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The First Death


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#1
anthonyjmcgirr

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I wanted to ask a question to old earth creationists. 

 

I've seen some say that the whole creation story doesn't matter and it doesn't impact salvation.  And it probably doesn't, but I think it's important to have faith that it was through Adam's sin that death entered the world and the curse was placed on all life here on earth.  It is because of that, Christ had to come and die to redeem it. 

 

So I've always wondered how Christians can reconcile their faith with science with science totally contradicts the message of the bible.  The message is that sin entered the world and Christ came and conquered it.  If there had been life for millions/billions of years before Adam and before the curse, then that does contradict the message and the word of God. 

 

And this is why a lot of YEC believe it's important to uphold the word of God. 

 

Thoughts?  How do you reconcile the two?


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#2
Enoch2021

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I wanted to ask a question to old earth creationists. 

 

I've seen some say that the whole creation story doesn't matter and it doesn't impact salvation.  And it probably doesn't, but I think it's important to have faith that it was through Adam's sin that death entered the world and the curse was placed on all life here on earth.  It is because of that, Christ had to come and die to redeem it. 

 

So I've always wondered how Christians can reconcile their faith with science with science totally contradicts the message of the bible.  The message is that sin entered the world and Christ came and conquered it.  If there had been life for millions/billions of years before Adam and before the curse, then that does contradict the message and the word of God. 

 

And this is why a lot of YEC believe it's important to uphold the word of God. 

 

Thoughts?  How do you reconcile the two?

 

 

=======================================================================================

 

Thoughts?  How do you reconcile the two?

 

They Cannot.....it's Irreconcilable.  It's a Direct Contradiction to The WORD of GOD and The Doctrine of Salvation in TOTO.

 

AdamEveonmountainofbones_zps3d697aa6.jpg

 

 

 

Can't have Death/Disease/Thorns before Adam......there's no way around it.

 

Praise the LORD!!!


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#3
anthonyjmcgirr

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that's exactly my point.  If you take away the creation story as told in Genesis, then Adam wasn't the cause of sin and the curse as it had already existed for millions of years.  Then that takes away Christ's salvation to atone for that sin.


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#4
anthonyjmcgirr

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Have you actually ever read the Genesis account?  The curse was placed on nature as well as man. 

 

"Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.'


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#5
Cletus

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One way to reconcile it is to find the fault in sciences story. One fault is scientists claim you can tell how old a rock is by the fossils found in it, and you can tell how old a fossil is by the rock its in. This is circular logic. Another fault is how do they tell how old so, ething is??? Carbon dating.... this method has been PROVEN multiple times to be inacurate and yet the so called brightest minds in the industry keep on using it. What does this say for their credibility.... not much. These are only a few examples and there are many more out there. The truth is science only has theories on how old the earth is with no way to PROVE anything and yet, they teach these theories as matter in factly. There is a multitude of info on the internet of christians who are also scientists who teach science as what can be proven. I dont agree with everything they say but there is much truth to what they say. I cant remember the guys name but he has a video on dvd called confronting evolution , its a multi disk documentary type thing that costs money but I ordered up the free version which is only one disc. It is not only about evolution. It talks about dinosaurs and rocks too. Its a good watch but personaly I think he is in left field on a few things. I dont say that to be offensive and I will willingly agree he is probably much more book smart than I am, so maybe he is right on. However there is much to be learned from him, just treat what he says like fish, eat what you can and throw the rest back. There is also other info out there you just got to look.
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#6
Tolken

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anthonyjmcgirr - If you take away the creation story as told in Genesis, then Adam wasn't the cause of sin and the curse as it had already existed for millions of years.  Then that takes away Christ's salvation to atone for that sin.
 
When you have the opportunity could you please point me to the verses where it is stated that Jesus “atoned” for the sins of cats, dogs, parrots, elephants, etc.? There is a considerable difference between the “creation account”  as a whole and the specific issue of death before the fall.  Also, if one truly wishes to discuss a subject there is no need for such arrogant remarks as “Have you actually ever read the Genesis account?” 

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#7
kwikphilly

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Blessings Token...

     Where did somebody say Jesus atoned for cats,dogs,parrots & elephants(I don't see any implication to that by anthony?),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they certainly don't rationalize & make willful decisions in direct dis-obedience with God ,man has dominion over them .............Salvation is offered exclusively for mankind

      Is this at all relevant to your question?LOL

                                                                                                                     With love-in Christ,Kwik


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#8
Tolken

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kwikphilly - Where did somebody say Jesus atoned for cats,dogs,parrots & elephants(I don't see any implication to that by anthony?

 

Blessings to you kwikphilly - (philly - as in Philadelphia?) It was quite implicit in the comments both from anthony and enoch...

 

"...but I think it's important to have faith that it was through Adam's sin that death entered the world"

 

"Adam's sin that death entered the world and the curse was placed on all life here on earth."

 

"Can't have Death/Disease/Thorns before Adam......there's no way around it."

 

If as the Bible states Adam was the first then logically there had been no death relative to "humankind" prior...if the suggestion is that there was no death to any life prior then I question the biblical support of that assertion.


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#9
kwikphilly

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Hey Token

   LOL,no ,like as in a horse(I am a professional horse trainer),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I really do not see the implication but okay,I will see their responses to your question

    Have a Blessed Day...............................................................With love,in Christ,Kwik


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#10
Tolken

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kwikphilly - LOL,no ,like as in a horse(I am a professional horse trainer)

 

Hey Kwikphilly, we have a Oldenburg, Percheron mix, Canadian Thoroughbred, and a welsh pony...dressage emphasis.

 

As for the implication perhaps you are correct and I misinterpreted... as I see the entire redemptive process solely between God and mankind such statements as "If there had been life for millions/billions of years before Adam and before the curse, then that does contradict the message and the word of God." as not at all a contradiction. So unless one asserts an equality between humans and animals there exists no contradiction.
 


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#11
gray wolf

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Yes, I do not see a problem with living creatures dying before the fall of Adam or the creation of Adam. That requires a degree of interpretation.   It changes nothing in respect to the Atonement in my opinion.  The death of humans, however, holds special significance.  And as a side note, you do not have to believe in evolution to accept an old earth view. 

A question:  with the Curse, were pathogens and parasites created to bring mischief upon living things?  There were no roundworms and other nasty things in the original creation?


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#12
Tolken

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gray wolf - Yes, I do not see a problem with living creatures dying before the fall of Adam or the creation of Adam.

 

Agreed, though I don't see it necessarily requiring a "degree of interpretation" more so than other views. I will use the term evolution though I much prefer using God ordained Process. (GOP - no relation at all)  I take the Chesterton view: "Evolution is either an innocent scientific description of how certain things came about: or, if it is anything more than this, it is an attack upon itself."  Also, "...for a personal God might just as well do things slowly as quickly, especially, if like the Christian God, he were outside of time". 


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#13
anthonyjmcgirr

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Well, Christ didn't come as a cat to bring salvation to cats.  Or come as a dog to bring salvation to dogs.  He came as a man to redeem us in the eyes of God. 

 

And if God used evolution, then what about us being created in His image? 

 

Also, Christ spoke of the flood, of creation, Adam and Eve.  Do we ignore His words because science doesn't agree?  This is why I have a problem with this whole situation.  It calls Christ a liar.  It says the bible is a liar.  And if one story is false, then how can you trust the rest? 


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#14
Tolken

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anthonyjmcgirr - Do we ignore His words because science doesn't agree?  This is why I have a problem with this whole situation.  It calls Christ a liar.  It says the bible is a liar.  And if one story is false, then how can you trust the rest?

 

You are going to extremes...what is being ignored other then your interpretation of scripture? Carefully read the responses and you will see no story is claimed false...simply the way it is interpreted.  


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#15
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I am not necessarily an evolutionist (although I dismiss suggestions that every scientist is either aligned with, or motivated by, Satan in order to undermine God's Word). But I do see some assumptions held on the YEC view that need closer examination.

 

Some above have assumed that thorns and thistles are a result of the fall, as if they are morally evil.  The Bible says no such thing.  It says that the earth will produce thorns and thistles for you.  That is, agriculture is going to be frustrating.  Does anyone here think that because roses include thorns they are therefore a part of the fall?

 

We assume that the death of animals is a great evil and therefore introduces evil at a far earlier stage than Genesis, on a literal interpretation, suggests: that is the pathetic fallacy.  Augustine noted long ago that the death of some trees is required if other trees--and in the long run, all trees--alive.  Is that a great evil?  Again, are we to presume that Adam and Eve never once stepped on an ant?  Was the grass they walked on immune to pressure?  

 

I suppose YEC's will hold that the diet of lions prior to the fall was vegetarian--and yet it is held (or is this yet another conspiracy?) that a lion currently could not possibly survive on anything other than meat--does that mean that simultaneous with the fall the entire digestive system of all lions was altered to a carnivorous state?

 

My chief point is that YEC is not a slam dunk.  It too has numerous obstacles which (in my opinion) can only be gotten over by blind faith, or fideism as some people call it: by which I mean (and I speak candidly, perhaps unpardonably so) the suspension of reason altogether.

 

clb


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#16
a-seeker

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I am not necessarily an evolutionist (although I dismiss suggestions that every scientist is either aligned with, or motivated by, Satan in order to undermine God's Word). But I do see some assumptions held on the YEC view that need closer examination.

 

Some above have assumed that thorns and thistles are a result of the fall, as if they are morally evil.  The Bible says no such thing.  It says that the earth will produce thorns and thistles for you.  That is, agriculture is going to be frustrating.  Does anyone here think that because roses include thorns they are therefore a part of the fall?

 

We assume that the death of animals is a great evil and therefore introduces evil at a far earlier stage than Genesis, on a literal interpretation, suggests: that is the pathetic fallacy.  Augustine noted long ago that the death of some trees is required if other trees--and in the long run, all trees--alive.  Is that a great evil?  Again, are we to presume that Adam and Eve never once stepped on an ant?  Was the grass they walked on immune to pressure?  

 

I suppose YEC's will hold that the diet of lions prior to the fall was vegetarian--and yet it is held (or is this yet another conspiracy?) that a lion currently could not possibly survive on anything other than meat--does that mean that simultaneous with the fall the entire digestive system of all lions was altered to a carnivorous state, but why?

 

My chief point is that YEC is not a slam dunk.  It too has numerous obstacles which (in my opinion) can only be gotten over by blind faith, or fideism as some people call it: by which I mean (and I speak candidly, perhaps unpardonably so) the suspension of reason altogether.

 

As for comments on sin, I never needed Genesis to tell me that the world was whack--as Chesterton pointed out, sin is one of the Church's doctrine that is has been empirically validated (i.e. not by faith) by the last 3500 years of human experience.  Genesis never taught me that something was amiss with the world--the death of loved ones, nay, the first time I fell off the slide or could not find my mom in a grocery store, told me that.  Genesis taught me that it all began with disobedience.  Whether that involved the literal eating of an apple--well, that is not crucial to my believe in sin, nor to faith in Christ.

 

clb


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#17
a-seeker

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I am not necessarily an evolutionist (although I dismiss suggestions that every scientist is either aligned with, or motivated by, Satan in order to undermine God's Word). But I do see some assumptions held on the YEC view that need closer examination.

 

Some above have assumed that thorns and thistles are a result of the fall, as if they are morally evil.  The Bible says no such thing.  It says that the earth will produce thorns and thistles for you.  That is, agriculture is going to be frustrating.  Does anyone here think that because roses include thorns they are therefore a part of the fall?

 

We assume that the death of animals is a great evil and therefore introduces evil at a far earlier stage than Genesis, on a literal interpretation, suggests: that is the pathetic fallacy.  Augustine noted long ago that the death of some trees is required if other trees--and in the long run, all trees--alive.  Is that a great evil?  Again, are we to presume that Adam and Eve never once stepped on an ant?  Was the grass they walked on immune to pressure?  

 

I suppose YEC's will hold that the diet of lions prior to the fall was vegetarian--and yet it is held (or is this yet another conspiracy?) that a lion currently could not possibly survive on anything other than meat--does that mean that simultaneous with the fall the entire digestive system of all lions was altered to a carnivorous state, but why?

 

My chief point is that YEC is not a slam dunk.  It too has numerous obstacles which (in my opinion) can only be gotten over by blind faith, or fideism as some people call it: by which I mean (and I speak candidly, perhaps unpardonably so) the suspension of reason altogether.

 

As for comments on sin, I never needed Genesis to tell me that the world was whack--as Chesterton pointed out, sin is one of the Church's doctrine that is has been empirically validated (i.e. not by faith) by the last 3500 years of human experience.  Genesis never taught me that something was amiss with the world--the death of loved ones, nay, the first time I fell off the slide or could not find my mom in a grocery store, told me that.  Genesis taught me that it all began with disobedience.  Whether that involved the literal eating of an apple--well, that is not crucial to my believe in sin, nor to faith in Christ.

 

Well, Christ didn't come as a cat to bring salvation to cats.  Or come as a dog to bring salvation to dogs.  He came as a man to redeem us in the eyes of God. 

 

And if God used evolution, then what about us being created in His image? 

 

Also, Christ spoke of the flood, of creation, Adam and Eve.  Do we ignore His words because science doesn't agree?  This is why I have a problem with this whole situation.  It calls Christ a liar.  It says the bible is a liar.  And if one story is false, then how can you trust the rest? 

 

If God used evolution....

 

We should all recognize that God used a form of evolution even on a literalist interpretation of Genesis.  Man was made from dirt.  God took a pile of dirt and molded it, evolved it, into a man, into His image.  Yet somehow we are all offended by the idea that behind our first appearance there lies any number of live organisms!!  Is dirt more noble a material than an ape!!  Do you go to the zoo to marvel at dirt, and ignore the almost human features and responses of the ape?!  Why is it that we all feel our status as imago dei perfectly in tact when dirt is the material cause of our being, but suddenly we are in an uproar when we think it was an actual live creature.  This baffles me.  Please explain, anyone.  

 

clb

 

 

 

clb


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#18
Enoch2021

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Yes, I do not see a problem with living creatures dying before the fall of Adam or the creation of Adam. That requires a degree of interpretation.   It changes nothing in respect to the Atonement in my opinion.  The death of humans, however, holds special significance.  And as a side note, you do not have to believe in evolution to accept an old earth view. 

A question:  with the Curse, were pathogens and parasites created to bring mischief upon living things?  There were no roundworms and other nasty things in the original creation?

 

=======================================================================
 

Yes, I do not see a problem with living creatures dying before the fall of Adam or the creation of Adam. That requires a degree of interpretation.

 

Let's go ahead and keep it simple so as to eliminate "a priori" Doctrine Compromising Adherence's of that Insidious "Interpretations" monster.

 

 

(Genesis 3:17-18) "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;  {18} Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;"

 

"cursed is the ground for thy sake" - hmmm, so other things were cursed because of Adam's Sin.

 

"Thorns also and thistles"- Marked it.  When?....

 

"shall it bring forth" - NOW the cursed ground will bring forth Thorns.  With the rather "Stamp on the Forehead" obvious implication of ZERO before this time because there was no curse.

 

 

Well.....

 

Thorns_zpsa4bf2848.jpg       Thorns1_zpse0cf1763.jpg

 

 

 

These are Fossilized Thorns found in the same Strata as all the other Dead/Diseased things.  "Thorns" are idiomatically used and Represented as SIN throughout Scripture:

 

(Matthew 7:16) " Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

 

(Matthew 13:22) " He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

 

(Mark 4:7) " And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit."

 

(John 19:2) "And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,"

 

(Hebrews 6:8) "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

 

 

Did Thorns occur before or after Adams Fall?

 

A question:  with the Curse, were pathogens and parasites created to bring mischief upon living things?  There were no roundworms and other nasty things in the original creation?

 

What does THE WORD say?  Do these strike you as "and GOD saw that it was Good"?


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#19
a-seeker

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Yes, I do not see a problem with living creatures dying before the fall of Adam or the creation of Adam. That requires a degree of interpretation.   It changes nothing in respect to the Atonement in my opinion.  The death of humans, however, holds special significance.  And as a side note, you do not have to believe in evolution to accept an old earth view. 

A question:  with the Curse, were pathogens and parasites created to bring mischief upon living things?  There were no roundworms and other nasty things in the original creation?

 

=======================================================================
 

Yes, I do not see a problem with living creatures dying before the fall of Adam or the creation of Adam. That requires a degree of interpretation.

 

Let's go ahead and keep it simple so as to eliminate "a priori" Doctrine Compromising Adherence's of that Insidious "Interpretations" monster.

 

 

(Genesis 3:17-18) "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;  {18} Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;"

 

"cursed is the ground for thy sake" - hmmm, so other things were cursed because of Adam's Sin.

 

"Thorns also and thistles"- Marked it.  When?....

 

"shall it bring forth" - NOW the cursed ground will bring forth Thorns.  With the rather "Stamp on the Forehead" obvious implication of ZERO before this time because there was no curse.

 

 

Well.....

 

Thorns_zpsa4bf2848.jpg       Thorns1_zpse0cf1763.jpg

 

 

 

These are Fossilized Thorns found in the same Strata as all the other Dead/Diseased things.  "Thorns" are idiomatically used and Represented as SIN throughout Scripture:

 

(Matthew 7:16) " Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

 

(Matthew 13:22) " He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

 

(Mark 4:7) " And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit."

 

(John 19:2) "And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,"

 

(Hebrews 6:8) "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

 

 

Did Thorns occur before or after Adams Fall?

 

A question:  with the Curse, were pathogens and parasites created to bring mischief upon living things?  There were no roundworms and other nasty things in the original creation?

 

What does THE WORD say?  Do these strike you as "and GOD saw that it was Good"?

 

Wrong: thorns and thistles it shall bring for FOR YOU....in terms of agriculture.


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#20
Enoch2021

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Yes, I do not see a problem with living creatures dying before the fall of Adam or the creation of Adam. That requires a degree of interpretation.   It changes nothing in respect to the Atonement in my opinion.  The death of humans, however, holds special significance.  And as a side note, you do not have to believe in evolution to accept an old earth view. 

A question:  with the Curse, were pathogens and parasites created to bring mischief upon living things?  There were no roundworms and other nasty things in the original creation?

 

=======================================================================
 

Yes, I do not see a problem with living creatures dying before the fall of Adam or the creation of Adam. That requires a degree of interpretation.

 

Let's go ahead and keep it simple so as to eliminate "a priori" Doctrine Compromising Adherence's of that Insidious "Interpretations" monster.

 

 

(Genesis 3:17-18) "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;  {18} Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;"

 

"cursed is the ground for thy sake" - hmmm, so other things were cursed because of Adam's Sin.

 

"Thorns also and thistles"- Marked it.  When?....

 

"shall it bring forth" - NOW the cursed ground will bring forth Thorns.  With the rather "Stamp on the Forehead" obvious implication of ZERO before this time because there was no curse.

 

 

Well.....

 

Thorns_zpsa4bf2848.jpg       Thorns1_zpse0cf1763.jpg

 

 

 

These are Fossilized Thorns found in the same Strata as all the other Dead/Diseased things.  "Thorns" are idiomatically used and Represented as SIN throughout Scripture:

 

(Matthew 7:16) " Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

 

(Matthew 13:22) " He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

 

(Mark 4:7) " And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit."

 

(John 19:2) "And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,"

 

(Hebrews 6:8) "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

 

 

Did Thorns occur before or after Adams Fall?

 

A question:  with the Curse, were pathogens and parasites created to bring mischief upon living things?  There were no roundworms and other nasty things in the original creation?

 

What does THE WORD say?  Do these strike you as "and GOD saw that it was Good"?

 

Wrong: thorns and thistles it shall bring for FOR YOU....in terms of agriculture.

 

 

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This is your Rebuttal...

 

"Wrong: thorns and thistles it shall bring for FOR YOU....in terms of agriculture." ?

 

Seriously?  Care to expand "FOR ME" to a specific point?

 

(Genesis 3:17-18) "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;  {18} Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;"

 

 

and, do you have a answer....

 

Did Thorns occur before or after Adams Fall?


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