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A Question About Matthew 7:1-5

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#1
Butero

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JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:  and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

Here is my question.  It is fairly common at Worthy Boards for someone to have a question about the right or wrong of something.  It can be anything from keeping the Sabbath, to gay marriage.  Given what it says in this scripture, is anyone qualified to say anything is wrong?  Is there anyone here that is living in absolute perfection?  Is it judging to give an opinion?  How about to say something is sinful?  Lets suppose the topic is something like gay marriage.  If I am not walking in absolute perfection, do I have to come to a place of absolute perfection to tell someone gay marriage is sinful?  How about fornication?  How about anything?  The reason I am asking, is I have seen a disturbing trend where anytime a question is asked about the sinfulness of something, if a person doesn't agree with your view the thing is sinful, they bring up this scripture.  If I took that serious, I would have to come to the conclusion that nobody can ever call anything sinful.  What do you think? 

 

 



#2
shiloh357

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Here is how some people read that passage:  

 

JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:  and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

That is the problem.  They don't really the whole thing.  Jesus is speaking against hypocritical judgment.  He is not saying we don't have the right to expose sin that we see taking place in the world.  This is the passage that people bring up to shield themselves from having to be faced with the sin in their lives.



#3
Tristen

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Since scripture has confined all under sin, we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust at the actions of others. But we have every right to inform people about those things which our Creator, from His perfect, infinite perspective, has designated to be sin.

 

Psalm 51

51 Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.

For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.



#4
shiloh357

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Since scripture has confined all under sin, we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust at the actions of others.

I am allowed to hate what God hates.  I think we should have a personal moral hatred of sin in.  I am personally disgusted by child abuse/molestation, homosexuality, adultery, lying, etc.   I don't see that Scripture teaches that we cannot be morally disgusted at sin.



#5
kwikphilly

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Blessings

 

King James Bible
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.                                                            Romans 12:9

 

King James Bible
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.              Psalm 97:10

        I agree with my Brother Shiloh & so it is Written, God approves        I agree with my Brother Butero & having the Heart & Mind of Christ,we know what is sin.......................because our own flesh wars with our spirit does not mean we cannot call a sin a sin.................we are striving towards perfection,must we be perfect to keep each other  from falling?Just as Shiloh has so eloquently put it.......the Scripture is speaking of hypocritical judgement,but not only do we have the right to expose sin,we have a responsibility to......Glory to God!

                                                                                                                                        With love-in Christ,Kwik



#6
Littlelambseativy

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I think that one can correct and not be offensive or accusatory and hurtful. It depends on how one words the correction. We do not know that person's mental or emotional state. Speaking in love in love the love that Jesus showed us.

#7
Butero

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I don't know if you can always correct without offending.  If a person is engaging in a sin, and they just happen to come upon a thread asking if the thing they are doing is wrong, a simple yes answer might be offensive to them, even if scripture is given to back it up.  It really all depends. 



#8
coheir

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JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:  and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

Here is my question.  It is fairly common at Worthy Boards for someone to have a question about the right or wrong of something.  It can be anything from keeping the Sabbath, to gay marriage.  Given what it says in this scripture, is anyone qualified to say anything is wrong?  Is there anyone here that is living in absolute perfection?  Is it judging to give an opinion?  How about to say something is sinful?  Lets suppose the topic is something like gay marriage.  If I am not walking in absolute perfection, do I have to come to a place of absolute perfection to tell someone gay marriage is sinful?  How about fornication?  How about anything?  The reason I am asking, is I have seen a disturbing trend where anytime a question is asked about the sinfulness of something, if a person doesn't agree with your view the thing is sinful, they bring up this scripture.  If I took that serious, I would have to come to the conclusion that nobody can ever call anything sinful.  What do you think? 

I have found I do not view the world as many others do. The bible says this

11 Tim 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

I have been before a judge on several occasions and what followed his judgement of the situation was a Sentence of punishment.

Reproof is simply the pointing out of something it cares no sentence to jail or hard labor

or anything of the kind.

One being judged always gets some sort of sentence after the judgement.

One being reproofed never gets a sentence after reproofed the only thing they got was

something was pointed out to them.

I think many confuse the two.

And I could be all wrong in my definitions.



#9
Osterloh

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IMO, there is a huge difference between judging someone

and giving an opinion or attempting to teach spiritual truth

(either through a new teaching or correcting someone's error).


Edited by Osterloh, 06 July 2014 - 03:25 PM.


#10
Openly Curious

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Psalms 51:10-13 - Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.  Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.  Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

 

Pointing out or saying something is a sin is not judging someone. The church has been given the message and ministry of reconciliation (restoration).

 

2 Corinthians 5:18-21 - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled  us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given unto us the ministry of reconciliation.  To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto hiself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (restoration).  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us:  we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.  For he hath made him to be a sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

Galatians 6:1-6 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.  Bear ye one anothers burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.  For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.  But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.  For every man shall bear his own burden.  Let him that is taught in the word communicate untohim that teacheth in all good things.

 

The church has to hold to the true faith.

 

Jude vs. 20-23 - But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.  And of some have compassion, making a difference:  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

James 5:19-20Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

Standing and speaking out against sin is the job and business of the church as we have the ministry and message of reconciliation.  We are to persuade others to be reconciled to God whether in a lifestyle of sin or a fellow saint who has been overtaken by sin.  If our gospel is hid then it is hid to those who are lost.



#11
Tristen

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Since scripture has confined all under sin, we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust at the actions of others.

I am allowed to hate what God hates.  I think we should have a personal moral hatred of sin in.  I am personally disgusted by child abuse/molestation, homosexuality, adultery, lying, etc.   I don't see that Scripture teaches that we cannot be morally disgusted at sin.

 

 

 

Yes – my original wording was poor. Since God has already judged certain actions to be sin, it would be redundant for us to assert that right. It is also somewhat self-evident that we should agree with God. Matthew 7 clearly speaks to judging people. So I should have said ‘we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust of people because of their actions’



#12
Butero

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Since scripture has confined all under sin, we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust at the actions of others.

I am allowed to hate what God hates.  I think we should have a personal moral hatred of sin in.  I am personally disgusted by child abuse/molestation, homosexuality, adultery, lying, etc.   I don't see that Scripture teaches that we cannot be morally disgusted at sin.

 

 

 

Yes – my original wording was poor. Since God has already judged certain actions to be sin, it would be redundant for us to assert that right. It is also somewhat self-evident that we should agree with God. Matthew 7 clearly speaks to judging people. So I should have said ‘we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust of people because of their actions’

 

I am not sure I understand where you are coming from.  Are you saying that if I hear a story on the news about a teacher or a priest molesting children, I am not to feel moral disgust?  If that is what you are saying, I am guilty of that every time I hear stories like that on the news.  The same thing happened to me recently over an animal abuse story I heard.  I saw this poor dog that was abused by it's owner, and felt disgust at the person that would do such a thing.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.  If I am understanding you right, I plead guilty to doing that on a regular basis. 



#13
shiloh357

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Since scripture has confined all under sin, we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust at the actions of others.

I am allowed to hate what God hates.  I think we should have a personal moral hatred of sin in.  I am personally disgusted by child abuse/molestation, homosexuality, adultery, lying, etc.   I don't see that Scripture teaches that we cannot be morally disgusted at sin.

 

 

 

Yes – my original wording was poor. Since God has already judged certain actions to be sin, it would be redundant for us to assert that right. It is also somewhat self-evident that we should agree with God. Matthew 7 clearly speaks to judging people. So I should have said ‘we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust of people because of their actions’

 

There is no prohibition on us judging sin and it is not redundant for us to judge sin.   I am morally disgusted by child molesters and the sin they commit.  How is that against any precept of Scripture?



#14
firestormx

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JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:  and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

Here is my question.  It is fairly common at Worthy Boards for someone to have a question about the right or wrong of something.  It can be anything from keeping the Sabbath, to gay marriage.  Given what it says in this scripture, is anyone qualified to say anything is wrong?  Is there anyone here that is living in absolute perfection?  Is it judging to give an opinion?  How about to say something is sinful?  Lets suppose the topic is something like gay marriage.  If I am not walking in absolute perfection, do I have to come to a place of absolute perfection to tell someone gay marriage is sinful?  How about fornication?  How about anything?  The reason I am asking, is I have seen a disturbing trend where anytime a question is asked about the sinfulness of something, if a person doesn't agree with your view the thing is sinful, they bring up this scripture.  If I took that serious, I would have to come to the conclusion that nobody can ever call anything sinful.  What do you think? 

Someone said or hinted at this earlier and I will agree with them. Most people either

 

1. Don't understand the difference between judging and correction.

2. Some just don't want to be told what they are doing is wrong.

 

Remember, some people are of this world. The devil is their father, at least until they are born again and adopted into the family of Jesus Christ and the Father in Heaven. Those who are of this world don't want to hear truth. But shall cling to themselves teachers having itching ears, lovers of pleasure  and lovers of self instead of lovers of God. 

 

Besides,  Sin is the transgression of the word. Not the transgression of my doctrine or your doctrine or anyone else's. But, the transgression of the word of God. Combine that with the verses that says, without blood there can be no forgiveness of sin, and you know what you have? You have a doctrine that is impossible to share if you can't explain to people what the sin is that Jesus alone can save them from.

 

I guess the only question left is, Why would anyone not want the gospel shared?  :hmmm:



#15
Openly Curious

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Besides,  Sin is the transgression of the word. Not the transgression of my doctrine or your doctrine or anyone else's.


Exceptional quote and spot on

 

But, the transgression of the word of God. Combine that with the verses that says, without blood there can be no forgiveness of sin, and you know what you have? You have a doctrine that is impossible to share if you can't explain to people what the sin is that Jesus alone can save them from.
 
I guess the only question left is, Why would anyone not want the gospel shared?  :hmmm:


Yes that's what the sum of it is,

transgression of the word + no forgiveness without Christ's blood = a gospel that is hid to the lost.

 



#16
JTC

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I'm not sure I'll explain this quite right, but I must try. First of all there's a difference in evaluating the behavior of a believer from a non believer. In Matthew 18 Jesus said this.

 

15 “If your brother or sistersins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

Now just keep that in mind.

When I was a little kid in the 1950's if a man and woman lived together without marriage it was frowned on very strongly. Unless everyone you knew was doing it, you'd get the cold shoulder from family and friends. I only barely remember that. But then the 1960's came, and slowly everything changed. Living together without marriage was still frowned upon, and abortion was illegal. Fornication wasn't as common as some men brag, because women feared getting pregnant. Condoms often broke. But then the birth control pill was invented. Finally abortion became legal. Now please realize Satan masterminded this whole thing. At some point, maybe the 1970's, a brother who believed in marriage became afraid to tell a brother and sister living together without marriage that it's a sin. But it is, and we all knew it. I guess we were afraid we'd be accused of judging another. But pointing out a major sin isn't making a hypocritical judgement unless you were doing it too. In the 1970's, most Christians were still getting married. But no one wanted to call a spade a spade. I think many of us hoped it would just die out. Instead it became more popular, and even Christian women were going for abortions. That was 30 to 40 years ago, and look at what happened. If the proof is in the pudding, today's pudding tastes like dirt. Maybe we have no right to say anything to unbelievers, but I'm talking about believers.

Getting back to the scriptures I started this with, if the sinning brother refused to listen to his brothers, and even the whole church, the Jesus commanded us to treat him as an unbeliever. We aren't being judgmental when we point out major sins. Living together without marriage, having babies out of wedlock, or worse yet, aborting the baby because the condom broke, are not little sins. We turned our heads for 30 years, and now our society is falling apart. We also have millions of people depressed with anxiety disorders, because our churches stopped calling sin a sin. We have similar problems with teenage violence. This is not the same as I have a plank in my eye, and I'm judging you for a speck. That would be like I'm living without marriage, and I pick on a brother because a cashier gave him an extra 10 cents back and he kept it. That would be I better get the plank out of my eye so I can see what my brother did.

In the Bible the word judge is too often misunderstood. So I often say we have to evaluate behavior. If it's sin, call it sin.

But I fear it's already too late.
 



#17
Wildstar

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I look at it like this.  Paul was most definitely a godly man who followed the Lord with all his heart according to his letters to the saints.  In many of these letters his purpose was to judge them and tell them to repent.  This is because his love for them is great.  It's okay to judge then using the right context.  



#18
Tristen

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Since scripture has confined all under sin, we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust at the actions of others.

I am allowed to hate what God hates.  I think we should have a personal moral hatred of sin in.  I am personally disgusted by child abuse/molestation, homosexuality, adultery, lying, etc.   I don't see that Scripture teaches that we cannot be morally disgusted at sin.

 

 

 

Yes – my original wording was poor. Since God has already judged certain actions to be sin, it would be redundant for us to assert that right. It is also somewhat self-evident that we should agree with God. Matthew 7 clearly speaks to judging people. So I should have said ‘we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust of people because of their actions’

 

I am not sure I understand where you are coming from.  Are you saying that if I hear a story on the news about a teacher or a priest molesting children, I am not to feel moral disgust?  If that is what you are saying, I am guilty of that every time I hear stories like that on the news.  The same thing happened to me recently over an animal abuse story I heard.  I saw this poor dog that was abused by it's owner, and felt disgust at the person that would do such a thing.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.  If I am understanding you right, I plead guilty to doing that on a regular basis. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since scripture has confined all under sin, we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust at the actions of others.

I am allowed to hate what God hates.  I think we should have a personal moral hatred of sin in.  I am personally disgusted by child abuse/molestation, homosexuality, adultery, lying, etc.   I don't see that Scripture teaches that we cannot be morally disgusted at sin.

 

 

 

Yes – my original wording was poor. Since God has already judged certain actions to be sin, it would be redundant for us to assert that right. It is also somewhat self-evident that we should agree with God. Matthew 7 clearly speaks to judging people. So I should have said ‘we are not qualified to indulge in personal moral disgust of people because of their actions’

 

There is no prohibition on us judging sin and it is not redundant for us to judge sin.   I am morally disgusted by child molesters and the sin they commit.  How is that against any precept of Scripture?

 

 

 

 

Hey Butero & Shiloh,

 

Our judgement of sin is redundant in the sense that we are merely agreeing with what God has already deemed to be sin. We have no right in ourselves to make that call. If God has deemed behaviour to be sin, then it is sin – regardless of our agreement. Likewise, if we judge behaviour to be sin beyond scriptural support, then we are being presumptuous.

 

Defaulting to child molestation as an example demonstrates that we are grading on-the-curve. Apart from the dangerous few, we all find child molestation to be repulsive. Yet there are other areas in my life where I sometimes succumb to temptation. If I hated those sins as much as I hate child molestation, then I wouldn’t even be tempted.

 

Because child molestation is so utterly repugnant (because we agree with God regarding the value of innocence), it is difficult for us to disassociate the sin from the sinner. Nevertheless Jesus suffered the cross to make salvation available to all sinners. The blood of Christ is sufficient - even for this. For any sinner to repent from their sin and surrender to Christ is a victory for the kingdom of God. This doesn’t exempt them from human justice, or override our right to protect our children. I personally have no problem with the death penalty for such crimes. But if they sincerely give their life to Christ before they get the needle – then glory to God.

 

All sinners are broken and in need of a Saviour. I wonder if I had been born into different circumstances, where the opportunities to consider the gospel were lacking, if perhaps I would have made poorer decisions, and my life been overtaken by some depravity. So I am in no position to judge any person – apart from declaring what God has already declared. As king David recognised in Psalm 51, all sin is against God and His holiness. Since we ourselves have sinned, and been saved only by grace, we are in no position to be personally offended by sin (i.e. our personal offense is irrelevent). The only virtue in me is that which God has bestowed. There is only one ultimate Judge (only One Who has earned the right) – and it definitely isn’t me.



#19
Paradox

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If the law of God is spiritual, and describing the boundaries of love, then any judgement must also be spiritual in love or it cannot be according to this law.

 

However, if there is no law of God and it was "done away with at the cross" then every man will find themselves in some unspoken hierarchy, where the most powerful and or the majority make the rules and do the judging.

 

A subject under the law of God, judges everything, I Corinthians 2:15. Once again, that judgement has to be according to spiritual value, which has to do with the heart or motive and not just external appearances.

 

And since sinners have lost their right heart and motives, and even as Christians are damaged in that department, it is never safe to judge motive and only external words and actions. Sinners are naturally offended by anyone who upholds that law, or lives it out. 

 

The trouble is, that this is where Satan likes to introduce himself as God, making judgments in the place of God, so again we end up with a system that enforces religious rigmaroles revolving around outward appearance.


Edited by Paradox, 09 July 2014 - 04:57 AM.


#20
Butero

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I'm not sure I'll explain this quite right, but I must try. First of all there's a difference in evaluating the behavior of a believer from a non believer. In Matthew 18 Jesus said this.

 

15 “If your brother or sistersins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

Now just keep that in mind.

When I was a little kid in the 1950's if a man and woman lived together without marriage it was frowned on very strongly. Unless everyone you knew was doing it, you'd get the cold shoulder from family and friends. I only barely remember that. But then the 1960's came, and slowly everything changed. Living together without marriage was still frowned upon, and abortion was illegal. Fornication wasn't as common as some men brag, because women feared getting pregnant. Condoms often broke. But then the birth control pill was invented. Finally abortion became legal. Now please realize Satan masterminded this whole thing. At some point, maybe the 1970's, a brother who believed in marriage became afraid to tell a brother and sister living together without marriage that it's a sin. But it is, and we all knew it. I guess we were afraid we'd be accused of judging another. But pointing out a major sin isn't making a hypocritical judgement unless you were doing it too. In the 1970's, most Christians were still getting married. But no one wanted to call a spade a spade. I think many of us hoped it would just die out. Instead it became more popular, and even Christian women were going for abortions. That was 30 to 40 years ago, and look at what happened. If the proof is in the pudding, today's pudding tastes like dirt. Maybe we have no right to say anything to unbelievers, but I'm talking about believers.

Getting back to the scriptures I started this with, if the sinning brother refused to listen to his brothers, and even the whole church, the Jesus commanded us to treat him as an unbeliever. We aren't being judgmental when we point out major sins. Living together without marriage, having babies out of wedlock, or worse yet, aborting the baby because the condom broke, are not little sins. We turned our heads for 30 years, and now our society is falling apart. We also have millions of people depressed with anxiety disorders, because our churches stopped calling sin a sin. We have similar problems with teenage violence. This is not the same as I have a plank in my eye, and I'm judging you for a speck. That would be like I'm living without marriage, and I pick on a brother because a cashier gave him an extra 10 cents back and he kept it. That would be I better get the plank out of my eye so I can see what my brother did.

In the Bible the word judge is too often misunderstood. So I often say we have to evaluate behavior. If it's sin, call it sin.

But I fear it's already too late.
 

Thanks for posting this well thought out comment.  It makes a lot of sense to me.  I can look at how our society has degenerated, and your time line is spot on.  I fear it may be too late as well, but I do believe God will always have a remnant church. 






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