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How does "Matthew 17:21" make sense for those who believe no C

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Seeking1

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How does "Matthew 17:21" make sense for those who believe no Christian can ever have a demon?

 

I have been curious about whether or not a born again Christian can have a demon inside them, or be unknowingly influenced by one from the inside of their bodies and still be born again. When I say "influenced," I mean that a demon can literally control someone's bodily movements, such as giving Satanic hand signals like the 666 hand sign, the El Diablo hand sign, etc (if you don't know what I am taking about, look them up online for your own reference).

 

I have seen so-called Christian leaders doing this in online videos, and I am confident the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus would NEVER lead a person fully right with God (at least not one fully filled with the Holy Ghost) to make these kinds of blasphemous hand signs. It is possible the person may be born again that is doing these signs, but in my mind, there is NO WAY they can be fully right with God. They must either be holding to some false doctrine that is displeasing to God, or they have let evil in somewhere in their lives. 

 

I have some interesting doctrinal questions concerning this.

 

There is an interesting passage in the Bible about getting rid of demons. Here is the account:

 

Matthew 17:14-21 states,

 

14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
 
The last statement, "Howbeit this kind [of demon] goeth not out but by prayer and fasting," provides an interesting conundrum for those who believe no Christian could ever have a devil. If getting rid of a demon is ALWAYS a simple matter of being born again, why would Jesus Christ have ever uttered these words to his disciples? Why wouldn't He have simply stated, "The child must first believe in Me and the power of the gospel so that he can be born again and cleansed?" Remember, Jesus wasn't saying this to the unbelieving Jews, but to His own disciples! He did NOT utter parables to His disciples, but revealed all things to them! He wasn't trying to hide His true teachings from them! These same disciples would go on to later provide the doctrines and practices of the New Testament Church! 
 
Why would Jesus give them wrong or inferior advice which could get used later on in church teachings? If no Christian can ever have a demon, then why would Jesus say to "fast and pray?" "Fasting and praying" sure seems like works salvation if only a person who hasn't been born again is advised to do this! If a Christian is the one doing this, then that charge doesn't stand because it would be to his/her sanctification rather than salvation, since of course, they are already born again. If NO Christian can ever have a devil, why would Jesus Christ utter such a confusing statement? Remember, God says He is NOT the author of confusion. Why would God make things so complicated then for future believers with such a statement? Why not simply say that they must believe the gospel only, and His Holy Spirit will take care of the rest? This makes no sense to me!
 
What do you think of this? I would be glad to hear your opinions! :)

Edited by Seeking1, 18 July 2014 - 09:17 AM.

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#2
OakWood

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This (Matthew 17) is before the Holy Spirit was poured out onto the World, so a lot of it is irrelevant to your points.


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Seeking1

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This (Matthew 17) is before the Holy Spirit was poured out onto the World, so a lot of it is irrelevant to your points.

 

Thank you for your reply, OakWood. So you believe that Matthew 17:21 only applied to times before the first outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, since the Holy Ghost hadn't been provided yet at that time? You may be correct, although the Bible never directly says this, but I guess it could definitely be implied. So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious :)


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FresnoJoe

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Was The Fellow Who Jesus Cured A Believer?

 

You Think?


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#5
other one

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It's complicated and I'm not into writing books on here that no one would take the time to read....   but if you're really interested:::

 

 

"Spiritual  Warfare  Christians, Demonization and Deliverance"  by Dr. Karl I. Payne goes into great detail.

 

Standing toe to toe doesn't always come out the way you want it to if a lot of things in your life are not right....  I would suggest reading this book before you start demanding demons around.


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Sevenseas

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It simply is not true that demons cannot bother or harrass a Christian.  Possession?  I don't think so....but that leaves plenty of room

 

Ephesians 6  is not warning non-saved people to be aware of the devil and his operations

 

I would go further, actually, and state that I am of the opinion that a Christian can have a demon or demonic problem that does need to be

cast out in the name of Jesus.  I've seen it...that does not mean possession

 

However, the devil can operate with far more freedom than many saved people may believe

 

It's a big subject if one takes the time to study it


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This (Matthew 17) is before the Holy Spirit was poured out onto the World, so a lot of it is irrelevant to your points.

 

Thank you for your reply, OakWood. So you believe that Matthew 17:21 only applied to times before the first outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, since the Holy Ghost hadn't been provided yet at that time? You may be correct, although the Bible never directly says this, but I guess it could definitely be implied. So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious :)

 

 

I'm not sure if a truly born again Christian could ever be influenced from the inside by a devil but we have a current thread that is already discussing this which I haven't really looked at much myself. You may find some answers there:

 

http://www.worthychr...demons-in-them/


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How does "Matthew 17:21" make sense for those who believe no Christian can ever have a demon?

 

I have been curious about whether or not a born again Christian can have a demon inside them, or be unknowingly influenced by one from the inside of their bodies and still be born again. When I say "influenced," I mean that a demon can literally control someone's bodily movements, such as giving Satanic hand signals like the 666 hand sign, the El Diablo hand sign, etc (if you don't know what I am taking about, look them up online for your own reference).

 

I have seen so-called Christian leaders doing this in online videos, and I am confident the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus would NEVER lead a person fully right with God (at least not one fully filled with the Holy Ghost) to make these kinds of blasphemous hand signs. It is possible the person may be born again that is doing these signs, but in my mind, there is NO WAY they can be fully right with God. They must either be holding to some false doctrine that is displeasing to God, or they have let evil in somewhere in their lives. 

 

I have some interesting doctrinal questions concerning this.

 

There is an interesting passage in the Bible about getting rid of demons. Here is the account:

 

Matthew 17:14-21 states,

 

14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
 
The last statement, "Howbeit this kind [of demon] goeth not out but by prayer and fasting," provides an interesting conundrum for those who believe no Christian could ever have a devil. If getting rid of a demon is ALWAYS a simple matter of being born again, why would Jesus Christ have ever uttered these words to his disciples? Why wouldn't He have simply stated, "The child must first believe in Me and the power of the gospel so that he can be born again and cleansed?" Remember, Jesus wasn't saying this to the unbelieving Jews, but to His own disciples! He did NOT utter parables to His disciples, but revealed all things to them! He wasn't trying to hide His true teachings from them! These same disciples would go on to later provide the doctrines and practices of the New Testament Church! 
 
Why would Jesus give them wrong or inferior advice which could get used later on in church teachings? If no Christian can ever have a demon, then why would Jesus say to "fast and pray?" "Fasting and praying" sure seems like works salvation if only a person who hasn't been born again is advised to do this! If a Christian is the one doing this, then that charge doesn't stand because it would be to his/her sanctification rather than salvation, since of course, they are already born again. If NO Christian can ever have a devil, why would Jesus Christ utter such a confusing statement? Remember, God says He is NOT the author of confusion. Why would God make things so complicated then for future believers with such a statement? Why not simply say that they must believe the gospel only, and His Holy Spirit will take care of the rest? This makes no sense to me!
 
What do you think of this? I would be glad to hear your opinions! :)

 

 

Good point you are making there.

It's not a confusing statement by Jesus, as you already pointed out God is not the author of confusion. We are the ones who make it complicated because we refuse to believe what God has said and what God has done and wants us to do:

 

Mark 16:15-18

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

 

These are the signs Jesus said should follow ALL true believers. He was commanding us to cast OUT demons, He didn't say cast away from on top or brush off etc. It's taken out of somebody!

And yes, demons for the most part indwell people. That's where they are hiding, in the body and the soul of a person and that doesn't matter if they are saved or not. Demons come in through sin and they do not make a difference between a believer and unbeliever. A believer's spirit is the part of a person that is "saved" born again, new nature. The soul (mind, will and emotions) as well as the body have to be submitted to that. That's why it says in Rom 12:2 to renew your mind and also that the scriptures tell us to submit our bodies as a holy temple, etc... So the point of possession of a believer cannot be his spirt, that's true, but he can still be possessed by an evil spirit in his soul and body, those are the areas of attack and mostly  will manifest by hearing voices, being tormented in mind and emotions and then sickness in the body.
So Jesus tells us to set people free from these things, that's what the whole gospel about, not only salvation. (Luke 4:18). He said He came to destroy the works of the devil and greater things than He did we should do!

Unfortunately most churches nowadays totally ignore this or don't want to have anything to do with this, for the most part for fear of losing tithers in their congregations and not to upset or offend anybody and various other reasons.
 

As far as casting out of demons from people I can say this: It's almost not possible, let alone useless and futile to cast demons out of anybody that is not saved and under most circumstances not recommended at all. First of all demons have a right to be where they are at in a person because of sin. Sin needs to be repented before God and then this sin renounced, before they can be successfully cast out. If in rare circumstances they actually would leave out of an unbeliever, because of the anointing of the one casting them out, they would come right back in if the person has not removed that right and filled that space with the Holy Spirit. That's when Jesus is taking about the 7 times worse state of a person than before. It would just make things worse for the unbeliever, they would not be able to keep the demons out that just left unless they become believers right afterwards.


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#9
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Darkness cannot dwell where there is light. A demon would not want to get in the same body as The Son of God. I have heard this conversation before, the demons left. The empty house does need to be filled with light though.
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#10
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Does it matter whether they are inside or outside the body when they are messing with you?

I have seen way more than enough scripture that can be interpreted as from the inside not to leave it as a possibility.
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#11
OneLight

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    I really enjoy discussing the Bible. There is so much to learn and so much to share.

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There is a difference between being oppressed and possessed.  Anyone can be oppressed when satans demons try to cause harm and discouragement, hoping to turn people away from God.  Being possessed is a whole different story.  Demons cannot live in the same house (body) as the Spirit of God.  If they could, that would mean that they are as powerful, or more powerful, than God.  When we become His, He seals us with His Spirit.  Once sealed, nothing can get in. So the question from me to everyone is, who is more powerful, God or demons?
 
Ephesians 1:13-14

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


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#12
Seeking1

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There is a difference between being oppressed and possessed.  Anyone can be oppressed when satans demons try to cause harm and discouragement, hoping to turn people away from God.  Being possessed is a whole different story.  Demons cannot live in the same house (body) as the Spirit of God.  If they could, that would mean that they are as powerful, or more powerful, than God.  When we become His, He seals us with His Spirit.  Once sealed, nothing can get in. So the question from me to everyone is, who is more powerful, God or demons?
 
Ephesians 1:13-14
 

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

 

Hi OneLight, I am actually in sympathy to your position, in spite of my OP question. However, I will now ask you the same question I have asked OakWood: "So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious  :)"

 

Just as a reminder, of what I mean by "influenced," I also ask you the following for clarity: would you believe that the Lord would ever give a demon permission to enter into a born again Christian, even if only temporarily, in order to make blasphemous hand signals like the "666 Sign," "Hooked em horns (El Diablo)," etc. in order to deceive people or to flaunt their influence to those in the know? I have personally seen this happen, but I will not be naming names at this time. I have seen it being done by popular "Christian" leaders in online videos, like from YouTube. I just wanted to get the opinion of others on this. That's why I am asking you this question. 

 

The Bible makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 2:26:

 

"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 

 

It seems only unbelievers could be "taken captive by Satan at his will," at least without God's permission. For a demon to be able to enter into somebody, even temporarily, in order to influence their hand movements seems to be an example of this passage in literal action. I do not believe most of these people doing these evil hand signs even know what is happening to them, that they are being influenced by a devil from the inside. I do not believe these demons inhabit most of these people all the time, but only temporarily as they are "needed" to deliver false teachings or to do other kinds of evil. I believe most of them do not have "familiar spirits" sticking around, but these demons instead go right into their bodies and right back out again. I do not believe God has given them permission to stay inside that person, even if unsaved, but only for a brief time.

 

For some of these people, I could see this as simply being a work of the flesh in ignorance, but I know God did NOT inspire them to do these hand signs for a fact, regardless. To me, they CANNOT be Spirit filled! Also, I have discovered devils really are behind many of these hand signs, though, in part by doing some research online about Satanic symbolism. It isn't a stretch to say that actual demons are behind at least some of the people making these signs in online videos. Assuming it is indeed demons behind the people making these hand signs, would you question that person's salvation? Again, could a born again Christian ever be influenced by a demon is this way? For those who say NO true Christian can ever have a demon, I would be interested to hear your response to this question, like a survey. Thanks!


Edited by Seeking1, 01 September 2014 - 08:50 PM.

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#13
OneLight

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There is a difference between being oppressed and possessed.  Anyone can be oppressed when satans demons try to cause harm and discouragement, hoping to turn people away from God.  Being possessed is a whole different story.  Demons cannot live in the same house (body) as the Spirit of God.  If they could, that would mean that they are as powerful, or more powerful, than God.  When we become His, He seals us with His Spirit.  Once sealed, nothing can get in. So the question from me to everyone is, who is more powerful, God or demons?
 
Ephesians 1:13-14
 

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 
Hi OneLight, I am actually in sympathy to your position, in spite of my OP question. However, I will now ask you the same question I have asked OakWood: "So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious  :)"


Influenced on the inside would include thoughts of the mind and feelings, neither which are possession. Oppression causes both feelings and thoughts of the negative nature, which is not of God, but of the flesh or satan. To say that oppression does not influence how one thinks or feels would be untrue. WHat someone does with those feelings and thoughts is where He comes in. God never gives us more then we can stand with His help. The true question is do we accept His help during these times?
 

Just as a reminder, of what I mean by "influenced," I also ask you the following for clarity: would you believe that the Lord would ever give a demon permission to enter into a born again Christian, even if only temporarily, in order to make blasphemous hand signals like the "666 Sign," "Hooked em horns (El Diablo)," etc. in order to deceive people or to flaunt their influence to those in the know? I have personally seen this happen, but I will not be naming names at this time. I have seen it being done by popular "Christian" leaders in online videos, like from YouTube. I just wanted to get the opinion of others on this. That's why I am asking you this question.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and Jesus said He would never leave nor forsake us. Why would Jesus ever give one of His children over to Satan in order to advertise the enemies work? The answer is a blatant NO.
 

The Bible makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 2:26:
 
"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

You only post one verse out of all the context. Why? Let's see how it look in context.

2 Timothy 2:14-26
 

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

So, what is being discussed is false teaching, not uncontrolled or unwilling hand singles. You would do good to keep a verse in the context it was designed to be in and not try to make it =mean what it does not.
 

It seems only unbelievers could be "taken captive by Satan at his will," at least without God's permission. For a demon to be able to enter into somebody, even temporarily, in order to influence their hand movements seems to be an example of this passage in literal action. I do not believe most of these people doing these evil hand signs even know what is happening to them, that they are being influenced by a devil from the inside. I do not believe these demons inhabit most of these people all the time, but only temporarily as they are "needed" to deliver false teachings or to do other kinds of evil. I believe most of them do not have "familiar spirits" sticking around, but these demons instead go right into their bodies and right back out again. I do not believe God has given them permission to stay inside that person, even if unsaved, but only for a brief time.
 
For some of them, I could see this as simply being a work of the flesh in ignorance, but I know God did NOT inspire them to do these hand signs for a fact, regardless. To me, they CANNOT be Spirit filled! Also, I have discovered devils really are behind many of these hand signs, though, in part by doing some research online about Satanic symbolism. It isn't a stretch to say that actual demons are behind at least some of the people making these signs in online videos. Assuming it is indeed demons behind the people making these hand signs, would you question that person's salvation? Again, could a born again Christian ever be influenced by a demon is this way? For those who say NO true Christian can ever have a demon, I would be interested to hear your response to this question, like a survey. Thanks!

Who are "these people" you talk about? As I mentioned, God will not turn one of His children over to Satan. On the other hand, they may turn away from God and venture down the wrong path, opening them up to demonic activity, but as long as the Holy Spirit is in them, demons cannot enter.

As for people who throw satanic hand signs, they know what they are doing, and they worship their own god, whomever that god may be. They do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They may not know the full consequences of their actions, but they understand they have a choice to do so or not. Demon possessed people in scripture do not live a normal life, nor do they profess Christ. The demons know who Jesus is, and they tremble at His name.

Keep in mind that the title some people use, Christian, has an empty meaning to them. To those who falsely clam to be Christians, we will know them by their fruit.

Luke 6:43-45
 

For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

If a man speaks either good or bad from their heart, they would also use the rest of their body for good or evil. Don't be fooled by what you read on the internet. Search scripture for yourself.
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#14
Seeking1

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There is a difference between being oppressed and possessed.  Anyone can be oppressed when satans demons try to cause harm and discouragement, hoping to turn people away from God.  Being possessed is a whole different story.  Demons cannot live in the same house (body) as the Spirit of God.  If they could, that would mean that they are as powerful, or more powerful, than God.  When we become His, He seals us with His Spirit.  Once sealed, nothing can get in. So the question from me to everyone is, who is more powerful, God or demons?
 
Ephesians 1:13-14
 

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

 
Hi OneLight, I am actually in sympathy to your position, in spite of my OP question. However, I will now ask you the same question I have asked OakWood: "So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious  :)"

 


Influenced on the inside would include thoughts of the mind and feelings, neither which are possession. Oppression causes both feelings and thoughts of the negative nature, which is not of God, but of the flesh or satan. To say that oppression does not influence how one thinks or feels would be untrue. WHat someone does with those feelings and thoughts is where He comes in. God never gives us more then we can stand with His help. The true question is do we accept His help during these times?
 

Just as a reminder, of what I mean by "influenced," I also ask you the following for clarity: would you believe that the Lord would ever give a demon permission to enter into a born again Christian, even if only temporarily, in order to make blasphemous hand signals like the "666 Sign," "Hooked em horns (El Diablo)," etc. in order to deceive people or to flaunt their influence to those in the know? I have personally seen this happen, but I will not be naming names at this time. I have seen it being done by popular "Christian" leaders in online videos, like from YouTube. I just wanted to get the opinion of others on this. That's why I am asking you this question.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and Jesus said He would never leave nor forsake us. Why would Jesus ever give one of His children over to Satan in order to advertise the enemies work? The answer is a blatant NO.
 

The Bible makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 2:26:
 
"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

You only post one verse out of all the context. Why? Let's see how it look in context.

2 Timothy 2:14-26
 

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

So, what is being discussed is false teaching, not uncontrolled or unwilling hand singles. You would do good to keep a verse in the context it was designed to be in and not try to make it =mean what it does not.
 

It seems only unbelievers could be "taken captive by Satan at his will," at least without God's permission. For a demon to be able to enter into somebody, even temporarily, in order to influence their hand movements seems to be an example of this passage in literal action. I do not believe most of these people doing these evil hand signs even know what is happening to them, that they are being influenced by a devil from the inside. I do not believe these demons inhabit most of these people all the time, but only temporarily as they are "needed" to deliver false teachings or to do other kinds of evil. I believe most of them do not have "familiar spirits" sticking around, but these demons instead go right into their bodies and right back out again. I do not believe God has given them permission to stay inside that person, even if unsaved, but only for a brief time.
 
For some of them, I could see this as simply being a work of the flesh in ignorance, but I know God did NOT inspire them to do these hand signs for a fact, regardless. To me, they CANNOT be Spirit filled! Also, I have discovered devils really are behind many of these hand signs, though, in part by doing some research online about Satanic symbolism. It isn't a stretch to say that actual demons are behind at least some of the people making these signs in online videos. Assuming it is indeed demons behind the people making these hand signs, would you question that person's salvation? Again, could a born again Christian ever be influenced by a demon is this way? For those who say NO true Christian can ever have a demon, I would be interested to hear your response to this question, like a survey. Thanks!

Who are "these people" you talk about? As I mentioned, God will not turn one of His children over to Satan. On the other hand, they may turn away from God and venture down the wrong path, opening them up to demonic activity, but as long as the Holy Spirit is in them, demons cannot enter.

As for people who throw satanic hand signs, they know what they are doing, and they worship their own god, whomever that god may be. They do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They may not know the full consequences of their actions, but they understand they have a choice to do so or not. Demon possessed people in scripture do not live a normal life, nor do they profess Christ. The demons know who Jesus is, and they tremble at His name.

Keep in mind that the title some people use, Christian, has an empty meaning to them. To those who falsely clam to be Christians, we will know them by their fruit.

Luke 6:43-45
 

For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

If a man speaks either good or bad from their heart, they would also use the rest of their body for good or evil. Don't be fooled by what you read on the internet. Search scripture for yourself.

 

 

Thank you OneLight for your response. I appreciate your feedback. I am considering your words, and your position makes sense overall. I too would think that God would destroy these kinds of works of the devil within any true Christian indwelt by His Holy Spirit, though I admit I could be wrong, but I really don't think I am either.

 

I agree with your interpretation of 2 Timothy 2:14-26 being about false doctrine overall, but I still think my own idea about 2 Timothy 2:26 is onto something as well. I believe Biblical passages can have more than one application.

 

The Biblical passage in 1 John 4:1-6, to me, implies that God's children would overcome having devils influence them this way from the inside, additionally. I would think that Jesus's work on the cross and the presence of His Holy Spirit would be more than effective against allowing a demon to influence a true Christian bodily in the sense that I described. I believe this is what you implied earlier, when you asked whether Satan is stronger than God, and your interpretation makes good sense to me. 

 

However, in 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, I believe St. Paul did indeed "have" a demon (a messenger of Satan to buffet him as a thorn in the flesh), BUT it may have been making him physically sick from the OUTSIDE of his flesh, NOT controlling his bodily movements from WITHIN, which is what I would tend to believe the classical definition of "having a demon" would entail. I don't think the demon was actually inside the body of St. Paul as it would have been in truly possessed people in the Bible, which is why I put the word "have" above in quotes. 

 

Yet again, for anyone who may be reading this, please do not take my word as gospel or as a final authority! I am a woman, and I have NOT received any absolute answer from God about this, either. I could be wrong, or I could be right. These are just my own thoughts from personal experience and research. Please do your own research and ask God for guidance as well!


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#15
LanceA

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Remember we are a three part being, body, soul and spirit. If we are born again the demon cannot influence out spirit, but if we stray our body and soul can be influenced and oppressed. Can we be possessed? I'm not really sure about this. It is a good discussion because there are so many variables. Is the person actually born again would be my first question.
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#16
other one

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Dr. Karl Payne has been dealing with demonic activity within Christians for many years....   According to him through his experience and I would have to agree,  if a Christian has any unrepentant sin in his/her life, or some sin that is repetitive, a demon can attach himself through that sin and have a great effect on the Christian in many other areas.    And until the sin is dealt with you simply can not deal with the demon for it has the legal right to be there so to speak.


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#17
heartprint

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YOu know what?  I've been a Christian a good many years and never even heard of a satanic hand signal.  I think people need to be more concerned with themselves and less concerned with others. Again, what kind of fruit is this minister bearing? Is he/she preaching the Word and Christ crucified and risen? Salvation? Really?  If you test the teaching and it is sound perhaps you should write the teacher a letter and let them know that you are concerned with the way they wave or greet people or gesture while preaching. Maybe they haven't heard of these "signals" either.


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#18
Warrior777

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Reading some of your comments after my post I wonder if anybody actually read my post :hmmm: ?! I explained several things that were asked here? Just did it briefly without quoting a lot of scripture to back it up, since there was not a lot of time, but if needed I can give scriptural refences to what I said. It's truth and proven with the Word and in the field by experiences.


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#19
Warrior777

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Again: Possession means that a demon has gotten a hold of someone and is "possessing" a part in that person, meaning it has been given the authority to take a hold of a part of the soul or body (for a believer). It cannot possess the spirit of a truly born again, saved person, since that spirit belongs to God but a Christian can be possessed in the other 2 parts of their being. Sin is one way a demon enters a person and the demon has the right (from GOD) to be in that person and to torment that person, until that right is revoked after true repentance and the demon evicted. God allows this to happen so a person will turn from that sin to come back to Him! 

 

1Cor 5:1-5

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[b]

 

This is talking about Christians in Paul's church, where he turns a saved person over to satan so that in time they might repent.

 

Matt 18:34-35

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

This is Jesus himself speaking about the tormentors that God will give you over to for not forgiving.

Just a few examples...


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#20
Warrior777

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Dr. Karl Payne has been dealing with demonic activity within Christians for many years....   According to him through his experience and I would have to agree,  if a Christian has any unrepentant sin in his/her life, or some sin that is repetitive, a demon can attach himself through that sin and have a great effect on the Christian in many other areas.    And until the sin is dealt with you simply can not deal with the demon for it has the legal right to be there so to speak.

 Correct!


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