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Adams transgression

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In what way is Adams transgression typical of what Jesus would do?

 

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was

to come. 

 

Thank you.

 

Edwin.

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1 Tim 2:14

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Adam *chose* to follow Eve into her exile from the garden, and by doing so she, through the promised "seed of the woman", was redeemed.

(That Adam's choice was a sin is an important, but separate issue!)

Likewise, Christ chose to follow us into sin (in a manner of speaking; He was made sin), so that we could be redeemed.

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In what way is Adams transgression typical of what Jesus would do?

 

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was

to come. 

 

Thank you.

 

Edwin.

Adam was not type of Christ in the transgression he committed.   He was a type of Christ in that just as Adam served as man's federal head in the Garden, Jesus was man's federal head on the cross.

 

When Adam sinned all of humanity was polluted by the sin nature inherited from Adam.   When Jesus was on the cross, he represented all of humanity and paid the price for Adam's sin on our behalf.

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Thank you both for your comments.

 

My thinking is influenced somewhat by,

 

1Ti 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 
1Ti 2:15 but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.  Hebrew names version

 

Now here is a clue. What did Jesus do to save His bride

 

Every blessing..

 

Edwin.

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Thank you both for your comments.

 

My thinking is influenced somewhat by,

 

1Ti 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 

1Ti 2:15 but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.  Hebrew names version

 

Now here is a clue. What did Jesus do to save His bride

 

Every blessing..

 

Edwin.

Jesus gave his life for His bride according to Ephesians 5.   What are you getting at?

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Indeed, Ephesian 5:25-32
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
 
(I suggest Adam did this too. I'm not saying he acted with the same fore-knowledge as Christ, but he still chose to follow Eve into her exile from the garden, which then allowed her to have offspring, which then allowed her to be redeemed. Paul in other places says Adam is guilty of introducing sin into the world, but in a paradoxical way his sin allowed Eve's salvation.)
 
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
 
Paul is saying that human marriage is a model of the relationship of the Christ to the church. We see this evidenced in scripture in several places. Offhand:
Adam taking on sin to save Eve.
Boaz redeeming Naomi's land and taking a gentile bride in Ruth.
The Commandment "though shalt not commit adultery": note that adultery occurs in a marriage, whereas fornication is among the unmarried, and while wrong is not the subject of the commandment. God seems to have placed a special emphasis on unfaithfulness inside of marriage.
Unfaithfulness to God in Israel is referred to as a whoring wife throughout the OT, reinforcing the idiom of the marriage as a model of a right relationship to God.
Paul in other passages places special emphasis on those sins that are contrary to marriage, for example Rom 1:24-28.
 
I think 1 Tim 2:15 is a separate thought than v14 before it, but it is interesting to see them linked. Eve, by her childbearing, was able to be saved.
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Thank you shiloh357 for your question.

 

You will recall I said "Now here is a clue. What did Jesus do to save His bride"

 

Answer.   2Cr 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 

 

"He who knew no sin permitted Himself to be made sin", in order to save His bride, you and I.

 

Adam who knew no sin permitted Himself to be made sin", in order to save His bride, Eve.

 

Remember, we are told than Adam was not deceived, he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

Bless you.

 

Edwin.

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Indeed, Ephesian 5:25-32
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
 
(I suggest Adam did this too. I'm not saying he acted with the same fore-knowledge as Christ, but he still chose to follow Eve into her exile from the garden, which then allowed her to have offspring, which then allowed her to be redeemed. Paul in other places says Adam is guilty of introducing sin into the world, but in a paradoxical way his sin allowed Eve's salvation.)
 
 

I am sorry, but that is not what the Bible says! 

 

Gen 3:23-24 "Therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."
 
Adam didn't follow his wife into her exile, she followed him into his exile. In Romans 5 Adam is blamed for the sin, not women (in fact nowhere in scripture is Eve held responsible, though Paul makes in clear in 1 Tim 2 that she sinned first)
Edited by Reformed Baptist
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The "following" I'm referring to happened earlier, in Gen 3:6, when Adam chose to also eat the fruit. That is when Adam made a choice and was not deceived. Exile from the garden was the result of their sin. I guess in my mind the act of eating is equivalent to the exile, which is what's implied in Gen 2:17.

 

Or are you saying that Eve could have sinned, and not been exiled???

-that's not the significance I see in the him and man in v23-24; rather that he as the head of his family in a patriarchal setting was driven out, and therefore his family (Eve) with him.

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i don't believe the Bible says that Eve Sinned.....   it says she fell into transgression because she was quite deceived..

 

The Bible also states that Adam brought sin into the world....

 

Actually they brought the knowledge of sin into the world......    don't forget that they had been running around naked for some time until they ate of the fruit and realized they needed to cover themselves......    sin was there, but knowledge of it was not....

 

that's the reason I tell people that we are not guilty of anything Adam did for his sin is not passed onto us, but the ability to know of our own sin in our own lives.     Adam didn't make us all evil with that original sin talk.......    he gave us the ability to know better than to sin and there is no longer any excuse for our actions....

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You're using "transgression" so I'll assume you're referring to 1 Tim 2:14, quoted earlier.

 

So Eve didn't sin? A transgression isn't a sin? Several translations render this same word as sin or sinner. It's use throughout the rest of the NT is in relation to breaking the law, even used to refer to Adam's transgression. So if Adam sinned, so did Eve!

 

We aren't guilty of Adam's sin, but we have inherited his sin nature. Before sinning, they knew no sin. I think that is what is meant by the "knowledge of sin".

 

Nakedness was not a sin, but after sinning an awareness of their lack of righteousness (clothing is almost always scripturally linked to righteousness, here especially so) is what caused them to seek clothing. And it's instructive to note that this is the first act of religion- they tried through the works of their own hands to put on righteousness by sewing garmets of fig leaves, and God corrects them by making them coats of skins and thereby signifying that by the shedding of blood they would be covered.

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Eve did it from deception.....there is a difference...  Remember that Eve didn't hear God give them the directions as far as we know.   Appearantly Adam told her that if she touched the fruit she would die.....   The snake showed her that wasn't the case and talked her into eating the fruit.

 

Adam on the other hand knew exactly what God had told him and had no excuse as far as I can see, and it appears that God agreed and laid all the blame on him.

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Eve did it from deception.....there is a difference...  Remember that Eve didn't hear God give them the directions as far as we know.   Appearantly Adam told her that if she touched the fruit she would die.....   The snake showed her that wasn't the case and talked her into eating the fruit.

 

Adam on the other hand knew exactly what God had told him and had no excuse as far as I can see, and it appears that God agreed and laid all the blame on him.

 

So why did Eve receive extra punishment (pain during childbirth)?

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Eve did it from deception.....there is a difference...  Remember that Eve didn't hear God give them the directions as far as we know.   Appearantly Adam told her that if she touched the fruit she would die.....   The snake showed her that wasn't the case and talked her into eating the fruit.

 

Adam on the other hand knew exactly what God had told him and had no excuse as far as I can see, and it appears that God agreed and laid all the blame on him.

 

So why did Eve receive extra punishment (pain during childbirth)?

 

For giving Adam the fruit to eat.    She had already eaten of it and had to know that was wrong....

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The "following" I'm referring to happened earlier, in Gen 3:6, when Adam chose to also eat the fruit. That is when Adam made a choice and was not deceived. Exile from the garden was the result of their sin. I guess in my mind the act of eating is equivalent to the exile, which is what's implied in Gen 2:17.

 

No, Gen 2:17 does not imply exile, it expresses death. "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." When Adam ate the fruit he wasn't subjecting himself to exile, he was subjecting himself to instant spiritual death (separation from God) that would result in his physical death (separation of body and soul) and unless he repented (eternal death of utter separation from God). This was no heroic act on his part of choosing to sacrifice himself for his wife as you seem to be presenting it, rather it was direct rebellion to the clear command that God had given him. 

 

Or are you saying that Eve could have sinned, and not been exiled???

-that's not the significance I see in the him and man in v23-24; rather that he as the head of his family in a patriarchal setting was driven out, and therefore his family (Eve) with him.

 

 

I think you need to look at the text again, it does not say that women (she wasn't called Eve till after the Garden!) went to find Adam to give him the fruit to it, it implies that he was with her when the serpent came - instead of stopping her, instead of correcting her misrepresentation of what God had said he not only allowed her to eat the fruit but ate it with her so no, Eve could not have sinned without Adam in that situation!  

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Keep in mind who is head of who.

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i don't believe the Bible says that Eve Sinned.....   it says she fell into transgression because she was quite deceived..

 

 

What is transgression if it isn't sin? 

 

Eve did it from deception.....there is a difference...  Remember that Eve didn't hear God give them the directions as far as we know.   Appearantly Adam told her that if she touched the fruit she would die.....   The snake showed her that wasn't the case and talked her into eating the fruit.

 

 

 

I am not sure that argument works. We are not told if woman's misrepresentation's of God's command was her own or Adam's - all we know is she did misrepresentation the command. Beside's just because one is deceived does not absolve one of responsibility for one's actions does it? If I am deceived into thinking killing a person is a good thing, so I go ahead and kill him I can still expect to found guilty of a crime. 

 

Adam on the other hand knew exactly what God had told him and had no excuse as far as I can see, and it appears that God agreed and laid all the blame on him.

 

 

It is much more then that - Adam was responsible for woman and for the whole human race. this is key to whole gospel message, If God isn't dealing with humanity in Adam, he can't also deal with humanity in Christ 

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I am not sure that argument works. We are not told if woman's misrepresentation's of God's command was her own or Adam's - all we know is she did misrepresentation the command. Beside's just because one is deceived does not absolve one of responsibility for one's actions does it? If I am deceived into thinking killing a person is a good thing, so I go ahead and kill him I can still expect to found guilty of a crime. 

It's done in our court system quite often....   I'm not sure about Gods.

When Adam and Eve were running around naked did God hold that against them until they understood it was wrong.

 

Does God hold little kids accountable until they reach a point in their development that they understand......   or mentally ill people?

 

I don't really want to make that much of a deal out if it though, for I do believe that God really set the whole thing up so that Satan would be responsible for the humans to know good from evil so we could make a good jury for judging the angels.   I do not believe that God ever intended for us to live forever in these bodies... 

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Let me now sum up this topic, and at the same time add some material, which I trust will be of help.
 
I have extracted it from my subject, "The fall of man, an alternative view."
 
At Rom 5:14, we are told that,  Adam, was a type of the one who was to come. 
 
We are also told at, 1Ti 2:14, that, Adam wasn't deceived,  he knows just what he is doing.
 
And then at, 1Ti 2:15 but she will be saved through her child-bearing.
 
Now how much childbearing had she done?, Non, can she fertilize herself? No. Only her husband can do that for her, but he is sinless, and perfect, and can have no contact with that which is sinful
 
Apart from Adam and Eve, the Human race has not yet been started, and if it isn't started then the kinsman redeemer cannot be born into it.
 
The only way in which mankind can be started, is if he becomes like her, a sinner, remember, he is not deceived, he knows just what he is doing.
 
Does he go to the tree as she had done. No he does not. He goes to her, and takes the fruit from her hand and partakes thereof. Symbolic of Jesus coming to us, and taking our sin to Himself.
 
May the Lord bless you, and keep you safe.
 
Edwin.

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Let me now sum up this topic, and at the same time add some material, which I trust will be of help.

 

I have extracted it from my subject, "The fall of man, an alternative view."

 

At Rom 5:14, we are told that,  Adam, was a type of the one who was to come. 

 

We are also told at, 1Ti 2:14, that, Adam wasn't deceived,  he knows just what he is doing.

 

And then at, 1Ti 2:15 but she will be saved through her child-bearing.

 

Now how much childbearing had she done?, Non, can she fertilize herself? No. Only her husband can do that for her, but he is sinless, and perfect, and can have no contact with that which is sinful

 

Apart from Adam and Eve, the Human race has not yet been started, and if it isn't started then the kinsman redeemer cannot be born into it.

 

The only way in which mankind can be started, is if he becomes like her, a sinner, remember, he is not deceived, he knows just what he is doing.

 

Does he go to the tree as she had done. No he does not. He goes to her, and takes the fruit from her hand and partakes thereof. Symbolic of Jesus coming to us, and taking our sin to Himself.

 

May the Lord bless you, and keep you safe.

 

Edwin.

So I am clear with what you are posting, are you saying that Adam was sinless? That his direct disobedience to Gods command to him is not a sin?

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No!

That is a separate issue.

Only that he was a type of Christ, and this is how- by choosing to follow Eve.

What is the symbolism of the snake on a pole, that is said to be a figure of Christ in John 3? John equates the snake with Christ. It doesn't take much symbolic insight to realize what a snake represents to a Jewish mind.

The point of the comparison to Adam or the snake isn't that they are like Christ, but that Christ made Himself like them, on the cross. He was "made sin". He experienced separation from the Father for the first time in eternity. I believe that separation hurt far more than the physical ordeal. His cry of anguish from the cross wasn't about physical pain, but about the realization that with the weight of our sins resting on/in Him, He could no longer have fellowship with the Father.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I think the significance of this verse is generally overlooked. Being "made sin", is to experience the full wrath of a righteous God, who cannot abide any sin. Christ's physical death was insignificant in comparison.

Edited by Persuaded
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OneLight.

 

You ask, "are you saying that Adam was sinless?"

 

Adam was sinless when he decided to take the necessary action to save Eve, and this resulted in him becoming a sinner.

 

Edwin.

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That might be overstating Adam's motive a bit- I don't see that Adam knew his choice would save Eve, just that he chose (perhaps carnally or selfishly, perhaps out of selfless love) to join her in whatever future she then had before her. God's promise of the redeemer through the seed of the woman came after both sinned.

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Eve did it from deception.....there is a difference...  Remember that Eve didn't hear God give them the directions as far as we know.   Appearantly Adam told her that if she touched the fruit she would die.....   The snake showed her that wasn't the case and talked her into eating the fruit.

 

Adam on the other hand knew exactly what God had told him and had no excuse as far as I can see, and it appears that God agreed and laid all the blame on him.

I so agree with otherone. Adam directly heard the voice of God here. Eve had not yet been created. So she may have disobeyed Adam's warning, but she had not heard about this directly from God. So her greater sin was in being deceived by the serpent, the father of lies. But Adam openly rebelled against the Creator of the universe. God had told Adam face to face not to eat of the tree, but chose to follow his wife instead of following God. Also, as head of the family he probably is held partly responsible for her transgression as well as his own.
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Maybe the connection is that Eve was made from Adam and Adam from Jesus.

Body > Body > Body

And Jesus is the head of Adam and Adam the head of Eve

Head > Head > Head?

The head took on the sin of the body.

But Jesus doing so was a gift and not a transgression. (Which is what the topics passage is about.)

You guys are looking to Eve as if she was innocent but she had heard from her head not to eat and so like everyone, her body suffered.

Just another thought: The punishment is fitting the crime. They ate an imperfect fruit after not listening to their heads and then had to bear imperfect fruits with their body -- but again, Jesus doing so was a gift not a transgression.

Edited by Cog
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