Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Scripture threatens loss of salvation

181 posts in this topic

Posted (edited) · Report post

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NKJV):

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter,

as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Let no one deceive you by any means;

for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,

and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped,

so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

 

Everyone believes the antichrist comes and causes the great tribulation.

Then this will cause the falling away (apostacy).

 

This great falling away from the church is the result of

many pre-tribulation believers NOT being prepared in any way

for the horrendous persecution that will be coming upon them!

 

Many of these many will NOT endure with their faith until the end of their lives.

Many of these many will NOT refuse to take the mark of the beast.

 

Scriptures are available upon request regarding …

the warnings that both of these causes loss of salvation!

 

All of this happens before Jesus comes to rapture His bride (in verse 1).

Edited by Osterloh
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Those who believe in the pre-trib rapture, if it is proven to be false, will be quickly checking their understanding, but I doubt they will fall prey to Satan. You forget that the Holy Spirit will be right there with them. You surely can be concerned, but to claim many will fall and take the mark is only one possibility.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Most everyone I know who is pre-trib are prepared if they are wrong.  The notion that believing in a pre-trib rapture will cause people who believe in it to fall away if it doesn't happen that way is not really true.  Many have told me that they are hoping Jesus comes before the tribulation, but are also ready to endure what they have to endure if He doesn't.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Thank you both for sharing your views!

I guess we could ask what percentage out of a huge number of Christians is “many”?

And how many will be totally caught off guard and unprepared?

And how many will be cowards and choose to run, trying to save their lives?

And how many will choose to take the mark instead of starving to death?

 

Re: being cowards, do you think this applies? …

Revelation 21:7-8 (NKJV):

“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral,

sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake

which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

John 10

 

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

John 10

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.

29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

 

Yes, and please note the tricky words in blue.

 

Now, you are claiming that the passage only applies to true BACs, and thou art correct.

 

Now, I am claiming that the passage does not say "follow Me all of the time without fail"

... because the flesh and free will are involved.

 

And I am also claiming that we are both correct.

But, am I claiming correctly?

Edited by Osterloh
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Thank you both for sharing your views!

I guess we could ask what percentage out of a huge number of Christians is “many”?

And how many will be totally caught off guard and unprepared?

And how many will be cowards and choose to run, trying to save their lives?

And how many will choose to take the mark instead of starving to death?

 

Re: being cowards, do you think this applies? …

Revelation 21:7-8 (NKJV):

“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

To begin with, you use the term "many" in your OP, so why don't you tell us how many that is?

Just because someone believes in the pre-trib rapture does not mean they are a coward. Careful how you label people.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

John 10

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.

29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

 

Yes, and please note the tricky words in blue.

 

Now, you are claiming that the passage only applies to true BACs, and thou art correct.

 

Now, I am claiming that the passage does not say "follow Me all of the time without fail"

... because the flesh and free will are involved.

 

And I am also claiming that we are both correct.

But, am I claiming correctly?

Our sister did not claim any such thing. It would be wise if you did not put words in other members posts to continue down a line you want to travel. They is a good way to find yourself restricted.
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I believe in a pretribe rapture but am more than prepared to be wrong, I see it as an honor to serve god in the tribulation.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I dont think a belief in pre-trib alone will make anyone fall away. Keep in mind The Book says in those days God will pour out His spirit on ALL flesh. Even babes in Christ will prophecy. I am post trib, but in respect for pre tribbers I will say IF they are wrong The Holy Ghost will show the way real quick. Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Okay, Anyone who has read my positions on the topic of end times sequences, knows that I do not take kindly to the pre-trib position. Frankly, I beleive it is an error, and it might even be a dangerous error for some. I beleive it to be an ear tickling deception that we should expect in the last days. That being said, I cannot at all go to the place where I think my pre-trib brothers and sisters in Christ, are endangering their salvation through this belief.

 

It is not belief in a post-trib rapture, that is the basis of salvation, it is faith in the work of Jesus to make us righteous. That is a done, and settled deal to my understanding, and believing in an erroneous peripheral doctrine has not one thing to do with salvation.

 

By a strange coincidence though I was reading the passage last night, about the apostasy, and would like to offer an alternative understanding, This will be a bit premature, and not well thought out or researched, so feel free to pick it apart if it deserves that.

 

It occurred to me, that the word in the Greek which we translate to the word apostasy, can mean rebellion.

 

Look carefully again at the context - might not the rebellion pictured, be a major and obvious rebellion of the man of sin himself, and that this rebellion or apostasy, it what tips the anti-christ's hand, and exposes him, reveals him, for who he is, for those who are watching for the signs that Jesus said to watch for? Just a (not too well thought out) thought.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I have read in the history of the church, that the early church believed that if a person sins, their interpretation was that since there is no more sacrifice for sin, they have lost their salvation, permanently. Under Roman rule, thru various caesars, some were Christian friendly, and some were violently opposed to Christianity, sentencing Christians to death. After a Christian friendly ruler, many became 'christians', but later, a very anti-christian ruler came to power and persecuted those who claimed to be christians. Many christians fell away, renouncing Jesus, returning to the older Roman religions. When the next christian friendly ruler came to power, some who had fallen away, bemoaned their sin, but the church taught that they had sinned and permanently lost their salvation. It was during this time that church leadership discussed the doctrines and decided that a person could repent, and be saved again.

 

But my point is, at any given time, we know that there are those who have 'snuck in unawares'. People who are not truly born again believers have joined various churches. When a time comes with persecution, and it does not have to be the great tribulation, there will be those who were among us, but are not part of us, who will 'fall away'. I view it as a very sad gleaning of the church.

 

This is affirmed further by the parable of the seeds.

 

Matthew 13: 18“Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the [i]word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the [j]word, immediately he [k]falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the [l]world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

 

24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27 The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

 

So, anytime there is persecution, some will fall away. The following verse concerns those who fall away due to false doctrines.

 

 1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.     

 

I personally believe that God promises to keep those who are His. There are many verses which indicate that we are safely in His hands, and He will not lost us, forsake us, and if one of the sheep wander away, He will come to get us.

 

From my own experience, I was not raised in Christianity, and when I found Jesus was Messiah and Lord, my family and friends did not receive the news well at all. My family declared me dead to them, my friends abandoned me, and my husband divorced me.  To regain family and spouse, all I had to do was renounce Jesus. I also lost my job as my boss was of the same ethniciy and belief as my family. I know this sound all horrible, and it was not fun, but God gave me extraordinary faith, and peace thru that time. If Christians do go thru tribulation, God says He will not give us more then we can bear, and is capable of sustaining us. Since I was a new believer when this happened, I was not grounded in doctrine, and had not formed any end time belief. Yet, God was there. I had no real time to prepare for persecution, yet God was there for me.

 

I would not look forward to the great tribulation, but past experience tells me that whatever we have to experience, if we are genuine believers, God will be there.    

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I have read in the history of the church, that the early church believed that if a person sins, their interpretation was that since there is no more sacrifice for sin, they have lost their salvation, permanently.

 

~

 

The Early

 

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:26-28

 

Church

 

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Those who think that the Church and Christ followers need to be cleansed by the Trib have a bigger problem than believing or not believing in a Pre-trib rapture. To believe such is to believe that Christ's death on the Cross is insufficient to pay for our sins and that it is an unfinished work. Why would a just GOD want to punish HIS Children whom HE has completely forgiven; whom HE has indwelt with the Holy Spirit guaranteeing their salvation; whom "nothing" can remove from Christ's hand? Christ died for all sin, past, present, and future. Once saved, always saved, and only GOD knows who is saved (besides the person themself).

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Those who think that the Church and Christ followers need to be cleansed by the Trib have a bigger problem than believing or not believing in a Pre-trib rapture. To believe such is to believe that Christ's death on the Cross is insufficient to pay for our sins and that it is an unfinished work. Why would a just GOD want to punish HIS Children whom HE has completely forgiven; whom HE has indwelt with the Holy Spirit guaranteeing their salvation; whom "nothing" can remove from Christ's hand? Christ died for all sin, past, present, and future. Once saved, always saved, and only GOD knows who is saved (besides the person themself).

 

Some may say that the Christians in the Middle East are already going through their own Tribulation. The Tribulation is not so much a punishment from God as a test for mankind. It is Satan who will be doing the punishing. God will only punish after the Tribulation.

But putting all that aside:

 

If the post-tribbers are correct, this does not mean that pre-tribbers will lose their salvation. Pre-tribbers will be protected by the Holy Spirit. Besides, they're not stupid enough to accept a false messiah and then take some sort of mark that he offers them. I think most pre-tribbers are at least familiar with the rudiments of the book of Revelation if nothing else.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

The whole book pretty much warns about living ungodly and how it results in death.  Not just that scripture.  Not just for people who believe in pre-tribulation rapture.  Personally I believe in mid-trib rapture.  

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Just to throw this out there but the term rapture is not a but biblical term. And last I checked end times belief is not a salvation issue. Nowhere does it say "confess in Jesus and believe in a rapture followed by a 7 year tribulation" unless of course you count Jude chapter 2 verse 2.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Those who think that the Church and Christ followers need to be cleansed by the Trib have a bigger problem than believing or not believing in a Pre-trib rapture.

 

To believe such is to believe that Christ's death on the Cross is insufficient to pay for our sins and that it is an unfinished work.

 

Why would a just GOD want to punish HIS Children whom HE has completely forgiven; whom HE has indwelt with the Holy Spirit guaranteeing their salvation; whom "nothing" can remove from Christ's hand?

 

Christ died for all sin, past, present, and future.

 

Once saved, always saved, and only GOD knows who is saved (besides the person himself).

 

:thumbsup:

 

Beloved, The Resurrection Of The Body

 

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

 

Is A Promise That Was Once Given

 

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25

 

Yet Often Prophesied 

 

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

 

And Is Clung To By Believers

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Revelation 20:4-7

 

You See

 

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 1 John 5:1

 

Beloved

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Just because someone believes in the pre-trib rapture does not mean they are a coward.

 

Please slow down and read carefully what I have written ... because you have grossly misunderstood it, and mislabelled me as well.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

The whole book pretty much warns about living ungodly and how it results in death.  Not just that scripture.  

Not just for people who believe in pre-tribulation rapture.  Personally I believe in mid-trib rapture.  

 

By "the whole book" perhaps you mean the whole Bible, and I would agree.

But, surely you don't mean that applies to pre-tribbers (for there is absolutely no sin in being one).

IMO, Scripture makes it clear that the rapture does not occur at either end (fore or aft),

but somewhere in the middle of the great tribulation.

 

A clarification for those of you who have not read/understood what I have written:

-- the antichrist causes the tribulation

-- many pre-tribbers are totally unprepared and shocked at what they are going through

-- so, many of these fall away from the faith

-- Rev 21:8 speaks of "the cowardly" being thrown into the lake of fire ... which agrees with several

other passages that say one must endure in his faith until the end of life to receive eternal life.

-- I am asking: could this "cowardly" refer to people who fall away from the faith during the great tribulation?

Edited by Osterloh
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

 

Just because someone believes in the pre-trib rapture does not mean they are a coward.

 

Please slow down and read carefully what I have written ... because you have grossly misunderstood it, and mislabelled me as well.

 

 

No, I have not.  I made the statement that just because they are pre-trib believers, that doe snot equate to them being a coward.  The reason why I warned about mislabeling is because you opened this thread, focusing on pre-trib believers.  I believe there will be many who turn from the truth and not because of their stance in the rapture, but because their lack of true faith.

 

Care to show me where I labeled you?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

A clarification for those of you who have not read/understood what I have written:

1) -- the antichrist causes the tribulation

2) -- many pre-tribbers are totally unprepared and shocked at what they are going through

3) -- so, many of these fall away from the faith

4) -- Rev 21:8 speaks of "the cowardly" being thrown into the lake of fire ... which agrees with several other passages that say one must endure in his faith until the end of life to receive eternal life.

5)  -- I am asking: could this "cowardly" refer to people who fall away from the faith during the great tribulation?

I have placed number next to your statements to refer to them easily.

 

  1. Please provide scripture that points to the anti-christ causing the tribulation.  I would argue that man causes the tribulation, which sets up an opportunity for Satan to try and take control.
  2. I really don't think they will be shocked, perhaps disappointed.  AS for not being prepared, that is a possibility.
  3. Scripture tells us that there will be a great falling away, but it does not speak of the "who" involved.  I venture to believe that those who fall away have not committed their lives to Christ, but are fence sitters.  There will be those who fall away from every standpoint of the rapture belief.
  4. True.
  5. Sure it will refer to them, and all others who are cowardly since the beginning of mankind.

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Just a warning. If a person believes that making it thru the great tribulation as a Christian, requires belief in a late rapture or no rapture, as then the expectation will be they will go thru the tribulation and they are mentally prepared, I fear those people might be in danger. When great persecution arrives, with the tribulation or otherwise, the way to survive is by faith and trust in God. Not some belief which gives a personal strength, or exercise which give an individual fortitude. Any time of persecution or tribulation, is a time of learning to place faith in God and rely on God. Not in our own belief or strength.  

 

So, if a person believes those who believe in an early rapture, before the great tribulation, might fall away, because they were not prepared and didn't expect a hard time, places too much emphasis in peoples abilities and not enough faith in God. That is a dangerous place to be. God is faithful.  

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Those who think that the Church and Christ followers need to be cleansed by the Trib have a bigger problem than believing or not believing in a Pre-trib rapture. 

Have you ever met someone who believed that? I don't think I ever have. If such people exist, I certainly agree with your statement.

 

However, I do think that the case can be made, that persecution can have the effect of purification of individuals (it can make them stronger) and it can help weed out the church - many tares will just abandon the faith (se also the parable of the sower).

 

However, in the larger sense of being cleansed, believers are washed by the blood of Jesus, and we do not need to turn the tribulation into a protestant version of Purgatory.

 

Not addressing any particular point here, but of interest:

 

 12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. 14If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; 16but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? 19Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

One light ...
just because they are pre-trib believers, that does not equate to them being a coward.  

I believe there will be many who turn from the truth and not because of their stance in the rapture,

but because their lack of true faith.

 

Again, I never meant to say what you are interpreting.

IMO, some of every imaginable persuasion will be cowards,

and run from the persecution and run towards taking the mark.

Please note that the word "every" must include pre-tribbers.

Edited by Osterloh
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0