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the two witnesses?

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The mention of sackcloth shows that the two witnesses are humble. The two witnesses are people you have never heard of. They will come out of nowhere. They are "unimportant" (spiritually). They are the personable representation of the wrath and last-minute call to repentance of Elohim on Earth.

 

I think that when a man dies then his soul is judged. It is fixed in it's judgement. The chuch loves to speak of Moses and Elijah, but unless it knows YEHOVA it knows neither.

 

In eternity, the soul has become that which it has truly desired to be, given free will. Thus, it becomes fixed by virtue of Divine balance, in it's rightful place, either Heaven or Hell.

Edited by Mango_Morning
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The mention of sackcloth shows that the two witnesses are humble. The two witnesses are people you have never heard of. They will come out of nowhere. They are "unimportant" (spiritually). They are the personable representation of the wrath and last-minute call to repentance of Elohim on Earth.

 

I think that when a man dies then his soul is judged. It is fixed in it's judgement. The chuch loves to speak of Moses and Elijah, but unless it knows YEHOVA it knows neither.

 

In eternity, the soul has become that which it has truly desired to be, given free will. Thus, it becomes fixed by virtue of Divine balance, in it's rightful place, either Heaven or Hell.

I know from God that you have a good understanding.

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the law and the prophets. 2 witnesses

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Psa 119:126 KJV - It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.
 

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I've always wondered why people believe Moses is one of the two witnesses? ...revelation 11 ...? God bless

 

The two witnesses in Rev 11 are symbols, not real beings or people, though they might as well have been that by the way they worked and were treated. Someone already mentioned the two olive trees. Zechariah 4:2-6.

 

The means by which God has a witness in the earth, the old and new testaments ? or the "word of the Lord" "not by might or power, but by My Spirit"  "thy word is a lamp unto my feet" ?

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I've always wondered why people believe Moses is one of the two witnesses? ...revelation 11 ...? God bless

 

The two witnesses in Rev 11 are symbols, not real beings or people, though they might as well have been that by the way they worked and were treated. Someone already mentioned the two olive trees. Zechariah 4:2-6.

 

The means by which God has a witness in the earth, the old and new testaments ? or the "word of the Lord" "not by might or power, but by My Spirit"  "thy word is a lamp unto my feet" ?

 

There is no reason to believe they are symbols.  There is every reason to believe they are real people.  The Bible doesn't give us their identity, but that isn't important.  That they are killed and resurrected indicates that they are real people.   Calling them symbols really makes no sense.

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Resurrected olive trees and candle sticks?

 

Compare verse 5 and 6 with chapter 22:18 and 19. These show that it is God's wrath which brings the plagues according to His word, not the wrath of angels or elected men.

 

Zechariah chapters 4 (and 5) confirms a short comment made earlier in this thread about the law and the prophets. These witnesses have those two characteristics - they have the spirit of prophecy Rev 11:3, Rev 19:10, and the law of God Rev 22:14, as in Zech Ch 5.

 

The reference in Rev to Zechariah is not a coincidence.

 

If we go by what the Bible infers, then we don't have to look for a pair of men, and argue what or who they might be.

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Resurrected olive trees and candle sticks?

 

Compare verse 5 and 6 with chapter 22:18 and 19. These show that it is God's wrath which brings the plagues according to His word, not the wrath of angels or elected men.

 

Zechariah chapters 4 (and 5) confirms a short comment made earlier in this thread about the law and the prophets. These witnesses have those two characteristics - they have the spirit of prophecy Rev 11:3, Rev 19:10, and the law of God Rev 22:14, as in Zech Ch 5.

 

The reference in Rev to Zechariah is not a coincidence.

 

If we go by what the Bible infers, then we don't have to look for a pair of men, and argue what or who they might be.

You have it backwards.  The olive trees and candlesticks are symbolic of the two human witnesses, not the other way around.  Furthermore, God can bring His wrath through any means He chooses.  He is sovereign.  He works through these two men 

 

So, there is no reason to think the two witnesses are anything other than what God says they are, in the book of Revelation.  He says they are men.  I will believe God and disbelieve you.

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Now you say there is symbolism in there - the candlesticks are symbolic of real men, but not the other way around.

 

But now we have -

 

real fire breathing men in sackcloth, that are capable of destroying the entire earth over and over with plagues?

 

Are you sure the whole chapter is not symbolic?

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Now you say there is symbolism in there - the candlesticks are symbolic of real men, but not the other way around.

 

I never said there wasn't any symbolism.  I simply asserted that you have the symbolism  wrong.  You are saying the witnesses of Revelation are symbols.  God's word says otherwise.   It is the candlesticks and the olive trees of Zechariah that are the symbols.

 

But now we have -

 

real fire breathing men in sackcloth, that are capable of destroying the entire earth over and over with plagues?

 

We have men empowered by God to perform signs and wonders and preach the Gospel.  Is that so difficult to comprehend?

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Olive trees and light bearers...

(Candlestick is misleading)

Refers to the tabernacle, and the seven branched lamp-stand. It was fed by pure olive oil. Oil is a frequent idiom for the Holy Spirit.

These two, idiomatically, are two lamp stands/light bearers, tapped directly into the source. The Spirit gives them an in-exhaustible supply of His oil, for as long as it suits God's plan.

At Pentecost, (or John 20, when Christ breathed on them) the Spirit came upon the Church. After the rapture, the Spirit (restrainer of 2 Thes 2:7) no longer indwells "those that dwell on the earth". The Spirit, in the OT pattern, becomes conditional and temporary (David: "take not thy Holy Spirit from me..."). We, today, can not validly pray that prayer. These two witnesses, in contrast to the earth-dwellers, DO have a permanent in dwelling of the HS.

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The two witnesses will be real men. Revelation does not make any sense otherwise. Why will the World be shocked when they see them resurrected? Because you don't normally see people rise from the dead that's why? 

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Yes, the witnesses are real men.

The "two" I referred to was the "olive tree and candlestick(sic)".

Their light (witness) comes from an in-exhaustible source (the tree which is the source of the oil). Sort of like a fighter jet tethered to a fuel tanker...

 

I like the parallel with Joshua, where he sends in two "spies" into Jericho. They accomplish nothing that would further Joshua's (or the Lord's) battle plan, but instead accomplish the salvation of Rahab. Instead of two spies, maybe it's more appropriate to call them two witnesses?

 

 

There are several other Joshua/Revelation parallels:

- there is silence in heaven before the seventh trumpet, just as they marched silently around Jericho until blowing their trumpets on the seventh day.

- ten heads and seven horns in Revelation, versus Canaan with ten kings, three already conquered and seven remaining in the other side of the Jordan.

- the land being dispossessed of its usurpers. Joshua conquering the seven kings in Canaan, Jesus conquering Satan's forces that occupy the earth.

- victories accomplished with signs in the sky, sun and moon.

- kings of the earth saying "rocks, fall on us." or hiding in caves.

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These 2 Witnesses are witnessing to Israel especially of what they have seen & heard.

 

1. At Mount transfiguration. `And behold  2 men were talking with Him; & they were Moses & Elijah, who appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.`  (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

 

2. At the tomb.  `And it happened that while they were perplexed about this (the empty tomb) behold, 2 men suddenly stood near them in dazzling apparel.` (Luke 24: 4)

 

3. At the Ascension.  `And as they (the disciples) were gazing intently into the sky while He was departing, behold, 2 men in white clothing stood beside them;...` (Acts 1: 10)

 

4.In Jerusalem in the tribulation. `And I will grant authority to my 2 witnesses, & they will prophesy...... & when they have finished their testimony..` (Rev. 11: 3 & 7)

 

These 2 men, 2 witnesses, are able to speak of what they have witnessed of Christ`s, death, resurrection & ascension to Israel. To give a `testimony,` is to tell of what one has witnessed, and God would not leave His people without witnesses to help them in their darkest hour.

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Olive trees and light bearers...

(Candlestick is misleading)

Refers to the tabernacle, and the seven branched lamp-stand. It was fed by pure olive oil. Oil is a frequent idiom for the Holy Spirit.

These two, idiomatically, are two lamp stands/light bearers, tapped directly into the source. The Spirit gives them an in-exhaustible supply of His oil, for as long as it suits God's plan.

At Pentecost, (or John 20, when Christ breathed on them) the Spirit came upon the Church. After the rapture, the Spirit (restrainer of 2 Thes 2:7) no longer indwells "those that dwell on the earth". The Spirit, in the OT pattern, becomes conditional and temporary (David: "take not thy Holy Spirit from me..."). We, today, can not validly pray that prayer. These two witnesses, in contrast to the earth-dwellers, DO have a permanent in dwelling of the HS.

The Greek word is luchnia, meaning lamp-stands (G3087)

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Yes, and I suggest "light-bearers" means the same as lamp stands, but nudges your understanding a little closer to its meaning in 11 of the 12 places it is used in the NT. (The Heb 9 instance is a reference to the tabernacle lamp stand, which ties the olive tree/oil into the discussion).

Candlestick is the unfortunate KJV word used, which further obfuscates the "witness" meaning/connotation that is implied in each usage.

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Shiloh wrote:


"We have men empowered by God to perform signs and wonders and preach the Gospel.  Is that so difficult to comprehend?"

 

 

No not at all, in fact there are many references that are human, each with a meaning according to scripture as already pointed out by the members in other threads.

 

I am pretty sure you have many other texts and scriptural concepts all tied in and connected with what you are saying, and although I don't quite see it your way, I can see what you are saying is sound. 

 

I find that the whole chapter is in symbols, even the two witnesses, but of course this does not mean that there are no realities associated with each symbol. All these symbols are real events and real things. 

 

What those things are depends on knowing some basic keys that unlock Revelation. Which I would like to introduce to you later in other related threads started by someone else.

 

Why? because I feel it is better to relate to what others have discovered in keeping on the same level in discussion.

And it would be a shame not to incorporate what you have accumulated over the years.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Paradox
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Yes, and I suggest "light-bearers" means the same as lamp stands, but nudges your understanding a little closer to its meaning in 11 of the 12 places it is used in the NT. (The Heb 9 instance is a reference to the tabernacle lamp stand, which ties the olive tree/oil into the discussion).

Candlestick is the unfortunate KJV word used, which further obfuscates the "witness" meaning/connotation that is implied in each usage.

Have you considered the term in a new age sense? The Message uses this term frequently, which is chock full of new age terminology.

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^no, I'm not very clued in to new age stuff, nor have I read the Message, nor plan to...

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Now when Christ blessed be his name speak of the olive tree and saying when its leafs are tender know that the end is near and they or them says its a nation but now you say its a man rather two men where is your reasoning on this matter its the same Christ blessed be his name why now this that you say men. Look at the latter part of revelation 11 Christ has said look at the little things and all will be givin to ya so look at two words in this chapter they and them and seek the meaning.

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It was fine as long it was them but when its us its another story have you prepared you heart, and your family , your soul, Joesph did son of Jacob. Know this it will not be americas armys that remove them from our country but the hand of God blessed be his name. It will be liken to the days of Gedion so any man cant say i did it oh that pride.

 

read jeremiah 30

 

 

Remember what got us to this point them that make it thru it so that in our churches and government never fall again to the sins you see today. Remember

Edited by ezekiel
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Now when Christ blessed be his name speak of the olive tree and saying when its leafs are tender know that the end is near and they or them says its a nation but now you say its a man rather two men where is your reasoning on this matter its the same Christ blessed be his name why now this that you say men. Look at the latter part of revelation 11 Christ has said look at the little things and all will be givin to ya so look at two words in this chapter they and them and seek the meaning.

That's the fig tree in Mat 24, with the tender leaves.

Fig tree and vineyard are frequent idioms of Israel and Judah (I forget which is which; if you're curious it wouldn't be hard to figure out...)

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^no, I'm not very clued in to new age stuff, nor have I read the Message, nor plan to...

Good. I am glad to hear that. Yet, it is still best to stick to what the Greek or Hebrew used for words so not to give a different impression than what scripture gives.

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The two witnesses will be real men. Revelation does not make any sense otherwise. Why will the World be shocked when they see them resurrected? Because you don't normally see people rise from the dead that's why? 

 

Surely the world will be shocked to see the whole church resurrected? If the two witnesses represent two whole churches, and these churches are resurrected at the first resurrection, this will shock the world. I believe these two witnesses are two churches, because they are described as two candlesticks, and in Revelation 1:20 candlesticks represent churches.

 

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

These two witnesses are also described as olive trees, which traditionally represent Judah and Israel.. the two olive trees of the OT. So these two witnesses most likely represent the Jerusalem based churches of Israel and Judah.  During the tribulation Israel is protected for 3.5 years, this is the reason the beast is unable to attack them for 1260 days because they are protected for that period. As soon as the period of Jewish protection is complete, the beast attacks the Jewish church in Jerusalem. But soon after that the second coming and resurrection occurs, to the shock of the world.

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I like the connection of the candle sticks with churches, never seen that before as applying to the two witnesses.

 

I will look into it.

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