Jump to content

christian forums

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Forums

Welcome to Worthy Christian Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

What does this passage tell us about Jesus fulfilling the Old Law?

* * * * * 1 votes

  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1
jerryR34

jerryR34

    Veteran Member

  • Nonbeliever
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon, USA
Matthew 15:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 

 

Seems like God wants us to keep the Deuteronomy laws. What say you? 


  • 2

#2
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,489 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Israel Advocacy Bible Study, Apologetics, Theology, Camping, Hiking, Fishing, Birdwatching, BBQing

 

Matthew 15:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 

 

Seems like God wants us to keep the Deuteronomy laws. What say you? 

 

He was actually addressing Pharisaical hypocrisy.

 

Actually honoring your parents is a NT commandment as well. 


  • 2

#3
jerryR34

jerryR34

    Veteran Member

  • Nonbeliever
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon, USA

 

 

Matthew 15:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 

 

Seems like God wants us to keep the Deuteronomy laws. What say you? 

 

He was actually addressing Pharisaical hypocrisy.

 

Actually honoring your parents is a NT commandment as well. 

 

So, what is the punishment if you disobey your parents?


  • 2

#4
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,489 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Israel Advocacy Bible Study, Apologetics, Theology, Camping, Hiking, Fishing, Birdwatching, BBQing

 

 

 

Matthew 15:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 

 

Seems like God wants us to keep the Deuteronomy laws. What say you? 

 

He was actually addressing Pharisaical hypocrisy.

 

Actually honoring your parents is a NT commandment as well. 

 

So, what is the punishment if you disobey your parents?

 

I guess you go to bed without your supper.


  • 6

#5
charlesj

charlesj
  • Members
  • 83 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Antonio, Tx
  • Interests:I love to study the Bible. My other interests are camping on the beach in my trailer with my wife, fishing in the Gulf of Mexico. I also like to shoot my pistols once or twice a month.

 

Matthew 15:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 

 

Seems like God wants us to keep the Deuteronomy laws. What say you? 

 

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law.  He was born under the Mosaic Law, kept it, and fulfilled it.  Christians are under the Law of Christ. (1Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2)

Jesus and the apostles lived in the "last days" of the Mosaic Law.  All of the N.T. books were written before 70 A.D. and the writers, many times, referred to their time as "the last day, the last hour."  (Many today see "last days" and think it is referring to our time, 2100 years later.)

Jesus spoke of the age He lived in and then an age to come.  He made a statement about blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Jesus said that those that blasphemed the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in "this age' (the O.T. age He lived in.) or the age to come (N.T. age).  

Your servant in Christ

charlesj

 

p.s. Majority will disagree with me on The Book of Revelation being written before 70 A.D., but this is another subject and I won't comment at this time. 

(See writers such as Kenneth Gentry, Jim McGuiggan, Richard Rogers on their books on Revelation.)


Edited by charlesj, 09 June 2014 - 04:37 PM.

  • 1

#6
Willamina

Willamina

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,969 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Pacific Northwest USA
  • Interests:Birdwatching, Bible study
The people in the gospels were still under the law. Our Meshiach had not yet fulfilled the law perfectly and died in our place. Nor had He arisin and sent Their Holy Spirit to us. He came to fulfill the requirements of all the law, something we are not able to do. On the cross He said "it is finished".. He had done in His life all that He was sent to do. He had revealed His Father to us as He did nothing but what His Father told Him to do and say.. Now the rest was to be accomplished by His death and resurrection.
He was also the mediator of the new covenant of grace by His death and the shedding of blood. Hebrews 9:13-15

By the Holy Spirit we receive a heart of flesh, and the law is written on our hearts. We fulfill it by loving God with all our hearts, receiving His Son Yeshua HaMeshiach, and by loving others, especially other christians. We now live under the law of love. So I would do what is loving toward my parents and honor them in that way. We took care of them to the best of our ability and honored their wishes to die at home. It was much harder to do that to hubby's parents because they were abusive, but we tried. They hated Christians and always criticised what we did for them. But we continued to try to give them honor, respect and kindness.

Galatians 3:10-14 explains that those who don't keep the law perfectly are under a curse. But the just shall live by faith. Then Meshiach redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us so that Gentiles too can receive the promise of the Spirit by faith.
So we are now justified by faith apart from the works of the law, as was Abraham. Romans 3:28 Read Romans chapters 3 & 4.

Father God, please open my neighbors heart and eyes to the blessing of Your grace, Your undeserved favor. Help him to understand that being imperfect is sin and that he cannot go to heaven by keeping the law, [or even live the christian life that way] ,and that all of the old testament saints trusted in Your grace through faith.. Please give him a new heart and write Your Law on his heart so that he can live the law of love. Please pour out Your Spirit on him even as You did on the disciples at Pentacost, and as you did on Saul of Tarsus. Please reveal Yourself to him, Yeshua, as he seeks Your truth, and bless him abundantly. Amen

PS. If we love God and man we will love and honor our parents. But that might not mean to obey them if they are asking you to not follow God through His Son. We love Him first.
  • 1

#7
jerryR34

jerryR34

    Veteran Member

  • Nonbeliever
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon, USA

The people in the gospels were still under the law.

So, if  a child disobeyed/disrespted his or here parents it would be ok if they were stoned to death?  When did it become ok not to do that?


  • 2

#8
jerryR34

jerryR34

    Veteran Member

  • Nonbeliever
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon, USA

 

 

 

 

Matthew 15:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 

 

Seems like God wants us to keep the Deuteronomy laws. What say you? 

 

He was actually addressing Pharisaical hypocrisy.

 

Actually honoring your parents is a NT commandment as well. 

 

So, what is the punishment if you disobey your parents?

 

I guess you go to bed without your supper.

 

Beats the heck out of getting rocks tossed at you till you're dead I guess...I'm sure many children at that time may have gone to bed hungry anyway...


  • 2

#9
jerryR34

jerryR34

    Veteran Member

  • Nonbeliever
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon, USA

 

 

Matthew 15:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 

 

Seems like God wants us to keep the Deuteronomy laws. What say you? 

 

He was actually addressing Pharisaical hypocrisy.

 

Actually honoring your parents is a NT commandment as well. 

 

Matthew 15

New Living Translation (NLT)

Jesus Teaches about Inner Purity

15 Some Pharisees and teachers of religious law now arrived from Jerusalem to see Jesus. They asked him, “Why do your disciples disobey our age-old tradition? For they ignore our tradition of ceremonial hand washing before they eat.”

 

 

 

So, was Jesus saying they were wrong for not following the OT or was he saying they were right for disobeying an age-old tradition?  Which tradition was ok to dishonor and which on was not?

 

 

Matthew 15:3-7

King James Version (KJV)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 

 

Seems like God wants us to keep the Deuteronomy laws. What say you? 

 

He was actually addressing Pharisaical hypocrisy.

 

Actually honoring your parents is a NT commandment as well. 

Where was that mentioned in the NT?  What parts of the OT do we throw away and which ones do we keep.  Seems to me this passage was saying we should keep the hand washing tradition as well as stoning disobedient children...


Edited by jerryR34, 09 June 2014 - 05:29 PM.

  • 2

#10
shiloh357

shiloh357

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,489 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Israel Advocacy Bible Study, Apologetics, Theology, Camping, Hiking, Fishing, Birdwatching, BBQing

The pharisees had a tradition called "corban" that allowed them to dedicate property to the Lord, fully consecrating it to His use.   Jesus was condemning the pharisees for misusing that tradition to absolve themselves from helping their parents when they were in need.  If their parents needed something the pharisee could just tell his parents that what they needed from him could not be supplied because it was "corban."   That way they could keep their wealth to themselves and not have to share it to help their parents.

 

They were using their  "corban" tradition to circumvent the law, while condemning others as law breakers. 

 

Where was that mentioned in the NT?

 

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise), "that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land." (Eph 6:1-3)
 

Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. (Col 3:20)
 


  • 1

#11
coheir

coheir

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,249 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tn
  • Interests:Hunt, Fish, shoot pool, snooker read kjv read Worthy

 

The people in the gospels were still under the law.

So, if  a child disobeyed/disrespted his or here parents it would be ok if they were stoned to death?  When did it become ok not to do that?

 

God chose Israel as a special people. He showed them a special way to live apart from non believers. As a

child grows up he may see these things in his life;

Prov 22:15

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Prov 20:11

Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

Prov 23:

13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. 
Prov 29:15
The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
Prov 6:20
My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Prov 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
 
If this fails and he grows up to be a man then
Deu 21
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 
verse 18 is speaking of a grown son
 
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 
verse 19-20 explain the grown childs actions ( certainly not God-like actions )
 
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
verse 21 is living up to being a special people called by God to put away evil away from them, even if it is your son or daughter.
So first it is God and second it is your child any other order is wrong. It appears they were not stoning children as your post implies. This was a child that had grown up and still wanted a sinful life so they being called by God had to put sin away or out of their life. This child you speak of may have had 20 or more years to comply with his/her parents and God.
 

  • 4

#12
Willamina

Willamina

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,969 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Pacific Northwest USA
  • Interests:Birdwatching, Bible study
The law shows us right from wrong. But when we put our faith in Christ we are freed from the curse of the Law, which is death. My prior post quotes the scriptures in Galatians.
I was still bound to honor my parents wishes while living at home. When I married I passed that subordination on to my husband, but honored my parents and cared for them in other ways.
  • 2

#13
FresnoJoe

FresnoJoe

    Royal Member

  • Worthy Watchman
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42,456 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Elgin, Illinois, USA
  • Interests:The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 - - - Love, Your Brother Joe
....Seems like God wants us to keep the....law....

 

~

 

It

 

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:26-28

 

Seems

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

Like God

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

Wants Us

 

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6


  • 0

#14
Hawkins

Hawkins

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 281 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hong Kong

 

The people in the gospels were still under the law.

So, if  a child disobeyed/disrespted his or here parents it would be ok if they were stoned to death?  When did it become ok not to do that?

 

 

Some law has no practical values, they are rather a serious measure for education. First, it's not up to the father to do the execution. He may hand over his son to a group of law keepers though, more like a council or court. It doesn't seem that such a council will do such a kind of execution. It doesn't seem that a father will hand over his son for such an execution in the first place. 

 

 

On the other hand, from a design perspective. I speculate that such a law has the effect of filtering out those wicked. That is to say, those who finally see hell will make use of this as an excuse to fight God, then to see their doom. So be warned!


  • 1

#15
jerryR34

jerryR34

    Veteran Member

  • Nonbeliever
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon, USA

 

 

The people in the gospels were still under the law.

So, if  a child disobeyed/disrespted his or here parents it would be ok if they were stoned to death?  When did it become ok not to do that?

 

 

Some law has no practical values, they are rather a serious measure for education

Can't argue with you there...stoning someone to death will definitely educate them for the rest of their life...


  • 2

#16
OneLight

OneLight

    Royal Member

  • Servant
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 26,107 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lebanon, New Hampshire
  • Interests:God, Family, Friends and Climbing

    I really enjoy discussing the Bible. There is so much to learn and so much to share.

    I am led to reach my hand out, in love, to those in need.
Have you considered Matthew 23:34-40?
 

But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."


  • 1

#17
Fraught

Fraught

    Senior Member

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,289 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:mid-atlantic u.s.a.

I always remember where to find the response to questions like this because the phrase "Oh, you foolish Galatians" always sticks in my mind.

 

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

 

Also, after a sect of the Pharisees began trying to have the gentile believers circumcised, Peter said this, as recorded in Acts 15:  10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear ? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."


  • 1

#18
kwikphilly

kwikphilly

    Royal Member

  • Royal Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,624 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:South Florida
  • Interests:My Heavenly Father,Jesus Christ,the Holy Spirit,the Bible,people,all Gods creatures(great,small & furry),from the sublime to the ridiculous,learning in general,artwork,animal trainer,cooking & eating,laughing

Blessings jerry

 

Can't argue with you there...stoning someone to death will definitely educate them for the rest of their life...                                                                    posted by jerryR34

:24: Really funny,you have a good sense of Humor!  All kidding aside,you are not too far off.....part of the reasoning behind very harsh punishment and/or death penalties was/is as an example for all to see that they would know what can happen to them if they dis-obey the law.

          In keeping the law & following their own traditions the Pharisees were all too often "going through the motions" for appearances,they criticized the Apostles for not washing their hands ...touching the bread with dirty hands dirties the  bread & then eating dirty bread defiles the man....      By Jesus telling them..........

 

Matthew 15:11

New International Version (NIV)

11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.

   The Pharisees were offended by this & being called......Hypocrites!       So even as you ask about these things....so did Peter & Jesus explained............

 

Matthew 15:17-20

New International Version (NIV)

17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.

       So,Jesus explained what was important & what isn't.......we are not under the Law,& Jesus said that f we love Him we will obey His commands & the greatest of these is LOVE.....

 

King James Bible
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself                                              Galatians 5:14

 

John 13:34-35

New International Version (NIV)

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    If we love ,we will keep all the commandments.......would you steal from someone if you love them,would you lie to someone if you love them,covet what they have,their wife,would you murder them ,commit adultery? Of course not!   it is all about faith,love,grace     

 

King James Bible
Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day         Duet 8:11

   No jerry,God does not expect us to keep the Laws set forth in Deuteronomy.......

 

I hope you didn't mind my little paraphrasing in between the verses of Scripture .....God Bless you & Peace be with You

                                                                                                                                                      With love-in Christ,Kwik


  • 1

#19
Trinitron

Trinitron

    Junior Member

  • Junior Member
  • PipPip
  • 118 posts
  • Gender:Male

jerryR34,

 

You are right.  Jesus said follow the law and kill your kids.  Your problem is that OT and NT law is beaten by obeying authority.  Kids, wives, and slaves must obey their parents, husbands, and masters as if they were God...but the free men must obey their rulers as if they were God...including their laws.

 

Edit:  That's why the Jews couldn't kill the adulteress or kill Jesus.


Edited by Trinitron, 04 July 2014 - 10:22 PM.

  • 1




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Worthy Christian Forums - Christian Message Boards - 1999-2014 part of the Worthy Network