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I believe this is an accurate assessment

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#1
Cross Reference

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The Atonement  is made effective only by the new birth. Anything short of that leaves the mere "grace centered Christian" to be judged by his works.



#2
FresnoJoe

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....leaves the mere "grace centered Christian" to be judged by his works....

 

:thumbsup:

 

For
 
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
 
By Grace
 
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Romans 10:17-18
 
Are We
 
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23
 
Saved
 
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
 
See?
 
Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16



#3
other one

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I think one needs to know what you mean by "new birth" and what that entails.  



#4
FresnoJoe

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I think one needs to know what you mean by "new birth" and what that entails.  

 

:thumbsup:

 

And Just What IS A Grace Centered Christian

 

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

Where is boasting then?

 

It is excluded.

 

By what law?

 

of works?

 

Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:23-28



#5
kwikphilly

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Blessings Cross....

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

    Amen                                                                                                                                    With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

Many say "I am saved" but it just may be a lot of lip service????Do they really have Faith?Do they really love Jesus?     That is between each man & God...........but let us not judge,lest we be judged...........



#6
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Blessings Cross....

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

    Amen                                                                                                                                    With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

Many say "I am saved" but it just may be a lot of lip service????Do they really have Faith?Do they really love Jesus?     That is between each man & God...........but let us not judge,lest we be judged...........

Indeed. I posted the thread from own experience. In my youth, several prophecies were spoken over me. Even though they were in "promise" form like: "Wait on the Lord and I say wait",  I expected God at some point in time, regardless of my "waiting " on Him, to just wave His "magic wand" and I woud be 'tranfigured'. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

 

I didn't know then what I  know now and have questioned why not since I did consider myself a born again Christian? Certainly it was me who failed in those years of presumption, however, being told I could never lose my salvation presumption only gave way to outright gross sinning since with no regard for spiritual consequences and I fell away to that as one you would believe never went to church __ and seldom did except from time  to time being invited I would go to see if there was anything different that might 'move me' to a more sincere repentance, if there was such a thing.. Never happened. Same ol' stuff that never worked.

 

I have often thought about this instance in my life I could give no account for until of late:

 

As a youth I sang, church, events, etc. One afternoon at a 1950 Jerry Owen evangelistic crusade, I sang a duet with him on his platform, "I Fell in Love with Jesus". At the alter call, myself and a young friend who later pioneered 5 churches, "assisted" others praying at the alter __[God's lil helpers] ____  With my tears and snot, I soaked my hankerchief until was of no longer of any use. I was 12 yrs old. When all was complete and i was back at the loge where my family was seated, my aunt said to me: "We couldn't figure out who was getting saved, you or the one you were praying for".

 

For all these many years that has haulted me to question, not God's hand upon me but, was I really born again? Had God save me but could not at that time give me His new life? I now know that to be true. He did chose me for His new life but much had to be destroyed in me for me to receive it; the penalty for stomping all over it was too great!  Because of what I 'see' the new birth to represent, I believe God  witheld it from me until I was 'able' to protect it with my life!! __which required of me to love Him for Who He is __ not for what I get out of the deal. Those tears I shed at that alter were tears of sorrow and pain I would soon bring upon myself for what was to come in my life that would push me to brink of reprobation.

 

In summary: God, indeed, has saved me and placed within me His new Life. Though the "scar tissue" remains, I know I have Christ Jesus as my Lord and He is taking Home. I am His.

 

I Love Him


Edited by Cross Reference, 15 June 2014 - 06:55 AM.


#7
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I think one needs to know what you mean by "new birth" and what that entails.  

I understand, other. Hope you will read my brief testimony and it helps you in some way to sort out the issues. . ;)



#8
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Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

 

Yes!! I am eating them with insight as i have never done before! I am born Again!!

 

Thank you for sharing . . :)


Edited by Cross Reference, 15 June 2014 - 07:10 AM.


#9
kwikphilly

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Blessings Cross

    Praise the Lord....I am sitting here crying like a little baby-lol      That is a beautiful testimony,I am sure you have many more,may you continue to be Blessed,to Bless :heart:

     And Jesus said,"If you love me,you will obey my commands"......You see,everyone tends to focus on the "commands"..."Oh,Love,that is the one".'Which commmands",'All His commands" etc......

    That's not it...............the most important Word in this verse is 'IF".......IF you love ME? We have to understand that even loving Jesus is not something we can do by ourselves,it is His Finished work on the cross that gives us the Power to LOVE,to Love Him without reservations,we surrender and we are filled with His Love                             IF we love Him,it is not possible we cannot obey Him      We are obedient because we are indwelled

     It is not that complicated really,all we need do is,,,,ASK!

                                                                                                                                                            With love-in Christ,Kwik



#10
Cross Reference

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Blessings Cross

    Praise the Lord....I am sitting here crying like a little baby-lol      That is a beautiful testimony,I am sure you have many more,may you continue to be Blessed,to Bless :heart:

     And Jesus said,"If you love me,you will obey my commands"......You see,everyone tends to focus on the "commands"..."Oh,Love,that is the one".'Which commmands",'All His commands" etc......

    That's not it...............the most important Word in this verse is 'IF".......IF you love ME? We have to understand that even loving Jesus is not something we can do by ourselves,it is His Finished work on the cross that gives us the Power to LOVE,to Love Him without reservations,we surrender and we are filled with His Love                             IF we love Him,it is not possible we cannot obey Him      We are obedient because we are indwelled

     It is not that complicated really,all we need do is,,,,ASK!

                                                                                                                                                            With love-in Christ,Kwik

Stay tender in Him, Sis

 

Sis, You might to consider that what God gives us is in promise form not unlike He gave the children of Israel before Jesus ever comes into the picture.  For them it was messiah. Here:

 

 "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:"
Deuteronomy 6:5-6 (KJV)

 

For us, this side of the cross, when we seek to live that commandment it reveals something to be Jesus as the reciprical of His Love and then the sky opens up! cf John 6:44


Edited by Cross Reference, 15 June 2014 - 07:57 AM.


#11
other one

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I think one needs to know what you mean by "new birth" and what that entails.  

I understand, other. Hope you will read my brief testimony and it helps you in some way to sort out the issues. . ;)

 

I read everything I could find, but the sites search of our posts doesn't always work.....   I'm still not sure what you mean by new birth and what it takes to have that happen...   also as Joe asks what you mean by "a grace centered Christian" and how they would be judged by thier works......    and if someone is something besides a Grace Centered Christian why they would not be judges by thier works...

 

I really don't know if I agree or disagree with you for I don't really understand what you mean.



#12
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I think one needs to know what you mean by "new birth" and what that entails.  

I understand, other. Hope you will read my brief testimony and it helps you in some way to sort out the issues. . ;)

 

I read everything I could find, but the sites search of our posts doesn't always work.....   I'm still not sure what you mean by new birth and what it takes to have that happen...   also as Joe asks what you mean by "a grace centered Christian" and how they would be judged by thier works......    and if someone is something besides a Grace Centered Christian why they would not be judges by thier works...

 

I really don't know if I agree or disagree with you for I don't really understand what you mean.

 

It has been a long day with family, other.  I do appreciate your questions. Tomorow, after a good nights rest, would be a much better time for me to reply. The post I was referring to is #6. Perhpas if you would review it and ponder my experience it might  make it easier for me to clarify my position should you still need it.

 

Thank you

 

Lov'in Jesus,


Edited by Cross Reference, 15 June 2014 - 06:25 PM.


#13
FresnoJoe

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Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

 

Yes!! I am eating them with insight as i have never done before! I am born Again!!

 

:emot-heartbeat:



#14
Cross Reference

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I think one needs to know what you mean by "new birth" and what that entails.  

I understand, other. Hope you will read my brief testimony and it helps you in some way to sort out the issues. . ;)

 

I read everything I could find, but the sites search of our posts doesn't always work.....   I'm still not sure what you mean by new birth and what it takes to have that happen...   also as Joe asks what you mean by "a grace centered Christian" and how they would be judged by thier works......    and if someone is something besides a Grace Centered Christian why they would not be judges by thier works...

 

I really don't know if I agree or disagree with you for I don't really understand what you mean.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

G'mornin' Brother other!

 

A “grace centered Christian” presumes upon his salvation to make be the all in all of his faith. It is not a faith in Jesus Christ and need not be in his thinking. In reality it is, “I have faith in my faith that I am saved”; my faith in God’s grace is the extant of my faith”.

1. For understanding, one must first see the fallacy of “arbitrary predestination” that strips one of any assurance of his salvation.

This persuasion came about partly by those of Luther’s followers mis-construing what he found for himself to be true concerning God’s grace, that it is a costly grace. It was a finding out of the truth from God’s word that rectified his thinking that might have begun a process of revitalization of the Church of Jesus Christ .

The “mis-construing” gave rise to a false grace; for believing a false/incomplete understanding of  the outcome of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. It was soon to become a doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” or OSAS with sins having been forgiven, past, present and future. While there is little difficulty with believing for the past and present forgiveness of sins, assuming repentance, forgiveness for future sins [is] presumed upon because of the ‘warped’ understanding, easy believe-ism ‘grace’, a spiritual product produced by Jesus that can be purchased by man with no price that seals him to eternal heavenly bliss __ but, strips him of incentive for knowing God in an intimate. Such a Christian now advances __ nothing __because there is nothing in him to advance. He is happy he is saved and believes Jesus wants him to be happy until he dies. Anything more than nullifies such grace and is looked upon as an anathema.
Consequently he doesn’t want to be disturbed by any further teaching of the scriptures.

2. I believe the new birth is Christ Jesus choosing us to be His disciple no differently than He choose the twelve. He does so after we make the commitment from ourselves.  Our allegiance to Him is the tie that binds.  He foreknows such allegiance and uses it for His purposes/will. Judas comes to mind in this. Once “accepted in the Beloved”, we see this as an actuality in our lives, i.e., something that is quickened to us. For the twelve, it was in the natural. For us, it will be our spirit that comes alive unto Him:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him [foreknowledge] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:” Ephesians 1:3-10 (KJV)
One who is born again is a worshipper. One who is born again will be proven with always the possibility of failure. Hence, the warnings against presumption.

 

Interest or identification?

I have been crucified with Christ. Gal. 2:20.

"The imperative need spiritually is to sign the death-warrant of the disposition of sin, to turn all emotional impressions and intellectual beliefs into a moral verdict against the disposition of sin, viz., my claim to my right to myself. Paul says—“I have been crucified with Christ”; he does not say, ‘I have determined to imitate Jesus Christ,’ or, ‘I will endeavour to follow Him,’ but, ‘I have been identified with Him in His death.’ When I come to such a moral decision and act upon it, then all that Christ wrought for me on the Cross is wrought in me. The free committal of myself to God gives the Holy Spirit the chance to impart to me the holiness of Jesus Christ.

“… nevertheless I live …” The individuality remains, but the mainspring, the ruling disposition, is radically altered. The same human body remains, but the old satanic right to myself is destroyed.

“And the life which I now live in the flesh …,” not the life which I long to live and pray to live, but the life I now live in my mortal flesh, the life which men can see, “I live by the faith of the Son of God.” This faith is not Paul’s faith in Jesus Christ, but the faith that the Son of God has imparted to him—“the faith of the Son of God.” It is no longer faith in faith, but faith which has overleapt all conscious bounds, the identical faith of the Son of God."


I hope this all helps clear up some of what I have tried to convey. It is by no means etched in stone for me. Perhaps you have some thoughts to share?

 

Lov'in Jesus,

 

*Chambers, O. (1986). My utmost for his highest: Selections for the year. Grand Rapids, MI: Oswald Chambers Publications; Marshall Pickering. 03/22.
 


Edited by Cross Reference, 16 June 2014 - 07:24 AM.


#15
other one

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I think you need to take some classes in simplifying your thoughts, but I do think I get your thought.

 

I think this is  a bit simpler put but tell me if I am wrong....

 

 

Rom 10:8-10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
NIV



#16
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Of course if one does have to be telling the truth when one confesses His Lordship.



#17
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I think you need to take some classes in simplifying your thoughts, but I do think I get your thought.

 

I think this is  a bit simpler put but tell me if I am wrong....

 

 

Rom 10:8-10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
NIV

 1. A confession is more than a profession so when one says he believes we must determine what that means. If  truly a confession then the life that speaks it will reveal the evidence. I am persuaded by the scriptures that Jesus can only be "confessed" by the indwelling Holy Spirit from the mouth of such a one. Therefore, it can only be asked of new born Christian in which case my answer would be, yes___ "If he continues in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,. . . . " Colossians 1:23 (KJV)
 

 

2. I don't find it easy to explain, with regards to Him.  The scenes of my own personal experiences, I "believe", God has given me to understand. It's tough being bold with an opinion.

 

Let me illustrate by asking you, does the word "might", in your thinking,  imply a conditional act? Yes, I am going some place with this.


Edited by Cross Reference, 16 June 2014 - 03:55 PM.


#18
2404

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I think you need to take some classes in simplifying your thoughts, but I do think I get your thought.
 
I think this is  a bit simpler put but tell me if I am wrong....
 
 
Rom 10:8-10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
NIV



Does
The rain falls on the just and unjust. &
Many are called but few are choosen.
Have room in the mix?
 

Edited by 2404, 16 June 2014 - 02:01 PM.


#19
other one

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I think you need to take some classes in simplifying your thoughts, but I do think I get your thought.
 
I think this is  a bit simpler put but tell me if I am wrong....
 
 
Rom 10:8-10
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
NIV



Does
The rain falls on the just and unjust. &
Many are called but few are choosen.
Have room in the mix?
 1. A confession is more than a profession so when one says he believes we must determine what that means. If  truly a confession then the life that speaks it will reveal the evidence. I am persuaded by the scriptures that Jesus can only be "confessed" by the indwelling Holy Spirit from the mouth of such a one. Therefore, it can only be asked of new born Christian in which case my answer would be, yes___ "If he continues in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,. . . . " Colossians 1:23 (KJV)
 
 
2. I don't find it easy to explain, with regarders to Him,  the scenes of my own personal experiences, I "believe", God has given me to understand. It's tough being bold with an opinion.
 
Let me illustrate by asking you, does the word "might", in your thinking,  imply a conditional act? Yes, I am going some place with this.

 

I think you may not understand that we most likely don't disagree on the subject, but you are talking me around in circles......   if you are speaking of John 3:16 yes that is a conditional "not" in that verse and should be translated might not instead of some translations of will not perish.    I don't see where it affects any part of Romans 10:9.

 

I would say that the Holy Spirit comes after one says that Jesus is our Lord.......   to say otherwise would be to say that the Holy Spirit himself picks who is and who is not going to hell  from the start.....   thus nullifying the scripture that says it is the will of God that everyone might be saved.  You have the same freedom to go to heaven or hell as do I.....   and it's your personal choice if one if introduced to the Gospel.



#20
2404

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Yes, I expect we are at odds.
I enjoyed the reading and I suppose I should have let it go at that.




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