death. This surely must include all such sin as by divine or human constitution may consist with life; in the human constitution with temporal or corporal life, in the divine constitution with corporal or with spiritual evangelical life. [1.] There are sins which, by human righteous constitution, are not unto death; as divers pieces of injustice, which may be compensated without the death of the delinquent. In opposition to this there are sins which, by righteous constitution, are to death, or to a legal forfeiture of life; such as we call capital crimes. [2.] Then there are sins which, by divine constitution, are unto death; and that either death corporal or spiritual and evangelical. First, Such as are, or may be, to death corporal. Such may the sins be either of gross hypocrites, as Ananias and Sapphira, or, for aught we know, of sincere Christian brethren, as when the apostle says of the offending members of the church of Corinth, For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep, 1 Co. 11:30. There may be sin unto corporal death among those who may not be condemned with the world. Such sin, I said, is, or may be, to corporal death. The divine penal constitution in the gospel does not positively and peremptorily threaten death to the more visible sins of the members of Christ, but only some gospel-chastisement; for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth, Heb. 12:6. There is room left for divine wisdom or goodness, or even gospel severity, to determine how far the chastisement or the scourge shall proceed. And we cannot say but that sometimes it may (in terrorem-for warning to others) proceed even to death. Then, Secondly, There are sins which, by divine constitution, are unto death spiritual and evangelical, that is, are inconsistent with spiritual and evangelical life, with spiritual life in the soul and with an evangelical right to life above. Such are total impenitence and unbelief for the present. Final impenitence and unbelief are infallibly to death eternal, as also a blaspheming of the Spirit of God in the testimony that he has given to Christ and his gospel, and a total apostasy from the light and convictive evidence of the truth of the Christian religion. These are sins involving the guilt of everlasting death"

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

YES! it is rejecting Gods own son that leads us to death. When we have Jesus... we have the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I beg to differ.

Most people brush this question off with a quick "Jesus died for us, so we can really do whatever we want, as long as we belie-eve, ask for forgiveness and give some more of our money to the church." The bible (and therefore God as well) disagrees.

Hebrews 10:26-29 says: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

I do think that "knowledge of the truth" is a key-element in this text though, and not everyone who says that they are a Christian has come to that state (2Tim.3:7). When you become a Christian, you are born again and you no longer live for yourself. The highest commandment is to love God with all your heart and soul, and to love God is to keep His commandments, and they are not grievous (1John5:3).

To sin deliberately is an act of defiance against God, and "not being perfect" is a very poor excuse. But God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1Cor. 10:13). To sin on purpose, knowing that God doesn't want you to do a thing, is indeed spitting on Jesus' cross and counting His blood unholy.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0