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the two witnesses?

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#1
elijanoch

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Ive always wondered why people believe Moses is one of the two witnesses? Can a man die twice? Moses would have to die be resurrected die again in revelation 11 than be resurrected a second time. The Bible tells us we will be like Christ with glorified bodies so how does Moses die twice? God bless

#2
ayin jade

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I dont believe moses is one, but I think they get that view from the transfiguration. Moses the law, elijah the prophets, both point to Christ. 



#3
elijanoch

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Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

#4
Marilyn C

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Hi elijanoch,

 

Good question. But remember Lazarus, he died, then the Jesus brought him back to life & then obviously he died as he is not around today. :grin: 

 

So why do people believe that Moses is one of the 2 witnesses? Well firstly it is because of the miracles that we read about in Rev. 11, for Moses, the plagues & for Elijah the power to shut up heaven.

 

However for me this is true but we must think `witnesses?` - people who hear & see something. It appears that Moses & Elijah hear about Christ`s death from Him at the Mount of transfiguration, & then they could have been the 2 men who saw Christ`s resurrection & ascension. ( Luke 9: 30 & 31.      24: 4.   Acts 1: 10) Then they obviously would be able to tell the people of Israel that Jesus whom was crucified is not only the Son of  man but the Son of God, for He arose from the dead.

 

Israel was looking for a deliverer to get rid of Rome. But they did not realise that Christ came as a human to release them from our sins. They were only looking for an earthly deliverer. Thus the 2 witnesses will be able to witness truthfully of what they have seen & heard.



#5
*Zion*

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I believe that God can use whoever, however, without breaking any of his own rules- even if He may seem to to us because of our limited reasoning and perception/perspective.



#6
inchrist

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Though there is no conclusive proof of who the two witnesses are I would like to put forward one possible concept on who the two witnesses just might be.

I do not believe they are Moses, Enoch, Elijah, symbolic church or Israel or any form of Institue or even some two new people who represent Moses and Enoch.

I will present my evidence based purely on the consistency of the Bible, the concept of The Lord is the same yesteday, today and tomorrow.

There are 7 Facts with wich we must agree with to try identify the 2 witnesses.

1. The 2 witnesses are symbolic or ar called the 2 Olive Trees Rev11:4 and Zec 4:3-11
2. They stand in the presence of God of the whole earth Rev11:4 and zec4:3-11
3. The 2 anointed ones
4. They prohpecy for a period of 42 months
5. any attempt to hurt them results in immidiate death Rev 11.5
6. They are eventually killed
7. after 3.5 days they are resurrected and the ascend to heaven infront of the world.

We have to rule out Enoch, Moses, Noah or any OT Saint simple because Jesus eliminated that thougt for us
John 3:13 and no man has ascended up to heaven

They can therefore not be standing in the presence of God as they are in their graves awaiting the ressurection.

Hebrews 9:27 it is appointed unto men to die once. Evidence therefore must dictate it can not be OT saints to be one of the 2 witnesses.

I put it to you the 2 witnesses are Gabriel and Michael.

Factual evidence to consider.

1. Two Archangels
2. Anointed ( angels are annointed to minister God's will)
3. They stand in God's presence on both sides of the mercy seat.... The ark of the covernant confirms this.
4. Two olive trees are associated to two Cherubims - 1 King 6:23
5. Angels do prophecies Gen 19, Judges 6, Judges 13, Daniel 3:28, Daniel 6:22, Acts 5:19, Acts 12:8 Rev 1:1
6. The city of Sodom, The almigt visited earth with 2 angels. God sent the two Angels to do a report on Sodom or witness for God. Here we have a commonality.
7. It is not hard to conceve that the two Arch angels would wear sackcloth

Can an Angel Die?
God did in human flesh....remeber God can turn Angels from spirit form to physical flesh form...so if God can die in flesh so could Angels

8. Two Archangles are ever mentioned in Scripture Michael and Gabriel
9. We know that Gabriel is only sent to deliever the most important messages.
10. We know angels can send pleagues

#7
Montana Marv

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Angels cannot be killed, they live in a different dimension.

 

Yet the two maybe be Enoch - Pre Flood and Elijah - Post Flood.  They are witnesses to their time.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#8
inchrist

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Angels cannot be killed, they live in a different dimension. Yet the two maybe be Enoch - Pre Flood and Elijah - Post Flood.  They are witnesses to their time. In ChristMontana Marv


So does God, but that didnt stop us humans from nailing Him to the cross.

#9
Matt36

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Angels cannot be killed, they live in a different dimension. Yet the two maybe be Enoch - Pre Flood and Elijah - Post Flood.  They are witnesses to their time. In ChristMontana Marv


So does God, but that didnt stop us humans from nailing Him to the cross.

 

Yes though with Jesus he "became flesh". So in doing so his body was made fully man even though he remained fully God. Only the man part or his flesh was killed off. But he DID rise again bro, and aint we good because of that amen! :)



#10
inchrist

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Angels cannot be killed, they live in a different dimension. Yet the two maybe be Enoch - Pre Flood and Elijah - Post Flood.  They are witnesses to their time. In ChristMontana Marv

So does God, but that didnt stop us humans from nailing Him to the cross.
Yes though with Jesus he "became flesh". So in doing so his body was made fully man even though he remained fully God. Only the man part or his flesh was killed off. But he DID rise again bro, and aint we good because of that amen! :)

Hi Matt36

yes we are in deed and such a gift....mindbending if you think about it.

Right back to the topic...Angels became flesh, well they cant do this on there own, its Gods will that can tansform an angel into flesh...Sodom is a great example of this

Its the same with the two witnesses, the angels are just resurrected just like Christ....I find it incredable how the theme of resurrection runs throug the bible.

#11
Enoch2021

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Angels cannot be killed, they live in a different dimension. Yet the two maybe be Enoch - Pre Flood and Elijah - Post Flood.  They are witnesses to their time. In ChristMontana Marv

So does God, but that didnt stop us humans from nailing Him to the cross.
Yes though with Jesus he "became flesh". So in doing so his body was made fully man even though he remained fully God. Only the man part or his flesh was killed off. But he DID rise again bro, and aint we good because of that amen! :)

Hi Matt36

yes we are in deed and such a gift....mindbending if you think about it.

Right back to the topic...Angels became flesh, well they cant do this on there own, its Gods will that can tansform an angel into flesh...Sodom is a great example of this

Its the same with the two witnesses, the angels are just resurrected just like Christ....I find it incredable how the theme of resurrection runs throug the bible.

 

 

 

====================================================================================

 

Please show us FROM SCRIPTURE where it not only say's but IMPLIES the Two Witnesses are Angels? 

 

Pretty hard to believe how many times and how often Angels are mentioned in Revelation that there is not even a whiff of Implication that these Two are Angels.  However, there is pretty clear evidence from the powers given to these Two that they are none other than Elijah and Moses.

 

Moreover, Show us FROM SCRIPTURE Where Angels can be Killed.....and then, Resurrected? 

 

The Theme that runs through the Entire Bible and dwarfs all others is REDEMPTION



#12
mevosper

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I put it to you the 2 witnesses are Gabriel and Michael.
 

 

Very insiteful and very worth considering and looking into. Thanks for this. I have my doubts about popular beliefs of the witnesses being OT saints. 

 

4. Two olive trees are associated to two Cherubims - 1 King 6:23

 

Again, Revelation is pointing back to the Old Testament as a reference. Very Awesome. 

 

Good stuff, brother!


Edited by mevosper, 02 May 2014 - 04:05 PM.


#13
mevosper

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Angels cannot be killed, they live in a different dimension. Yet the two maybe be Enoch - Pre Flood and Elijah - Post Flood.  They are witnesses to their time. In ChristMontana Marv

So does God, but that didnt stop us humans from nailing Him to the cross.
Yes though with Jesus he "became flesh". So in doing so his body was made fully man even though he remained fully God. Only the man part or his flesh was killed off. But he DID rise again bro, and aint we good because of that amen! :)

Hi Matt36

yes we are in deed and such a gift....mindbending if you think about it.

Right back to the topic...Angels became flesh, well they cant do this on there own, its Gods will that can tansform an angel into flesh...Sodom is a great example of this

Its the same with the two witnesses, the angels are just resurrected just like Christ....I find it incredable how the theme of resurrection runs throug the bible.

 

 

 

====================================================================================

 

Please show us FROM SCRIPTURE where it not only say's but IMPLIES the Two Witnesses are Angels? 

 

Pretty hard to believe how many times and how often Angels are mentioned in Revelation that there is not even a whiff of Implication that these Two are Angels.  However, there is pretty clear evidence from the powers given to these Two that they are none other than Elijah and Moses.

 

Moreover, Show us FROM SCRIPTURE Where Angels can be Killed.....and then, Resurrected? 

 

The Theme that runs through the Entire Bible and dwarfs all others is REDEMPTION

 

 

Rev 11:4 KJV
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
 
1Ki 6:23-27 KJV
23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.
26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
 

 

 

Now SHHH, your interrupting .  :ph34r:



#14
Enoch2021

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Angels cannot be killed, they live in a different dimension. Yet the two maybe be Enoch - Pre Flood and Elijah - Post Flood.  They are witnesses to their time. In ChristMontana Marv

So does God, but that didnt stop us humans from nailing Him to the cross.
Yes though with Jesus he "became flesh". So in doing so his body was made fully man even though he remained fully God. Only the man part or his flesh was killed off. But he DID rise again bro, and aint we good because of that amen! :)

Hi Matt36

yes we are in deed and such a gift....mindbending if you think about it.

Right back to the topic...Angels became flesh, well they cant do this on there own, its Gods will that can tansform an angel into flesh...Sodom is a great example of this

Its the same with the two witnesses, the angels are just resurrected just like Christ....I find it incredable how the theme of resurrection runs throug the bible.

 

 

 

====================================================================================

 

Please show us FROM SCRIPTURE where it not only say's but IMPLIES the Two Witnesses are Angels? 

 

Pretty hard to believe how many times and how often Angels are mentioned in Revelation that there is not even a whiff of Implication that these Two are Angels.  However, there is pretty clear evidence from the powers given to these Two that they are none other than Elijah and Moses.

 

Moreover, Show us FROM SCRIPTURE Where Angels can be Killed.....and then, Resurrected? 

 

The Theme that runs through the Entire Bible and dwarfs all others is REDEMPTION

 

 

Rev 11:4 KJV
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
 
1Ki 6:23-27 KJV
23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.
26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
 

 

 

Now SHHH, your interrupting .  :ph34r:

 

 

=============================================================================================

 

What is this?

 

The 1st Kings Reference is Solomon's Temple.  These are "Carvings" Statuesque....and they're on the Earth.

 

Revelation says.....  "two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing". 

 

Can you show me the "two Candlesticks" in this 1st Kings Passage?

 

 

Moreover,

 

1 Kings also says these are Two Cheribum of Olive Tree.

 

Rev 11 says 2 Olive Trees.

 

Your Idioms are Non-Sequitur



#15
Matt36

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Angels cannot be killed, they live in a different dimension. Yet the two maybe be Enoch - Pre Flood and Elijah - Post Flood.  They are witnesses to their time. In ChristMontana Marv

So does God, but that didnt stop us humans from nailing Him to the cross.
Yes though with Jesus he "became flesh". So in doing so his body was made fully man even though he remained fully God. Only the man part or his flesh was killed off. But he DID rise again bro, and aint we good because of that amen! :)

Hi Matt36

yes we are in deed and such a gift....mindbending if you think about it.

Right back to the topic...Angels became flesh, well they cant do this on there own, its Gods will that can tansform an angel into flesh...Sodom is a great example of this

Its the same with the two witnesses, the angels are just resurrected just like Christ....I find it incredable how the theme of resurrection runs throug the bible.

 

 

 

====================================================================================

 

Please show us FROM SCRIPTURE where it not only say's but IMPLIES the Two Witnesses are Angels? 

 

Pretty hard to believe how many times and how often Angels are mentioned in Revelation that there is not even a whiff of Implication that these Two are Angels.  However, there is pretty clear evidence from the powers given to these Two that they are none other than Elijah and Moses.

 

Moreover, Show us FROM SCRIPTURE Where Angels can be Killed.....and then, Resurrected? 

 

The Theme that runs through the Entire Bible and dwarfs all others is REDEMPTION

 

 

Rev 11:4 KJV
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
 
1Ki 6:23-27 KJV
23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.
26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
 

 

 

Now SHHH, your interrupting .  :ph34r:

 

Nice scriptures brother :)

 

I guess Angels CAN die then but i guess only the fleshy body of them

 

The Sons of God, considered fallen angels by many including myself did change their "estate" meaning became flesh on earth and yes they did die as the nephalim or giants of the old testament.

 

So i guess, and especially as you have backed it up with scripture, that the two witnesses are angels and could take on a fleshy body and die.

 

Great example of scripture interpreting scripture

 

Good work bro :)


Edited by Matt36, 02 May 2014 - 10:02 PM.


#16
Marilyn C

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Hi inchrist,

 

Just popping in here on your conversation with Matt36. You said - `It`s the same with the two witnesses, the angels are just resurrected just like Jesus.`

 

Thought I`d add that no one has been resurrected like Jesus. People have been resurrected in the sense that their spirits are with Christ or in the General Assembly, but Jesus is the ONLY one who has a glorified body, which we know is in the 3rd heaven at the right hand of the Father. He is the ONLY one because He is LIFE & has overcome death.



#17
bopeep1909

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This is what I said on "The Two Witnesses of Revelation" thread.

My guess is Elijah/Enoch because they did not experience death.If God took them to heaven without experiencing death it seems like it would have been for a purpose.



#18
Marilyn C

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Hi bopeep1909,

 

Haven`t had a chat with you yet. Seen you different threads & wondered wow, so many posts, you must have been on years ago.

 

Well now to the topic - the 2 witnesses. You said regarding Enoch (& Elijah) that `it seems like it would have been for a purpose. Many people (& myself) believe that Enoch being taken by God before the judgment of the flood,  is a representation of the Body of Christ being caught away before the judgments of Dan. 70th week, God`s wrath.

 

I believe it is Moses & Elijah as I have previously written, re: the 2 men hearing from Christ about His upcoming death, then seeing His resurrection & ascension. They also are the anointed ones given power (as they had before on earth). They can speak to Israel of their witness of their (Israel`s) Messiah who is Jesus. This is what Israel needs to hear so that they can repent.



#19
inchrist

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Hi inchrist, Just popping in here on your conversation with Matt36. You said - `It`s the same with the two witnesses, the angels are just resurrected just like Jesus.` Thought I`d add that no one has been resurrected like Jesus. People have been resurrected in the sense that their spirits are with Christ or in the General Assembly, but Jesus is the ONLY one who has a glorified body, which we know is in the 3rd heaven at the right hand of the Father. He is the ONLY one because He is LIFE & has overcome death.


but yet we see the 2 witnesses being resurrected....

#20
Marilyn C

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Yes, inchrist,

 

but they(the 2 witnesses) are resurrected in earthly bodies & not a glorified body as Christ. However I do take your point as they were brought back to life, resurrected & then went up into heaven in the cloud, as Christ did. I was just making a distinction in regards to Christ`s glorified body, which no one has until we (the Body of Christ) are in glory. And the 2 witnesses, well I believe they will be part of the spirits of just, righteous men who are waiting in the General assembly. (Heb. 12: 23)

 

Good to chat with you.






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