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The Beast From The Sea

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#1
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I've always read and heard that the trio of evil (the red dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast from the earth) found in Revelation 12 and 13 correlate to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet respectively. This would mean that the trio is made up of a demon, a human, and another human.

The red dragon is clearly identified as Satan in Revelation 12:9. The beast from the sea (with 7 heads and 10 horns) is described by John in Revelation 17:8. It says that that the beast was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. That description indicates that at some point before John was given the revelation, the beast "was" (actively doing things). At the time of the revelation, the beast "is not" (actively doing things) with the natural inference being because he was cast into the abyss. I say that because at some point he comes up out of the abyss.

Based on that description, I have difficulty seeing how the beast from the sea can be a human. He would have had to have existed in the first century or before. Also, references to the abyss found in the Bible indicate that it's a holding place or prison for demons. Luke 8:30-32 Revelation 20:2-3 If the beast from the sea comes up out of the abyss, how can he be a human?

We know from Daniel 10 that there are certain demons that influence governments i.e. the prince of Persia, the prince of Greece. It's reasonable to assume that there is also a prince of Rome, a demon that caused the Roman Empire to exercise dominion. It could be that this demon, the prince of Rome, caused Roman greatness and at some point was thrown into the abyss to be held until his release in the end times. This seems to be a better fit for the beast from the sea than a human. It would also explain the need for a "mouthpiece".

I see the trio of evil correlating to Satan, "the prince of Rome", and the false prophet (Antichrist) making it a demon, another demon, and a human.

I would be interested in any scripturally based thoughts on the subject.  Please don't link in websites or copy+paste info.  Always provide a scriptural basis and limit speculation.


Edited by Last Daze, 18 July 2014 - 01:24 PM.

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#2
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Just curious, Why are you opposed to copy and pasting or adding links if that answers your questions?


Beast may also be describing a KINGDOM and not just a person.
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#3
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I've always read and heard that the trio of evil (the red dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast from the earth) found in Revelation 12 and 13 correlate to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet respectively. This would mean that the trio is made up of a demon, a human, and another human.

The red dragon is clearly identified as Satan in Revelation 12:9. The beast from the sea (with 7 heads and 10 horns) is described by John in Revelation 17:8. It says that that the beast was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. That description indicates that at some point before John was given the revelation, the beast "was" (actively doing things). At the time of the revelation, the beast "is not" (actively doing things) with the natural inference being because he was cast into the abyss. I say that because at some point he comes up out of the abyss.

Based on that description, I have difficulty seeing how the beast from the sea can be a human. He would have had to have existed in the first century or before. Also, references to the abyss found in the Bible indicate that it's a holding place or prison for demons. Luke 8:30-32 Revelation 20:2-3 If the beast from the sea comes up out of the abyss, how can he be a human?

We know from Daniel 10 that there are certain demons that influence governments i.e. the prince of Persia, the prince of Greece. It's reasonable to assume that there is also a prince of Rome, a demon that caused the Roman Empire to exercise dominion. It could be that this demon, the prince of Rome, caused Roman greatness and at some point was thrown into the abyss to be held until his release in the end times. This seems to be a better fit for the beast from the sea than a human. It would also explain the need for a "mouthpiece".

I see the trio of evil correlating to Satan, "the prince of Rome", and the false prophet (Antichrist) making it a demon, another demon, and a human.

I would be interested in any scripturally based thoughts on the subject.  Please don't link in websites or copy+paste info.  Always provide a scriptural basis and limit speculation.

Most likely the beasts are two fallen angels and a hybrid.....     demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim so to be functional it would have to have a human body to possess   Since Satan has always been I don't see how it can be the one that was, is not and is to be.   More likely Apollo or Azazel.

 

Not to be tacky but it's kind of bold with only seven posts to come here and start making rules for posting.....   just to let you know my thoughts.


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Just curious, Why are you opposed to copy and pasting or adding links if that answers your questions?


Beast may also be describing a KINGDOM and not just a person.

 

Links etc would be welcomed if I had a question.  I was more interested in discussion.  When someone can state their viewpoint in their own words and provide support it shows they've put some thought in it and it tends to be a more focused discussion.

 

I've not heard of a kingdom coming up out of the abyss.  Is there any support for that?


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Most likely the beasts are two fallen angels and a hybrid.....     demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim so to be functional it would have to have a human body to possess   Since Satan has always been I don't see how it can be the one that was, is not and is to be.   More likely Apollo or Azazel.
 

 

Not to be tacky but it's kind of bold with only seven posts to come here and start making rules for posting.....   just to let you know my thoughts.

 

 

My "rules" for posting only pertain to this thread, of course.  I just find that it helps keep things relevant to the topic.  I don't see them as unreasonable but if you do, let me know.  Its true that I'm new to this forum but not to forums.

 

I know that there's not a lot of info on demons in the Bible but is there anywhere that supports that they are disembodied spirits of nephilim?


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I don't think you will find that acceptable with very many people here. You can start threads but you don't control them. Its one of the reasons this is such a great place. Threads take on a life of there own.
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I don't think you will find that acceptable with very many people here. You can start threads but you don't control them. Its one of the reasons this is such a great place. Threads take on a life of there own.

 

Never meant to insinuate that I controlled the thread.  Just some thoughts for trying to keep it relevent and on-topic.  Obviously, people can do whatever.


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I don't think you will find that acceptable with very many people here. You can start threads but you don't control them. Its one of the reasons this is such a great place. Threads take on a life of there own.

 

Never meant to insinuate that I controlled the thread.  Just some thoughts for trying to keep it relevent and on-topic.  Obviously, people can do whatever.

 

btw welcome and I'm looking forward to getting to know you....   I don't mean to sound like some thread guard dog  LoL.


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#9
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btw welcome and I'm looking forward to getting to know you....   I don't mean to sound like some thread guard dog  LoL.

 

 

Thanks.  I've edited the original post.


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#10
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I've always read and heard that the trio of evil (the red dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast from the earth) found in Revelation 12 and 13 correlate to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet respectively. This would mean that the trio is made up of a demon, a human, and another human.

The red dragon is clearly identified as Satan in Revelation 12:9. The beast from the sea (with 7 heads and 10 horns) is described by John in Revelation 17:8. It says that that the beast was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. That description indicates that at some point before John was given the revelation, the beast "was" (actively doing things). At the time of the revelation, the beast "is not" (actively doing things) with the natural inference being because he was cast into the abyss. I say that because at some point he comes up out of the abyss.

Based on that description, I have difficulty seeing how the beast from the sea can be a human. He would have had to have existed in the first century or before. Also, references to the abyss found in the Bible indicate that it's a holding place or prison for demons. Luke 8:30-32 Revelation 20:2-3 If the beast from the sea comes up out of the abyss, how can he be a human?

We know from Daniel 10 that there are certain demons that influence governments i.e. the prince of Persia, the prince of Greece. It's reasonable to assume that there is also a prince of Rome, a demon that caused the Roman Empire to exercise dominion. It could be that this demon, the prince of Rome, caused Roman greatness and at some point was thrown into the abyss to be held until his release in the end times. This seems to be a better fit for the beast from the sea than a human. It would also explain the need for a "mouthpiece".

I see the trio of evil correlating to Satan, "the prince of Rome", and the false prophet (Antichrist) making it a demon, another demon, and a human.

I would be interested in any scripturally based thoughts on the subject.  Please don't link in websites or copy+paste info.  Always provide a scriptural basis and limit speculation.

 

Since Rev.13:2 with pointers to the beast kingdoms of Dan.7 is used as a descriptor of the first beast that comes up out of the sea of Rev.13:1, and... Jesus revealed in Rev.17:15 that the "waters" represent peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues, it makes that first beast a kingdom beast.

 

But Rev.13:11 foward reveals the second beast "another beast", is a person over that first beast. The first beast has "seven heads" which are "seven mountains" per Rev.17. The beast of Rev.12:3-4 when Satan first rebelled also had "seven heads".

 

When Rev.17 uses the 'beast' metaphor it's more difficult to distinguish between the idea of a beast kingdom vs. a beast king. But that's what must be done in order to know what those passages in Rev.17 are talking about. The subject between the two different beast types changes quickly there.

 

Notice in Rev.19:20 the false prophet wrought miracles and deceived, which is what the 2nd beast ("another beast") of Rev.13:11 does, making both of them the same one. The beast in Rev.19:20 is shown as separate from the false prophet though, which could only then apply to the 1st beast, a kingdom. Especially notice... both of those go into the "lake of fire" at the START of Christ's thousand years reign, but not the dragon (Satan).

 

As of today, and even all the way to the end of Christ's future thousand years reign, no flesh man is judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire". That will only occur at the end of Christ's thousand years reign. Right now only Satan and his angels have been judged and sentenced to perish already, none others have yet.

 

So who is that "false prophet" of Rev.19:20, because it cannot be any flesh man? That also applies to the 2nd beast ("another beast") of Rev.13:11 forward. The reality is that false prophet is... Satan, as he also is that "another beast" who works those miracles in the sight of men on earth. The false prophet and 2nd beast are 'roles' that Satan will play for the end, and those roles along with the beast kingdom will be destroyed in the "lake of fire" at Christ's coming, but not the dragon (Satan) yet.


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#11
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Since Rev.13:2 with pointers to the beast kingdoms of Dan.7 is used as a descriptor of the first beast that comes up out of the sea of Rev.13:1, and... Jesus revealed in Rev.17:15 that the "waters" represent peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues, it makes that first beast a kingdom beast.

 

But Rev.13:11 foward reveals the second beast "another beast", is a person over that first beast. The first beast has "seven heads" which are "seven mountains" per Rev.17. The beast of Rev.12:3-4 when Satan first rebelled also had "seven heads".

 

When Rev.17 uses the 'beast' metaphor it's more difficult to distinguish between the idea of a beast kingdom vs. a beast king. But that's what must be done in order to know what those passages in Rev.17 are talking about. The subject between the two different beast types changes quickly there.

 

Notice in Rev.19:20 the false prophet wrought miracles and deceived, which is what the 2nd beast ("another beast") of Rev.13:11 does, making both of them the same one. The beast in Rev.19:20 is shown as separate from the false prophet though, which could only then apply to the 1st beast, a kingdom. Especially notice... both of those go into the "lake of fire" at the START of Christ's thousand years reign, but not the dragon (Satan).

 

As of today, and even all the way to the end of Christ's future thousand years reign, no flesh man is judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire". That will only occur at the end of Christ's thousand years reign. Right now only Satan and his angels have been judged and sentenced to perish already, none others have yet.

 

So who is that "false prophet" of Rev.19:20, because it cannot be any flesh man? That also applies to the 2nd beast ("another beast") of Rev.13:11 forward. The reality is that false prophet is... Satan, as he also is that "another beast" who works those miracles in the sight of men on earth. The false prophet and 2nd beast are 'roles' that Satan will play for the end, and those roles along with the beast kingdom will be destroyed in the "lake of fire" at Christ's coming, but not the dragon (Satan) yet.

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject Salty.

 

Daniel 10 gives us a glimpse into the anatomy of certain kingdoms.  I think this applies to at least the four beast kingdoms in Daniel 7 and probably the seven heads of the dragon, Satan, as well.  There are certain demons, the prince of Persia, prince of Greece, etc. that grant dominion to earthly kingdoms.  Daniel 7:12 indicates that there's a "dominion" that's separate from the kingdom. So you have...demon comes on the scene...earthly kingdom forms...demon is taken away...earthly kingdom starts its decline.  At some point, the prince of Rome was taken away and cast into the abyss, a holding place of demons.  I see Revelation 13:1 as this demon coming back up out of the abyss.  Since all of the deception of wickedness is brought to bear in the last days, its reasonable to assume that the demon princes of Babylon, Persia, and Greece will all be involved.  The symbology of this beast (Rev 13:2) having seven heads and ten horns and characteristics of the first three beasts in Daniel 7 indicates their involvement.  Satan gives this beast his power, throne and great authority (symbolized by the 7 heads and 10 horns); the demon princes likewise give what they have (symbolized by the mix of animals).  I think that's why this beast(kingdom) is described in Daniel 7 as different from the rest, dreadful, terrifying, and extremely strong.  The only reason that I can think of why Satan would ever give such to anyone at anytime is that this demon is in a unique place to influence world affairs and Satan realizes that his time is short; he basically has no other choice.  It's an "all-in" situation.

I see the sea that this beast comes up out of as different from the "waters" that the harlot sits on.  The sea, because of its seemingly endless depth would be a fitting metaphor for the abyss.  Compare Romans 10:6,7 with Deuteronomy 30:12,13.  The comparison, while not an exact parallel, is compelling.  The "sea" and the "waters" are mentioned in two different contexts as well.  The first (Rev 13:1) I see as where the demon is coming up out of the abyss.  The second (Rev 17) is in reference to the harlot and her judgment.  While I believe that they are the same beast, the descriptions vary slightly which I believe is for contextual emphesis.  That's why I feel that the "waters" is different from the "sea".

One of the differences between Satan's 7/10 and the beast's 7/10 is that Satan's crowns are on the 7 heads and the beast's crowns are on the 10 horns.  The seven heads are seven mountains (kingdoms) and seven kings per Rev 17.  I see this as seven risings of demonic influence and seven resulting kingships.  Its not unusual for mountains to describe kingdoms, as in the great statue (Daniel 2:35,44).  Satan, being the grand poobah of demons, expresses his authority through these seven heads (kingdoms) and thus the crowns.  The beast from the sea works through ten leaders to demonstrate his authority by destroy the world's capital per Rev 17 so that's why he has crowns on the horns.  Then there's the beast that comes up out of the earth.  He exercises all the authority of the beast from the abyss with a qualifier..."in his presence".  Coming out of the earth seems to indicate that he's a human, and performing great signs and wonders in the presence of the first beast indicates that he's a channel for supernatural displays of power.  Like you, I also see this beast as the false prophet.  I also see him as the man of sin in 2 Thess 2, and who people refer to as the Antichrist.

I know that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels per Matt 25:41, and like you mentioned, after the thousand year reign of Christ the "goats" are cast into the lake of fire.  But what would preclude a human (the false prophet) from being judged at the return of Christ and cast immediately into the lake of fire?  We're not talking about an ordinary, run of the mill human after all.  He would be a "first fruits" of sorts.

I've never heard of "roles" or "kingdoms" going into the lake of fire.  Roles seem a bit abstract.  The demons responsible for the rise of kingdoms going into the lake of fire I can grasp, but the kingdoms themselves I've not heard of.  I know there's not a lot of info on demons in the Bible and we're left to fill in some blanks but I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.


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#12
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I know that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels per Matt 25:41, and like you mentioned, after the thousand year reign of Christ the "goats" are cast into the lake of fire.  But what would preclude a human (the false prophet) from being judged at the return of Christ and cast immediately into the lake of fire?  We're not talking about an ordinary, run of the mill human after all.  He would be a "first fruits" of sorts.

I've never heard of "roles" or "kingdoms" going into the lake of fire.  Roles seem a bit abstract.  The demons responsible for the rise of kingdoms going into the lake of fire I can grasp, but the kingdoms themselves I've not heard of.  I know there's not a lot of info on demons in the Bible and we're left to fill in some blanks but I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

 

 

Where the idea of roles comes from is because no flesh man is judged and sentenced to the lake of fire until after Christ's thousand years reign. There is no Scripture to show otherwise, so that's a hard Biblical fact we can rely on. At this point today, Scripture reveals that only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish, which is why the idea of 'perdition' is one of Satan's titles (Apollyon in Rev.9).

 

Because we're shown the false prophet goes into the "lake of fire" at the start... of Christ's thousand years reign, we can be certain that role will not be played by any flesh born man, because of the above time of judgment. Another connection with this idea of who has already been judged and sentenced is how our Lord Jesus gives us clues as to the Antichrist's identity, showing us he will not be any flesh man.

 

The idea that the coming Antichrist for the end of this world must be some flesh man is actually a tradition from men. It's based on their own ideas of who or what the Antichrist should be, not really bothering to align with certain Biblical points, this judgment/sentencing point being just one of them.

 

Another Biblical point their flesh Antichrist idea does't align with is the great signs, wonders, and miracles he is to work to cause the majority of the whole world to believe on him in place of Christ. This is a very specific Biblical point, because it was declared 3 times for emphasis about the level of deceptive power he will do that no flesh man on earth has ever done (excepting our Lord Jesus at His 1st coming). But the majority just skip this Biblical requirement of the prophecy in favor of playing the flesh Antichrist roulette wheel.


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#13
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Did you know that during the ceremony of our presidents taking the oath of office, at a temple not far away, the 33 degree Masons hold a ritual to resurrect the spirit of Osiris to indwell the president and lead the country.

 

That the fresco on the bottom of the capitol dome is actually picturing the deification of President Washington and him rising to be with the old Pagan Gods.

 

Satan and his band are deeply imbedded in our government.


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#14
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Did you know that during the ceremony of our presidents taking the oath of office, at a temple not far away, the 33 degree Masons hold a ritual to resurrect the spirit of Osiris to indwell the president and lead the country.

 

That the fresco on the bottom of the capitol dome is actually picturing the deification of President Washington and him rising to be with the old Pagan Gods.

 

Satan and his band are deeply imbedded in our government.

 

Satan and his workers have been deeply embedded in all major nations since the tower of Babel and the beginning of pagan worship in ancient Sumer-Babylonia. Even Judas Iscariot was one of their's if you look into it deeper Biblically. In Judges 2 & 3 God said He would leave the remnants of the Canaanites to live among Israel to test His people, to see if they would follow Him or not. That is the "mystery of iniquity" Paul mentioned, and the "many antichrists" of John. It is the "certain men crept in unawares" subject of Jude 1.


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Where the idea of roles comes from is because no flesh man is judged and sentenced to the lake of fire until after Christ's thousand years reign. There is no Scripture to show otherwise, so that's a hard Biblical fact we can rely on. At this point today, Scripture reveals that only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish, which is why the idea of 'perdition' is one of Satan's titles (Apollyon in Rev.9).

 

Because we're shown the false prophet goes into the "lake of fire" at the start... of Christ's thousand years reign, we can be certain that role will not be played by any flesh born man, because of the above time of judgment. Another connection with this idea of who has already been judged and sentenced is how our Lord Jesus gives us clues as to the Antichrist's identity, showing us he will not be any flesh man.

 

The idea that the coming Antichrist for the end of this world must be some flesh man is actually a tradition from men. It's based on their own ideas of who or what the Antichrist should be, not really bothering to align with certain Biblical points, this judgment/sentencing point being just one of them.

 

Another Biblical point their flesh Antichrist idea does't align with is the great signs, wonders, and miracles he is to work to cause the majority of the whole world to believe on him in place of Christ. This is a very specific Biblical point, because it was declared 3 times for emphasis about the level of deceptive power he will do that no flesh man on earth has ever done (excepting our Lord Jesus at His 1st coming). But the majority just skip this Biblical requirement of the prophecy in favor of playing the flesh Antichrist roulette wheel.

 

 

Again, is there any scripture that would preclude the judgment of a human (false prophet) at the return of Christ and and have him thrown immediately into the lake of fire...something to the effect of "no human shall enter the lake of fire until after the 1000 years"?  Now THAT would be a hard biblical fact we could rely on.  The mere omission of it does not make it a fact by any means.  Revelation 19:11 reads: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war."  Clearly He is a righteous executioner and judge and if he sees fit to judge the human false prophet on the spot and cast him into the lake of fire then that's what he'll do, and the way I see it, that's what he does.

 

What there's no scripture to show is a kingdom coming up out of the abyss, or a role or kingdom getting tossed into the lake of fire, at least I haven't found any.

 

Why do you not think that a demon could use a human to channel supernatural power?  Something supernatural was going on in Egypt about plague time with their magicians.  The fact that it hasn't happened in a while doesn't mean that it can't happen again.  The demonic prince from the abyss is given a mouthpiece, the false prophet.  The false prophet performs great signs and wonders in the presence of the demon prince, a point made three times.  Sounds like channelling to me.


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#16
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    I've played guitar for many years. I enjoy mixing music in Pro Tools, and doing instrumental writing. If you have a Christian song you'd like mixed PM me, I do a lot of free work.

 

Where the idea of roles comes from is because no flesh man is judged and sentenced to the lake of fire until after Christ's thousand years reign. There is no Scripture to show otherwise, so that's a hard Biblical fact we can rely on. At this point today, Scripture reveals that only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish, which is why the idea of 'perdition' is one of Satan's titles (Apollyon in Rev.9).

 

Because we're shown the false prophet goes into the "lake of fire" at the start... of Christ's thousand years reign, we can be certain that role will not be played by any flesh born man, because of the above time of judgment. Another connection with this idea of who has already been judged and sentenced is how our Lord Jesus gives us clues as to the Antichrist's identity, showing us he will not be any flesh man.

 

The idea that the coming Antichrist for the end of this world must be some flesh man is actually a tradition from men. It's based on their own ideas of who or what the Antichrist should be, not really bothering to align with certain Biblical points, this judgment/sentencing point being just one of them.

 

Another Biblical point their flesh Antichrist idea does't align with is the great signs, wonders, and miracles he is to work to cause the majority of the whole world to believe on him in place of Christ. This is a very specific Biblical point, because it was declared 3 times for emphasis about the level of deceptive power he will do that no flesh man on earth has ever done (excepting our Lord Jesus at His 1st coming). But the majority just skip this Biblical requirement of the prophecy in favor of playing the flesh Antichrist roulette wheel.

 

 

Again, is there any scripture that would preclude the judgment of a human (false prophet) at the return of Christ and and have him thrown immediately into the lake of fire...something to the effect of "no human shall enter the lake of fire until after the 1000 years"?  Now THAT would be a hard biblical fact we could rely on.  The mere omission of it does not make it a fact by any means.  Revelation 19:11 reads: "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war."  Clearly He is a righteous executioner and judge and if he sees fit to judge the human false prophet on the spot and cast him into the lake of fire then that's what he'll do, and the way I see it, that's what he does.

 

What there's no scripture to show is a kingdom coming up out of the abyss, or a role or kingdom getting tossed into the lake of fire, at least I haven't found any.

 

Why do you not think that a demon could use a human to channel supernatural power?  Something supernatural was going on in Egypt about plague time with their magicians.  The fact that it hasn't happened in a while doesn't mean that it can't happen again.  The demonic prince from the abyss is given a mouthpiece, the false prophet.  The false prophet performs great signs and wonders in the presence of the demon prince, a point made three times.  Sounds like channelling to me.

 

 

Our Lord Jesus showed us when the Judgment is for those born in the flesh; it's after His thousand years reign. He also showed us that the prince of this world has already been judged, and that the lake of fire is prepared for him and his angels. So why would you need more in order to believe that?


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#17
Last Daze

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Our Lord Jesus showed us when the Judgment is for those born in the flesh; it's after His thousand years reign. He also showed us that the prince of this world has already been judged, and that the lake of fire is prepared for him and his angels. So why would you need more in order to believe that?

 

 

Because you haven't supported your assumption that "no flesh shall be judged before the end of the 1000 years", an assumption that has led to at least these four points (if I understand what you're saying correctly) which you've also not provided support for:

  1. Kingdoms rise up out of the abyss.
  2. Kingdoms will be cast into the lake of fire.
  3. The role that a demon may take on is an entity that is separate and distinct from the demon.
  4. Such "role" will be cast into the lake of fire.

When an interpretation is offered that isn't supported I find that problematic.


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#18
ARGOSY

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I've always read and heard that the trio of evil (the red dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast from the earth) found in Revelation 12 and 13 correlate to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet respectively. This would mean that the trio is made up of a demon, a human, and another human.

The red dragon is clearly identified as Satan in Revelation 12:9. The beast from the sea (with 7 heads and 10 horns) is described by John in Revelation 17:8. It says that that the beast was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. That description indicates that at some point before John was given the revelation, the beast "was" (actively doing things). At the time of the revelation, the beast "is not" (actively doing things) with the natural inference being because he was cast into the abyss. I say that because at some point he comes up out of the abyss.

 

 

 

The precedent for some symbols in Revelation can be found in Daniel. This is especially true when comparing Daniel 7 with Revelation 13.  Both mention the leopard, the lion, the bear and the great beast, and yet in Daniel 7 these are described as four kingdoms. Daniel 8 also associates large animals with kingdoms/empires. Daniel 7 and 8 also give us insight into the nature of horns, horns being smaller divisions of a greater region/empire.

 

I personally feel its safe to conclude the two beasts of Revelation 13 are two kingdoms/empires, given the precedent set in Daniel 7 and 8.  

 

Taking this symbolism and applying it to Rev 17, we see that the beast with the ten divisions (ten horns) arose from the bottomless pit, which is normally seen as a dark demonic place. This kingdom was and is not, which means the kingdom had ceased to exist when Revelation was written.  So to define the beast out of the sea, we must look for a country that had disappeared by the end of the first century AD, and yet would re-arise from a dark demonic place.  Its possible that this is mere symbolism for the country arising out of the depths of despair (a deep dark place). It is also possible that this dark demonic place is symbolic of this country re-arising via motives of a dark and demonic religion (something like freemasonry).  Freemasonry specifically wishes to rebuild the temple, their rituals closely related to "Solomon's temple" , and yet their rituals also being secretive and full of religious connotations. 

 

So to define this beast empire, we must look for a country that had disappeared, and yet re-appears. Its re-appearing must be expected by believers, but is a shock to the rest of the world (ref Rev 17:8).  This country could arise from the depths of despair, or possibly from the motivation of a dark secretive religion.  It arises from the sea, which traditionally refers to the Mediterranean Sea.


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#19
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The precedent for some symbols in Revelation can be found in Daniel. This is especially true when comparing Daniel 7 with Revelation 13.  Both mention the leopard, the lion, the bear and the great beast, and yet in Daniel 7 these are described as four kingdoms. Daniel 8 also associates large animals with kingdoms/empires. Daniel 7 and 8 also give us insight into the nature of horns, horns being smaller divisions of a greater region/empire.

 

I personally feel its safe to conclude the two beasts of Revelation 13 are two kingdoms/empires, given the precedent set in Daniel 7 and 8.  

 

Taking this symbolism and applying it to Rev 17, we see that the beast with the ten divisions (ten horns) arose from the bottomless pit, which is normally seen as a dark demonic place. This kingdom was and is not, which means the kingdom had ceased to exist when Revelation was written.  So to define the beast out of the sea, we must look for a country that had disappeared by the end of the first century AD, and yet would re-arise from a dark demonic place.  Its possible that this is mere symbolism for the country arising out of the depths of despair (a deep dark place). It is also possible that this dark demonic place is symbolic of this country re-arising via motives of a dark and demonic religion (something like freemasonry).  Freemasonry specifically wishes to rebuild the temple, their rituals closely related to "Solomon's temple" , and yet their rituals also being secretive and full of religious connotations. 

 

So to define this beast empire, we must look for a country that had disappeared, and yet re-appears. Its re-appearing must be expected by believers, but is a shock to the rest of the world (ref Rev 17:8).  This country could arise from the depths of despair, or possibly from the motivation of a dark secretive religion.  It arises from the sea, which traditionally refers to the Mediterranean Sea.

 

 

Again, is there any precedent for kingdoms coming up out of the abyss or being thrown into the lake of fire, any mention of it in the Bible?  There is for demons being cast into and released from the abyss.  That's why I identify the beast from the sea as a demon and not a human or kingdom or anything else.  I understand the symbolism of Daniel 7 and agree that it is reflected in the description of that beast, along with the seven heads and ten horns of Satan.  We know from Daniel 10 that certain kingdoms  are influenced into a position of dominion by certain demons.  The symbology in Rev 13:1 reflects the involvement of Satan and the first three beasts in Daniel 7.  The same demon that caused Rome to exercise dominion is the one that comes up out of the sea.  His kingdom starts off as the feet of iron and clay and then at some point, ten leaders briefly take over, followed by the rise of the false prophet (Antichrist).

 

Whether freemasonry will be involved or not, I have no idea.


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#20
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The precedent for some symbols in Revelation can be found in Daniel. This is especially true when comparing Daniel 7 with Revelation 13.  Both mention the leopard, the lion, the bear and the great beast, and yet in Daniel 7 these are described as four kingdoms. Daniel 8 also associates large animals with kingdoms/empires. Daniel 7 and 8 also give us insight into the nature of horns, horns being smaller divisions of a greater region/empire.

 

I personally feel its safe to conclude the two beasts of Revelation 13 are two kingdoms/empires, given the precedent set in Daniel 7 and 8.  

 

Taking this symbolism and applying it to Rev 17, we see that the beast with the ten divisions (ten horns) arose from the bottomless pit, which is normally seen as a dark demonic place. This kingdom was and is not, which means the kingdom had ceased to exist when Revelation was written.  So to define the beast out of the sea, we must look for a country that had disappeared by the end of the first century AD, and yet would re-arise from a dark demonic place.  Its possible that this is mere symbolism for the country arising out of the depths of despair (a deep dark place). It is also possible that this dark demonic place is symbolic of this country re-arising via motives of a dark and demonic religion (something like freemasonry).  Freemasonry specifically wishes to rebuild the temple, their rituals closely related to "Solomon's temple" , and yet their rituals also being secretive and full of religious connotations. 

 

So to define this beast empire, we must look for a country that had disappeared, and yet re-appears. Its re-appearing must be expected by believers, but is a shock to the rest of the world (ref Rev 17:8).  This country could arise from the depths of despair, or possibly from the motivation of a dark secretive religion.  It arises from the sea, which traditionally refers to the Mediterranean Sea.

 

 

Again, is there any precedent for kingdoms coming up out of the abyss or being thrown into the lake of fire, any mention of it in the Bible?  There is for demons being cast into and released from the abyss.  That's why I identify the beast from the sea as a demon and not a human or kingdom or anything else.  I understand the symbolism of Daniel 7 and agree that it is reflected in the description of that beast, along with the seven heads and ten horns of Satan.  We know from Daniel 10 that certain kingdoms  are influenced into a position of dominion by certain demons.  The symbology in Rev 13:1 reflects the involvement of Satan and the first three beasts in Daniel 7.  The same demon that caused Rome to exercise dominion is the one that comes up out of the sea.  His kingdom starts off as the feet of iron and clay and then at some point, ten leaders briefly take over, followed by the rise of the false prophet (Antichrist).

 

Whether freemasonry will be involved or not, I have no idea.

 

 

Revelation is full of symbols and I did give you some indication of ways to see kingdoms as arising from the bottomless pit. Yet you still appear to object, do you feel its impossible to have imagery in the way I have described?  Like you I do prefer to have precedent, but sometimes there isn't precedent, so we have to look at the symbols themselves.

 

As for being cast into the lake of fire, I believe certain regions will become lakes of fire. This is true of the Jordan/Saudi region of Edom referred to in Isaiah 34:9-10 

 

In addition we see precedent in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 that when human features are given to kingdoms, the prophecy is then referring to the leader of that kingdom. Thus Rev 13 will adjust from referring to a kingdom to referring to an individual who controls that kingdom, and therefore its possible that a particular individual is thrown into the lake of fire.


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