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Post Tribbers - Please explain

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#1
Montana Marv

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As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#2
Enoch2021

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Montana Marv...... Love where your minds at   :thumbsup:   Very Insightful.....gotta Love the Simplicity.

 

 

So your Thesis is:  If "The Church" who's Mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the World is still on the Earth during The Great Tribulation, then why the need for the Angel to proclaim it "to those who live on the Earth" in Rev 14?

 

Any takers??

 

 

Then after that:

 

How does the "Bride"----------> "The Church" (Born Again Christians), FOLLOW Christ in HIS SECOND COMING (See Rev 19) after the Marriage Supper if they're still on the Earth waiting to be "Raptured" ??

 

 

The WORD is a Two-Edged Sword.  Nothing can stand up to it, save............................THE TRUTH!!

 

 

Praise The LORD!!

 

 



#3
Spock

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I guess they say the wedding supper is later, not before the 2nd coming. I've never really read their thoughts on this. I'm sure Argosy or The other Enoch have an explanation.

This up and back thing seems sorta corny too, don't you think? I mean would Jesus call us up just to ask us to follow him back down? Maybe not.

#4
Enoch2021

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I guess they say the wedding supper is later, not before the 2nd coming. I've never really read their thoughts on this. I'm sure Argosy or The other Enoch have an explanation.

This up and back thing seems sorta corny too, don't you think? I mean would Jesus call us up just to ask us to follow him back down? Maybe not.

 

=========================================================================

 

 

 

I guess they say the wedding supper is later, not before the 2nd coming.  I've never really read their thoughts on this. I'm sure Argosy or The other Enoch have an explanation.

 

They would have to change the WORD OF GOD for that explanation.....

 

 

Revelation 19:

 

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

 

 

And may I remind you of the Warning for "adding to" or "taking away" from the WORD OF GOD....

 

 

Revelation 22:18-19:

 

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

 

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.



#5
Montana Marv

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Easy for the Post tribbers to attack our position.  But when their position is exposed, silence.  Maybe this thread will go away.  Ouch.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#6
ARGOSY

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As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Hi Montana Marv, I dont understand your point in Rev 14:6-7. do you believe that an angel will preach during the tribulation , bringing salvation to "tribulation saints"?   If this is your belief,  do you think this will be visible preaching by an angel? 

 

I just see verses 1 to 8 as describing the end of the world, the second coming, judgment day. After they have seen Jesus, all nations bow before him and an angel proclaims the truth to all nations. Its too late for the "salvation gospel", but eternal truths (eternal gospel) can still be explained to earth's population. I believe the second coming context of this angel is clear:

 

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

 

This is very similar to the loud rapture event described in Thessalonians, where we have a trumpet, and a shout, and the voice of  an archangel, this could be the same angel as that angel in Rev 14:    1 Thess 4:For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

 

 

Verses 9-13 are encouraging Christians in all ages to be faithful unto death, its a general encouragement through the ages , but also with specific focus on the future persecution of the beast and once again focus on the second coming "fire and brimstone", wrath and anger at the second coming. 

 

Verses 14-20 are back to the second coming and the two harvests. The first harvest is the post-trib rapture/resurrection where the holy are removed from earth. The second harvest is the gathering of the armies and their destruction at the "great feast" of Armageddon. 

 

 

I am not saying this is the only way to understand Rev 14, I'm just saying its a fair and likely interpretation , if my view in any manner contradicts scripture kindly point it out so that we may all learn from it.



#7
ARGOSY

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Montana Marv...... Love where your minds at   :thumbsup:   Very Insightful.....gotta Love the Simplicity.

 

 

So your Thesis is:  If "The Church" who's Mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the World is still on the Earth during The Great Tribulation, then why the need for the Angel to proclaim it "to those who live on the Earth" in Rev 14?

 

Any takers??

 

 

Then after that:

 

How does the "Bride"----------> "The Church" (Born Again Christians), FOLLOW Christ in HIS SECOND COMING (See Rev 19) after the Marriage Supper if they're still on the Earth waiting to be "Raptured" ??

 

 

The WORD is a Two-Edged Sword.  Nothing can stand up to it, save............................THE TRUTH!!

 

 

Praise The LORD!!

 

The bride, the church , joins Jesus in the holy procession in the clouds.  This is known as the rapture. Only then does God shower his wrath on earth. When we avoid the wrath of God, this is normally in second coming context, describing the great wrath on the day of the Lord that we avoid. This wrath entails many events, a massive earthqauke, every mountain and island moved, the armies in Israel destroyed, fire and brimstone, entire regions made desolate, or burning. Part of the marriage procession of the bride is witnessing this destruction of our persecutors just after we are raptured into the clouds to meet Jesus.

 

The second coming: Matthew 24

they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

The second coming: Rev 19:

Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the [c]saints.

 

The second coming: Rev 19:

14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and  clean, were following Him on white horses.



#8
ARGOSY

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I guess they say the wedding supper is later, not before the 2nd coming. I've never really read their thoughts on this. I'm sure Argosy or The other Enoch have an explanation.

This up and back thing seems sorta corny too, don't you think? I mean would Jesus call us up just to ask us to follow him back down? Maybe not.

 

Everyone seems to think there is a great landing of believers at the second coming. Can you remind me of the verse that indicates this? I thought we all had rooms in the heavenly Jerusalem, not on the earth during the millenium, so I need to see the verse that indicates we all land back here on earth, instead of just staying up  in heaven. Rev 20 describes the "camp of the saints" here on earth , as if our presence here is just temporary , surely our permanent dwelling is heaven?

 

Have you got a verse? I would like to learn more on this topic.



#9
Enoch2021

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Montana Marv...... Love where your minds at   :thumbsup:   Very Insightful.....gotta Love the Simplicity.

 

 

So your Thesis is:  If "The Church" who's Mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the World is still on the Earth during The Great Tribulation, then why the need for the Angel to proclaim it "to those who live on the Earth" in Rev 14?

 

Any takers??

 

 

Then after that:

 

How does the "Bride"----------> "The Church" (Born Again Christians), FOLLOW Christ in HIS SECOND COMING (See Rev 19) after the Marriage Supper if they're still on the Earth waiting to be "Raptured" ??

 

 

The WORD is a Two-Edged Sword.  Nothing can stand up to it, save............................THE TRUTH!!

 

 

Praise The LORD!!

 

The bride, the church , joins Jesus in the holy procession in the clouds.  This is known as the rapture. Only then does God shower his wrath on earth. When we avoid the wrath of God, this is normally in second coming context, describing the great wrath on the day of the Lord that we avoid. This wrath entails many events, a massive earthqauke, every mountain and island moved, the armies in Israel destroyed, fire and brimstone, entire regions made desolate, or burning. Part of the marriage procession of the bride is witnessing this destruction of our persecutors just after we are raptured into the clouds to meet Jesus.

 

The second coming: Matthew 24

they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

The second coming: Rev 19:

Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the [c]saints.

 

The second coming: Rev 19:

14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and  clean, were following Him on white horses.

 

 

 

======================================================================
 

 

The bride, the church , joins Jesus in the holy procession in the clouds.

 

Really? Could you be a bit more specific?.....

 

THE BRIDE JOINS HIM FROM WHERE??

 

Let me remind you Brother....

 

(Revelation 22:18-19):

 

{18}"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 

 

{19} "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

 

 

Here it is....

 

(Revelation 19:1-16) "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:  {2} For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.  {3} And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.  {4} And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.  {5} And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.  {6} And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.  {7} Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

 

 

The Bride is already in Heaven.......THEN: the Marriage Supper....................THEN: The Armies that WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOW HIM in HIS SECOND COMING.  Which includes HIS WIFE/BRIDE.... "THE CHURCH" because SHE is one of them that are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

 

**** Special Note *****  Brother Argosy....... If I were you, I would tread lighter than a Church Mouse here (SEE: Revelation 22:18-19 above)



#10
Spock

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I guess they say the wedding supper is later, not before the 2nd coming. I've never really read their thoughts on this. I'm sure Argosy or The other Enoch have an explanation.
This up and back thing seems sorta corny too, don't you think? I mean would Jesus call us up just to ask us to follow him back down? Maybe not.

 
Everyone seems to think there is a great landing of believers at the second coming. Can you remind me of the verse that indicates this? I thought we all had rooms in the heavenly Jerusalem, not on the earth during the millenium, so I need to see the verse that indicates we all land back here on earth, instead of just staying up  in heaven. Rev 20 describes the "camp of the saints" here on earth , as if our presence here is just temporary , surely our permanent dwelling is heaven?
 
Have you got a verse? I would like to learn more on this topic.

Actually my brother, your point is noted. I for one do not clearly know if the Raptured saints are actually returning to the earth with Yeshua or not.

Rev: 14The armies which are in heaven followed him on white horses, clothed in white, pure, fine linen.

The passage I cited says "armies" and many believe these are angels, not believers, but notice what they are wearing? White, pure, fine linen seems to indicate overcomers, meaning believers. I'm not sure angels wear this, and it appears many of the bible experts aren't sure either because I've read commentaries on both sides.

#11
ENOCH2010

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Brother Enoch 2021, You might ought take your own advice, no where in that verse does it say the bride is in heaven with the Lord. Granted a lot of the believers are, they have been dying for the past 2000 years to get there. No where does the Bible say they were raptured there pre-trib. You are stating your opinion as  " IT " is the word of God, when it's not.



#12
Enoch2021

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Brother Enoch 2021, You might ought take your own advice, no where in that verse does it say the bride is in heaven with the Lord. Granted a lot of the believers are, they have been dying for the past 2000 years to get there. No where does the Bible say they were raptured there pre-trib. You are stating your opinion as  " IT " is the word of God, when it's not.

 

========================================================================

 

Really??  :mgdetective:

 

I'll make it real BIG so you can see it......

 

Rev 19: 7-14:

{7} Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

 

So......"no where in that verse does it say the bride is in heaven with the Lord." ??    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

So the Brides not in Heaven, eh?

 

 

No where does the Bible say they were raptured there pre-trib.

 

Well no it doesn't that's why you need to look @ 2 Thess 2: 1-9.  Then the 30 or so versus that Speak to the Doctrine of Imminence.  Then combine that with....  (1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

 

Then combine all those with

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

It's called comparing "Scripture with Scripture"....it offers Blessings and the discovery of Absolute TRUTH.

 

Then to rightly divide the WORD and Ensure you Understand the Distinction between The Church and Israel.

 

Then try and ascertain what the Purpose of The Great Tribulation is (It would probably be a good idea to figure this out from the beginning to give you an overview).  It's right here.....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

Then ask yourself WHO is the LORD talking about here..... Israel or The Church?? And since from your studies (SEE: Below) that "The Church" was HID from the foundation of the WORLD until Paul Revealed it.... you can come up with the answer; for confirmation combine it with this....... And what "Offence" was the LORD talking about?

 

 

Then when comparing all this with Revelation......since there are over 800 Allusions from the OT in it, it would probably be a good idea to study it and then familiarize yourself with the Law of Expositional Constancy.....this is where the Holy Spirit uses Idioms consistently throughout Scripture.  So you're not left with the built in excuse of ......"well it's just too Symbolic" to understand.

 

Then....since there is to be a Wedding and since OUR KING is Jewish, you may want to look @ the Tenets of an Ancient Jewish Wedding to see if there are any discernible patterns or "TYPES" that can be gleaned from it.

 

It's also a Good Idea to Outline the Whole Book of Revelation.

 

If it were me, I'd look into the Seven Churches and try to ascertain Significance of each and see if there are any Discernible Patterns.  Since the Letter (Book of Revelation) was addressed to them.

 

Then I would list all the Principles/Players in the Book of Revelation in one column then list all the Characteristics of each respectively; to again, try and detect "Patterns" or distinctive Qualifiers.

 

Then after studying that for some time......depending on reading comprehension level/critical thinking skills/intelligence/prayer/guidance from the Holy Spirit....  you may then consider Commenting on the Subject.

 

That's just the Start Point.

 

Or

 

Follow what somebody TOLD you the WORD says..... then adopt it into your World View without any scrutiny, and roll with that.



#13
ENOCH2010

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Are you Tim lahaye <<  (not sure of spelling) if not I'm sure you know who I'm talking about, you have his opinion down pat.



#14
Enoch2021

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I guess they say the wedding supper is later, not before the 2nd coming. I've never really read their thoughts on this. I'm sure Argosy or The other Enoch have an explanation.
This up and back thing seems sorta corny too, don't you think? I mean would Jesus call us up just to ask us to follow him back down? Maybe not.

 
Everyone seems to think there is a great landing of believers at the second coming. Can you remind me of the verse that indicates this? I thought we all had rooms in the heavenly Jerusalem, not on the earth during the millenium, so I need to see the verse that indicates we all land back here on earth, instead of just staying up  in heaven. Rev 20 describes the "camp of the saints" here on earth , as if our presence here is just temporary , surely our permanent dwelling is heaven?
 
Have you got a verse? I would like to learn more on this topic.

Actually my brother, your point is noted. I for one do not clearly know if the Raptured saints are actually returning to the earth with Yeshua or not.

Rev: 14The armies which are in heaven followed him on white horses, clothed in white, pure, fine linen.

The passage I cited says "armies" and many believe these are angels, not believers, but notice what they are wearing? White, pure, fine linen seems to indicate overcomers, meaning believers. I'm not sure angels wear this, and it appears many of the bible experts aren't sure either because I've read commentaries on both sides.

 

 

 

======================================================================================

 

 

Spock, You have no idea who is clothed in fine linen clean and white following the LORD in HIS SECOND COMING?  NO CLUE, eh?

 

Lets See if we can come up with @ least 1 Candidate....

 

(Revelation 19:7-8) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

 

 

(Revelation 19:14) "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

 

 

 

I wonder who ONE of the Participants could be?  :noidea:

 

Maybe we should go ask some Experts?

 

 

Now do you see where this may cause some "slight" frustration?  Maybe?



#15
Spock

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You don't think angels can wear fine white clean linen too?

Rev 15:6

The seven angels who were holding the seven plagues came out of the Temple. They were clothed in spotless white linen with gold sashes across their chests.

Hmmmmm. What are they wearing? Spotless white linen. Now where have I seen that before?

#16
Enoch2021

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You don't think angels can wear fine white clean linen too?

Rev 15:6

The seven angels who were holding the seven plagues came out of the Temple. They were clothed in spotless white linen with gold sashes across their chests.

Hmmmmm. What are they wearing? Spotless white linen. Now where have I seen that before?

 

 

 

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:th_frusty:  <---------------------------------------------------  I'm exponential magnitudes beyond this, that means: Hasta la vista, Sayonara, Auf Wiedersehen.



#17
ARGOSY

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I guess they say the wedding supper is later, not before the 2nd coming. I've never really read their thoughts on this. I'm sure Argosy or The other Enoch have an explanation.
This up and back thing seems sorta corny too, don't you think? I mean would Jesus call us up just to ask us to follow him back down? Maybe not.

 
Everyone seems to think there is a great landing of believers at the second coming. Can you remind me of the verse that indicates this? I thought we all had rooms in the heavenly Jerusalem, not on the earth during the millenium, so I need to see the verse that indicates we all land back here on earth, instead of just staying up  in heaven. Rev 20 describes the "camp of the saints" here on earth , as if our presence here is just temporary , surely our permanent dwelling is heaven?
 
Have you got a verse? I would like to learn more on this topic.

Actually my brother, your point is noted. I for one do not clearly know if the Raptured saints are actually returning to the earth with Yeshua or not.

Rev: 14The armies which are in heaven followed him on white horses, clothed in white, pure, fine linen.

The passage I cited says "armies" and many believe these are angels, not believers, but notice what they are wearing? White, pure, fine linen seems to indicate overcomers, meaning believers. I'm not sure angels wear this, and it appears many of the bible experts aren't sure either because I've read commentaries on both sides.

 

 

 

I agree with Enoch 2021 that these are the saints. I always say that many views are possible, but I go with the most obvious. To me its clearly the church that is clothed in pure white linen earlier in verses 7-8, so when we see these dressed in pure white linen a few verses later I'm pretty sure the identity does not change. My question is, do we land?   I know Jesus does, because of Zechariah 14, but he seems to physically dominate the entire region, and I know too there will be this massive earthquake at the second coming, I just don't see us landing with him:

 

Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!



#18
ARGOSY

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Montana Marv...... Love where your minds at   :thumbsup:   Very Insightful.....gotta Love the Simplicity.

 

 

So your Thesis is:  If "The Church" who's Mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the World is still on the Earth during The Great Tribulation, then why the need for the Angel to proclaim it "to those who live on the Earth" in Rev 14?

 

Any takers??

 

 

Then after that:

 

How does the "Bride"----------> "The Church" (Born Again Christians), FOLLOW Christ in HIS SECOND COMING (See Rev 19) after the Marriage Supper if they're still on the Earth waiting to be "Raptured" ??

 

 

The WORD is a Two-Edged Sword.  Nothing can stand up to it, save............................THE TRUTH!!

 

 

Praise The LORD!!

 

The bride, the church , joins Jesus in the holy procession in the clouds.  This is known as the rapture. Only then does God shower his wrath on earth. When we avoid the wrath of God, this is normally in second coming context, describing the great wrath on the day of the Lord that we avoid. This wrath entails many events, a massive earthqauke, every mountain and island moved, the armies in Israel destroyed, fire and brimstone, entire regions made desolate, or burning. Part of the marriage procession of the bride is witnessing this destruction of our persecutors just after we are raptured into the clouds to meet Jesus.

 

The second coming: Matthew 24

they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

The second coming: Rev 19:

Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the [c]saints.

 

The second coming: Rev 19:

14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and  clean, were following Him on white horses.

 

 

 

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The bride, the church , joins Jesus in the holy procession in the clouds.

 

Really? Could you be a bit more specific?.....

 

THE BRIDE JOINS HIM FROM WHERE??

 

Let me remind you Brother....

 

(Revelation 22:18-19):

 

{18}"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 

 

{19} "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

 

 

Here it is....

 

(Revelation 19:1-16) "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:  {2} For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.  {3} And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.  {4} And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.  {5} And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.  {6} And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.  {7} Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

 

 

The Bride is already in Heaven.......THEN: the Marriage Supper....................THEN: The Armies that WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOW HIM in HIS SECOND COMING.  Which includes HIS WIFE/BRIDE.... "THE CHURCH" because SHE is one of them that are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

 

**** Special Note *****  Brother Argosy....... If I were you, I would tread lighter than a Church Mouse here (SEE: Revelation 22:18-19 above)

 

 

 

Hi Enoch,

 

Yes you make a good point about us coming from heaven. Thanks for pointing that out. This is consistent with other verses in the bible where we are presented to our Father in heaven.

 

1 Thessalonians 3:

11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; 12 and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; 13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

 

So we are in general agreement, maybe where we currently disagree is the speed with which the saints can both join the Father in heaven for a heavenly marriage feast, and then also come back to earth in holy procession at Armageddon ?  I believe both can occur on one day, especially since  in heaven time itself could also move at a different pace.



#19
Shar

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You don't think angels can wear fine white clean linen too?

Rev 15:6

The seven angels who were holding the seven plagues came out of the Temple. They were clothed in spotless white linen with gold sashes across their chests.

Hmmmmm. What are they wearing? Spotless white linen. Now where have I seen that before?

 

 

 

==========================================================================

 

:th_frusty:  <---------------------------------------------------  I'm exponential magnitudes beyond this, that means: Hasta la vista, Sayonara, Auf Wiedersehen.

 

An explanation for fine linen, armies and holy ones.

The scene of Rev. 19: 6 – 9 is different from that in Rev. 19: 11-21.  The fine linens given to the bride are to dress her for her wedding day.  No bridegroom takes his bride, adorned in her beauty, and then ships her out to war.  The latter part of Chapter 19 is a separate incident when John saw heaven standing open.  The armies are not his bride, but battling angels.

 

1. Fine linens

Throughout the Bible angels are dressed in fine linen.

In Ezekiel 9 and 10, Daniel 10 and 12, Rev. 15:6, etc.

 

2. Army and Armies

Throughout the Bible, angels are referred to in military terms and as an army.

Joshua 5:13-15 - ..but I am the commander of the army of the L-rd, I have now come.   The commander of the L-rd’s army replied….

Judges 5:20 – From the heavens the stars fought

Rev. 12:7 – and there was a war in heaven

All throughout the Bible G-d is referred to as “The L-rd of G-d of Hosts”.  The word for hosts (tsbaah or tsaba) means army, a mass organized for war, a battle company.

Dan. 10:13-21 – a man dressed in linen, tells Daniel not to be afraid, advises he has his answer to his prayer, but he was detained by the Prince of Persia.  Then, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help him.

Dan. 12:1 Michael, the great prince of Israel will arise

Rev. 19:14, 19 – armies of heaven

 

The angels carry out all of G-d’s commands.  They execute his judgments.  Too many to number, but for example, Mt. 13:41, Sodom and Gomorrah, and Revelation.

 

3. Holy Ones

All throughout the Bible, angels are referred to as “holy ones”.  Too many to cite here, but some are: Ps. 89:5, 7; Job 15:15, Job 5:1, Dan. 4:13, 17, 23; Mt. 25:31, I Thes. 3:13.

 

We are referred to as children of G-d, saints, beloved, brethren, believers, Abraham’s offspring, etc.  However, holy ones are referencing angels.

 

The fine linens are the dress for the bride, given for her to wear at the wedding supper, in Rev. 19:8, not to dress her for war.  She is his wife.  She is pure and unblemished: Adored.  She is not the battle company.  The battling company is the heavenly hosts, lead by The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords to execute the final war and judgment before his earthly reign begins.



#20
Spock

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hi. I like what you wrote here, and like I said to brother Enoch, you may be right. I just don't think anyone could be dogmatic. Your argument makes sense, but so does his. So when both have merit, I just count that up as Who knows?




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