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Revelation 11

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#1
ENOCH2010

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What do we see in this chapter ? 

 

Let's all discuss this chapter it has some jewels buried within.


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#2
Atwood

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Well Enoch, I suppose that you find yourself there by namesake anyway. It is (as you know) the Two Witnesses Chapter.

Here 'tis:

11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and one said, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 And the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given to the nations: and the holy city shall they tread under foot 42 months.

That's half of Dan's 70th week, 3 1/2 years, with 360 day years

3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth.

Again, that's half of Dan's 70th week


4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands, standing before the Lord of the earth.
5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man shall desire to hurt them, in this manner must he be killed. 6 These have the power to shut the heaven, that it rain not during the days of their prophecy:

[like Elijah]

and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to smite the earth with every plague,

[like Moses]

as often as they shall desire. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that cometh up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

[Jerusalem]

9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do men look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And they that dwell on the earth rejoice over them, and make merry; and they shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwell on the earth. 11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

[a rapture]


13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were killed in the earthquake 7000 persons: and the rest were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14   The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.

15   And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said,
The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16   And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying,
We give thee thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast; because thou hast taken thy great power, and didst reign.
18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.

19   And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The Ark of the Covenant is in Heaven. I take this to mean that the Ark was taken up, probably at the time of the Babylonian destruction of the temple, likely along with the departure of the Shekinah Glory, as Ezekiel records. I take the Ark to be symbolic of the throne of God in Heaven, not to be symbolic of another Ark in a Heavenly Temple.
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#3
bopeep1909

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I have already put my 2 cents in on debating the Two Witnesses.


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#4
ENOCH2010

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The 2 witnesses wasn't what I had in mind with this discussion. I was wanting to talk about the return of the Lord in this chapter.


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#5
Enoch2021

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The Ark of the Covenant is in Heaven. I take this to mean that the Ark was taken up, probably at the time of the Babylonian destruction of the temple, likely along with the departure of the Shekinah Glory, as Ezekiel records. I take the Ark to be symbolic of the throne of God in Heaven, not to be symbolic of another Ark in a Heavenly Temple.

 

 

The "Real" Ark never left Heaven.  Moses built a Replica.


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#6
Marilyn C

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Enoch 2010 & Atwood,

 

Just a little on the side regarding the 2 witnesses (though of course there is much more in Rev.11).

 

To be a witness one must have witnessed something. Thus these 2 men have witnessed things. We know the Bible is focussed on Christ so let`s see what they have seen regarding Christ & His purposes.

 

 

Mount transfiguration - `behold 2 men talked with Him (Christ), who were Moses & Elijah,...`  (Luke 9: 30)

 

The Tomb - `behold, 2 men stood by them in shining garments.`  (Luke 24: 4)

 

The Ascension - `while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold 2 men stood by them in white apparel,..` (Acts 1: 10)

 

 

I dare say that these 2 men, Moses & Elijah can definitely speak of what they have witnessed concerning Israel`s Messiah, first hand.


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#7
Atwood

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The Ark of the Covenant is in Heaven. I take this to mean that the Ark was taken up, probably at the time of the Babylonian destruction of the temple, likely along with the departure of the Shekinah Glory, as Ezekiel records. I take the Ark to be symbolic of the throne of God in Heaven, not to be symbolic of another Ark in a Heavenly Temple.

The response to my statement was given:

"The "Real" Ark never left Heaven.; Moses built a Replica."

I think that proof is in order here instead of bare assertion (tis and taint).

I think that your POV is indeed possible, but I don't think it is right.. I think that the "real" is the throne of God and the ark on earth was a replica of that. There are real cherubim at God's throne. The lid of the Ark has graven cherubim on it.
Moreover, the ark on earth had 2 tablets of stone, Aaron's rod that budded, a container with manna in it, and the written law beside it. It seems unlikely to me that the associated artifacts had counterparts in Heaven to copy.
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#8
Atwood

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Enoch says:

"The 2 witnesses wasn't what I had in mind with this discussion. I was wanting to talk about the return of the Lord in this chapter."

That surprises me, since when I hear Rev 11, I think 2 witnesses at once. I don't see a description of the Return of the Lord here -- that is in Rev 19, though the implications of the 7th Trumpet do move past the Return of the Lord. We don't read, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed the Lord's Returning on a White Horse and the armies of Heaven with Him."

Do you agree that the tooting of the 7th Trumpet is not the Return of the Lord, but begins a process which gets to that some time after the toot? "And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail."
It looks to me like the "lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail" are signs of the Coming of Christ, not the coming itself -- so much for the Post Trib argument that the 7th trumpet of Rev must be the last trumpet of the Church Age.
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#9
Marilyn C

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The Ark of the Lord.

 

`When you see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God...`  (Joshua 3: 3)

 

This is one of the most complete types of Christ in the Bible. The ark consisted of a gold-plated chest with 2 cherubim of carved olive wood overlaid with pure gold covering the mercy seat. their wings were turned towards the centre 7 their faces looked downward.

 

The model itself expressed the wisdom of the eternal mind, the materials used were symbolic of Christ in manifestation among men. The presentation of incense and blood demonstrated His perfect character as Mediator. The crown of gold on the ark represented the sovereign authority of Christ in His Lordship. The mercy seat before which the blood was sprinkled signifies sacrificial death by virtue of lovingkindness, while the contents of the ark symbolizes the sufficiency of the administration of Christ in His leadership.

 

(Referenced from C.J Rolls `The Indescribable Christ.` out of print)


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#10
Atwood

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It was posted
"
To be a witness one must have witnessed something. Thus these 2 men have witnessed things. We know the Bible is focussed on Christ so let`s see what they have seen regarding Christ; His purposes.

Mount transfiguration - `behold 2 men talked with Him (Christ), who were Moses & Elijah,... (Luke 9: 30)

The Tomb - `behold, 2 men stood by them in shining garments. (Luke 24: 4)

The Ascension - `while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold 2 men stood by them in white apparel,..` (Acts 1: 10)


I dare say that these 2 men, Moses and Elijah can definitely speak of what they have witnessed concerning Israel`s Messiah, first hand."

-------
Of course you can also add that the miracles look like Elijah and Moses. But Enoch also was a witness; he walked with God and was taken. Was Moses ever a witness of anything that happened in Israel (west of Jordan River)? He never even got there; he viewed it from a distance; even the Mt of Transfig was probably on east side of Jordan. I think that many persons have been exposed to God's truth and thus are witnesses. Anyone in Heaven would be a witness of the Glory of the Lord Jesus. Now if Moses is forbidden to enter the West side of Jordan (Law can't take you into the promised land idea; Jesus = Joshua can), then he would not be in Jerusalem as one of the two witnesses. No, I'm not certain but that the prohibition may expire for Moses some day.

But I like Enoch instead of Moses, also by the "appointed to man once to die" idea. However, the objection is that the entire Church-on-earth does not die at the Rapture (or do they momentarily die?) And some have apparently died twice, like Lazarus. So one may argue that "appointed to man once to die" is a generalization which can have exceptions. I won't be either dogmatic or catmatic on this one.
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#11
Marilyn C

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I believe the 7 seals give us the overview of the tribulation while the trumpets give us more details. The trumpets 1- 4 are in the first part of the trib.while trumpet 5, the demons let loose is the middle, 6 is the great army & the 7th heralds Christ`s return - great earthquake & Armageddon.

 

Looking at Rev. 11: 19 & Rev. 19: 11 they are similar.

 

Rev. 11: 19  `Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant  (Christ) was seen in His temple....`

Rev. 19: 11  `Then I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful & true.` (Christ)


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#12
Marilyn C

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Hi Atwood,

 

Some interesting thoughts there. The main point I would like to bring out is that the 2 men, the 2 witnesses need to have witnessed the death, resurrection & ascension of Jesus as a man. Israel did not accept Jesus and need to hear from these 2 witnesses the truth of who Jesus is (Son of God, Son of man) & why He had to die, as they thought He would just get rid of their enemies like Joshua did.


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#13
Cletus

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I cant prove this by scripture but I think the two witnesses are one enoch whom the bible says was translated which gives me a mental image of not exactly but similar to "beam me up scottie"
And second elijah. The only other refrence I can find where one is "taken"

My other theory is elijah and elisha because the latter asked for a double portion of his spirit.

again this is just a theory I am not promoting this as truth. Just interesting food for thought. We will find out who the two witnesses are soon enough.
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#14
ENOCH2010

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Rev. chapter 11 in an overview of the Lords return, start reading at vs.15 and see what is being described. I agree the Lord doesn't return until chapter 19 but chapter 11 is the highlights of that return.


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#15
Bible_Gazer

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What do we see in this chapter ? 
 
Let's all discuss this chapter it has some jewels buried within.


verse 1-13 seem to be in between the 6 and 7 trumpet time period if you want to read it that way.
So is chapter 10.

Will both of these be fulfilled during a short time between 6th and 7th trumpet ?

or is parts of this just an insert for some reason.

As far as Rev.11 goes.
It seems to be that something has a measure.
Some are left out.
Holy city trampled.
Two witnesses(olive tree, 2candlesticks, prophets) prophecy the future and they seem to have some power.
Yet the beast kills them.
People are happy.
Some would not let them be buried.
Spirit of life enter into them and are raised up on their feet.
Then they are caught up to heaven.
only Seven thousands men died.
Seem to be during the 42 months as mentioned.
As far as a resurrection, seem to it only mention two if you make it literal two people.

Then again the 7th trumpet mentions a resurrection.
But that seem to be as read its after the two wits done their job.
Then again time frame don't fit here because the Kingdoms does not belong to the Lord
until they are converted. v15

just some thoughts
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#16
Montana Marv

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Was responding to wrong chapter.

 

......

In Christ

Montana Marv


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#17
Montana Marv

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v. 12 And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed.  Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of Heaven.  The second woe is past, and the third woe is coming soon.  We need to see Rev 8:13b - Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels (5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets).  And yet we have not had the 7 Bowls of Wrath.  The third woe is embedded in the 7 Bowls.  Yet we see the 7th Bowl there is a severe earthquake mentioned, where this city is split into three parts.  And yet there is another woe to come (Armageddon).  So we can see that the two witnesses going up into heaven is not the Rapture of the Church.  Those on earth saw them ascending, we will be gone in the blink of an eye in the Rapture.  This is not the First Resurrection.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


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#18
Enoch2021

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The Ark of the Covenant is in Heaven. I take this to mean that the Ark was taken up, probably at the time of the Babylonian destruction of the temple, likely along with the departure of the Shekinah Glory, as Ezekiel records. I take the Ark to be symbolic of the throne of God in Heaven, not to be symbolic of another Ark in a Heavenly Temple.

The response to my statement was given:

"The "Real" Ark never left Heaven.; Moses built a Replica."

I think that proof is in order here instead of bare assertion (tis and taint).

I think that your POV is indeed possible, but I don't think it is right.. I think that the "real" is the throne of God and the ark on earth was a replica of that. There are real cherubim at God's throne. The lid of the Ark has graven cherubim on it.
Moreover, the ark on earth had 2 tablets of stone, Aaron's rod that budded, a container with manna in it, and the written law beside it. It seems unlikely to me that the associated artifacts had counterparts in Heaven to copy.

 

=====================================================================================

 

"The "Real" Ark never left Heaven.; Moses built a Replica."

 

I think that proof is in order here instead of bare assertion (tis and taint).

 

I will as soon as you show me The Ark Descending from Heaven  :)

 

Moses received the Instructions for the Construction of the Ark from GOD in Exodus Chapter 25.

 

 

But I like Enoch instead of Moses, also by the "appointed to man once to die" idea. However, the objection is that the entire Church-on-earth does not die at the Rapture (or do they momentarily die?) And some have apparently died twice, like Lazarus. So one may argue that "appointed to man once to die" is a generalization which can have exceptions.

 

Jairus' Daughter in Mark Chapter 5 also Died...... and Resurrected.

 

The "appointed to man once to die" is a Direct Rebuttal to Re-incarnation.

 

It's not a "Generalization" and Exceptions to the WORD??  errr, I don't think so.  Please list The Passage and subsequent "Exceptions" for said Passage throughout  the Entire Book..... then will review for merit and efficacy of each.

 

It's Pretty clear from the Powers that each of the Witnesses have..... that it's Elijah and Moses.


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#19
douggg

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Rev. chapter 11 in an overview of the Lords return, start reading at vs.15 and see what is being described. I agree the Lord doesn't return until chapter 19 but chapter 11 is the highlights of that return.

verse 15 is a time, times, and half times away from Jesus's Return in Revelation 19.

 

The kingdoms of the world becoming the kingdoms of God and his Christ - begin with a process, which starts with the third woe.    The only woe left in Revelation is in chapter 12, when Satan is cast down and has a time, times, half times left.     Babylon is Fallen is Babylon, the principality of Satan overshadowing the earth.

 

Which puts the two witnesses testimony in the first half, their 1260 days - equating to Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days right before the war in Heaven (the second heaven) and Satan being cast down for the time, times, and half times.


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#20
Enoch2021

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I believe the 7 seals give us the overview of the tribulation while the trumpets give us more details. The trumpets 1- 4 are in the first part of the trib.while trumpet 5, the demons let loose is the middle, 6 is the great army & the 7th heralds Christ`s return - great earthquake & Armageddon.

 

Looking at Rev. 11: 19 & Rev. 19: 11 they are similar.

 

Rev. 11: 19  `Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant  (Christ) was seen in His temple....`

Rev. 19: 11  `Then I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful & true.` (Christ)

 

 

===============================================================================

 

 

I believe the 7 seals give us the overview of the tribulation while the trumpets give us more details.

 

An invaluable technique to use and protect yourself from Unbridled Speculation and "Every Wind Of Doctrine" is: instead of saying "I Believe" say.... "I believe based on Scripture", then go ahead and list the Scriptures that support your belief.  Be as Specific and Precise as possible since GOD'S WORD is Hyper-Precise.

 

There is no "tribulation" just "Great Tribulation" that Christ Speaks of (See Matt 24) Beginning with The Abomination of Desolation.

 

The Seven Seals:

 

1st Seal:  (White Horse) Went forth Conquering and to Conquer

2nd Seal: (Red Horse) Take Peace from the Earth and Men should kill one another.

3rd Seal:  (Black Horse) Famine

4th Seal:  (Pale Horse): And Power was given to them over The Fourth Part of The Earth with Death: pestilence, famine, sword, beasts of the Earth.

5th Seal:  The Martyrs under the Alter.  Promised to be avenged but to wait.

6th Seal:  Great Earthquake, Sun Black, Moon as Blood.  Heavens depart as a Scroll.  Mountain and Island moved from their Place.  Wrath of The Lamb!  Then Sealing of the 144,000, Tribulation Saints are robed in Heaven.

7th Seal:  Silence in Heaven 1/2 hour

 

 

The Seven Trumpets are often referred to as "The Judgements of the Thirds"...

 

1st Angel:  the third part of Trees were burnt up.

2nd Angel: the third part of the sea became as blood and the third part of sea creatures died and the third part of ships were destroyed.

3rd Angel:  the third part of rivers became bitter (Wormwood)

4th Angel:  the third part of the sun, the third part of the moon, the third part of stars

5th Angel: A Break with the Thirds :) Bottomless pit the beast and locusts

6th Angel:  a third part of men were killed

7th Angel:  A Break with the thirds  :)

 


So you said the Seals were an overview of "tribulation" (No mention of "tribulation" in Scripture, just "Great Tribulation") and the Trumpets Give more details? .....I don't think so.  The Seals and The Trumpets are Clearly and Completely Separate Judgements.

 

Where's the Vial/Bowls (That are "Filled up" with GOD'S Wrath) in "your" Scenario??

 

 

Looking at Rev. 11: 19 & Rev. 19: 11 they are similar.

 

Rev. 11: 19  `Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant  (Christ) was seen in His temple....`

Rev. 19: 11  `Then I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful & true.` (Christ)

 

Say Again??? You say Similar...the only "similarities" I see in these Passages is they both occur in the Book of Revelation.

 

There are alot of Idioms in Scripture for Jesus:  The Rock, The Lamb, The Lion of The Tribe of Judah, The Door, The First and The Last, The Alpha and Omega, The Good Shepard et al.  The Ark of the Covenant is NOT ONE OF THEM.

 

Doesn't Christ Rule from "The Mercy Seat" on TOP of the Ark on David's Throne in the Millennium ?? 


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