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Identifying the One New Man

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#1
inchrist

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I would like to get some views on how we Christians or forum members perceive who the One New Man is about.

 

So I have some questions and I would like our Jewish brothers/sisters to get involved

 

What is the One New Man?

What does this concept mean for the Church and Israel?

With whom did the creature of the universe YHVH want to have an internal relationship with?

Can we Identify who the bride of Christ is with the concept of a One New Man… Is Jesus going to wed a Jewish bride or a Christian Gentile… Who is the bride? Is this bride the One New Man?

Why do us Gentiles, when we see the Jews and synagogues , it is completely alien to us and why when the Jews look at the Christian Church don’t recognise it? What has happened?


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#2
Qnts2

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I would like to get some views on how we Christians or forum members perceive who the One New Man is about.

 

So I have some questions and I would like our Jewish brothers/sisters to get involved

 

What is the One New Man?

         The church, or those who are born again coming from all nations.

What does this concept mean for the Church and Israel?  Israel and the church are separate entities, with some of Israel being members of the Church, and some who are not Israel being members of the church.

With whom did the creature of the universe YHVH want to have an internal relationship with? All people but only those who would come to Him have a relationship

Can we Identify who the bride of Christ is with the concept of a One New Man… Is Jesus going to wed a Jewish bride or a Christian Gentile… Who is the bride? Is this bride the One New Man? Jesus is going to wed the body of Messiah, the church.

Why do us Gentiles, when we see the Jews and synagogues , it is completely alien to us and why when the Jews look at the Christian Church don’t recognise it? What has happened?

 

The final question is going to require more room.

 

1. The synagogue system is not in scripture, as it was never commanded. The word, synagogue, is not in the OT/Tenakh. The synagogue system did not start until the Babylonian captivity.  

 

Now, we all know that Judaism and Christianity split. I believe the split occurred around 132 ce. I also believe this split was either prompted by God or that God knew the two would split, to preserve both Christianity and the Jewish people.  

 

Judaism is based on the OT. The church did not carry forward certain aspects of the OT which were practiced in the very early NT church, and for most Christians, they are not familiar with OT practices. Not that all OT practices should have carried forward into the Church, as most of the OT practices were given to the children of Israel and not the church. Only a small subset to be were carried forward with a new application pointing to what Jesus did, memorials.  

 

The church today is mostly Gentile with some Jews. Gentile is of course a very general term, as various Gentile groups have differing languages, cultures and practices. Since God is the God of the Gentiles too, scripture never expressed that Gentiles must learn Jewish culture or practices. With the diversity of Gentiles, some gatherings of believing Gentiles are very different then other gathering of believing Gentiles. Native American/First Nations people conduct services very differently then other Gentile groups. Since all people are created by God, and God is the God of all people, there is nothing inherently wrong with worship from differing cultural views. (I had visited church gatherings of people from differing cultures then my own and have thoroughly enjoyed them. It reminds me of the diversity of people called by God, born again. I have been prayed for in languages I do not know by people who speak those languages. I found it very neat/impressive that despite a language barrier, fellow believers wanted to pray for me).

 

So, I do not expect the diverse people called Christians to be familiar with or understand Jewish practices.   


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#3
FresnoJoe

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One

 

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

 

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Ephesians 2:10-12

 

New

 

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

 

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

 

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Ephesians 2:13-18

 

Man

 

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

 

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

 

In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22


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#4
inchrist

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Hi Qnts 2,

 

I agree to certain aspects of what you have said.

 

What I dont agree with is this and I think this is what most people believe

I also believe this split was either prompted by God or that God knew the two would split, to preserve both Christianity and the Jewish people.

 

This was never intended, man created this split. And its a bold statement and I'll show why I say this.

 

If you look at all Church theology and notably popular ones Dispensationalism (Separation Theology)  and Replacement Theology has been the major thrust of the Gentile Church hands down. God's major thrust you'll find is the complete opposite and about reconciliation, To take two to form one.

 

Further what ever the dividing wall is, the split was destroyed by Yeshua's work on the cross. Therefore anyone who would attempt to seek to reconstruct the dividing wall in other words to separate Gentiles from Jews (as the saying goes "Two distinct groups with two distinct destinies"), seeks likewise to overturn the sacrificial work of Yeshua on behalf of HIS people and has an effect on Yeshua's people from receiving the full blessing of the covenants of the promise. It's a Man made split.

 

Who did God make covenants with? If we identify that, we could Identify who Yeshua's people are and get an understanding of how the "new One Man" looks like and in turn identify who Yeshua's bride is.

 

From the time of Abraham going forward, YHVH never made a covenant with the Gentiles in either the OT or the NT. Mans relationship with YHVH is always based on a covenant relationship with him.

 

For example

 

At the last supper Yeshua with his disciples (Jews) about making a new covenant with him (and with those of his followers (jews)) who would come afterwords) when he initiated the communion elements. Only much later did the gentiles come in.

 

Luke 22:20 ...this is the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.

 

Like wise YHVH declares in the end times he will make a new covenant with the two houses of Israel and Judah

 

Heb 8:8 "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

 

HEB 8:8 is a direct quote from Jeremiah 31:31

The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

 

So who is the House of Israel and the House of Judah?

 

Well we know who the house of Judah is and that's the Jews,  the question now is who is the house of Israel?

 

If we turn to Ezek 37:15-28 we see a prophecy when the two Houses Israel and Judah become one house, which is still to be fulfilled. Interesting....Could this be the "New One Man"

 

So again who is the house of Israel? Here is another amazing clue, that blows me away.

If we turn to Jacob just before his death, was praying prophetically over his two grandsons Ephraim and Manesseh this can be found in Genesis 48:14,16,19

 

Now here is the amazing thing, while Jacob prophesying over Ephraim and Manesseh, Jacob crossed his hands over their heads making the symbol of the paleo-hebrew letter X which resembles a cross and in ancient Hebraic script pictographically means "sign of the covenant"....it gets interesting even further Jacob even mentions in Gen 31:11-13 of a Heavenly Messenger who redeemed him of all evil and further called on this redeemer to bless Ephraim and Manesseh...then just to drive the point home even further tells them they will become like FISH in the midst of the land.

 

Talk about over symbolism...

 

Now which religion uses the fish, which religion uses the paleo-hebrew letter X that looks like the cross?

 

That is the house of Israel..now how does that relate to me as a gentile and christian? I surely dont have blood lines to Ephraim?

 

SO this begs the question who did Paul view the gentiles as?

Ephesians 2:11-19 states that the gentiles of Ephesus are no longer Gentiles but are now Israelites who had been GRAFTED into the HOUSE of ISRAEL by the blood of Yeshua.

 

The Christians some through bloodlines of Ephraim, others been mixed and others not but through Yeshua's blood are the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. We have a direct bloodline to Ephraim period.

 

The house of Judah are the Jews, the House of Israel are the Christians

 

This is the "One new Man"

 

Further more Yeshua is coming back to marry ONE bride, not a Jewish Bride or a gentile christian bride but ONE bride and that bride is an Israelite bride she will have both jewish and Christian aspects, when the house of Judah and Israel are united, thats the bride and thats the ONE NEW MAN


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#5
FresnoJoe

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The house of Judah are the Jews, the House of Israel are the Christians

 

This is the "One new Man"

 

~

 

The House Of Judea Is Israel And The Gentles Ain't

 

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Ephesians 2:11

 

And Both Are Grown Together In Yeshua (In Jesus) Into The Temple Of God

 

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Ephesians 2:20-11


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#6
inchrist

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The House Of Judea Is Israel And The Gentles Ain't

 

2:20-11

 

 The Gentiles are not part of the house of Judah, but Judah is not part of the house of Israel, the Gentiles have been grafted into the house of Israel

 

 

As mentioned this prophecy has not been fulfilled yet

 

Heb 8:8 "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

 

What Im getting at is we are actually israelites


Edited by inchrist, 10 May 2014 - 04:40 AM.

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#7
FresnoJoe

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The House Of Judea Is Israel And The Gentles Ain't

 

...the Gentiles have been grafted into the house of Israel....

 

Habakkuk 8:8 "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

 

What I'm getting at is we are actually Israelis

 

~

 

Bless You Beloved

 

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Revelation 11:13

 

Although I Am Grafted Into The Vine (Jesus)

 

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:1-4

 

I'm Not A Jew But Just A God-Fearing Bible-Believing Jew-Loving Bacon Eating Gentle

 

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
 

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
 

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:23-25

 

And Daily I Pray For The Jew And For His And Her's Israel

 

I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.

 

The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

 

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

 

The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

 

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

 

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:12-17

 

I Am Not (Yet) Part Of Zion Town

 

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:20

 

See, The KING Of The Jews Is My LORD And My God

 

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Joel 3:16

 

Maranatha~!

 

Love, Your Brother Joe


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#8
JohnDB

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Comment: I would like to get some views on how we Christians or forum members perceive who the One New Man is about.

 

Question: So I have some questions and I would like our Jewish brothers/sisters to get involved

 

1. What is the One New Man?

 

Ephesians 2:11-15 (KJV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

 

Spirit Israel / Spirit Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Galatians 6:16, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6, Philippians 3:1-3 / John 4:21-24)

 

The Holy Nation of Priests  (1 Peter 2:3-9, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10)

 

2. What does this concept mean for the Church and Israel?

 

That the Church is not a new entity but what Israel / Judah were intended to become first for the Jew then the Greek... it does not replace anything since the distinction between the physical and the spiritual goes back at least as far as Deuteronomy 10:16 from which Paul later makes the points in Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:6 and Philippians 3:3 etc. This Church / ekklesia (assembly) this Olive Tree goes way back into Judaism and in fact predates it. Only the Covenants have changed.

 

In that sense the Church could rather be called New Covenant (New Testament) Judaism / New Testament Israel.

 

3. With whom did the creature of the universe YHVH want to have an internal relationship?

 

All who would believe in Yeshua.

 

4. Can we Identify who the bride of Christ is with the concept of a One New Man…

 

Absolutely

 

5. Is Jesus going to wed a Jewish bride or a Christian Gentile…

 

Good point. The bride (even to be the bride) must come on his terms.

 

<snip> already answered.

 

6. Why do we Gentiles believers and the Jews who do not believe in Jesus see one another as completely alien?

(i believe i captured the gist of your question worded this way, inchrist) and you asked what has happened?

 

Excellent question!

 

I agree with Q, this will take a bit more than one line to answer.So I will attempt to give my understanding of what has happened in another post in this thread.

 

 

 


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#9
JohnDB

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6. Why do we Gentiles believers and the Jews who do not believe in Jesus see one another as completely alien?

(i believe i captured the gist of your question worded this way, inchrist) and you asked what has happened?

 

Jesus taught in his state of the kingdom address (Matthew 13) that the kingdom had been infiltrated while the servants slept (the tares sown amongst the wheat).

 

This goes back at least as far as Exodus 18 when Moses' father-in-law (the pagan priest of Midian) made a suggestion to Moses which sounded good (still does) to delegate authority in smaller matters... which advice Moses took... without so much as consulting the LORD. What was true for Moses is true for all believers, we must take care to consider and protect our high calling... a Christian who cuts up with unbelievers or acts like them is making a statement / witness of God (whether we realize it or not). And there are times when we MUST obey the LORD when he is trying to make a point. This is why Moses' was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. When God was making a crucial prophetic point that the Rock would be struck ONCE to produce life giving water, Moses in anger struck the Rock a second time.

 

Word to the wise for us all!

 

The very Sanhedrin body that condemned the Son of man to death and turned him over to the pagans to execute traces their origin to that body of elders Moses set up at the behest of Jethro. 

 

Understand, this is not about whipping up on Jewish people. The Gentile influenced Church has done many grave errors and has much blood on its hands.

 

All of this harkens back to the fact that everything is a matter of choice. And God orchestrates all things for the good of those who believe and love his Son... but it is not without lots of grief and pain and suffering and sin on our parts. Abraham had a choice in Genesis 22. Because he made the right choice he became the father of the physical (grains of sand by the sea) and the spiritual (stars in the sky). Moses made mostly right choices. Mostly. This is not to denigrate him but to reveal he is as human as the rest of us but in a class far above all other men (he is the lawgiver like unto the ultimate lawgiver / new covenant maker the Messiah). And Jesus said if you believed Moses then you would believe me... and your accuser is Moses in whom your hopes are set.

 

Given the unstable unpredictable irrational element of human choices down through the millennia, it is miraculous how well the LORD has maintained his plan of redemption.

 

Getting back to the answer...

 

The Jewish people were misled by an infiltrated leadership which had been commissioned by God. They denied the people their Messiah. And still do to this day through their teaching (the leaven of the pharisees)...

 

BUT !

 

Remember !!

 

Romans 11:28 (KJV)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

 

Never forget this !!

 

So, the New Testament / New Covenant Judaism (CHURCH) was without the leadership of the people born and bred to be the leaders of the Church (once the Apostles and original Jewish Church members died off). And the persecution of the Church (first by the Sanhedrin then by the Romans) for the next 3 centuries give or take had the effect of further driving a wedge between the Jewish people and the Savior (new covenant) generationally (a division which is nearly impossible to breach).

 

Then the Roman persecution ended with what turned out to be a hijacking plot (whether or not it was even thought of in Constantine's mind or not). His empire was crumbling. Two capital cities were necessary. And there was that pesky religion that just would not die off... Christianity... which was rather cohesive no matter what Rome threw at them. Hmmm... So he hijacked the faith in the name of legalizing it and made it the religion of state and eventually (in the form of Roman Catholicism) it became the state. And the empty shell of the empire crumbled later.

 

Constantine and his mommy began setting up this religion of state with the Christian name slapped on it and there began the pagan additions. 

 

Now God was involved with several things in the mean time (like the canonizing of the complete Bible enabling scholars to compare scripture with scripture and learn of the triune nature of the on God). So it wasn't all just evil with God sitting on the sidelines wringing his hands...   Oh oh...

 

But this is how we have pagan fertility feasts for holidays in Christianity (Easter and Saturnalia and the fixings). 

 

How can this be?

 

Choice. God ordained and commissioned human choice (which is what Eden was all about... the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or the tree of life).

 

And (hold onto your socks) God had to make compromises / concessions. {gasp}

 

Think not?

 

Read 1 Samuel 8. The scepter departed from Judah and went to Benjamin which God did not intend for there to be a king at all and he granted the people a king.

 

God told Moses to erect the tabernacle and even gave him the designs for it on Sinai (in present day Saudi Arabia and not the so called Sinai peninsula where Constantine's mommy said it was based entirely on her whimsy). God told David an heir of his would build his house / temple in:

 

2 Samuel 7:12-13 (KJV)
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

 

David took that to mean Solomon, but we later find that God meant:

 

Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJV)
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

 

The Messiah.

 

And that temple would be the Church (the building made without hands) Matthew 16:18, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Mark 14:58, Colossians 2:11 etc).

 

Hebrews 8:5 (KJV)
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

 

Solomon had no pattern. In fact the temples that were build were a concession of the LORD to deal with Israel from that time onward through those means... and they were rarely in the will of the LORD from that point onward for any length of time (and the house of the Lord was the house of the Lord in name only).

 

So you see... there is enough "blame" to go around for us all and this is why I am motivated to get believers back to the biblical authority God gave his Word (Psalm 138:2) especially in these times as the end approaches (even if a thousand years from now). We must get back on one page (the Savior's High Priestly prayer in John 17 calls for us to be one as the Father and he are one). And the Bible in place of all other traditions and beliefs is the only way to accomplish this.

 

Otherwise you will have the continuation of the Jews and the Christians in complete disagreement and alienation.


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#10
Qnts2

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The House Of Judea Is Israel And The Gentles Ain't

 

2:20-11

 

 The Gentiles are not part of the house of Judah, but Judah is not part of the house of Israel, the Gentiles have been grafted into the house of Israel

 

 

As mentioned this prophecy has not been fulfilled yet

 

Heb 8:8 "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

 

What Im getting at is we are actually israelites

 

 

Gentiles are not Israelites. What you are teaching comes from the Two House movement, which is in error.

 

Let's start by saying the Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. Jesus was an Israelite, even though He was a son of Judah, a Jew. Israel consists of all 12 tribes. Paul, who was a Benjamite, called himself a Jew and of Israel.

 

Two House theology attempts to use the time after Solomon, when some of the tribes rebelled against the high taxation which was used to finanace various building projects, including the Temple. Out of honor to David, God held the people together until after Davids son, Solomon, but then there was a split, the northern kingdom consisting of most of 9 tribes, and the southern kingdom, consisting of almost all of 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin), most of the Levites (priests), and some of the remaining tribes. The northern kingdom was called the house of Israel because it was a mixture of 9 tribes, although at other times it was called Ephraim, after the largest 'tribe', a son of Joseph. The southern kingdom was called the house of Judah, after the tribe with the largest numbers.

 

The northern kingdom fell into idol worship, sacrificed in places other then the temple, and as a judgement, was attacked by Assyria. Assyria conquered the norther kingdom and scattered most of the people, although some remained in the land and are said to have gone to Judea for Passover. Some escaped to Judea during the attack. So, the Kingdom of Israel ceased to exist.

 

The southern kingdom fell into sin, then had a good king, then a bad king. During the reign of Josiah, just 100 years after the loss of the northern kingdom, he called the nation to repent. Assyria was shrinking at that time, and Josiah's rule included part of the land which was formerly the northern kingdom. Jeremiah was a prophet during Josiah's reign. Jeremiah spoke the famous Jeremiah 31 prophesy, quoted in Hebrews 8:8.

So, Hebrews 8:8, written to the Hebrews/Jews, was a quote of the prophesy from Jeremiah 31:31, which was given to the those who were from the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

 

When Judah was captured by Babylon, not that long afterwards, Babylon conquered Assyria, so all 12 tribes were under the rule of the Babylonians.

 

Today, both the northern kingdom is scattered as well as the southern kingdom. There is no more split kingdom. All are scattered. And all are being regathered into the land of Israel at this time. Recent genetic breakthroughs show that children of Israel can be identified by DNA traits. The Priesthood of Israel carried a unique DNA...haplotype which is uniquely identifiable. Since the priests lived in most of the communities, they were scattered along with the children of Israel. In anyplace the children of Israel were scattered to, a certain percent will be priests. Modern Israel has done DNA testing of various groups which claim to be Israel, and have confirmed certain groups which are Israel. Of course these groups typically have stories passed down for centuries which say they are Israel and escaped during the overthrow. They typically continued to do various observances which come from the law. These groups have been found in Africa, India, the middle east, China, etc. Israel has also done genetic testing among Gentile countries and found the genetic testing shows that they are not descendents of Israel.

 

So, there are no split kingdoms. The children of Israel are regathering in Israel, including those who are descendents of people who were scattered from the northern kingdom just as prophesied.

 

And finally, Two House wants to maintain the split kingdoms which are no longer split but all are scattered. They do this to claim to be from the northern kingdom, and they claim the Jews are not Israel. But Jesus was a Jew, so by their claim, Jesus is not Israel. Hmmmm.         


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#11
JohnDB

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I agree.

 

Israel / Israeli = Judah / Jewish


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#12
goldenjade

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One New Man is much like the two sticks (Judea & Israel) that God has put together as one.  The Lord speaks about the Bride being those of Jew & Gentile. It is neither male or female,(on Earth as it is in Heaven---no male or female in heaven) but a representation of the Body (Church) of Christ. The Lord also says that he had other sheep which are not of this fold; these too, I must bring.... Jesus returns to gather the one new man in the air with a sound of the trump(et). This Bride is adorned, ready, and watching.  These are appointed and anointed to walk with patience and to run this race. As the marked children of the Most High, the Holy One who calls to these; they hear and do the will of the Father.

 

The term "New Man" displays the vision of his(God's) heart in man, doing a "New" thing. God is creating a "New" thing that confirms the old (his original plan). His creation will in the future join the two major groups of peoples to make "One New Man," stating "Man" that has authority through the Spirit. So let us walk in this given authority and grace in Jesus Christ. Let us be ready, watching that we not fall away; knowing the acts and things of his heart. Let our hearts be weighed saying, "Righteousness of Christ...Holiness to God."

 

Your Sister In Christ,

Eileen

 

 


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#13
HeavensDove1

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I'm a Gentile believer in Messiah Yeshua and I remember in my studies that the Tabernacle of  David had no separation between Jew & Gentile, they worshipped together. Thus, when we answer our call and make the G-d of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our G-d, in the Name of Yeshua, the Holy Spirit comes and Tabernacles in us. I believe that G-d sees all who are "saved" as Israel because the very word  Israel means: He has been saved by G-d.

 

So, when we say we are "saved" we are saying what Paul said, that we are part of the Commonwealth of Israel, fellow citizens with the Jews and members of the household of G-d, having been built on the foundation of the apostles (New covenant) and prophets (Old covenant) , Yeshua Messiah Himself being the chief cornerstone.  Paul said -For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation. Ephesians 2:14. Paul also said- that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. Ephesians 3:6.

 

If we (Jew & Gentile) would only recognize what the Adversary has been busy doing for more than 2000 years in keeping us apart, we would saturate the world with the gospel of the Kingdom of G-d!  Blessed be He!


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#14
Qnts2

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I'm a Gentile believer in Messiah Yeshua and I remember in my studies that the Tabernacle of  David had no separation between Jew & Gentile, they worshipped together. Thus, when we answer our call and make the G-d of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our G-d, in the Name of Yeshua, the Holy Spirit comes and Tabernacles in us. I believe that G-d sees all who are "saved" as Israel because the very word  Israel means: He has been saved by G-d.

 

So, when we say we are "saved" we are saying what Paul said, that we are part of the Commonwealth of Israel, fellow citizens with the Jews and members of the household of G-d, having been built on the foundation of the apostles (New covenant) and prophets (Old covenant) , Yeshua Messiah Himself being the chief cornerstone.  Paul said -For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation. Ephesians 2:14. Paul also said- that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. Ephesians 3:6.

 

If we (Jew & Gentile) would only recognize what the Adversary has been busy doing for more than 2000 years in keeping us apart, we would saturate the world with the gospel of the Kingdom of G-d!  Blessed be He!

 

The original meaning of 'Israel', is sometimes debated, but the most common definition is 'God rules'. In the name 'Israel', El is a standard abbreviation for Elochim, which refers to God. The first part of the name is likely from Sar, which means to rule.    

 

The standard root word for saved would be 'shua'. Jesus Hebrew name, 'Yeshua' means salvation. El Yeshuati would mean God is my salvation, and El Yeshuatenu means God is our salvation. If you look at those two words, the suffix added to yeshua, alters the pronoun in the sentence.  The pronoun suffix for his would be 'o'.  So God is his Salvation would be El Yeshuato.

 

Paul actually said that Gentiles who believe are brought near to the commonwealth of Israel. It does not say Gentiles become part of Israel. Israel was the new name assigned to Jacob. Children of Israel, abbreviated Israel, are descendents of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel. Those Gentiles who come to believe they are now Israel have a scriptural inconsistency. In scripture, Israel is promised blessings and curses based on obedience and disobedience. Israel is praised for being faithful, but more often criticized for their unfaithfullness. Gentiles must sort thru these various  verses, and usually cherry pick the positive statements and apply it to themselves, while stating that the curses and negative statements belong to 'natural/physical Israel'. Their basis for picking which verses apply to them and which apply to physical members of Israel is the desirability of the statement.


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#15
HeavensDove1

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Hi Q

 

Paul did say that the Gentiles were bought near only because they were far off, having no hope and without G-d in the world. So does "near" mean, close enough but we cannot enter?

 

Further, what did Paul mean when he said " you are no longer strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of G-d. (Eph. 2:19)  We Gentiles would be citizens of what, if not the Commonwealth of Israel, according to the text.

 

And finally,  what did he mean when he said "in other ages this mystery was not known to the sons of men as it has been revealed by the Holy Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs of the same body and partakers of His promise in Messiah through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. He went on to say that he (Paul), should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Messiah and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in G-d who created all things through Messiah Yeshua.

 

This is in accordance with Torah, Numbers 15:13-16.  Also, Isaiah 56: 3a- Do not let the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord speak saying, "The Lord has utterly separated me from His people. Verses 6 & 7, goes on to say, " Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him and to love the Name of the Lord, to be his servants- everyone who keeps from defiling Shabbat and hold fast My covenant- even them I will bring to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer. 

 

Paul says in Romans 10:12- "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek ( non Jew or Gentile) for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon him. 


Edited by HeavensDove1, 26 June 2014 - 07:11 AM.

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#16
Qnts2

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Hi Q

 

Paul did say that the Gentiles were bought near only because they were far off, having no hope and without G-d in the world. So does "near" mean, close enough but we cannot enter?

 

Further, what did Paul mean when he said " you are no longer strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of G-d. (Eph. 2:19)  We Gentiles would be citizens of what, if not the Commonwealth of Israel, according to the text.

 

And finally,  what did he mean when he said "in other ages this mystery was not known to the sons of men as it has been revealed by the Holy Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs of the same body and partakers of His promise in Messiah through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. He went on to say that he (Paul), should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Messiah and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in G-d who created all things through Messiah Yeshua.

 

This is in accordance with Torah, Numbers 15:13-16.  Also, Isaiah 56: 3a- Do not let the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord speak saying, "The Lord has utterly separated me from His people. Verses 6 & 7, goes on to say, " Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him and to love the Name of the Lord, to be his servants- everyone who keeps from defining Shabbat and hold fast My covenant- even them I will bring to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer. 

 

Paul says in Romans 10:12- "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek ( non Jew or Gentile) for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon him. 

 

Let's start with the question, enter into what?

 

Israel is a physical people who descended from Jacob. Today, most do not believe Jesus to be the Messiah and Lord. That means most children of Israel have not entered into the Messiah. They are still descendents of Jacob/children of Israel. So as scripture says, Israel has not entered in, but the Gentiles have received the promise that Israel sought after. That line of reasoning differentiates Israel from those who are a part of the assembly of the believers in Jesus.  

 

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

 

In terms of salvation, all are saved the same way, so it does not matter whether a person is Jewish or Gentile. There is no distinction when it comes to the way to be saved. Only thru faith in Jesus can a person be saved. But, in scripture, Jews are still Jews and Spanish people are still Spanish, and Italians are still Italians, men are still men, and women are still women, even though in terms of salvation, there is no distinction. So when scripture says, there is no Jew, and no Gentile, no male and no female, it is talking about any differences in the way each person is saved, and the way God views each person. We are all equal. We were all equally sinners far from God, and when we accept Jesus the same way, we are all equally saved, and blessed and loved.  So, Gentiles are equal heirs when it comes to salvation and the New birth with Jews who have received salvation and the new birth. We are all part of the body of Messiah/Christ. Most of the children of Israel today, are not a part of the body of Messiah.  


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#17
HeavensDove1

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Q, I agree with just about all you said but it doesn't take away the fact that our G-d, the G-d of our fathers, sees all His holy, set apart people as "Israel".  Paul was teaching Torah to the Gentiles, when he said in Romans 9, starting with verse 6b- For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham, but "In Issac your seed shall be called".

 

He goes on to say in verse 8: "That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of G-d; but the children of the promise are counted as seed. Now, I know that this scripture is used primarily for replacement theology but I don't believe in that. I believe this is spiritual, for lack of a better word, that the "promise" was the covenant of Abraham,  to make him the father of many nations.  G-d  said "all Israel will be saved." That's Jew and Gentile.  He doesn't change.  Blessed be He!


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#18
JohnDB

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Ephesians 2 (NASB95)

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.


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#19
Qnts2

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Q, I agree with just about all you said but it doesn't take away the fact that our G-d, the G-d of our fathers, sees all His holy, set apart people as "Israel".  Paul was teaching Torah to the Gentiles, when he said in Romans 9, starting with verse 6b- For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham, but "In Issac your seed shall be called".

 

He goes on to say in verse 8: "That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of G-d; but the children of the promise are counted as seed. Now, I know that this scripture is used primarily for replacement theology but I don't believe in that. I believe this is spiritual, for lack of a better word, that the "promise" was the covenant of Abraham,  to make him the father of many nations.  G-d  said "all Israel will be saved." That's Jew and Gentile.  He doesn't change.  Blessed be He!

 

 

Sorry, but we will disagree. God does not see all of those who are set apart as Israel. Israel is a physical linage. Scripture to me is very very clear that Gentiles were to be included as Gods holy people with the Messiah, without being Israel. The NT makes it very clear the Gentiles do not become Israel, as Israel, the physical people are mostly broken off, and in the future are return.

 

What you are proposing is a form of replacement theology. At the time of the Apostles, Rome had a very large Jewish population, and the Roman church started as a Jewish congregation. The Jewish believers were the leaders and teachers of the church and then the Gentiles began to accept the Lord, joining the Roman church. In about 49 ce. Emperor Claudius kicked all Jewish people out of Rome. That was non-believing Jews and believing Jews. The Gentile believers found themselves without the existing leadership so had stepped up to assume the leadership positions. But during that time, developed some incorrect understandings of their positions in relationship to the Jewish people/Israel. Aquila and Priscilla were Jewish believers who had been expelled from Rome. In 54 ce, Claudius died, and Jewish people were allowed to return to Rome. When the Jewish believers returned, a conflict arose between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers. The book of Romans is primarily dealing with this conflict, alternately addressing Jewish believers and Gentile believers. Sections explain to the Gentiles, who Israel is, etc. The section you are quoting is stating that not all of Israel believes on Jesus. It does not say anywhere in those verses that Gentiles become Israel, or that the Church is Israel. It is talking about the fact that some Jews/Israel are saved, and some are not saved, simply said, linage does not guarantee salvation. Just because a Jewish person is a physical descendent of Abraham does not mean they will be saved, just as Esau, a physical descendent of Abraham did not receive some of the promises, but Isaac received the land and the Messianic promises. Israel is clearly made up of saved and unsaved Jewish people/physical children of Jacob. But the church is only those who are saved, both Jews who are saved and Gentiles who are saved.        


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#20
JohnDB

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Sorry, Q, but you are using double talk to mask your inability to support your mere opinion with scripture.

 

A physical born Gentile cannot become a physical Jew (even if converting to Judaism).

 

This is not about becoming physically Jewish but spiritually Jewish.

 

Therefore it cannot be replacement theology.

 

 

Ezekiel 46:16-18 (KJV)
16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons, the inheritance thereof shall be his sons’; it shall be their possession by inheritance.
17 But if he give a gift of his inheritance to one of his servants, then it shall be his to the year of liberty; after it shall return to the prince: but his inheritance shall be his sons’ for them.
18 Moreover the prince shall not take of the people’s inheritance by oppression, to thrust them out of their possession; but he shall give his sons inheritance out of his own possession: that my people be not scattered every man from his possession.

 

Being physically Jewish, having an inheritance in Eretz Israel, being the elect / chosen people of THIS life still applies to the Jewish born individuals (regardless of their faith in anything).

 

Being a child of God, for faith in the Prince of God** (Jesus) is having an inheritance from heaven (not Eretz Israel) our election is in eternity and we are chosen for all eternity to come.

 

** which is what Israel means (Yish Sarar Elohiym "he is the Prince of God")


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