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Tribulation Believers

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#1
D-Dawn

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Revelation seems to indicate that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will be absent during the Tribulation. Does this mean that those who become believers during the Tribulation will not be indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

#2
OakWood

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Revelation seems to indicate that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will be absent during the Tribulation. Does this mean that those who become believers during the Tribulation will not be indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

 

Where does it say that the Holy Spirit will be absent?



#3
D-Dawn

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I knew I should've waited to post my question. I am at work without the benefits of Bible tools. Let me search for that passage....or the verses that give that impression.

#4
bopeep1909

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Revelation seems to indicate that the ministry of the Holy Spirit will be absent during the Tribulation. Does this mean that those who become believers during the Tribulation will not be indwelt with the Holy Spirit?

I have read that the Holy Spirit will be present during the tribulation.That is a misunderstanding from 2 Thessalonians 2:7 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[a] who now restrains will do so until He[b] is taken out of the way.  that the tribulation will be removed.The Holy Spirit is promised to every born-again believer.No where in scripture is that promise taken away.There will be alot of people saved during the tribulation.Without the Holy Spirit that could not happen Revelation 7:9-14.Now is the time to be saved and ask Jesus Christ into your life.You will be Blessed for believing and going to heaven at the Rapture.

 

In Thessalonians 2 8-9 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders we see that restraining power of the Holy Spirit holds back the "lawless one" the antichrist so he is not revealed before God wills it.The passage says the Holy Spirit will not restrain the growth of evil,but that does not mean He will not minister.



#5
D-Dawn

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After some reading, I see that I am horribly wrong about the Holy Spirit not being active during the Tribulation; especially during the first half of it. It seems however that during the second half...after the Witnesses are killed and the antichrist kicks into high gear...it might be a time where the Holy Spirit rests (for lack of a better term). Opinions?



#6
Cletus

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Here is a goodin...
matt 25:7 its about the ten virgins, five were wise, five foolish....
then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

the word trimmed in greek is kosmeo (kos-meh-oh) its where we derive words such as cosmetic. It means to beautify, arrange, decorate, embellish, adorn or put in order. If you study this word it gives an illustration of revival beforw the second coming.

To me this is saying He will be ever present and at work in our lives to sanctify us. Ridding the church of sin.

Dont that just make you hunger? Dont it just make everything in you cry out and say yes Lord please give me that? Glory!!! praise God for His goodness.

#7
Cletus

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And another ...
acts 2:17 and it shall come to pass in the last days, saithGod, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. 18) and on my servants and my haindmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit and they shall prophesy.

Sounds like to me the Holy Ghost will be quite active.

#8
bopeep1909

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After some reading, I see that I am horribly wrong about the Holy Spirit not being active during the Tribulation; especially during the first half of it. It seems however that during the second half...after the Witnesses are killed and the antichrist kicks into high gear...it might be a time where the Holy Spirit rests (for lack of a better term). Opinions?

At some point which God only knows the timing the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit will be removed,the anti-christ will be revealed and the tribulation period will begin.

Another reason why the Holy Spirit will not be removed is because He is omnipresent.



#9
Salty

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After some reading, I see that I am horribly wrong about the Holy Spirit not being active during the Tribulation; especially during the first half of it. It seems however that during the second half...after the Witnesses are killed and the antichrist kicks into high gear...it might be a time where the Holy Spirit rests (for lack of a better term). Opinions?

 

I must agree with others, that idea originates from man's theology on 2 Thess.2 with thinking Apostle Paul was speaking of The Holy Spirit being what is 'withheld' (2 Thess.2:6). That's not what that verse is even about. It's about the one who withholds the coming of the Antichrist until it's time for him to appear at the end of this world just prior to our Lord Jesus' coming.

 

If you'll read through our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 you'll discover He foretold that some of us will be delivered up to councils and synagogues at the end in order to give a Testimony for Jesus against them by The Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded there to not premeditate what one will say in that hour, but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives to say. In the Luke 21:13-15 example of that, Jesus said what is said in that hour by The Holy Spirit our adversaries won't be able to gainsay against nor resist.

 

I know some Churches are teaching that we won't be here on earth for those events of the latter half of the tribulation, but that's simply not true per God's Word. This Testimony and Witness for Christ Jesus by His elect in the end against Satan's host on earth is going to begin the fall of the evil empire over all the nations in that near-future time. Imagine, the majority of the world thinking the coming Antichrist is God, and worshiping him in place of God because of their being deceived, and then certain of Christ's servants are delivered up as if they were criminals, only to wind up giving a Witness against them by The Holy Spirit that they won't be able to resist! One of the ways we will help win this final battle against Satan and his hosts on earth in that tribulation time will be by The Holy Spirit just prior to our Lord Jesus coming.

 

Truly, our LORD has the Victory, and His faithful are with Him. We should listen to Him, for He already told us these things in His Word of Truth, if only His people would take time to read It.



#10
Salty

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If you want to know what it is that is taken away that is withholding right now per 2 Thess.2:6, then look at Daniel chapter 10, which is a Heavenly view of events affecting the earth, and is about the Archangel Michael that does the withholding. That's what Apostle Paul was talking about in the 2 Thess.2:6 Scripture, not The Holy Spirit.



#11
Montana Marv

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Yet, Michael is the great prince who protects Daniels people; and this is the time of the great distress mentioned in Matt 24:21. or the last half of the 70th week.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#12
Salty

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Yet, Michael is the great prince who protects Daniels people; and this is the time of the great distress mentioned in Matt 24:21. or the last half of the 70th week.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Like I said, look at the Dan.10 chapter events which include the subject of withholding in relation to 2 Thess.2:6-7.

 

Dan 10:13-14
13    But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14    Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
(KJV)

Dan 10:20-21
20    Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21    But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)

 

The events described to Daniel by the angel are Heavenly pattern events that affect events upon the earth. That's the viewpoint of that chapter. The "prince of Persia" in that chapter is a symbolic title for Satan.

 

At Dan.12:1 the Archangel Micael makes a 'stand' (in Heaven), and then a description of the tribulation time is given. Per Rev.12:7 forward, it is the Archangel Michael that wars with Satan in Heaven when the dragon is cast down to the earth with his angels.

 

Thus the idea some have that the one doing the withholding of 2 Thess.2:6 being The Holy Spirit is simply an idea from men that have forgotten one of the subjects of Dan.10 and Dan.12:1 in relation to Rev.12:7-9 linked with Matt.24:21, or they purposefully omit that Scripture link in order to serve the pre-trib rapture theories of men.


Edited by Salty, 19 May 2014 - 12:25 PM.


#13
Montana Marv

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Yet, Michael is the great prince who protects Daniels people; and this is the time of the great distress mentioned in Matt 24:21. or the last half of the 70th week.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Like I said, look at the Dan.10 chapter events which include the subject of withholding in relation to 2 Thess.2:6-7.

 

Dan 10:13-14
13    But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14    Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
(KJV)

Dan 10:20-21
20    Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21    But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)

 

The events described to Daniel by the angel are Heavenly pattern events that affect events upon the earth. That's the viewpoint of that chapter. The "prince of Persia" in that chapter is a symbolic title for Satan.

 

At Dan.12:1 the Archangel Micael makes a 'stand' (in Heaven), and then a description of the tribulation time is given. Per Rev.12:7 forward, it is the Archangel Michael that wars with Satan in Heaven when the dragon is cast down to the earth with his angels.

 

Thus the idea some have that the one doing the withholding of 2 Thess.2:6 being The Holy Spirit is simply an idea from men that have forgotten one of the subjects of Dan.10 and Dan.12:1 in relation to Rev.12:7-9 linked with Matt.24:21, or they purposefully omit that Scripture link in order to serve the pre-trib rapture theories of men.

 

Salty

 

So I see you inserted in () (in Heaven) and also put in; makes a "stand", instead of arises.  It appears the Michael is a major protector of Israel.  Yes the dragon is cast to earth after the war in Heaven, by Michael and his angels; but the protection of Israel is upon the earth where Satan is not allowed to harm them.  But Rev 12:13 - When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman (Israel) who had given (past tense) birth to the male child (Jesus Christ).  And she was protected for 3 1/2 years.  In Dan 12:1 Michael arises (comes forth) to meet their needs at the time of great distress.  Michael wars in Heaven against Satan, when Satan is cast down to earth, Michael then comes forth to keep Israel safe from Satan's onslaught to try to destroy Israel.  I see the Rider of the 1st Seal as Satan being cast of earth.  And then the final half of the 70th Week begins.

 

That is how I see it.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv



#14
Salty

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Yet, Michael is the great prince who protects Daniels people; and this is the time of the great distress mentioned in Matt 24:21. or the last half of the 70th week.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Like I said, look at the Dan.10 chapter events which include the subject of withholding in relation to 2 Thess.2:6-7.

 

Dan 10:13-14
13    But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14    Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
(KJV)

Dan 10:20-21
20    Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21    But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)

 

The events described to Daniel by the angel are Heavenly pattern events that affect events upon the earth. That's the viewpoint of that chapter. The "prince of Persia" in that chapter is a symbolic title for Satan.

 

At Dan.12:1 the Archangel Micael makes a 'stand' (in Heaven), and then a description of the tribulation time is given. Per Rev.12:7 forward, it is the Archangel Michael that wars with Satan in Heaven when the dragon is cast down to the earth with his angels.

 

Thus the idea some have that the one doing the withholding of 2 Thess.2:6 being The Holy Spirit is simply an idea from men that have forgotten one of the subjects of Dan.10 and Dan.12:1 in relation to Rev.12:7-9 linked with Matt.24:21, or they purposefully omit that Scripture link in order to serve the pre-trib rapture theories of men.

 

Salty

 

So I see you inserted in () (in Heaven) and also put in; makes a "stand", instead of arises.  It appears the Michael is a major protector of Israel.  Yes the dragon is cast to earth after the war in Heaven, by Michael and his angels; but the protection of Israel is upon the earth where Satan is not allowed to harm them.  But Rev 12:13 - When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman (Israel) who had given (past tense) birth to the male child (Jesus Christ).  And she was protected for 3 1/2 years.  In Dan 12:1 Michael arises (comes forth) to meet their needs at the time of great distress.  Michael wars in Heaven against Satan, when Satan is cast down to earth, Michael then comes forth to keep Israel safe from Satan's onslaught to try to destroy Israel.  I see the Rider of the 1st Seal as Satan being cast of earth.  And then the final half of the 70th Week begins.

 

That is how I see it.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Though Dan.12:1 KJV says Michael will "stand up" the Hebrew word for that means 'to stand' (Strong's no. 5975). That's why I interpreted it to mean he will literally make a 'stand'.

 

The viewpoint in Dan.10 which Daniel is shown is in the Heavenly. The whole chapter is about a Heavenly pattern of events that have their effect with events upon the earth, so we're actually in agreement on that point. The difference is that God's angels do not have to physically be on the earth in order to do that.

 

The Rev.12:7 event of the dragon cast to earth with his angels and then goes to make war with the saints on earth is pointing directly to the last half of Daniel's "one week", what Christ called the "great tribulation" in Matt.24. That's what the subject is in Dan.12:1 right after Michael stands up, as we are then told, "...and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:..."

 

That doesn't mean Christ's faithful aren't protected, but the actual question should be - protected from what specifically that the dragon will try to do upon God's people in that time? We are shown that later in Rev.12 also:

 

Rev 12:15
15    And the serpent cast
out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
(KJV)

 

We well know that water does not come out one's mouth like a real flood, so what does our Lord mean by that? Words come out of one's mouth, and that's what will come out that serpent-dragon's mouth once he is cast to this earth with his angels to go after God's faithful on earth. The meaning is about lies that cause deception coming out of the serpent's mouth like how a flood of waters works. God first gave this flood idea as a metaphor back in the OT prophets.

 

Thus the type... of protection upon Christ's faithful in that time will be a spiritual protection against the serpent's lies, against deception. That was our Lord Jesus' first warning in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, to take heed that no man deceive us. It was also Apostle Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2 when he declared the end time event of the Antichrist coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself as God, exalting himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped (2 Thess.2:3-4).

 

I agree about the rider on the first horse of Rev.6 is about the dragon cast to the earth for the end. That is 6th seal, 6th trumpet, 6th vial timing (666). (Consider Rev.6:13 about the stars being angels).


Edited by Salty, 20 May 2014 - 01:38 PM.





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