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What did Christ sacrifice if he is with God in Heaven?

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he sacrifice everything,love and life which makes us whole

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he sacrifice everything,love and life which makes us whole

Is He less than when He came to earth?  if not He did not sacrifice anything, if so, He is not perfect.

Edited by jerryR34
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Jesus was the Passover lamb.  He ended the need for sacrifices for sins.  I can see what you mean about what did he have to give up.  God the Son was that before he became a human and was that afterward.  I'm not sure about the Holy Spirit, but God the Father I can tell you had to give up the aroma he enjoyed from sacrifices.  He even accepted a human sacrifice one time in Judges 11:29-40. 

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he sacrifice everything,love and life which makes us whole

Is He less than when He came to earth?  if not He did not sacrifice anything, if so, He is not perfect.

jerry check out what it says in the first chapter of the gospel of John(not the letters)

It says... In the beginning was The Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This tells us Jesus is the same Jesus before creation, during creation, and when The Word/Jesus became flesh and dwelt amoung us.

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he sacrifice everything,love and life which makes us whole

Is He less than when He came to earth? if not He did not sacrifice anything, if so, He is not perfect.
jerry check out what it says in the first chapter of the gospel of John(not the letters)

It says... In the beginning was The Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This tells us Jesus is the same Jesus before creation, during creation, and when The Word/Jesus became flesh and dwelt amoung us.

If He's the same then, logically, he gave up nothing. Where then is the sacrifice?

Edited by jerryR34
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Greetings Jerry, first off Jesus was already in heaven, a place where the streets are gold. Riches so abundant we can hardly fathom. He gave up that to come here. Next, He was whipped and mocked and his face spit on, and his beard ripped off. Then he was crucified. Ever hear the term sacrificial lamb... or lamb of God? This is Jesus. The bible says bloodshed must occur for the attonment of sin, Jesus shed His blood. The bible says accursed of God is any man who is hung on a tree... Jesus was hung on a tree with nails. Jesus bore the wrath of God so that man could have a restored relationship with God. Adam in genisis messed that relationship up. Jesus is also called in the bible the second adam. Everything that happened to Jesus was payment for all of man kinds sin, past present and future.Jesus Christ, was the sacrifice. He dies for our sins.

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I'm not really sure I see Jesus' sacrifice as comparable to the suffering mankind would (and does) endure without salvation.  In my understanding, damnation is separation from God.  This is what Jesus endured on the cross: taking on God's wrath and being separated from him.  But this hardly seems a comparable punishment to the collective damnation of every human being, given two things.

 

- First, Jesus' suffering was temporary, as others have pointed out.  Yes, he might have been separated from God and yes, he endured all of God's wrath, but at this point in time Jesus no longer suffers, correct?  Jesus' sacrifice was very short, especially if you compare it to the eternal damnation nonbelievers purportedly suffer.  This makes even less sense to me if you consider that God works outside of time.  If Jesus is truly God, how could any finite amount of time have been of any significance?  I don't see how it matters how horrible the experience would have been for Jesus if the time frame for his punishment was finite, and God operates outside of time.

- Second, Jesus' sacrifice apparently didn't "cover" everybody.  If there are still souls condemned by God to Hell, how can Jesus' sacrifice be seen as sufficient?  Was it only sufficient for the elect?  How can one assert that Jesus died for the entire world (1 John 2:2), yet not every soul is promised salvation?  To the Calvinist/supporter of predestination, some are even promised damnation regardless of Jesus' sacrifice.

If Jesus took on just one persons sins, you may have something, but He took upon Himself all the sins of every human being ... and being in sin is separation from God. Compound how one can feel lost when thinking of just their life and compound it billions of times. You can then begin to get a picture.

His sacrifice does cover everyone, even those who reject His sacrifice. Nobody can blame Jesus for when someone rejects His free gift. We will all stand accountable for our own decisions.

You nailed it! Jesus' blood paid the sin penalty for all. Those who reject His "pardon" spend eternity in hell for their sin of "unbelief."

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Blessings Jerry...

    I did respond very early on this thread but I just wanted to add that it seems you don't realize that we are talking about the Creator of the Universe,Almighty God........the Great I Am that Rules Heaven ,Earth,everything & His Perfect dwelling place is Heaven...................Jerry,Heaven is something I do not think we could even imagine....the Angels cry out "Holy,Holy,Holy!".......He is worshipped 24/7,,,,,but there ,time & space is not bound....so everything is constant!He has named every star in the universe,He sits upon his Throne in Majesty................never hungered,never thirsted,never tired,never knew pain, suffering,discomfort or even the restraints of gravity!He does not even need the sun for light,everyone in Heaven basks in His Glory.........................Perfection!!!!!

   Jerry,He left His Majesty to be reduced to servitude.............what did He sacrifice?He sacrificed what He did not have to sacrifice simply because He loves us..........Isn't that enough?    God Bless you                                                                             With love-in Christ,Kwik

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Is the fact He lowered himself for a brief moment in His eternal existence to face the challenges we face on a daily basis worthy of being called a sacrifice? We face these daily, and if we succumb to the fact we are not pertect, and question it, we potentially face eternal punishment for a finite existence...Did Jesus really sacrifice anything?  I take umberage at being called a nonbeliever here...

 

The post does not seek an answer.  By its tone it suggests an attack upon its own limited scope - proving to the reader that the question itself is invalid and illiterate.

 

This is what is called a straw man argument.

 

It erects a false argument and then tears it down.  Actually the army of God is on another hill entirely.  

The post totally misses the target - and that is my point.

 

Nice try, but no cigar.

 

The post is humanistic.  Read it again.  It purports to argue against religion by using the self as its major example.  'We', 'we', 'we' appears throughout the post.

 

But the issue, dear reader, isn't WE.  It's God.   

 

Read the following carefully....

 

Jesus shed His blood and died upon the cross to pay the penalty for our sins in the eyes of God.

 

It is God that holds mankind guilty.  Not men.

It is God that demands justice.  Not man.

It is God that has said 'the soul that sins shall surely die.'  Not man.

 

Since Genesis 3, man has been unsuccessfully trying to hide his own naked guilt before God.  He's failed miserably because the standard is God's standard not human.

 

The 10 commandments is a divine law, not something passed by congress.   If congress had passed the law it would have probably been ten thousand pages long, with lots of loop holes for the rich and powerful.  There are no loop holes in the ten commandments.  ALL are guilty.  ALL are sinful.   ALL are destined for the eternal flame.

 

Eternal existence notwithstanding, Jesus laid down His earthly life.  That's the same life we all enjoy at this moment in time.   Jesus did it and He did it in excruciating pain and public humiliation.  Jesus shed His blood.   

 

The blood is for God.   The cross is for man. 

 

Jesus said we should take up our cross and follow Him.   Jesus shed His blood for us upon the cross to satisfy the demand of God for judgment upon sin.

 

In case the reader missed something along the way, BLOOD is earthly, physical, and is the life of the creature from which it issues.   Jesus gave His blood - His life in payment for sin.

 

God hates sinners.

 

Make no mistake here.   It isn't some abstract behavior that's destined for the fires of Hell.   It's sinners.   Every word and every line in The Word of God says so.

 

And Jesus died for sinners......not their abstract mistakes and jokes and naughtiness.

 

The blood pays all......IF its applied......IF its accepted by the human......IF its believed.

 

Otherwise you burn, sinner.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

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God hates sinners.

 

God hates no one.  God hates sin. I have no fear of burning.

Edited by jerryR34
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Hi Jerry,

 

God Himself left His throne in Heaven, became a man to not only walk among us but to suffer and die the most agonizing death you can even imagine. 

 

You said that He didn't know us personally,  Well yes He did.  Even before the foundations of this world we spoken into existence He knew all about us, the very hairs on our  head are numbered, every star in existence has a name, to me that is a very personal God.  He does not hate sinners, He loves us but hates the sin and again that is why Jesus died, so that our sins could be covered under the blood that He shed at Calvary.

 

He offers you salvation for accepting Jesus death on the cross and the crosses finished work for you.  Confess your sins to God ask for forgiveness and accept that finished work and ask Jesus into your heart.  When you do that and you realize this was all done for you.  As someone once said, "All the muddy waters of your life will clear up when you give yourself to Christ.  The choice is yours.

 

Were glad your here.  Please keep seeking this wonderful Savior, I promise He will be there waiting.

 

Because He Lives!! Rustyangel 

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Is the fact He lowered himself for a brief moment in His eternal existence to face the challenges we face on a daily basis worthy of being called a sacrifice? We face these daily, and if we succumb to the fact we are not pertect, and question it, we potentially face eternal punishment for a finite existence...Did Jesus really sacrifice anything?  I take umberage at being called a nonbeliever here...

 

I think it is that question that causes so many to enter into Christian Universalism, also called, Universal Reconcilliation.

Wherein it is believed, with the support of scripture, that when Jesus said he took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross that the whole world's people were saved eternally from their sin and Hell. Otherwise, he was a failure for his sacrifice and he lied about why he became the propitiation for our sins.

 

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

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God hates sinners.

 

 

Please refer me to the Bible scripture that says exactly that.

Thank you.

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Here's a passage I think sheds light on Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus had the glory and power of Heaven and the universe itself at His control, but risked His power, His privilege, and His authority in an attempt to save the human race. He took the form of a servant, bearing humiliation and risking everything, to try and save others.


Philippians 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

It may also be contrasted with the following:

 

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

Isaiah 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
 16 ¶ And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
 17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
 18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

 19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
 20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

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Heb 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 
 
Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 
 
You seem to be unaware that Jesus was crucified through the "eternal Spirit". It was not a one time deal as you are thinking, and now everything is OK. The reason Jesus does not need to offer himself for our sins every year as they did in the Old Testament is because his sacrifice for mans sins was eternal. There will never be a time throughout all eternity when the blood of Jesus Christ which he sprinkled on God's mercy will ever dry up, nor will his body be without the scars in his hands, feet, and side. For man to be able to live forever in God's presents required a sacrifice that would last for ever. Why would a God who created all things give so much up for his creation. Because he loved man so much he would die to save him from death, even if it meant to confine himself with a body scared for eternity.
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Hebrews 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

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Its quite simple if im honest. Jesus was sent for two reasons. To teach and to sacrifice.

He taught the ways which would help us get to heaven. He taught us humbleness, love, mercy, compassion. He taught us grace. Through Jesus we no longer live by Law, but by grace. He taught how to preach the Good News and taught of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

He sacrificed not just his life, but he copped a brutal, punishing, bloody, merciless beating for us. He was whipped, tortured, mocked, left half dead, and ultimately nailed to the Cross. Because of US and our sinful ways. He saved us from eternity in Hell - if we do what he asks of us as followers.

So to answer your question, yes, he certainly did sacrifice for us. The greatest sacrifice of mankind.

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For man to have eternal life, it required an eternal sacrifice. Jesus Christ's blood that he himself brought before the Father within the veil of Heaven in which he sprinkled upon the mercy seat of God will never dry up, and it always speak better things than that of abel. This man "Jesus Christ" after he had made one sacrifice for sins FOREVER sat down on the right hand of God. (Heb 10:12) Jesus was crucified through the eternal Spirit. So, even though he was crucified once, that sacrifice is eternal. Jesus will always have the nail prints in his hands, feet, and side as a reminder of his love toward us for ever!!!

 

Isa 49:15  "Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you. 
Isa 49:16  Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.
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For man to have eternal life, it required an eternal sacrifice. Jesus Christ's blood that he himself brought before the Father within the veil of Heaven in which he sprinkled upon the mercy seat of God will never dry up, and it always speak better things than that of abel. This man "Jesus Christ" after he had made one sacrifice for sins FOREVER sat down on the right hand of God. (Heb 10:12) Jesus was crucified through the eternal Spirit. So, even though he was crucified once, that sacrifice is eternal. Jesus will always have the nail prints in his hands, feet, and side as a reminder of his love toward us for ever!!!

 

Isa 49:15  "Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you. 
Isa 49:16  Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.

 

Where does it say that in the bible? Not is the scripture you quoted, so where please?

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For man to have eternal life, it required an eternal sacrifice. Jesus Christ's blood that he himself brought before the Father within the veil of Heaven in which he sprinkled upon the mercy seat of God will never dry up, and it always speak better things than that of abel. This man "Jesus Christ" after he had made one sacrifice for sins FOREVER sat down on the right hand of God. (Heb 10:12) Jesus was crucified through the eternal Spirit. So, even though he was crucified once, that sacrifice is eternal. Jesus will always have the nail prints in his hands, feet, and side as a reminder of his love toward us for ever!!!

 

Isa 49:15  "Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you. 
Isa 49:16  Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.

 

Where does it say that in the bible? Not is the scripture you quoted, so where please?

 

Heb 9:11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 
Heb 9:12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 
 
Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
 
Heb 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
 
Heb 9:19  For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 
Heb 9:20  Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 
Heb 9:21  Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 
Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 
Heb 9:23  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 
Heb 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 
 

Is there anything else you want?

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The part I don't get is...

If you are an "unbeliever"...why would you "take umbrage" at being called one?

 

Or do you have a problem with being an "unbeliever"?  Cuz I could understand if that were the case. 

You do know that God is listening, or don't you?  He is only waiting for you to talk to Him.

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Surely, if you have questions, you ought to be able to ask them? 

I don't think it is wrong to question our faith...for me, at least, my experience has been that from great questions has come even greater faith.

Faith that cannot be tested, cannot be trusted...

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For man to have eternal life, it required an eternal sacrifice. Jesus Christ's blood that he himself brought before the Father within the veil of Heaven in which he sprinkled upon the mercy seat of God will never dry up, and it always speak better things than that of abel. This man "Jesus Christ" after he had made one sacrifice for sins FOREVER sat down on the right hand of God. (Heb 10:12) Jesus was crucified through the eternal Spirit. So, even though he was crucified once, that sacrifice is eternal. Jesus will always have the nail prints in his hands, feet, and side as a reminder of his love toward us for ever!!!

Isa 49:15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.

Isa 49:16 Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.

The Christ is the one and only Eternal God who is Holy Spirit and when the Holy Spirit clothed himself with the garments of his servants as the Emmanuel, then his own blood became the eternal atonement for sins, once and for all. The word perpetual sin offering that covers sins.

So who bleed on the cross at Calvary?

The Eternal Holy Spirit bleed for all of his creation.

Acts 20:28

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Holy Spirit that wore the cloth as the man Jesus of Nazareth bleed for all of humanity.

The Holy Spirit took on the form of a man and that is why Jesus said unless I go, then He who is the Holy Spirit that was clothed as the man Jesus of Nazareth could not come. It necessitated Christ's absence as far as his post resurrection form was concerned, in order for that same Holy Spirit to come on Pentecost and not be restrained to one being in the time and space continuum, but be omnipresent in the hearts of all believers.

Edited by Defending the Name
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Again, thanks for all the responses. I've tried a few of the above responses on my atheist friends, but usually get the same kind of response... "So, God sacrificed Himself to Himself because he created us imperfect and is punishing Himself because we are imperfect...but he didn't really sacrifice anything because His Son (Himself) is still with Him..." I guess you need to believe in the first place to make the story plausible. Again, I appreciate all of your efforts,

Your problem is that you are not understanding what the word "God/god" means.

Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead..... Jesus and the Father are two separate beings. We have to have access to both to have access to either so we consider them as one God. Holy Spirit is the third in the trio, and without any one of the three you can't have access to any of them so they are a trinity that is our God.

No offense meant whatsoever, but my atheist friends would laugh me out of the conversation with that answer. How can a father and son both exist eternally, not to mention the holy spirit? If they are all all omnipotent and omnipresent why must you speak to any particular one? Seems we are making God in our image.

Because Jesus wasn't the son until he was born into human flesh. He and the Father existed together until that time...... Jesus gave up being in the form of god when he was born. He is man, but not just man for unlike us his spirit existed before he was born. And because he was sinless he had direct moment by moment access directly with the Father. We can only do that through the Holy Spirit today while still in these fleshly bodies. When Jesus died he died physically just like you and I would..... and like you and I his spirit went elsewhere. The Bible says he preached to the fallen angels during the time he was in the grave so he went to the place where the ultimate evil is locked up... why.... because he took on the whole sin weight of the world.

The Father raised him from the dead and put him in charge of everything.... still the interface for us to the other two is the Holy Spirit.

I can't tell you why, it's just the way it is. I also can't explain how the relationship with the Godhead happens, and I don't think anyone can. It's something that you have to experience. If you've never had one, you couldn't possibly understand and if you have you don't have to ask. it's beyond me to put it into words.

Jesus was always the Son from the moment he entered his own creation as the Angel of Yahweh's presence.

Daniel 7:13

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

The clouds of heaven represent the angelic hosts of heaven that he dwells with. Hebrews versus below declares the Son of Man to be the leading angel, as he is designated Devine authority amongst the hosts of heaven,who were told to worship him. These versus are clearly pre-incarnation versus before the Christ was incarnated into the world as Jesus of Nazareth. It is clear that this Holy Angel stands out amongst the created angelic hosts because he is worshipped and he is also designated to have complete authority and is called the Almighty God himself. This Almighty Angel is clothed with the garments of the angelic hosts of heaven that he created.

Hebrews 1:5-8

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This Holy Angel stood out amongst his created hosts of heaven and is designated the name Morning Star and in the Isaiah versus below it declares that Lucifer is created by the Morning Star, which further emphasises that this Angel is God the Holy Spirit taking on the form of an angel to be amongst his white cloud (angelic hosts).

Isaiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

So the Son of Man was designated to the Christ before be even entered the earthly realm. Jesus in John's verse below clearly indicates that he came and originated from above and that he is the very Holy Angel who entered Abraham's tent, then dined with him and made an oath by himself because there was no one besides him to make the oath, for he is the ultimate authority and supreme commander of all the hosts of heaven (Michael the morning star).

John 8:23

23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Edited by Defending the Name
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Hi Jerry,

 

I don`t know if any one has answered this but here are my thoughts, - It is wonderful that you would endure torture & even die for your girls. However would you be tortured & die for your enemies? Would you endure it if you could call on 12 legions of angels?

 

I think that is where the `rubber hits the road` as it were. We would suffer for our loved ones but not that person killing & torturing our loved ones.

 

Jesus did.

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