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Good Friday (Lords Crucifixion) ... or not?

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#1
Macs Son

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I think both the day of Jesus' death and His subsequent resurrection is clearly stated to us in Scripture if we are paying attention to the details there.  I've always found there's much more in the Bible than we initially realize.

  1. He was crucified on preparation day, which was the day before the Passover.  (John 19:31,42; Luke 23:54; Mark 15:42; Matthew 27:62); We also have an early church father, Ignatius, circa AD107, in his letter to Trallians chapter 9, who also states, "The day of preparation then comprises the passion, the Sabbath embraces the burial and the Lords Day contains the resurrection".
  2. He was in tomb 3 nights and days, as Christ prophesied this about Himself; according to the sign of Jonah  (Matthew 12:40); also according to the symbolism that of bread of life being unavailable for 3 days before it would miraculously feed us all (Matthew 15:32 & Mark 8:2) Also according to the symbolism of the Son being lost for 3 days and found in the temple (Luke 2:46); According to the prophesy He was, Himself, the temple that would be rebuilt in 3 days (John 2:19-20; also see Matthew 26:61, 27:40, 63, Mark 15:29; According to what He told His disciples (Mark 8:31) - there's probably more.
  3. He arose on the first day of the week - Sunday the Lord's Day.  (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1,19)
  4. If we then take Jesus at His Word then 3 days, working back from Sunday at Dawn, would be: Day 3 - Saturday Evening to Sunday Dawn; Day 2 - Friday Evening to Saturday Dawn to Sunset; Day 1 - Thursday Evening thru Friday dawn to Sunset.  Jesus died just prior to the start of Passover a Sabbath Day, which according to Jewish tradition begins in the evening - therefore the rush to get Him into the tomb beforehand.  We are told He died in the 9th hour, (about 6 PM - Matthew 27:45-46). This is about as close to the real beginning of Passover as one can get.  
  5. We know that the women who followed Jesus were prevented from bringing the spices and fragrant oils they had prepared because of the Sabbath.  (Luke 23:56)   But if the Sabbath were only one day, wouldn't they have brought them after Passover was over? (i.e. if Passover was on a Wednesday (Tuesday night to Sunset Wednesday) then they could have brought them at dawn on Thursday;  If Passover was on Thursday (Wednesday night to Sunset Thursday) then they could have brought them at dawn on Friday morning.  Instead they brought them on Sunday at dawn.  This implies that their honoring of the Sabbath was over two days, the Passover Sabbath which began on Thursday Evening and ended at sunset Friday, and the normal 7th day Sabbath, which began at Sunset Friday and ended at Sunset Saturday night.  Sunday dawn then, with respect to the Sabbath, fulfills their honoring of the Sabbath and setting out before dawn to bring the oils and spices to the tomb of Jesus.
  • So I believe we are looking at a Thursday Crucifixion on preparation day.
  • We can refine our boundaries as to the year both by Scripture and  historical sources as we know Pontius Pilate reign in AD26 (Josephus 18), the year prior to the genesis of John the Baptist's ministry [Luke 3:1-6].  It ended in AD 36 prior to the visit of Vitellius in AD 36. So we have a boundary of 10 years in which to find a Passover beginning on a Thursday evening followed by a 7th day Sabbath beginning Friday Evening and ending Saturday Evening, which both fulfills the 3 nights and days Jesus stated he would spend in the tomb as well as the honoring by the Ladies of the Sabbath and their journey out to the tomb just before dawn Sunday morning.
  • Passover occurs at the full moon.  Using both the calculated Jewish Calender ( http://www.cgsf.org/dbeattie/calendar ) and the Actual Lunar cycle from that time period http://www.timeandda...tml?year-30&n=0 we come up with two dates where Passover would have started on a Thursday night, where it follows preparation day being Nissan 14 from Sunset to sunset Nissan 15. 
  • That being the Roman year of AD30, which fits more cleanly with Jesus 3 year ministry beginning after John began baptizing in AD27 and Saint Paul becoming a Christian in AD34/35.  We also get a hit on AD34 but that would appear to late to fit in with the chronology we find in Acts with regard to Stephen and Paul.
  • Jesus would have on the night of preparation day Nissan 14 been brought before the Sanhedrin and at dawn the following morning, still by Hebrew standards Nissan 14, to Pilate. In the sixth hour, or around noon time, He was crucified and by the ninth hour he had expired on the cross (about 3 PM).  Passover, Nissan 15 officially began with the full moon at 9:37 that evening.  That gives Joseph time to ask Pilate and with Nicodemus hurredly able to place Jesus' body in the tomb before it before breaking the Sabbath. 
  • The Passover Sabbath ran from Thursday 9:37 PM to sunset or even later Friday, and then became the Sabbath
  • The 7th day Sabbath then began Friday Evening and lasted to Saturday evening
  • Jesus arose the next day Sunday Nissan 17 at about Dawn after being dead before the end of Nissan 14, the whole day of Nissan 15 (Passover), the 7th day Sabbath honoring the rest of the Lord (Nissan 16).
  • Praise to the Sabbath rest of Passover, by which the curse was passed over, and the 7th day Sabbath where God rested His work it being completely accomplished on the 7th day.  On the 8th day, or the first day of our weekly cycle, He then arose in fullness and Glory.

 

In Christ, Patrick


Edited by Macs Son, 07 June 2014 - 01:38 PM.

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Cletus

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I doubt Christ was born on december 25 either but I know because I know because I know, that its special to Him when you celebrate on december 25. I do find all of the information posted interesting because I am not so good with dates and numbers. Very helpful, thanks all.
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#3
Macs Son

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Yes, dating Christ's birth can be somewhat complex because there is nothing explicit given to us to date it exactly.  Even the cycle of Abijiah leaves us with select dates and not a date.  However, there is a route to a December birth as well. It is possible only given the following interpretation of clues we are given:
Luke 1:24 and 36 could be both Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy and the sixth month of the Jewish calendar.
"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to Nazareth, Galilee.
"Now indeed Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son and this is now the sixth month."
If it was the sixth Jewish month according to the Jewish Calendar we can calculate the month. Tishri would be the first Jewish month, Rosh Hashana - the Jewish New Year(which falls in either Sept/Oct) the sixth month is Adar, which falls in February or March. 9 months later brings us to November/December.
We also know that the course of Abijiah was the 8th priestly course, and he would have served in late Iyyar and early Kislev during ordinary time. But the priestly courses are not only during ordinary time but also during the Jewish feasts, when all are called on to serve. He therefore would have served during Nisan, Tishrei and Sivan as well. So nothing is ruled out concerning a date in November or December.
Hippolytus, a 2nd century historian and John Chrysotom (AD347-407) were also both proponents of the December 25th date. However this is not a strong argument, only one which is possible.
I myself am a proponent of John the Baptist's conception being in 4BC, which places it near September 22nd.
Elizabeth would have completed her sixth month possibly by March 22nd of 3BC. Mary conceiving Jesus via the Holy Spirit, which overshadowed her,in Elizabeth's 6th month then does not put Christmas day 3 BC out of the question. But we cannot rule out other possible dates or the fact that Luke may only be stating both times the context of Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy rather than the 6th Jewish month and her 6th month of pregnancy.
In Christ, Patrick

Edited by Macs Son, 10 June 2014 - 08:10 PM.

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#4
Macs Son

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I doubt Christ was born on december 25 either but I know because I know because I know, that its special to Him when you celebrate on december 25. I do find all of the information posted interesting because I am not so good with dates and numbers. Very helpful, thanks all.

BTW
The dating of Herod's death was miscalculated by a Biblical scholar, Emil Schurer (1844–1910), even though later research has proven him wrong the history channel and present day Biblical scholars still repeat the miscalculation of Herod's death being in 4BC. More recent scholarship however has affixed Herod's death to 1 BC, specifically before April of that year. Josephus, a Jewish historian, stated that Herod died after a Jewish fast in the 37th year of his reign. He also tells us the 192 Olympiad was in the 28th year of his reign so the 37th year of his reign would have to be between April of 2BC and April of 1 BC.
11 BC End of the 192nd Olympiad (June -11) in his 28th year of reign. XVI:136
04 BC Augustus approves establishing a kingship for Herod's sons before dismissing the legation of Varus, which ran from 6BC to 4 BC.
April of 02BC Was the beginning of his 37 year reign as described in Josephus
January 26th 1 BC is when the latest scholarship affixes Herod death.
This would have preceded the completion of his 37th year as King.
This also fits the narrative of his sending his soldiers out to kill male boys under the age of 2 at Bethlehem. Jesus would have been about 13 months old then and Herod, not knowing exactly when the child was born but only when the wise men came, would have wanted a wide enough margin to ensure the foretold king and messiah would not escape his net. Choosing +/- 1 year would seem to fit the narrative if Christ was indeed born somewhere in December of 3BC. If so it would have been Herod's last vicious act in this world since he did not survive long afterwards.
In Christ, Pat

Edited by Macs Son, 28 June 2014 - 02:45 PM.

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#5
Joline

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Not sure where the friction is coming from, but I'm multicultural.  Lived in difference countries, and EVERYWHERE I've lived either celebrates or acknowledges GOOD FRIDAY.  Uh, that would have been THIS Friday just passed BTW.

 

I mean, some countries make hot CROSS buns (to commemorate the Cross of Jesus) and fishcakes.

 

My sons school was even closed for Good FRIDAY.  His wasn't the only one either, and it's not a "Christian" school.  LOL

 

Some countries celebrate Good FRIDAY with a day off from work (not all American holidays are observed, just like some holidays are bigger overseas than what they are here).  It's an actual holiday.

 

Some counties even have men making their own kites to fly.  Traditionally in the shape of the cross, but have since evolved to more elaborate patterns.  And they fly them on Good FRIDAY.

 

I'm 40 years old.  Raised by devout Christians.  Probably been to more Churches in more countries than you've been to nightclubs.  I've NEVER heard a preacher preach a Thursday crucifixion.  Never.  And if I have, I was too disinterested to care or compute it to memory.  It has ALWAYS been the Friday night crucifixion and Sunday morning resurrection.

 

In fact, my Church held a special afternoon service on FRIDAY.

 

 

 

So ... I'm not sure how you can't understand that FRIDAY is the TRADITION view.  I mean really?  The world JUST CELEBRATED GOOD FRIDAY. Didn't it?  I mean, did I miss something? 

 

Ever heard of "good Thursday"?  Interestingly enough, neither have I. 

 

Google it.  Bing search it.  Ya-hoo til your hearts content.  When you find such a thing called "good Thursday", let us know.  Until then, well, ....

 

 

No friend, there is no invention of a straw man in my world.  And as typical, there is always one who misses the intention of created threads.   And do I really need "data" for this obvious things?  I mean ... really?  Anyone not living under a rock should know these things.  This is not an academic issue (and I am at the Post-Graduate [Doctorate] level).  It has nothing to do with that.  This is just ... common knowledge - knowledge we acquire just by LIVING in the world.

 

 

The TRADITIONAL view is, because of its sheer history and application and observance, a Friday crucifixion.

 

The BIBLICAL views, is a Thursday crucifixion.

 

 

We agree on the DAY He was crucified, but I'm not sure how you get Thursday as the traditional view.  Even the secular world says He was crucified on the Friday.

I have heard of maudy Thursday. This is a renenactment of the last supper washing of the apostles feet.

From wikki

Thursday (also known as Holy Thursday, Covenant Thursday, Great and Holy Thursday, Sheer Thursday and Thursday of Mysteries) is the Christian holy day, falling on the Thursday before Easter. It commemorates the Maundy and Last Supper of Jesus Christ with the Apostles as described in the Canonical gospels.[1] It is the fifth day of Holy Week, and is preceded by Holy Wednesday and followed by Good Friday


Edited by Joline, 05 July 2014 - 12:15 AM.

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#6
Joline

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Yes, dating Christ's birth can be somewhat complex because there is nothing explicit given to us to date it exactly.  Even the cycle of Abijiah leaves us with select dates and not a date.  However, there is a route to a December birth as well. It is possible only given the following interpretation of clues we are given:
Luke 1:24 and 36 could be both Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy and the sixth month of the Jewish calendar.
"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to Nazareth, Galilee.
"Now indeed Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son and this is now the sixth month."
If it was the sixth Jewish month according to the Jewish Calendar we can calculate the month. Tishri would be the first Jewish month, Rosh Hashana - the Jewish New Year(which falls in either Sept/Oct) the sixth month is Adar, which falls in February or March. 9 months later brings us to November/December.
We also know that the course of Abijiah was the 8th priestly course, and he would have served in late Iyyar and early Kislev during ordinary time. But the priestly courses are not only during ordinary time but also during the Jewish feasts, when all are called on to serve. He therefore would have served during Nisan, Tishrei and Sivan as well. So nothing is ruled out concerning a date in November or December.
Hippolytus, a 2nd century historian and John Chrysotom (AD347-407) were also both proponents of the December 25th date. However this is not a strong argument, only one which is possible.
I myself am a proponent of John the Baptist's conception being in 4BC, which places it near September 22nd.
Elizabeth would have completed her sixth month possibly by March 22nd of 3BC. Mary conceiving Jesus via the Holy Spirit, which overshadowed her,in Elizabeth's 6th month then does not put Christmas day 3 BC out of the question. But we cannot rule out other possible dates or the fact that Luke may only be stating both times the context of Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy rather than the 6th Jewish month and her 6th month of pregnancy.
In Christ, Patrick

You might find this interesting. This is a post which I asked and received permisson to copy and use. It was in response to a poster which brought up the courses of the priesthood. I hope you enjoy. This poster indeed mentions knowing a fixed date which I bolded below

 

"This is the single most common mistake of students who attempt to date the birth of Jesus based on the service of the priestly courses.

There were 24 courses of priests who served in the Temple, each serving one week until all 24 courses had served and then the rotation began again. The problem arises at the end of the year. 24 courses serving two weeks each gives a total of 48 weeks of service. However, the Jewish year is 50 weeks plus 4 days long. So on the 49th week, the rotation would begin again and the 1st course would serve the 49th week, the 2nd course the 50th week, and the 3rd course the 4 days plus three days of the next year. That would mean the 4th course would then serve the first full week of the new year, the 5th course the second week, the 6th course the third week, etc. Go ahead and get out a pencil and figure this out for yourself, you don't need to go to some website to see what someone else has to say about it, do your own calculations. It is simply not possible for the first course to serve the first week every year without violating the order in which they served.

And to prove that what I'm saying is accurate, according to Mr. Hargis' calculations, when the Temple was destroyed on the 9th Ab, the 19th course of Pethahiah should have been on duty. But according to both the Talmudic tractate Taanith (On Feasting and Fast Days, 29A) and well as Josephus who was an eyewitness to the destruction, (Wars, VI:4, 1, 5) it wasn't the 19th course as Mr. Hargi's calculations would have it but it was in fact the 1st course, that of Jehoirib that was on duty, which proves the 1st course/1st week, 2nd course/2nd week calculations are incorrect. The Jewish year consists of 6 months of 29 days and 6 months of 30 days for a total of 354 days. But 24 courses serving two weeks each would only total 48 weeks, short of filling the year by 2 weeks and 4 days. And then when an extra whole month was added to correct the calendar, it throws off the caculations even further because the priestly courses had to continue their ordering of service even during these extra weeks.

Now, having a fixed date that we know with certainty what course was serving on the 9th Ab of 70 C.E., and if we caculate backwards to the year before Jesus' birth, which is 6 B.C., we find that in fact the priestly course of Abijah was on duty from the 2nd to the 9th of October, the 23rd Elul to the 1st Tishri, or concluding on the feast of Trumpets and the beginning of the New Year.

Now bring forward all your calculations and you'll find Elizabeth's sixth month to fall between the middle of March and the middle of April (since ancient times March 25 has been observed for the annunication to Mary). Then count forward three more months and John would have been born around the middle of June (the ancient date for the feast of John's nativity is June 24). Then count forward another six months and you come to December 25 for the birth of Jesus.

So once again, the actual evidence supports the December dating.
"

 


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#7
Macs Son

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Yes, dating Christ's birth can be somewhat complex because there is nothing explicit given to us to date it exactly.  Even the cycle of Abijiah leaves us with select dates and not a date.  However, there is a route to a December birth as well. It is possible only given the following interpretation of clues we are given:
Luke 1:24 and 36 could be both Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy and the sixth month of the Jewish calendar.
"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to Nazareth, Galilee.
"Now indeed Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son and this is now the sixth month."
If it was the sixth Jewish month according to the Jewish Calendar we can calculate the month. Tishri would be the first Jewish month, Rosh Hashana - the Jewish New Year(which falls in either Sept/Oct) the sixth month is Adar, which falls in February or March. 9 months later brings us to November/December.
We also know that the course of Abijiah was the 8th priestly course, and he would have served in late Iyyar and early Kislev during ordinary time. But the priestly courses are not only during ordinary time but also during the Jewish feasts, when all are called on to serve. He therefore would have served during Nisan, Tishrei and Sivan as well. So nothing is ruled out concerning a date in November or December.
Hippolytus, a 2nd century historian and John Chrysotom (AD347-407) were also both proponents of the December 25th date. However this is not a strong argument, only one which is possible.
I myself am a proponent of John the Baptist's conception being in 4BC, which places it near September 22nd.
Elizabeth would have completed her sixth month possibly by March 22nd of 3BC. Mary conceiving Jesus via the Holy Spirit, which overshadowed her,in Elizabeth's 6th month then does not put Christmas day 3 BC out of the question. But we cannot rule out other possible dates or the fact that Luke may only be stating both times the context of Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy rather than the 6th Jewish month and her 6th month of pregnancy.
In Christ, Patrick

You might find this interesting. This is a post which I asked and received permisson to copy and use. It was in response to a poster which brought up the courses of the priesthood. I hope you enjoy. This poster indeed mentions knowing a fixed date which I bolded below
 
"This is the single most common mistake of students who attempt to date the birth of Jesus based on the service of the priestly courses.

There were 24 courses of priests who served in the Temple, each serving one week until all 24 courses had served and then the rotation began again. The problem arises at the end of the year. 24 courses serving two weeks each gives a total of 48 weeks of service. However, the Jewish year is 50 weeks plus 4 days long. So on the 49th week, the rotation would begin again and the 1st course would serve the 49th week, the 2nd course the 50th week, and the 3rd course the 4 days plus three days of the next year. That would mean the 4th course would then serve the first full week of the new year, the 5th course the second week, the 6th course the third week, etc. Go ahead and get out a pencil and figure this out for yourself, you don't need to go to some website to see what someone else has to say about it, do your own calculations. It is simply not possible for the first course to serve the first week every year without violating the order in which they served.

And to prove that what I'm saying is accurate, according to Mr. Hargis' calculations, when the Temple was destroyed on the 9th Ab, the 19th course of Pethahiah should have been on duty. But according to both the Talmudic tractate Taanith (On Feasting and Fast Days, 29A) and well as Josephus who was an eyewitness to the destruction, (Wars, VI:4, 1, 5) it wasn't the 19th course as Mr. Hargi's calculations would have it but it was in fact the 1st course, that of Jehoirib that was on duty, which proves the 1st course/1st week, 2nd course/2nd week calculations are incorrect. The Jewish year consists of 6 months of 29 days and 6 months of 30 days for a total of 354 days. But 24 courses serving two weeks each would only total 48 weeks, short of filling the year by 2 weeks and 4 days. And then when an extra whole month was added to correct the calendar, it throws off the caculations even further because the priestly courses had to continue their ordering of service even during these extra weeks.

Now, having a fixed date that we know with certainty what course was serving on the 9th Ab of 70 C.E., and if we caculate backwards to the year before Jesus' birth, which is 6 B.C., we find that in fact the priestly course of Abijah was on duty from the 2nd to the 9th of October, the 23rd Elul to the 1st Tishri, or concluding on the feast of Trumpets and the beginning of the New Year.

Now bring forward all your calculations and you'll find Elizabeth's sixth month to fall between the middle of March and the middle of April (since ancient times March 25 has been observed for the annunication to Mary). Then count forward three more months and John would have been born around the middle of June (the ancient date for the feast of John's nativity is June 24). Then count forward another six months and you come to December 25 for the birth of Jesus.

So once again, the actual evidence supports the December dating.
"

Hi Joline,
Thank you for your post but actually I was stating that you can only eliminate dates by the course of Abijiah and not pinpoint an exact date, since he would have served twice during the year during the ordinary cycle plus also during the feast days. Now I'm not sure if the poster you are quoting took the feast days into account or not in his postings but certainly their fixing a date of 6BC is a great leap of faith to take without any documentation of how he actually arrived there.

if we caculate backwards to the year before Jesus' birth, which is 6 B.C.

In a previous post I stated the reasons why a year of 4-3 BC is a pretty good fit for the birth of our Lord - alsa fits Luke pretty well. This of course if you follow John's account of a 2 and 1/2 year ministry of Jesus, which began in AD 27 and ended in AD 30.

Luke 3:23
Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,

Also most earlier datings on the year of the Lord's birth are based on a faulty premise of Herod's death occurring in 4 BC.

The dating of Herod's death was miscalculated by a Biblical scholar, Emil Schurer (1844–1910), even though later research has proven him wrong the history channel and present day Biblical scholars still repeat the miscalculation of Herod's death being in 4BC. More recent scholarship however has affixed Herod's death to 1 BC, specifically before April of that year. Josephus, a Jewish historian, stated that Herod died after a Jewish fast in the 37th year of his reign. He also tells us the 192 Olympiad was in the 28th year of his reign so the 37th year of his reign would have to be between April of 2BC and April of 1 BC.
11 BC End of the 192nd Olympiad (June -11) in his 28th year of reign. XVI:136
04 BC Augustus approves establishing a kingship for Herod's sons before dismissing the legation of Varus, which ran from 6BC to 4 BC.
April of 02BC Was the beginning of his 37 year reign as described in Josephus
January 26th 1 BC is when the latest scholarship affixes Herod death.
This would have preceded the completion of his 37th year as King.
This also fits the narrative of his sending his soldiers out to kill male boys under the age of 2 at Bethlehem. Jesus would have been about 13 months old then and Herod, not knowing exactly when the child was born but only when the wise men came, would have wanted a wide enough margin to ensure the foretold king and messiah would not escape his net. Choosing +/- 1 year would seem to fit the narrative if Christ was indeed born somewhere in December of 3BC. If so it would have been Herod's last vicious act in this world since he did not survive long afterwards.
In Christ, Pat

While I believe Luke's reference to the sixth month may indeed be the sixth month of the Jewish calendar many would disagree with me. It does indeed line of with the Biblical priestly courses and the holidays in which Zacharias
could have served and does get us to a December birth, which some of the early church fathers also indicated to us. That said this is not an exact science but circumstantial but I'm still a proponent of a December date based on the early evidence.
May the Lord Bless, Pat
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From what I understand he died wednesday and rose saturday.  On Sunday he was revealed.


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From what I understand he died wednesday and rose saturday.  On Sunday he was revealed.

Hi Wildstar,
Not sure where you received that particular understanding but it is not according to Scripture.

Matthew 28:1-3
Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.

Mark 16:2-5
Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. And they said among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?" But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away—for it was very large. And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.

Mark 16:9-10
Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept.

Luke 24:1-7
Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.' "


John 20:1-9
Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in.Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed.For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.


May the Lord Bless, Pat
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Reformed Baptist

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Scripture says, THREE days and THREE nights.

 

It does matter, because it's the Word of God.

 

The Church, and the whole world has taught us, TWO days and TWO nights.

 

Well, it would have to be two if Jesus was crucified on Friday night and rose Sunday morning.

 

 

So, the core question is, WHO TOLD US THAT IT WAS FRIDAY EVENING?

 

Truth is, no one told us that it was Friday.  The world has ASSUMED that it was Friday by, because the Scriptures say that they rushed Jesus' body down to prepare FOR THE SABBATH.  Apparently, we all saw "Sabbath" and instantly thought of Saturday.  So, we were all told something, and hardly anyone attempted to validate - not scholar nor priest nor pastor nor academic.

 

So, what I'm about to type to you will shake the very foundation of what you've been told.

 

 

PASSOVER.

 

In Leviticus 23, we see that the PASSOVER also is a Sabbath, commonly called the HIGH SABBATH.

 

Jesus and His 12 were preparing for ... the PASSOVER.

 

So, the Sabbath that they were trying to stay ahead of, wasn't the Saturday Sabbath, but instead the PASSOVER SABBATH, which would have fallen on the Friday, which means Jesus had to have been crucified ON THE THURSDAY.

 

OK, I know that just words to most of you.  So, don't take my word for it, instead take JOHNS word for it.

 

In John 19:31 John mentions the Sabbath, but he also makes it clear as to WHAT TYPE OF SABBATH.  He calls this Sabbath the "HIGH DAY", meaning, it was not the Saturday Sabbath that we all think it was, but instead it is the HIGH SABBATH OF THE PASSOVER.

 

All these centuries.  All the times we have collectively read that ... and we didn't even notice.

 

JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED ON THURSDAY, NOT FRIDAY.

 

 

Summary

1) Leviticus 23 gives us the root that the Passover is a Sabbath

2) John clearly shows us that it was the "high day", which is the Passover Sabbath, not the common Saturday Sabbath

3) The Greek word for Sabbath is also PLURAL (you can find "Sabbaths" in the English Old Testament, but "Sabbaths" does not exist in the NT, only "Sabbath days")

4) The Scripture about the women at the tomb of Jesus should be properly rendered as "Sabbaths" or "Sabbath days", not "Sabbath".  Why?  Because the Passover Sabbath was on FRIDAY and the regular Sabbath was on Saturday.  There were TWO SABBATHS.

 

That is how we have gotten it wrong for all these centuries.  We simply ASSUMED that the "Sabbath" meant Saturday, but we completely overlooked the PASSOVER SABBATH, which would have fallen ON the Friday ... meaning Jesus had to have been crucified ON the Thursday.

 

 

BOTTOM LINE:

 

This is how Jesus could have been in the earth for THREE days and THREE nights.  The traditional teaching that we have suggest TWO days and TWO nights ... and it's wrong.

 

It does matter, because it's the Word of God.

 

 

Now, of course it's too commercial and worldly, so don't expect it to change.  But, know the truth and share the truth with your pastors, teachers, friends, coworkers, and family.

This is such a common error that I am surprised more people cannot adequately respond to it. It is the error of not comparing scripture with scripture but rather focusing upon one passage and ignoring others and investing that one passage with your own a priori assumptions. The sign of Jonah must only mean 72 literal hours if that is, in fact, how long Jonah was in the belly of the fish - however if the timing for Jonah was only approximate, ie parts of days counted as whole days then it is possible for it mean the same in regards to the Lord's burial. 

 

The scripture are clear that the Lord Jesus Christ did not rise after 3 days and 3 nights - but rather on the third day! 

 

For example, in Luke 24:21 when Jesus is talking to Cleopas and his companion on the road to Emmaus we read this, "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened." As this was the first day of the week (Sunday) that means the crucifixion had to have been on the Friday. If Jesus Christ had been in the tomb for 72 hours it would have been the fourth day.  

 

1 Corinthians is the earliest written account of the resurrection (pre-dating the gospel records) and this is what Paul has to say, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, (1Co 15:4 NKJ). 

 

This is what the word of God says as well - so unless the word of God contradicts itself (or unless Jesus was wrong) there has to be a way to reconcile the sign of Jonah with the clear biblical evidence that the resurrection happened on the third day. Happily for us there is a way to do so, and begins by understanding that one should never insert our modern western precision into our interpretation of the text - especially when there is evidence that the writers did not always speak in such precise terms, there is actually a very similar incident in the book of Esther. Again it is there days and three nights and the third day, compare: 

 

Esther 4:16 "Go, gather all the Jews who are present in Shushan, and fast for me; neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. My maids and I will fast likewise. And so I will go to the king, which is against the law; and if I perish, I perish!"

 

And 

 

Esther 5:1 Now it happened on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace, across from the king's house, while the king sat on his royal throne in the royal house, facing the entrance of the house


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#11
Macs Son

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For example, in Luke 24:21 when Jesus is talking to Cleopas and his companion on the road to Emmaus we read this, "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened." As this was the first day of the week (Sunday) that means the crucifixion had to have been on the Friday. If Jesus Christ had been in the tomb for 72 hours it would have been the fourth day.  [/color]

Hi Reformed Baptist,
Except the Jewish day, unlike the Western day, begins in the evening, when the moon rises. This has always been the case and it is the same way they count the days of Genesis ("evening then morning the first day")
Jesus was crucified on Preparation Day, Thursday but died in the afternoon and was buried in the evening. His burial, still officialy on preparation Day, was hurried, because they could do nothing once it became Passover. So officially it was still before Moon Rise and therefore before the Sabbath rest. In AD30 the Passover started on Thursday Evening at Moon Rise and Christ was crucified just prior to the Sabbath rest. But the Sabbath they are speaking about happens the Day after preparation Day and that was the Sabbath of Passover and not the ordinary Sabbath.
 

Mark 15:42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
John 19:14-42 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” ....
John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
.....But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.....So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby
Luke 23:54-56 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

The Sabbath was a two day Sabbath that year the Passover Sabbath followed by the ordinary Sabbath.
Luke 24:1-2 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, [fn] came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb.

So:
Day#1 Thursday evening before moon rise started the Sabbath to Friday Evening (Thursday evening was the Sabbath of Passover in AD30.
Day#2 Friday evening to Saturday Evening (The ordinary Sabbath - 2 in a row makes it a high Sabbath)
Day#3 Saturday evening to Sunday Dawn - the 3rd Day, less that 72 hours but 3 days and 3 nights

In Christ, Pat

Edited by Macs Son, 20 July 2014 - 04:09 PM.

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#12
Reformed Baptist

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For example, in Luke 24:21 when Jesus is talking to Cleopas and his companion on the road to Emmaus we read this, "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened." As this was the first day of the week (Sunday) that means the crucifixion had to have been on the Friday. If Jesus Christ had been in the tomb for 72 hours it would have been the fourth day.  [/color]

Hi Reformed Baptist,
Except the Jewish day, unlike the Western day, begins in the evening, when the moon rises. This has always been the case and it is the same way they count the days of Genesis ("evening then morning the first day")

Although true it is immaterial to the equation because it still works out the same

 

Fri - placed in tomb -- Day 1

Sat (beginning at sunset) -- Day 2

Sun (beginning at sunset) -- Day 3

 

Morning resurrection on the Sunday would be the third day since his burial, and clearly according to Luke 24:21 which occurs on Sunday afternoon it was the third day! 

 

 

 

Jesus was crucified on Preparation Day, Thursday but died in the afternoon and was buried in the evening. His burial, still officialy on preparation Day, was hurried, because they could do nothing once it became Passover. So officially it was still before Moon Rise and therefore before the Sabbath rest. In AD30 the Passover started on Thursday Evening at Moon Rise and Christ was crucified just prior to the Sabbath rest.

 

What year did Jesus die?

 

I am sorry my friend but this line of reasoning is full of assumptions that have no biblical or historical support at all! 

 

Firstly we do not know with absolute certainty what year Jesus was born (4BC most likely) 

 

Secondly note that we do not know how old Jesus was when he began his ministry, The only record we have is found in Luke's gospel and he says Jesus was about 30. Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, (Luk 3:23 NKJ)

 

Thirdly we do not know how long his ministry lasted, it is assumed that it lasted a little over three years based upon the feasts mentioned in the Gospel of John however John may have only mentioned the feasts that were relevant - In truth Jesus' ministry could have been longer.

 

A conservative estimate would put the crucifixion between AD28 and AD34 so we cannot with certainty work the dates back and come to a conclusion about which was the day of preparation. 

 

One Sabbath or Two Sabbaths?

 

Now let's come to the scriptural references you posted my friend.

 

Notice that both Mark and Luke say it was the preparation day for the Sabbath, only John mentions a preparation day for the passover.  However John also says it was the preparation day for the Sabbath σαββάτῳ (Singular) and he goes onto say that Sabbath σαββάτου (singular )was a high day. So clearly it was the preparation day for both the sabbath and the passover however the use of the term sabbath in the singular strongly suggests these 'sabbaths' both occurred on the same day.

 

Now we come to examine what is said about the period of time after the burial: 

 

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath (σάββατον - singular) according to the commandment. (NKJ)

 

So, the women rested on the Sabbath (singular) not on the Sabbaths (plural) this strongly suggests that there was just one full day between the burial and resurrection  

 

Now we come onto the events of Sunday morning and we read: 

 

Mark 16:1 Now when the Sabbath (σαββάτου - singular) was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. (NKJ) 

 

So again, when the Sabbath was past, not when the Sabbaths were past. Of course Matthew does use the word 'Sabbaths' (σαββάτων) in his parallel account (Mat 28:1) however considering what the other Gospel writers say it is same to assume that his Gospel record is confirming what we already know that the Sabbath and the passover were the same day that year. 

 

 

 

So:
Day#1 Thursday evening before moon rise started the Sabbath to Friday Evening (Thursday evening was the Sabbath of Passover in AD30.
Day#2 Friday evening to Saturday Evening (The ordinary Sabbath - 2 in a row makes it a high Sabbath)
Day#3 Saturday evening to Sunday Dawn - the 3rd Day, less that 72 hours but 3 days and 3 nights

 

Third day or after 3 literal days and 3 literal nights? 

 

Well, we have already seen that the a priori assumption that Jesus died in AD30 is just that - an assumption :D

 

However there is another problem with your logic - what you say does not equal 3 days and three nights!  

 

Thursday evening ( 1 day)

Thur Night to Fri evening (1 night & 1 Day)

Fri night to Sat evening (1 night & 1 Day)

Sat night to Sun Morning (1 night & 1 Day)

 

Now, potentially depending upon how you choose to count days you might suggest that I drop either the first day in that list or the last, however even if I did that I still end up with three days in the tomb yet the scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ rose on the third day and was seen by people on the third day. 

 

Luke 24:21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. (NKJ)

 

Luke 24:46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, ( NKJ)

 

Acts 10:40 "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,  (NKJ)
 
1 Corinthians 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, (NKJ)
 
This is also what Jesus Christ prophesied would happen: 
 
Matthew 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. (NKJ)
 
Matthew 17:23 "and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up." And they were exceedingly sorrowful. (NKJ)
 
Matthew 20:19 "and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again." (NKJ)
 
See also, Mar 9:31, 10:34, Luk 9:22, 13:32, 18:33 for parallel passages in other gospels. 
 
Interestingly even his enemies understood this to be the case, Matthew 27:64 "Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away , and say to the people,`He has risen from the dead.' So the last deception will be worse than the first." (NKJ)
 
In conclusion to put Jesus in the tomb for three days forces us to conclude that the gospel writers, the apostle Paul and also the Lord Jesus Christ got the prophecies wrong and also got the length of the burial wrong, for if he was in the tomb for 3 days he must have been raised on the fourth day, all for the sake of one an ambiguous prophecy that Jesus Christ made,  which certain hermeneutics demand must be understood not in a grammatical/ historical context or in the light of the rest of scripture but rather in a 19th century rationalistic and woodenly literal way that ignore's genre etc :D of course the solution to the sign of Jonah is found in Ester as I have already pointed out.   
 
 

Edited by Reformed Baptist, 24 July 2014 - 01:49 PM.

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#13
Macs Son

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Although true it is immaterial to the equation because it still works out the same
 
Fri - placed in tomb -- Day 1
Sat (beginning at sunset) -- Day 2
Sun (beginning at sunset) -- Day 3
 
Morning resurrection on the Sunday would be the third day since his burial, and clearly according to Luke 24:21 which occurs on Sunday afternoon it was the third day!



Hi Reformed Baptist,
Well, in matters of faith I certainly don't deem this to be of crucial importance to either of us but I do think it is worth looking into a bit more if you'd like. We clearly both seem to believe in a Sunday predawn to dawn resurrection according to Scripture. And while Scripture doesn't exactly tell us what Roman day of the week that our Lord was crucified I believe what I have stated previously was reliable information. My whole reason in looking at this in detail is for reliability purposes. Perhaps it may be helpful towards apologetics as well. Diligence is always worth pursuing and testing.

I did illustrate the 3 Jewish days of Christ burial. Here it is once more:

Day 1: Thursday evening to Friday sunset (the evening and the morning were the first day.)
Day 2: Friday night to Saturday sunset (the evening and the morning were the 2nd day.)
Day 3: Saturday night to Sunday Morning (the evening and the morning were the 3rd day.))

Now I think you may have inferred Jesus was in the tomb before the appearance of the full moon, which somehow you think should count for an extra day. Now, while I do believe they did manage to roll that stone up before the appearance of the full moon that night, I'm pretty certain that they did not make it by much. The thing is you have about at least 15 hours remaining after dawn on Sunday to account vs. perhaps an hour, if that, on that night, so not seeing the point.

By Jewish Day of reckoning - they did not follow Western code so the Friday really doesn't work out
Friday Evening to Saturday Sunset (So the evening and the morning were the first day.)
Sat (beginning at sunset) to Sunday Sunset -- Day 2
But Christ was raised on "Sunday morning" - that's problematic, since it is only two days

So if we use a Friday reckoning of the crucifixion we only have 2 days and not three. But there are further problems here as well. The Gospels clearly show us Jesus was crucified on Preparation day, which is the day before Passover the holy Sabbath unto the Jews.

Now unless the Passover fell on a Saturday this also does not line up with the Gospels either. Now AD 30 does happen to line up with the 3 Jewish days of reckoning, according to the Scriptures. There are others such as AD31 and AD34 as well. I do have a specific Scriptural reference for choosing AD30 though but first let's examine a Preparation Day Crucifixion and burial just before the Passover Sabbath that would line up with a Friday evening burial - the normal Sabbath.
As seen below:

So Nisan 14, Preparation Day, began on Wednesday Evening and Ended on Thursday at sunset, for in AD30 the Passover began at the sighting of the Full Moon @ 9:37 PM. So Nissan 14 covers, in Roman time, Wednesday Eve and Thursday Day. Since Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour, i.e. noon, that would have been Thursday April 6th AD30. He died at about 3 PM and Joseph of Arimathea had to ask to have Jesus' crucified body transferred to his garden tomb. Nicodemus and he the would have only had just a few hours to bury Him before the moon rose, which would have been Nisan15, the start of the high Sabbath of the Holy Passover.

The Gospel of John indeed tells us the crucifixion ended just before a Sabbath which was a high day.


Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


But you say you have no reason to believe Jesus was crucified in AD 30? That's fine, we can have that discussion why it does line up very well with Scripture but let's table that for now and consider your point instead of mine.

You're advocating for a Friday crucifixion. So I think you would agree that it has to be both the night after preparation day (i.e Passover) and also a Friday night/Saturday eve Sabbath right? In order to follow the Scriptures I'm stating that this must needs be so. The problem is that when we look for a Passover beginning on a Friday Evening that's problematic, whereas a Thursday is not. Let's examine this:

We can refine our exact boundary years as to the year both by Scripture and historical sources, as we know Pontius Pilate, who sentenced Jesus to crucifixion, began his reign in AD26 (Josephus 18), the year prior to the genesis of John the Baptist's ministry [Luke 3:1-6].
Pilate reign also subsequently ended prior to the visit of Vitellius in AD 36. AD27 is also unlikely since this is when John began his ministry and we know Jesus ministry was at least one year and by John's reckoning almost 3 years. One reason AD30 isn't just a swag AD27 to AD30 is 3 years. But to your point, can we find a Passover in those years of AD28 to AD36 that falls on the traditional Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset?)

I put down AD27 anyway, although we know it couldn't have occurred in that year.



Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

This would be AD27.

Now as we go through the Hebrew calendars for these dates please recall that Nissan 15 begins at the sighting of the moon.

AD27 Nissan to the left & Roman April to the right; Nissan 15 Passover began on Thursday at sunset

Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St
04 05 06 07 08 09 10 30 31 01 02 03 04 05 April
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 06 07 08 09 10 11 12

AD28 Nissan to the left & Roman April to the right; Nissan doesn't work, since Passover began on Tuesday at sunset
Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St
06 07 08 09 10 11 12 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 25 26 27 28 29 30 01 May

AD29 Nissan to the left & Roman April to the right; Nissan (doesn't work either since Passover began on Sunday at sunset
Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St
08 09 10 11 12 13 14 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

AD30 Nissan to the left & Roman April to the right;
Nissan (of course is the date that I'm proposing where Passover began Thursday evening in early April)

Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St
04 05 06 07 08 09 10 26 27 28 29 30 31 01 April
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 02 03 04 05 06 07 08

So Nisan 14, Preparation Day, began on Wednesday Evening and Ended on Thursday at sunset, when Passover began at the sighting of the Full Moon @ 9:37 PM. So Nissan 14 covers in Roman time Wednesday Eve and Thursday Day. Since Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour, around noon that day. Going by my reckoning that would have been Thursday April 6th AD30. He died at about 3 PM according to the Scriptures and we have to give time for Joseph of Arimathea to ask Pilate to have Jesus' crucified body transferred to his garden tomb. By the time he got approval Joseph and Nicodemus would have only had mere hours, a few or or less, in order to bury our Lord before sunset, which would have been Nisan 15 the Holy Passover.
The Calendar for AD30 above shows this would have occurred on Thursday


AD31 Nissan to the left again April to the right - again Passover starts on Thursday Evening in late April
Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St
04 05 06 07 08 09 10 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 April
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 22 23 24 25 26 27 28

AD32 Nissan to the left & Roman April to the right - Passover starts on Tuesday Evening
Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St
06 07 08 09 10 11 12 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 April
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

AD33 Nissan to the left & Roman April to the right - Passover starts on Saturday Evening
Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St
09 10 11 12 13 14 15 29 30 31 1 2 3 4 April

AD34 Nissan to the left & Roman April to the right - Passover starts on Thursday Evening
Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St Su Mn Tu Wd Th Fr St
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 April 

AD35 Nissan to the left & Roman April to the right - Passover starts on Tuesday Evening
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 April

AD36 (the last possible year) Nissan to the left & Roman March to the right, shows Passover beginning on Saturday at Sunset
09 10 11 12 13 14 15 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 March.

As I said before, there are other reasons for the AD30 date but this post is long enough already. Hope you will consider this first before we move on.

Thanks,

And may the Lord bless your evening.
In Christ, Pat

Edited by Macs Son, 25 July 2014 - 10:54 PM.

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Reformed Baptist

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Friend, 

 

You are right this is not a matter of crucial importance. 

 

I thank you for all the evidence you have taken the time to spell out, tell me why AD33 isn't a possibility - it seems to fit with what I am saying :D.

 

It seems to me that the early church had a pretty good idea when Jesus died, but not when he was born, and therefore they worked back based upon his ministry beginning at 30 (incorrect assumption, it began when he was about 30 as we have already seen) and that his ministry lasted three years (again an assumption based upon the feasts mentioned in John's gospel) and hence set year 0 when it couldn't possibly be. 

 

In regards to the days we seem to be talking at cross purposes I think, I allowed that you probably wouldn't count either the first or the last day in your equation (and herein lies part of the problem, even within the gospel records there is evidence of the writers counting days differently depending upon their target audience - I have already demonstrated that). However my argument is based upon the biblical text that I feel makes plain that the high Sabbath was a double Sabbath on one day and that the Lord Jesus Christ rose on the third day - to my mind your way of getting to that seems somewhat contrived whilst the traditional way of doing it seems natural and has biblical support in the example of Eshter that I mentioned earlier.  Also i would note that the traditional view is based upon very early (2nd cent.) historical records including the Didache and writers like Ignatius, Barnabas, Clement of Alexandria etc 

 

However it has been an enjoyable discussion, held in a good spirit, so I thank you for that and I will await your response if you wish to make one :D 


Edited by Reformed Baptist, 26 July 2014 - 05:01 AM.

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#15
Jzyehoshua

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In addressing the atheist criticism of the Bible on this issue, I concluded that the supernatural darkness of Matthew 27:45 resulted in God miraculously speeding up time so Jesus would have to spend less time in the grave. If that did change the chronology, it would result in an extra day and night, bringing the chronology perfectly in line.

 

http://www.bereawiki...hew_12#Verse_40


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#16
Macs Son

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Friend, 
 
You are right this is not a matter of crucial importance. 
 
I thank you for all the evidence you have taken the time to spell out, tell me why AD33 isn't a possibility - it seems to fit with what I am saying :D.



Good Morning Reformed Baptist,
It would have been a double Sabbath. Passover an AD33 would have begun Saturday at sunset but the regular Sabbath would have started on Friday sunset and would have persisted through Saturday evening. The Jews would not have let the Sabbath be profaned by crucifixion's taking place on the Sabbath.

 

It seems to me that the early church had a pretty good idea when Jesus died, but not when he was born, and therefore they worked back based upon his ministry beginning at 30 (incorrect assumption, it began when he was about 30 as we have already seen) and that his ministry lasted three years (again an assumption based upon the feasts mentioned in John's gospel) and hence set year 0 when it couldn't possibly be.



There really is no year 0, the calendars go from 1 BC to AD 1 but I'm not completely sure that was what you were implying.
You are correct that we don't exactly know the exact year Jesus was born but we do have some circumstantial evidence. Everyone used to think Jesus had to have been born in 4 BC because Herod's death in the 19th century had been calculated by Emil Schürerto to 4 BC and that stood in scholarly circles for quite while. Since Herod is a necessary part of the Christmas story it naturally follows that Jesus' birth had to precede Herod's death. The only issue there is Emil miscalculated Herod death date. Josephus provides us with many clues that lead us to January 1 BC. I had posted some of this before so you can take a look at that (it's about 8 posts back) but suffice to say it harmonizes well that Jesus starting his ministry in the same year as John the Baptist if he was born in 3 BC. Remember Herod went after all those 2 or under so 3 BC is definitely a candidate and moving forward to John the Baptist's ministry starting in AD27 - it does make sense.


Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of ...]


In regards to the days we seem to be talking at cross purposes I think, I allowed that you probably wouldn't count either the first or the last day in your equation (and herein lies part of the problem, even within the gospel records there is evidence of the writers counting days differently depending upon their target audience - I have already demonstrated that). However my argument is based upon the biblical text that I feel makes plain that the high Sabbath was a double Sabbath on one day and that the Lord Jesus Christ rose on the third day - to my mind your way of getting to that seems somewhat contrived whilst the traditional way of doing it seems natural and has biblical support in the example of Eshter that I mentioned earlier.  Also i would note that the traditional view is based upon very early (2nd cent.) historical records including the Didache and writers like Ignatius, Barnabas, Clement of Alexandria etc

 

I am not aware that the postulate contradicts anything the early Church fathers state at all, with the possible exception of Jerome - who is pretty late. Perhaps you could post those quotes in case I missed something?

However it has been an enjoyable discussion, held in a good spirit, so I thank you for that and I will await your response if you wish to make one :D


Yes, I agree and thank you for your viewpoints.
May God bless you and your family, Pat
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#17
rstrats

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Reformed Baptist,

 

re: "... of course the solution to the sign of Jonah is found in Ester as I have already pointed out."

 

 

here is nothing in the Esther account that precludes at least parts of each one of three daytimes and at least a part of each one of three nighttimes.


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#18
Edwin

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Thank you Donibm for your question.

 

Here for what it is worth is my understanding.

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

A problem with time.

 

Mat 12:40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 
I believe that Jesus was crucified on Thursday, for the reasons given below.
 
Our Lord Jesus said that he would be in the grave for 3 days & 3 nights ie 72 hours, however, the Gospel accounts indicate a period of only 37 hours at most.
 
For 3 days and 3 nights, please read Matt Ch 12 v 40. The 37 hours or thereabouts is arrived at as follows. Read the four Resurrection accounts and you will find that our Lord rose from the dead at around dawn on the first day of the week i.e. 12 hours from the end of the Sabbath, then there are 24 hours during the Sabbath, and may be up to an hour on Friday. In that part of the world, and at that time of the year sunset, and sunrise were close to 6 pm and 6 am. Jesus was on the cross from 9 am to 3 pm. Now read John Ch 19 v 31. There was about 3 hours to take down his body, prepare it for burial, transport same to the tomb, replace the stone, and seal it. I hope this helps you to understand my reasoning.
 
 Allow me to suggest a possible solution.. First of all look at Exodus Ch 12 vs 1-20. and also Leviticus Ch 23 vs 4-8. Now what are the salient points. The Lamb is to be selected on the 10 th day, but not killed until the 14 th day, why 4 days?, answer later on. The Passover continues on into the Feast of unleavened bread which is a feast of 7 days duration, with a Sabbath at each end. Now what does this teach me about the week in which our Lord allowed himself to be killed. That there are 2 Sabbaths in this week, the Sabbaths are at the start, and finish ie the first, and last, the alpha, and omega. Speaking of the Lord God himself. What is leaven but a picture of sin, therefore no leaven indicates no sin, what is the duration of this feast, 7 days, what does 7 indicate, Divine perfection ie no sin.. So the lamb points forward to the time when the Lord God himself, who is sinless will lay down his life during a week which has 2 Sabbaths in it.
 
Now let us see if the Gospel accounts indicate a 2nd Sabbath that week. Look first at John Ch 19 v 31. "For that Sabbath was a special Sabbath" why special?, could this suggest an additional Sabbath that week, well now look at Matt Ch 28 v 1. Here is a problem as most English translations read Sabbath, but have a look at the Greek text, and you will find that it is a plural noun ie Sabbaths, as is made clear with,
 
Young's Literal Translation (YNG)
 
Mat 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,  |
 
Now if we assume that Friday was the other Sabbath, and move the crucifixion back to Thursday, then we have 3 nights, but only some 61 hours, and still not 72 hours, however if you use Divine time measurement, and not human time measurement, ie "There was evening,and there was morning one day" and I can find 3 evenings, and 3 mornings then I will have 3 days. There is Thursday evening, Friday evening, and Saturday evening, Friday morning, Saturday morning, and Sunday morning 3 days.
 
Now what about that 4 days I mentioned earlier, if our Lord was killed on Thursday, then what day is 4 days earlier?, Palm Sunday of course. The Triumphal Entry and what else was also happening on that same day, every family in the land was choosing the lamb to be killed, and now that Jesus had presented himself to the Leaders of the Nation they had four days in which to examine him to see if there was any blemish, or spot, and when they could find none, kill him.
 
May the Lord bless you all ,and keep you safe.
 
Edwin.

 

 


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#19
ebaltrace

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I see that some of you are busy trying to figure out what day of the week Jesus was crucified and how to count 3 days and 3 nights.

The solution to this enigma has been debated for 2000 years.

 

Before you spend too much time on the "solution" answer one question for yourself.

Can you harmonize the timeline of passover events by comparing the synoptic gospels to the gospel according to John?


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#20
kwikphilly

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Blessings rstrats

 

re: "... of course the solution to the sign of Jonah is found in Ester as I have already pointed out."                                          posted by rstrats

Okay,what letter is missing......the  "a' in Easter or the "h" in Esther ?                   With love in Christ,Kwik


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