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Apologetic on Slavery & Rape in the Bible

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The Bible was firmly against forced slavery.

 

Exodus 21:16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death."

Exodus 21: 20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished."

Exodus 21:26 "If a man strikes his servant's eye, or his maid's eye, and destroys it, he shall let him go free for his eye's sake."

Exodus 21:27 "If he strikes out his male servant's tooth, or his female servant's tooth, he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."

Deuteronomy 23:15 "If slaves should escape from their masters and take refuge with you, you must not hand them over to their masters."

Deuteronomy 23:16 "Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him."

Deuteronomy 15:12 "If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free."

A man could enter a contract for several years as a slave but had to be released at the end. Taking someone as a slave forcefully was clearly against what The Bible taught. Beating a slave was also illegal and meant that the slave could go free. On the seventh year, a slave had to be set free, their contract fulfilled.

Atheists like to ignore these verses though.

 

Not to be nit picking but isn't it true that only Jews were let go after 7 years? [EX 21:2]  I didn't think that applied to non-Jews [Leviticus 25:45-46].  Also, it was illegal to outright kill a slave, but beating them wasn't what was wrong.  Let's take a look at one of the verses you mention:

 

Exodus 21: 20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished."

 

....and the slave DIES as a direct result...

 

Look at the very next verse, 21:21

 

But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

 

 

It isn't saying that beating a slave is wrong, it's saying beating one outright to the point where the slave dies right away.  If I'm not mistaken, if the slave dies after a few days they would assume that the master didn't intend the kill the slave and the master was off the hook, no punishment.  

Edited by Bonky
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.... if the slave dies after a few days they would assume that the master didn't intend the kill the slave and the master was off the hook, no punishment. 

 

~

 

Kind Of Like If An Injured American Soldier Dies Off The Job Site

Then His Owner The U.S. Government

Is Off The Hook, No Help For

The Wife And

Kids?

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Thank you for your responses :)

 

Bonky, good points. You came up with a good apologetic for why the slave master wouldn't have been punished if the slave didn't die right away after corporal discipline. Some slaves probably were really unruly and even criminalistic, although I wouldn't of course say this for all of them. I believe this is why God allowed corporal punishment as a form of discipline, and God even states (to paraphrase) in Proverbs that "Sparing the rod will spoil even a child."

 

Parents are even advised to use corporal discipline with their own children. I agree with you that the slave most likely would have died right away had death been the intent. However, I also believe that the rod should be used a in limited, humane way, and not as a means of carnal anger or cruelty. A child should be clearly told why they are being punished as well, and it should not be a beating for beating's sake. I believe a stinging swat or two is sufficient for a child. 

 

Your point is getting me thinking. Perhaps the slave violently confronted the master for trying to discipline him, and the master defended himself, with the slave being more hurt than intended. Maybe the slave had an unknown medical condition that would have caused him to get more hurt from being hit than usual, and may have died a few days later from it. Perhaps he gained a cut that got infected, and he died from that, rather than from the punishment itself. I am not sure of God's thinking here, and this is a difficult passage in which I am speculating on. If anyone has any other ideas, please feel free to provide them! I also believe that these laws were guidelines for things that were generally true, rather than absolutely true.

 

This is because even Jewish judges were set up to examine the evidence before conviction. Like "atheist" stated earlier concerning Deuteronomy 22:23-24, "Are you kidding me? Do you seriously mean to tell me that there has never, in the course of human history, been a woman who was raped who was too scared to call for help?" A Jewish woman under examination could have claimed this as the case, and it would be up to the Jewish judges to determine the truthfulness of her claim. If this law was meant to be absolute, then there would be little need for Jewish judges, as no unique circumstances could ever be considered in someone's defense. If the woman was determined to be truthful, then I do NOT believe she would have been punished. 

 

Therefore, even the Jewish judges had to do analysis of the situation before conviction, although God's laws would generally still be true (like the woman in Deuteronomy 22:23-24 who would most likely NOT be a rape victim, but rather a fornicator). In line with this thought, I believe even the Jewish judges were required by God to make sure there was no wrongdoing on part of the master concerning his slave. I believe it would be generally true that the master had no intent to cause permanent harm to his slave if the slave died a few days later.

 

In support of this concept, I cite Exodus 21:16, "And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake," as an example. This form of bodily harm is PERMANENT, and manumission was REQUIRED in this case! Therefore, God DID care whether a slave was irreversibly harmed by his master! Therefore, Exodus 21:20 CANNOT mean that God didn't care that the slave was beat so bad he suffered great damage! Notice that Exodus 21:20 is only a few verses apart from Exodus 21:16, so the overall context definitely supports my assessment! Exodus 21:20 was meant to be considered with Exodus 21:16 in mind! 

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The only apologetics that can explain rape and slavery in the bible is that God is perfect, therefore anytihng he does is perfect.  This includes committing, ordering, or condoning slavery, rape, incest, eugenics, genocide etc.    You can put any spin on it you want, but in the end if God did it, it is not immoral, and we should stop apologizing for it (note the difference between apologizing and apologetics).

Edited by jerryR34
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The only apologetics that can explain rape and slavery in the bible is that God is perfect, therefore anytihng he does is perfect.  This includes committing, ordering, or condoning slavery, rape, incest, eugenics, genocide etc.    You can put any spin on it you want, but in the end if God did it, it is not immoral, and we should stop apologizing for it (note the difference between apologizing and apologetics).

That is nonsense.

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The only apologetics that can explain rape and slavery in the bible is that God is perfect, therefore anytihng he does is perfect.  This includes committing, ordering, or condoning slavery, rape, incest, eugenics, genocide etc.    You can put any spin on it you want, but in the end if God did it, it is not immoral, and we should stop apologizing for it (note the difference between apologizing and apologetics).

That is nonsense.

 

Where did I go wrong? 

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Why water down the faith?  God has never done anything wrong.  I think it is terribly presumptuous of us to try to explain his actions.  We should say God is perfect - end of discussion.  Stringing people along with contrived explanations makes for a weak-faithed congregation.

Edited by jerryR34
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....The only apologetics that can explain rape and slavery in the bible....

 

~

 

With No Apology To The LORD Jesus

 

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,

 

and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Genesis 6:5

 

For The Truth Of Our Deceits

 

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways,

 

and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:9-10

 

~

 

Forgive Us

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

For We Have Sinned

 

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

 

And Come Short Of The Glory Of God

 

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

And We Love You And We Bless Your Holy Name

 

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1

 

Our LORD And Our

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

God

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

 

~

 

Where did I go wrong? 

 

~

 

Believe

 

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights,

 

with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:16-17

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

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Genocide, slavery, rape...what's the problem?  God said it's ok.  King David had a man killed so he could take his wife.  Elijah cursed a bunch of kids for making fun of his baldness and a couple bears killed them.  Who are we to question God?  The bible is either the inspired word of God or it isn't.  Who are we to pick and choose?  What's next?  Are we going to put God on trial and judge him?  If the bible says to have your child stoned, then that is God's will.  We also just have to remember that we have to follow the laws of the land and obey authority as the authority is God given.  That is why the Jews could not stone the adulterer woman because they were under Roman law.  That is why they had to get Rome to kill Jesus.  They believed in God's law but at that time were under Roman law.

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Genocide, slavery, rape...what's the problem?  God said it's ok.  King David had a man killed so he could take his wife.  Elijah cursed a bunch of kids for making fun of his baldness and a couple bears killed them.  Who are we to question God?  The bible is either the inspired word of God or it isn't.  Who are we to pick and choose?  What's next?  Are we going to put God on trial and judge him?  If the bible says to have your child stoned, then that is God's will.  We also just have to remember that we have to follow the laws of the land and obey authority as the authority is God given.  That is why the Jews could not stone the adulterer woman because they were under Roman law.  That is why they had to get Rome to kill Jesus.  They believed in God's law but at that time were under Roman law.

 

 

You are confusing what people do, which God calls sin, with God who does not condone any sort of brutality, rape, murder, bestiality etc etc.  The 10 commandments will quickly back that up.  As far as what you

are callling genocide, study the culture of those peoples the Israelites waged war with and you will find a bestial and cruel people who sacrificed children and basically worshipped the devil even though they

may not have called him the devil as do we today.

 

I don't see where God said 'well done to Elijah' so perhaps curses actually do work?  King David was judged by God for his sin and his life was never the same.  God never condoned what David did but rather

exposed his sin through the prophet and judgement quickly followed...his infant son died.  Sin kills and sin separates us from God.

 

Rape is not condoned by God and neither is the list above you have contrived.

 

We are allowed to question God....humankind has created dictatorships wherein questions are not allowed.  You have somehow a very skewed idea of God and the Bible.  

 

The woman caught in adultery (where was the man...it takes two) was left at Jesus feet because of what Jesus said.  Read the story again.  

 

The God you describe is not found in the Bible. 

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Why water down the faith?  God has never done anything wrong.  I think it is terribly presumptuous of us to try to explain his actions.  We should say God is perfect - end of discussion.  Stringing people along with contrived explanations makes for a weak-faithed congregation.

 

 

The problem is that your description of God is false.  

 

God is holy and therefore His perfection is holy.

 

God's actions are actually already well explained.  In...the...Bible.  It's all there.

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Well, I don't need to defend or God.  If he told Satan to kill Job's children or if God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul that was his choice.  God's foolishness is better than man's wisdom.  1 Corinthians 1:25  God is above our questioning.

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how do you feel about misrepresenting Him?

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The only apologetics that can explain rape and slavery in the bible is that God is perfect, therefore anytihng he does is perfect.  This includes committing, ordering, or condoning slavery, rape, incest, eugenics, genocide etc.    You can put any spin on it you want, but in the end if God did it, it is not immoral, and we should stop apologizing for it (note the difference between apologizing and apologetics).

 

 

Why water down the faith?  God has never done anything wrong.  I think it is terribly presumptuous of us to try to explain his actions.  We should say God is perfect - end of discussion.  Stringing people along with contrived explanations makes for a weak-faithed congregation.

 

 

Well, I don't need to defend or God.  If he told Satan to kill Job's children or if God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul that was his choice.  God's foolishness is better than man's wisdom.  1 Corinthians 1:25  God is above our questioning.

 

 

Genocide, slavery, rape...what's the problem?  God said it's ok.  King David had a man killed so he could take his wife.  Elijah cursed a bunch of kids for making fun of his baldness and a couple bears killed them.  Who are we to question God?  The bible is either the inspired word of God or it isn't.  Who are we to pick and choose?  What's next?  Are we going to put God on trial and judge him?  If the bible says to have your child stoned, then that is God's will.  We also just have to remember that we have to follow the laws of the land and obey authority as the authority is God given.  That is why the Jews could not stone the adulterer woman because they were under Roman law.  That is why they had to get Rome to kill Jesus.  They believed in God's law but at that time were under Roman law.

 

This attitude seems right to hyper-Calvinists, Muslims, fatalistic pagans, or even atheists looking to misrepresent God; however, I will argue it is actually contrary to the Word of God using Biblical evidence. This line of reasoning could be used to defend anything, including Islam, Paganism, or even Satanism. God indeed wants you to test Him, although in a righteous way and with an honest mind. The truth is falsifiable, and unlike what many Christians claim, I assert that the Bible, in order for it to be true, is falsifiable and must withstand the test of close and honest scrutiny. A Christian believing based off nothing could just as easily abandon the faith and believe something else instead for no good reason; their faith isn't based off real truth and is actually quite shaky rather than solid, contrary to popular belief. 
 
The truth is falsifiable because the truth makes absolute claims that are limited in scope and definition. Two contradictory claims cannot be true. For instance, "2 + 2" (when dealing with non-complex numbers at least - look up "imaginary numbers" in math if you are curious) always = "4." It cannot equal any other number, nor can it be "4" or "6" simultaneously. Therefore, the truth is absolute and if a true contradiction exists, then at least one of the claims must be a lie.
 
However, I also believe that many things can seem like contradictions on the surface, but are not really lies because an important exception can determine the true meaning, in addition to considering the surrounding circumstances of a particular claim. I believe this about so-called contradictions in the Bible: they are eliminated with either a reasonable exception or closely examining the surrounding context, including the tone and tenor of the Bible as a whole, to determine a complementary meaning, rather than a real contradiction between two passages.
 
Therefore, it is NOT a sin to scrutinize closely the claims of the Holy Bible or even to question God in certain instances. The integrity of doctrinal understanding of the both the Bible and of who is God requires it. There were instances in the Bible with those who questioned God, and they were answered favorably. For instance, Abraham and Moses were answered favorably, and even Job and Jonah were vindicated and forgiven by God.
 
To forbid trying to understand some basic things about God could actually undermine the faith of Christians rather than strengthen it. Also, the Bible wants Christians to know their Bibles and be able to defend their faith against the unbelievers. The ignorance of Christians today is why the world is in the state it is in today! You will not only strengthen and build your own faith in the written Word, but help convert others with open, honest minds to Christianity!
 
The character of God can be tested with His own Word, if He meets His own standards of Holiness! God invites others to reason with Him, knowing He will win, because He is consistent and would never lie or contradict Himself! He does NOT fear honest scrutiny or examination!
 
Let me provide some quotes from the Bible supporting my position:
 
John 10:37
"If I [Jesus] do not the works of my Father, believe me not."
 
Acts 17:11
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
 
1 Peter 3:15
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"
 
2 Timothy 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
 
Isaiah 1:18

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

 

1 Corinthians 2:15 
"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."
 
1 Thessalonians 5:21
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
 
Proverbs 25:2
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
 
Micah 6:3
"O my people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? testify against me."
 
Isaiah 41:21
"Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob."
 
Isaiah 43:26
"Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified."
 
Isaiah 41:1
"Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment."
 
 
 
-------------------------------------------
 
 
"Reasoning With God"

http://bridgetwillard.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/reasoning-with-god/

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Well, I don't need to defend or God.  If he told Satan to kill Job's children or if God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul that was his choice.  God's foolishness is better than man's wisdom.  1 Corinthians 1:25  God is above our questioning.

 

If only I had a dollar for every time I've seen 1 Cor 1:25 misquoted to justify some or other contradictory notion about God...

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Well, I don't need to defend or God.  If he told Satan to kill Job's children or if God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul that was his choice.  God's foolishness is better than man's wisdom.  1 Corinthians 1:25  God is above our questioning.

That is a complete mishandling of that text.   That verse is talking about the foolishness of preaching the Gospel.  You are completely misrepresenting God and the Scriptures.

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You are confusing what people do, which God calls sin, with God who does not condone any sort of brutality, rape, murder, bestiality etc etc.  The 10 commandments will quickly back that up.  As far as what you

are callling genocide, study the culture of those peoples the Israelites waged war with and you will find a bestial and cruel people who sacrificed children and basically worshipped the devil even though they

may not have called him the devil as do we today.

 

 

Can you cite research that shows that these nations were people who worshiped the devil and were involved in beastiality etc?  I've heard similar claims in the past but I haven't seen it backed up with data.   Let's assume for a moment that this is true, are we saying it's ok to kill children and force young women into marriages by their captors so long as the parents are wicked?  

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I'm a history/archeology buff and there is plenty of research.

 

You can even just google it.

 

Gee...we've come such a long way and we are so civilized now.

 

abortion is what?  killing infants?   

 

Sin is inherent in the human race and the offspring are just as wicked as the parents in God's eyes.  I'm not saying what you are saying.

 

People commit henious acts today and bestiality has not been eradicated...do you think the human race has declined ?

 

Here's a 'teaser' about Canaanite  religion:

 

The antiquity of the worship of the god or gods of Baal extends back to the 14th century BCE among the ancient Semitic peoples, the descendants of Shem, the oldest son of Biblical Noah. Semitic is more of a linguistic classification than a racial one. Thus, people speaking the same or similar languages first worshiped Baal in his many forms. The word Baal means "master" or "owner". In ancient religions the name denoted sun, lord or god. Baal was common a name of small Syrian and Persian deities. Baal is still principally thought of as a Canaanite fertility deity. The Great Baal was of Canaan. He was the son of El, the high god of Canaan. The cult of Baal celebrated annually his death and resurrection as a part of the Canaanite fertility rituals. These ceremonies often included human sacrifice and temple prostitution.

Baal, literal meaning is "lord," in the Canaanite pantheon was the local title of fertility gods. Baal never emerged as a rain god until later times when he assumed the special functions of each. Although there is no equivalent in Canaan of the sterile summer drought that occurs in Mesopotamia, the season cycle was marked enough to have caused a concentration on the disappearing fertility god, who took with him the autumn rain clouds into the neither world.

 

and another:

 

What are we to make of these disagreements amongst scholars?  Most scholars today, including Day, agree on at least several points: there was a cult of child sacrifice in ancient Israel, and that this practice is of Canaanite origin; that this type of sacrifice, contra some older scholarship, does indeed refer to the practice of actually sacrificing children, and not simply of dedicating them to a deity

 

It would be harder to prove that child sacrifice and temple prostitution and hundreds of gods did not exist as there are reams of things written that fully describe the research and

digs that have been created in support of the biblical account.  

 

You can buy books at Amazon or just research online.

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I'm a history/archeology buff and there is plenty of research.

 

You can even just google it.

 

Gee...we've come such a long way and we are so civilized now.

 

abortion is what?  killing infants?   

 

Sin is inherent in the human race and the offspring are just as wicked as the parents in God's eyes.  I'm not saying what you are saying.

 

People commit henious acts today and bestiality has not been eradicated...do you think the human race has declined ?

 

Here's a 'teaser' about Canaanite  religion:

 

The antiquity of the worship of the god or gods of Baal extends back to the 14th century BCE among the ancient Semitic peoples, the descendants of Shem, the oldest son of Biblical Noah. Semitic is more of a linguistic classification than a racial one. Thus, people speaking the same or similar languages first worshiped Baal in his many forms. The word Baal means "master" or "owner". In ancient religions the name denoted sun, lord or god. Baal was common a name of small Syrian and Persian deities. Baal is still principally thought of as a Canaanite fertility deity. The Great Baal was of Canaan. He was the son of El, the high god of Canaan. The cult of Baal celebrated annually his death and resurrection as a part of the Canaanite fertility rituals. These ceremonies often included human sacrifice and temple prostitution.

Baal, literal meaning is "lord," in the Canaanite pantheon was the local title of fertility gods. Baal never emerged as a rain god until later times when he assumed the special functions of each. Although there is no equivalent in Canaan of the sterile summer drought that occurs in Mesopotamia, the season cycle was marked enough to have caused a concentration on the disappearing fertility god, who took with him the autumn rain clouds into the neither world.

 

and another:

 

What are we to make of these disagreements amongst scholars?  Most scholars today, including Day, agree on at least several points: there was a cult of child sacrifice in ancient Israel, and that this practice is of Canaanite origin; that this type of sacrifice, contra some older scholarship, does indeed refer to the practice of actually sacrificing children, and not simply of dedicating them to a deity

 

It would be harder to prove that child sacrifice and temple prostitution and hundreds of gods did not exist as there are reams of things written that fully describe the research and

digs that have been created in support of the biblical account.  

 

You can buy books at Amazon or just research online.

 

 

The passages I was referring to involve the Midianites [Numbers chapter 31], the Bible doesn't seem to even hint that the slaughter had anything to do with child sacrifice.  Wouldn't it be the ultimate irony to deal with child sacrifice...by killing children?

 

Baal was seen as the main competitor god to YHWH, there were times when the Israelite men were seduced into worshiping this god if I'm not mistaken.  You mention that the sins of the parents can trickle down to the children so to speak, I would have thought that meant that what the parents "sow"....the children sometimes "reap".   I'm still not clear on why it would be seen as acceptable to murder children and force young women into marriages they more than like wouldn't want to be a part of [their family was just destroyed].  

 

The other irony is see is, didn't YHWH ultimately show that he was indeed ok with human sacrifice?   I mean once a god shows approval of one human sacrifice, does the body count really matter that much?  

Edited by Bonky
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LOL!  ok....will address the Midianites when I have more time...I'm posting on the run here...and yes, the Israelites were entangling themselves with different nites regularly

 

where did God say He was ok with human sacrifice...?  if you are wishing to address such things, references would be helpful...thanks

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LOL!  ok....will address the Midianites when I have more time...I'm posting on the run here...and yes, the Israelites were entangling themselves with different nites regularly

 

where did God say He was ok with human sacrifice...?  if you are wishing to address such things, references would be helpful...thanks

 

Ok I thought Jesus was considered the ultimate/perfect sacrifice.  God required that Jesus die for the sins of mankind so it seems he was ok with human sacrifice in at least one context.

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LOL!  ok....will address the Midianites when I have more time...I'm posting on the run here...and yes, the Israelites were entangling themselves with different nites regularly

 

where did God say He was ok with human sacrifice...?  if you are wishing to address such things, references would be helpful...thanks

 

Ok I thought Jesus was considered the ultimate/perfect sacrifice.  God required that Jesus die for the sins of mankind so it seems he was ok with human sacrifice in at least one context.

 

 

 

Except that Jesus was both God and man...yeah, except for that one little fact

 

Why do I start to get the feeling you may think you are being clever?  Please don't take that as an insult....but it does appear to me you may believe that you had me on something...

 

of course maybe I'm being overly sensitive?  itwasntme_20.png

 

we can exercise some in depth study on the topic of Christ being the only sacrifice acceptable to God but that is a deep and wide subject...takes the entire Bible to really grasp it

unless one simply wants to accept by faith that Christ died for their sins and rose again from the dead 

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Except that Jesus was both God and man...yeah, except for that one little fact

 

Why do I start to get the feeling you may think you are being clever?  Please don't take that as an insult....but it does appear to me you may believe that you had me on something...

 

of course maybe I'm being overly sensitive?  itwasntme_20.png

 

we can exercise some in depth study on the topic of Christ being the only sacrifice acceptable to God but that is a deep and wide subject...takes the entire Bible to really grasp it

unless one simply wants to accept by faith that Christ died for their sins and rose again from the dead 

 

 

We got sidetracked with human sacrifice but my original response to your comments still stand in my mind.   It sounded like you were wanting to distance "God" away from the fact that according to the bible it was YHWH that told Moses to command the Israelites to commit genocide.   They then took the young women and forced them into marriage or servanthood.  This isn't being projected onto YHWH, it's the Bible telling us that YHWH did indeed request this.   

 

So your claim was that God doesn't even condone brutality, murder etc and the only way I can see to suggest this is to redefine what those words mean.  The Bible clearly states that slavery was acceptable.  The old testament had some regulations around it and in the new testament, Jesus could have easily spoken against it but never did.  In fact, in Ephesians chapter 6 it commands slaves to obey their masters.  

 

So yes I'm still puzzled as to how someone can say God isn't ok with any sort of brutality....obviously in some contexts...he absolutely is.

Edited by Bonky
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no...

 

Why would I distance God from what He says or says to do or the OT record?

 

You call in genocide...yet the Bible is clear as to why God commanded the people in the 'Promised Land' were to be dealt with in a severe manner.

 

Let's look at that:

 

In1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" God ordered similar things when the Israelites were invading the promised land (Deuteronomy 2:34;3:6;20:16-18). Why would God have the Israelites exterminate an entire group of people, women and children included?
 

Even infants AND women were not to be spared.

 

and regarding the Canaanites:

 

In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18). The Israelites failed in this mission as well, and exactly what God said would happen occurred (Judges 2:1-3;1 Kings 11:5;14:24;2 Kings 16:3-4). God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but rather to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.

 

Probably the most difficult part of these commands from God is that God ordered the death of children and infants as well. Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5;58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents. (3) By ending their lives as children, God enabled them to have entrance into Heaven. We strongly believe that all children who die are accepted into Heaven by the grace and mercy of God (2 Samuel 12:22-23;Mark 10:14-15;Matthew 18:2-4).

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanites-extermination.html#ixzz34LDJivAU

 

Further, this is also true:

 

First, just as a beginning, it should be noted that the Israelites were not always commanded to annihilate all their enemies, only certain ones. The reasons will be suggested below.

Second, if there is plenty of evidence that the Bible is God’s Word, and there is, then for finite man to deny the Bible because he doesn’t like something or does not understand the reasons for some of what it teaches, is nothing short of arrogant rebellion against an infinite God who has revealed Himself. For evidence that the Bible is God’s Word, may I suggest Josh McDowell’s books, Evidence that Demands a Verdict and More Evidence that Demands A Verdict.

More on that here

 

And the following is also explanatory

 

(
)--"And the Lord our God delivered him over to us; and we defeated him with his sons and all his people. 34So we captured all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor."

The command by God to kill all inside a city is seen by many to be immoral and a demonstration that the Bible is not true. But, we must examine the issue in light of its context--its biblical context--not in light of present-day, non-Christian assumptions. If we want to see if it is moral or not, we must know which morals are in question.

Rest of the article here

 

Why are you thinking that God commanded people to have slaves, rape women or any other sort of act that we supposedly find ungodly today?

 

Doesn't it occur to you that we have law enforcement and all kinds of laws to deal with the very things you appear to find God guilty of approving?

 

The human slave market is probaly bigger then ever, wife and child abuse is rampant (with the occaisonal abused husband), murder, rape and theft are cross cultural acts of defiance of God's commands.

 

Really, you seem to know something about the Bible, but very little of God's character or what He does and does not approve of.

 

God does not condone sin and all those who continue in sin and defiance against God, those who rebel against Him, are under judgement just like the nations God commanded the Israelites to destroy.

 

 

The Bible NEVER states that slavery is or was acceptable.  Who invented slavery?  God?  No.  People.  People invented slavery.

 

The Bible deals with society as it was and slaves were a fact.  There are quite a number of things in scripture that were culturally different but be aware that such things exist today as I already said

and God did not institute them nor does He agree with them.

 

People commit sin.  Your information is sketchy at best and just plain wrong at worst.

 

I am going to leave this conversation as I don't think you are making any effort to acknoweldge my responses; you seem to just keep bringing up the same objections.

 

I believe I have supplied some good links for you to click on and avail yourself of better knowledge concerning what the Bible says regarding your questions.  If you are truly interested,

if you are sincere in your approach, these articles will help you.

 

That's it for now.

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Except that Jesus was both God and man...yeah, except for that one little fact

 

Why do I start to get the feeling you may think you are being clever?  Please don't take that as an insult....but it does appear to me you may believe that you had me on something...

 

of course maybe I'm being overly sensitive?  itwasntme_20.png

 

we can exercise some in depth study on the topic of Christ being the only sacrifice acceptable to God but that is a deep and wide subject...takes the entire Bible to really grasp it

unless one simply wants to accept by faith that Christ died for their sins and rose again from the dead

 

We got sidetracked with human sacrifice but my original response to your comments still stand in my mind.   It sounded like you were wanting to distance "God" away from the fact that according to the bible it was YHWH that told Moses to command the Israelites to commit genocide.   They then took the young women and forced them into marriage or servanthood.  This isn't being projected onto YHWH, it's the Bible telling us that YHWH did indeed request this.   

 

So your claim was that God doesn't even condone brutality, murder etc and the only way I can see to suggest this is to redefine what those words mean.  The Bible clearly states that slavery was acceptable.  The old testament had some regulations around it and in the new testament, Jesus could have easily spoken against it but never did.  In fact, in Ephesians chapter 6 it commands slaves to obey their masters.  

 

So yes I'm still puzzled as to how someone can say God isn't ok with any sort of brutality....obviously in some contexts...he absolutely is.

When we try to place God in a judgement chair using our limited understanding

we find ourselves in a place where Lucifer was in error as well... God alone see's

the heart of people- an in this sight through foreknowledge God moves and performs

His Perfect Will....

Your foundation(ed) error is that sins presence is the result of God's Will and it

simply cannot be by God's Own claim-

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count

slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should

perish, but that all should come to repentance

KJV

YET

2 Peter 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,

speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly

perish in their own corruption;

KJV

Love, Steven

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