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The religion of the disciples and John the Baptist ?

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#1
douggg

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What was the religion of the disciples and John the Baptist before Jesus's resurrection ?



#2
OneLight

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They were known as "Followers of the Way", found in Acts 19, 22 and 24.

#3
douggg

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They were known as "Followers of the Way", found in Acts 19, 22 and 24.

Acts of the apostles , was written after the resurrection, of the apostles after the resurrection.   I am asking about what was their religion before the resurrection?

 

Luke 18:

31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

 

What was their religion before the resurrection?


Edited by douggg, 06 May 2014 - 05:25 AM.


#4
OneLight

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Acts is a historical record of what happened.  History is always written after the fact.  I answered your question.

 

As for the scripture you provided, it was not their time to understand His death and resurection. 



#5
douggg

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Acts is a historical record of what happened.  History is always written after the fact.  I answered your question.

 

As for the scripture you provided, it was not their time to understand His death and resurection. 

Then what would have been their religion before the resurrection?     Followers of the way is not a religion.     The disciples and John the Baptist were Jews - so what was their religion before the resurrection?



#6
OneLight

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It was, but so I fully understand why you reject this concept, what do you consider a religion?



#7
douggg

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It was, but so I fully understand why you reject this concept, what do you consider a religion?

No it was not.   Their religion was Judaism.    Judaism means the religion of the Jews.    Judaism is based upon the national revelation at Mt. Sinai, and the covenant that God made with the Children of Israel there.      The disciples and John the Baptist were Jews.    Their concept of the mashiach prior to the resurrection is the same as that of modern Judaism today.  

 

 
re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngn] Show IPA

noun

1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.


#8
Littlelambseativy

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They were practicing Jews, following all of the Jewish customs just as was Jesus, yet showing the disciples a new way, to follow Him and His teaching.

#9
douggg

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They were practicing Jews, following all of the Jewish customs just as was Jesus, yet showing the disciples a new way, to follow Him and His teaching.

Yes, the religion the disciples were practicing was Judaism.    Jesus while the author of the covenant on Mt. Sinai, being the Lord from Heaven, did not practice Judaism as that of his people because they were following the letter of the law, instead of the spirit of the law.    Nonetheless, that the messiah would be God's promised great King of Israel, Son of David anointed was held by both the Jews and Jesus.  

 

Being the Savior dying for the sins of mankind was not part of Judaism's understanding of what the messiah would do - because it was kept a secret until after the resurrection.    Still Jesus is coming back to this world and will fulfill Judaism's basic understanding of the messiah as being the promised King of Israel, Son of David anointed to sit on King David throne over Israel, at the conclusion of Armageddon, Psalms 2.     The coming Anti-messiah will be temporarily received by the Jews instead, based on that the messiah has to be the King of Israel, Son of David, anointed.

 

.    


Edited by douggg, 06 May 2014 - 07:42 AM.


#10
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It was, but so I fully understand why you reject this concept, what do you consider a religion?

No it was not.   Their religion was Judaism.    Judaism means the religion of the Jews.    Judaism is based upon the national revelation at Mt. Sinai, and the covenant that God made with the Children of Israel there.      The disciples and John the Baptist were Jews.    Their concept of the mashiach prior to the resurrection is the same as that of modern Judaism today.  

 

 
religion

 

The concept of the Messiah in modern Judaism has shifted from the time of Jesus. Plus, the concept of the Messiah in Judaism varies based on which branch of Judaism. 



#11
douggg

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It was, but so I fully understand why you reject this concept, what do you consider a religion?

No it was not.   Their religion was Judaism.    Judaism means the religion of the Jews.    Judaism is based upon the national revelation at Mt. Sinai, and the covenant that God made with the Children of Israel there.      The disciples and John the Baptist were Jews.    Their concept of the mashiach prior to the resurrection is the same as that of modern Judaism today.  

 

 
religion

 

The concept of the Messiah in modern Judaism has shifted from the time of Jesus. Plus, the concept of the Messiah in Judaism varies based on which branch of Judaism. 

 

An orthodox rabbi explained to me that in Judaism the branches are a matter of what degree of being Torah observant.    The concept of "the" mashiach has not shifted in Judaism at any time down through history.       It is with the advent of Christianity that messiah was expanded to include Savior who died for the sins of the world.    In Judaism, it is part of man's condition that all men will be resurrected to eternal life unless the individual is especially wicked.

 

From Judaism101.com which does a good job in summarizing Judaism's beliefs...

 

 

The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

 

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "mashiach" will be used throughout this page.

 

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

 

 

 

In Daniel 7, the little horn Anti-christ will emerge as a political leader among the ten leader government of the EU in its final form.

 

In Daniel 8, the little horn king of fierce countenance, stands up out of the EU, in the latter time of it's development, the ten leaders, to come down to Israel from the north and west with the intention of thwarting Gog/Magog.    Will be perceived by the Jews as intending to fight the battles for Israel, in keeping with what they believe about the mashiach.

 

In Daniel 9, arrives in Israel after God supernaturally destroys Gog/Magog, as the prince who shall come, and is received by the Jews thinking that he is the one God sent to be their promised King of Israel, son of David anointed.

 

He oversees the commemorative reading of Moses' 7 year cycle law, in Deuteronomy 31:10-11, to confirm that the land belongs to the Jews forever, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant.

 

The Jews, Judaism, embraces him as their King of Israel, son of David anointed - for a while, until he reveals himself to be the man of sin, which they will be mortified and will impeach him.    Which he will persecute them until Jesus returns to their rescue in Zechariah 14 and in Revelation 19.


Edited by douggg, 06 May 2014 - 09:33 AM.


#12
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They were practicing Jews, following all of the Jewish customs just as was Jesus, yet showing the disciples a new way, to follow Him and His teaching.

Yes, the religion the disciples were practicing was Judaism.    Jesus while the author of the covenant on Mt. Sinai, being the Lord from Heaven, did not practice Judaism as that of his people because they were following the letter of the law, instead of the spirit of the law.    Nonetheless, that the messiah would be God's promised great King of Israel, Son of David anointed was held by both the Jews and Jesus.  

 

Being the Savior dying for the sins of mankind was not part of Judaism's understanding of what the messiah would do - because it was kept a secret until after the resurrection.    Still Jesus is coming back to this world and will fulfill Judaism's basic understanding of the messiah as being the promised King of Israel, Son of David anointed to sit on King David throne over Israel, at the conclusion of Armageddon, Psalms 2.     The coming Anti-messiah will be temporarily received by the Jews instead, based on that the messiah has to be the King of Israel, Son of David, anointed.

 

.    

 

Isaiah 53 was no secret to the Jews, it was there as plain as daylight.

 

Something being secret and something being denied, is two different things.

 

Where are you going with this?



#13
douggg

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They were practicing Jews, following all of the Jewish customs just as was Jesus, yet showing the disciples a new way, to follow Him and His teaching.

Yes, the religion the disciples were practicing was Judaism.    Jesus while the author of the covenant on Mt. Sinai, being the Lord from Heaven, did not practice Judaism as that of his people because they were following the letter of the law, instead of the spirit of the law.    Nonetheless, that the messiah would be God's promised great King of Israel, Son of David anointed was held by both the Jews and Jesus.  

 

Being the Savior dying for the sins of mankind was not part of Judaism's understanding of what the messiah would do - because it was kept a secret until after the resurrection.    Still Jesus is coming back to this world and will fulfill Judaism's basic understanding of the messiah as being the promised King of Israel, Son of David anointed to sit on King David throne over Israel, at the conclusion of Armageddon, Psalms 2.     The coming Anti-messiah will be temporarily received by the Jews instead, based on that the messiah has to be the King of Israel, Son of David, anointed.

 

.    

 

Isaiah 53 was no secret to the Jews, it was there as plain as daylight.

 

Something being secret and something being denied, is two different things.

 

Where are you going with this?

 

You are confusing secret with "not understanding".    I can give someone the forumla  E=MC square - but that doesn't mean that they will understand it. 

 

It is the understanding that was hidden until after the resurrection when Jesus open their minds to the UNDERSTANDING.

 

I am saying that messiah to the Jews and the disciples before the resurrection did not have the same connotation that it became in Christianity.    Messiah to them was understood to be the great promised King of Israel, Son of David anointed.     Not Savior, dying for the sins of mankind.      So the Anti-messiah is someone who will to the Jews fill the role of being the great promised King of Israel, Son of David anointed.    He will be illicit; none the less, he will appear to the Jews to be their promised King.

 

After realizing their mistake in embracing the Anti messiah, once he reveals himself as the man of sin,  Jesus will return and they will welcome him as their king at that time, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.     It will be when Jesus returns in Revelation 19 and in Zechariah 14, when the armies of the world have gathered to stop his return.   

 

Psalms 2:1   Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.


Edited by douggg, 06 May 2014 - 10:10 AM.


#14
Qnts2

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It was, but so I fully understand why you reject this concept, what do you consider a religion?

No it was not.   Their religion was Judaism.    Judaism means the religion of the Jews.    Judaism is based upon the national revelation at Mt. Sinai, and the covenant that God made with the Children of Israel there.      The disciples and John the Baptist were Jews.    Their concept of the mashiach prior to the resurrection is the same as that of modern Judaism today.  

 

 
religion

 

The concept of the Messiah in modern Judaism has shifted from the time of Jesus. Plus, the concept of the Messiah in Judaism varies based on which branch of Judaism. 

 

An orthodox rabbi explained to me that in Judaism the branches are a matter of what degree of being Torah observant.    The concept of "the" mashiach has not shifted in Judaism at any time down through history.       It is with the advent of Christianity that messiah was expanded to include Savior who died for the sins of the world.    In Judaism, it is part of man's condition that all men will be resurrected to eternal life unless the individual is especially wicked.

 

From Judaism101.com which does a good job in summarizing Judaism's beliefs...

 

 

The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

 

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "mashiach" will be used throughout this page.

 

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

 

 

 

In Daniel 7, the little horn Anti-christ will emerge as a political leader among the ten leader government of the EU in its final form.

 

In Daniel 8, the little horn king of fierce countenance, stands up out of the EU, in the latter time of it's development, the ten leaders, to come down to Israel from the north and west with the intention of thwarting Gog/Magog.    Will be perceived by the Jews as intending to fight the battles for Israel, in keeping with what they believe about the mashiach.

 

In Daniel 9, arrives in Israel after God supernaturally destroys Gog/Magog, as the prince who shall come, and is received by the Jews thinking that he is the one God sent to be their promised King of Israel, son of David anointed.

 

He oversees the commemorative reading of Moses' 7 year cycle law, in Deuteronomy 31:10-11, to confirm that the land belongs to the Jews forever, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant.

 

The Jews, Judaism, embraces him as their King of Israel, son of David anointed - for a while, until he reveals himself to be the man of sin, which they will be mortified and will impeach him.    Which he will persecute them until Jesus returns to their rescue in Zechariah 14 and in Revelation 19.

 

 

The Orthodox Rabbi you spoke to was incorrect. There is a definite change in the view of the Messiah.

 

Rambam, and Ramban are both famous Rabbis. Rambam believed Isaiah 53 was speaking of the Messiah. Ramban had doubts whether Isaiah 53 was speaking about the Messiah or Israel, but sided with Isaiah 53 being about the Messiah since it was the Majority opinion in Judaism of his time. Rashi promoted the idea the Isaiah 53 is speaking about Israel, and was popular enough in his commentaries that near the end of Rashis life, the majority opinion was swayed and the majority opinion became that Isaiah 53 is speaking about Israel, not the Messiah. That was a large change. But, the Orthodox Rabbi would not say the view has changed as he is invested in the modern majority opinion.

 

Reform Judaism does not expect a physical Messiah. To them the Messiah is a collective effort, not a person. Since in the states, Reform Judaism makes up at least 50% of Jewish people, and in Israel, liberal Jews are at least 50%, most Jews are not Orthodox. As a matter of fact, in the states, Orthodox Jews are less then 20% of the Jewish population.    

 

As far as a person being able to save another person from sin, that concept is not entirely foreign from Judaism.  The idea of passing merit for good deeds from one person to another is in the realm of illustrative stories of historical Rabbis. The idea of sacrifice needed for sin, or the ability for a person to sacrifice on behalf of another, is practiced by some in Judaism today, which a segment of Rabbis are trying to eliminate.



#15
Littlelambseativy

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Jesus followed the Jewish customs and fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament even the one that said He would be crucified. In His words He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. That is what He was sent to do but they did not accept Him because they were looking for a King not a humble carpenter's son.
To the Messianic Jews, He came in humble form yet Son of God, and King if kings, Redeemer and Lord. All that they looked looked for but did not see.

#16
douggg

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To Qnts2:

 

The rabbi was Rabbi Daniel at MessiahTruth.com if you would like to discuss it with him as far as the different branches in Judaism.  I think he is pretty much an expert in Judaism as are the main countermissionaries at that site.     None in Judaism believe that the suffering servant is an individual, but a remnant that they refer to as "righteous Israel". Tovia Singer a well known Jewish countermissionary has videos on you tube attesting to that concept in Judaism.   Besides the issue is not who the suffering servants in Isaiah 53 is - but that "the" messiah is the great promised King of Israel, Son of David .

In Israel, a big portion of the Jews are not religious at all but secular Jews. After Gog/Magog, there will be a messiah fever taking place.

As far as someone else atoning for the sins of another person, the Jews, which Tovia Singer packages Judaism as "classical Judaism"  do not believe that and cite Ezekiel 18 as their basis that each person is responsible for their own sins.

Rashi commentaries are in the margins of the Masoretic text, which is the accepted Jewish bible, having the vowlizations as well. http://www.chabad.or...-with-Rashi.htm

The Orthodox Jews do not distance themselves from the Pharisees of the first century. Their basic belief about the messiah has not changed from the time of disciples. In 1John 2: when it says... 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
 

It is within the context of what Torah observant Judaism believes now and then regarding the messiah being the promised great King of Israel, Son of David anointed.    The Anti messiah that they in 1John2:18 heard is coming is the another that Jesus prophesied to Nicodemus that the Jews would accept coming his own name to be that great King of Israel, Son of David anointed, illicit.

 

It was impossible for anyone to have fulfilled that prophecy in the past because Israel was not a unified nation since the time of Solomon, until 1948 when Israel was reborn in a single day a unified nation (for anyone to be the false king of).    Of course it is not until the parable of the fig tree, Jerusalem being the fig, being again in the hands of the Jews as an additional requirement, for the Antichrist to appear as that Anti- in lieu of and against - Jesus the true messiah, the one God sent to be their king.    And that is what the prophecies in Daniel 7, then Daniel 8, then Daniel 9 lead up to.    Then the Anti messiah's  fall when he reveals himself to be being the man of sin, and subsequently becoming the beast in Revelation.


Edited by douggg, 06 May 2014 - 11:28 AM.


#17
Qnts2

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To Qnts2:

 

The rabbi was Rabbi Daniel at MessiahTruth.com if you would like to discuss it with him as far as the different branches in Judaism.  I think he is pretty much an expert in Judaism as are the main countermissionaries at that site.     None in Judaism believe that the suffering servant is an individual, but a remnant that they refer to as "righteous Israel". Tovia Singer a well known Jewish countermissionary has videos on you tube attesting to that concept in Judaism.

In Israel, a big portion of the Jews are not religious at all but secular Jews. After Gog/Magog, there will be a messiah fever taking place.

As far as someone else atoning for the sins of another person, the Jews, which Tovia Singer packages Judaism as "classical Judaism"  do not believe that and cite Ezekiel 18 as their basis that each person is responsible for their own sins.

Rashi commentaries are in the margins of the Masoretic text, which is the accepted Jewish bible, having the vowlizations as well. http://www.chabad.or...-with-Rashi.htm

The Orthodox Jews do not distance themselves from the Pharisees of the first century. Their basic belief about the messiah has not changed from the time of disciples. In 1John 2: when it says... 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
 

It is within the context of what Torah observant Judaism believes now and then regarding the messiah being the promised great King of Israel, Son of David anointed.    The Anti messiah that they heard is coming is the another that Jesus prophesied to Nicomedus that the Jews would accept coming his own name to be that great King of Israel, Son of David anointed, illicit.

 

It was impossible for anyone to have fulfilled that prophecy in the past because Israel was not a unified nation since the time of Solomon, until 1948 when Israel was reborn in a single day a unified nation.    Of course it is not until the parable of the fig tree, Jerusalem being the fig, being again in the hands of the Jews as an additional requirement, for the Antichrist to appear as that Anti- in lieu of and against - Jesus the true messiah, the one God sent to be their king.   

 

So, your information is from an anti-missionary site. That means that the people you are speaking with have an agenda to disprove Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. (Of course I have an agenda to show Jesus is the Jewish Messiah).  The problem is, I have found that anti-missionaries will stretch the truth to try to disprove Jesus, even to the point of misquoting or ignoring history which is incovenient.

 

I have gone around with anti-missionaries often enough that I know what their response is before they say it. And they have the same view of my arguments. Although, I like to try to surprise them just to shake things up, which often they fail to respond. And yes, some try to pull the 'superior knowledge of Hebrew' line, but I have caught them in their own games.  

 

It is not up to me to convince you that anti-missionaries are there with a purpose to convince people that Jesus is not the Messiah, as I think you are very aware of that. Since you think the Rabbi is some kind of authority, it is unlikely that I will convince you that he is swayed by his agenda to not admit to certain things about Judaism which are inconvenient. I have the advantage of having taught his side of things, and then discovering that Jesus is really the Messiah, so I have been on both sides of the argument.

 

I'll just ask one question, as you have talked to the Rabbi. Are you a Gentile?



#18
douggg

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So, your information is from an anti-missionary site. That means that the people you are speaking with have an agenda to disprove Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. (Of course I have an agenda to show Jesus is the Jewish Messiah).  The problem is, I have found that anti-missionaries will stretch the truth to try to disprove Jesus, even to the point of misquoting or ignoring history which is incovenient

 

It is information about what they, Judaism, the Jews believe.     They believe that Jesus is a failed messiah.    They are against the idea that Jesus was the messiah, the one God chose to be their king, and against the messiah theology of Christianity as being Savior who died for the sins of mankind.    That is what the Anti-messiah (in lieu of and against Jesus being the messiah) will fill that role.

 

I am not saying that Judaism is right about Jesus not being the messiah, but Judaism is right that the messiah is the promised great King of Israel, Son of David.   So having rejected Jesus, they are going to embrace another - who will be the Anti-messiah - who they will perceive to be that promised great King of Israel, Son of David.  For a short period of time.

 

Yes, I am a gentile.   I have made over 4000 posts at their various sites learning what they believe and why they reject Jesus, and the information gained as a result has been invaluable as to understanding the end times prophecies.  It just gets very hard passing that information on to my fellow Christians.

 

I realize the rabbis are taught to limit their responses to non-Jews to the bare minimum.   But I follow up with additional questions to get as much as I can out of them.


Edited by douggg, 06 May 2014 - 11:46 AM.


#19
Qnts2

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So, your information is from an anti-missionary site. That means that the people you are speaking with have an agenda to disprove Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. (Of course I have an agenda to show Jesus is the Jewish Messiah).  The problem is, I have found that anti-missionaries will stretch the truth to try to disprove Jesus, even to the point of misquoting or ignoring history which is incovenient

 

It is information about what they, Judaism, the Jews believe.     They believe that Jesus is a failed messiah.    They are against the idea that Jesus was the messiah, the one God chose to be their king, and against the messiah theology of Christianity as being Savior who died for the sins of mankind.    That is what the Anti-messiah (in lieu of and against Jesus being the messiah) will fill that role.

 

I am not saying that Judaism is right about Jesus not being the messiah, but Judaism is right that the messiah is the promised great King of Israel, Son of David.   So having rejected Jesus, they are going to embrace another - who will be the Anti-messiah - who they will perceive to be that promised great King of Israel, Son of David.  For a short period of time.

 

Yes, I am a gentile.   I have made over 4000 posts at their various sites learning what they believe and why they reject Jesus, and the information gained as a result has been invaluable as to understanding the end times prophecies.  It just gets very hard passing that information on to my fellow Christians.

 

 

Ok, I am a Messianic Jew. Before believing in Jesus as the Messiah, savior and Lord, I used to teach Judaism in a synagogue Hebrew school. I used to be principal of the school, and I was married to the Rabbi. I joke that I used to be a Pharisee, a teacher of the law, which is accurate. I used to be very adept at countering Christian arguments.  And I used to think any Jewish person who became a Christian or claimed to believe in Jesus to be the worst traitors to the Jewish people.

 

So, I do know what Judaism, Jews believe. I used to teach it. The view you are getting from the Orthodox Rabbi is not entirely accurate. And, a Rabbi affiliated with an anti-missionary organization gives an even more slanted view.

 

As far as Jewish people embracing the anti-messiah, that is true to some extent, but, at this time, thousands of Jewish people have turned to Jesus in the last few years. And I believe in the end times, the Jewish people who actually see Jesus return, will all recognize Him as Messiah.       



#20
douggg

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So, your information is from an anti-missionary site. That means that the people you are speaking with have an agenda to disprove Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. (Of course I have an agenda to show Jesus is the Jewish Messiah).  The problem is, I have found that anti-missionaries will stretch the truth to try to disprove Jesus, even to the point of misquoting or ignoring history which is incovenient

 

It is information about what they, Judaism, the Jews believe.     They believe that Jesus is a failed messiah.    They are against the idea that Jesus was the messiah, the one God chose to be their king, and against the messiah theology of Christianity as being Savior who died for the sins of mankind.    That is what the Anti-messiah (in lieu of and against Jesus being the messiah) will fill that role.

 

I am not saying that Judaism is right about Jesus not being the messiah, but Judaism is right that the messiah is the promised great King of Israel, Son of David.   So having rejected Jesus, they are going to embrace another - who will be the Anti-messiah - who they will perceive to be that promised great King of Israel, Son of David.  For a short period of time.

 

Yes, I am a gentile.   I have made over 4000 posts at their various sites learning what they believe and why they reject Jesus, and the information gained as a result has been invaluable as to understanding the end times prophecies.  It just gets very hard passing that information on to my fellow Christians.

 

 

Ok, I am a Messianic Jew. Before believing in Jesus as the Messiah, savior and Lord, I used to teach Judaism in a synagogue Hebrew school. I used to be principal of the school, and I was married to the Rabbi. I joke that I used to be a Pharisee, a teacher of the law, which is accurate. I used to be very adept at countering Christian arguments.  And I used to think any Jewish person who became a Christian or claimed to believe in Jesus to be the worst traitors to the Jewish people.

 

So, I do know what Judaism, Jews believe. I used to teach it. The view you are getting from the Orthodox Rabbi is not entirely accurate. And, a Rabbi affiliated with an anti-missionary organization gives an even more slanted view.

 

As far as Jewish people embracing the anti-messiah, that is true to some extent, but, at this time, thousands of Jewish people have turned to Jesus in the last few years. And I believe in the end times, the Jewish people who actually see Jesus return, will all recognize Him as Messiah.       

 

Let me be clear.   Those countermissionaries of today, after the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin, will become the apostle Paul's during that second half of the 7 years.

 

We are just trying to put the prophecies together and see how the Jews will come to Jesus and receive Jesus as their King of Israel, Lord and Savior from their sins.     We are not about condemning Israel or the Jews.     Or replacing them with gentiles.

 

Jesus said of that generation that crucified him, the religious leaders who lead the people astray, the Kingdom of God was taken from them and given to another nation.   He did not mean another nation than Israel, the blood descendants of the twelve tribes.    But another nation of the same people, your blood relatives, of the nation that was born in a single day, in Isaiah 66:7-8, which is the Israel over there right now.    The Kingdom of God is going to be brought to this earth, physically given to that nation, with Jesus ruling and reigning here on earth, and Jeremiah 8:23 will be fulfilled.

 

Given your background, I think I can win you over to my view of the end times and the Antichrist - it is not about the Jews being condemned, but how they will be fooled for a short period of time, something like 3 years 4 months.       Then they are all going to turn to Jesus.   I really appreciate your background and am glad that you are here.  I want us to be together on this, okay?


Edited by douggg, 06 May 2014 - 01:03 PM.





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