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Here we go again! Pretribbers, what do you have?

* * * * * 2 votes rapture tribulation pre post second coming revelation pretribulation postribulation

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#1
Omegaman

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The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized.

 

So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about:

 

Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:

 

  • a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation
  • an invisible coming of Jesus for the church
  • a two part second advent
  • a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church

From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture.

 

Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ.

 

To those who want to reply in this thread:

Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.

 

I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.

 

Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

 

Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.

 

To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:

 

  • Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief.
  • Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence.
  • Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation

Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.

 

Thanks in advance


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#2
FresnoJoe

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LOOK

 

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

 

Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

 

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

 

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

 

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luke 21:20-27
 

UP~!

 

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28

 

~

 

Here we go again! Pretribbers, what do you have?

 

:thumbsup:

 

Pre, Mid, Post 

 

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

 

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Matthew 27:50-53

 

They All Have The Resurrection

 

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:22-25

 

Of The Blessed

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:5-6

 

And Beloved, I Am Blessed To Know You All

 

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

 

It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

 

As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion:

 

for there the LORD commanded the blessing,

 

even life for evermore. Psalms 133

 

Amen~!


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#3
other one

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Here we go again! Pretribbers, what do you have?

 

hope?


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#4
OakWood

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:soapbox: :swordfightsmiles:

 

I do enjoy these pre-trib vs. post-trib duels.


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#5
ENOCH2010

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Omegaman knows there is no evidence in the Bible for a pre-trib rapture. All they have is hope.


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#6
Montana Marv

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I don't know of one single verse that pinpoints a mid - trib, pre - wrath or post - trib position.  If God the Father is the only one who knows when the Son (Bridegroom) is coming to retrieve His Bride;  It is not revealed in Scripture.  All I know that is the John 14 says it all.  I go to prepare a place for you in my Fathers House.  I am going there (My Fathers House) to prepare a place for you (us the Bride), and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back (for the Rapture) and take you to be with me, that you maybe where I am (In My Fathers House).  Yet Post -Trib believes we will be with Christ here on earth, not with Him in Heaven.

 

I go by, the First 69 Weeks of Daniel were all about Israel, and so will the 70th Week;  All about Israel,  I do not see the Church mentioned anywhere in the 70 Weeks of Daniel.  I only see Israel and Jerusalem.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


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#7
Floatingaxe

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I don't know of one single verse that pinpoints a mid - trib, pre - wrath or post - trib position.  If God the Father is the only one who knows when the Son (Bridegroom) is coming to retrieve His Bride;  It is not revealed in Scripture.  All I know that is the John 14 says it all.  I go to prepare a place for you in my Fathers House.  I am going there (My Fathers House) to prepare a place for you (us the Bride), and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back (for the Rapture) and take you to be with me, that you maybe where I am (In My Fathers House).  Yet Post -Trib believes we will be with Christ here on earth, not with Him in Heaven.

 

I go by, the First 69 Weeks of Daniel were all about Israel, and so will the 70th Week;  All about Israel,  I do not see the Church mentioned anywhere in the 70 Weeks of Daniel.  I only see Israel and Jerusalem.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Amen, Montana Marv!


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#8
Floatingaxe

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Omegaman knows there is no evidence in the Bible for a pre-trib rapture. All they have is hope.

 

But you do not?


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#9
ENOCH2010

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I have more than hope, I have faith the Lord will deliver me into or out of whatever he wishes. I'm not putting my hope in a pre-trib rapture.


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#10
Floatingaxe

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I have more than hope, I have faith the Lord will deliver me into or out of whatever he wishes. I'm not putting my hope in a pre-trib rapture.

 

Ahhh, but we share the SAME hope, but as believers, we differ about nonessentials.


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#11
ENOCH2010

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There is evidence of the post-trib view, all the scripture about the second coming is the evidence of the post-trib view. This thread is from Omegaman, so I'll be sitting here waiting on the evidence of the pre-trib view.


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#12
OakWood

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I don't know of one single verse that pinpoints a mid - trib, pre - wrath or post - trib position.  If God the Father is the only one who knows when the Son (Bridegroom) is coming to retrieve His Bride;  It is not revealed in Scripture.  All I know that is the John 14 says it all.  I go to prepare a place for you in my Fathers House.  I am going there (My Fathers House) to prepare a place for you (us the Bride), and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back (for the Rapture) and take you to be with me, that you maybe where I am (In My Fathers House).  Yet Post -Trib believes we will be with Christ here on earth, not with Him in Heaven.

 

I go by, the First 69 Weeks of Daniel were all about Israel, and so will the 70th Week;  All about Israel,  I do not see the Church mentioned anywhere in the 70 Weeks of Daniel.  I only see Israel and Jerusalem.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand why that would make your claims valid. Daniel is a Jewish book written for Jews so why would the Church be mentioned in it anyway? Name me one other OT book that mentions Christians and what they will be doing in the future?

If the Church was mentioned then Jews would have cottoned on to the fact that there would be other people around the World worshipping their God and not just them.

Maybe then, they would have accepted Christ, not just as somebody who they believed to have changed Jewish law, but somebody who did so to bring his message to other people who were outside that law.

If that were the case, Jesus would not have been betrayed, would not have died on the cross and his sacrificial mission to bring the gift of salvation would have been in vain.


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#13
Salty

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Ezekiel 40 through 47 shows where... the Father's house is going to be after Christ's return. It will be on earth where Jerusalem is today. The Greek word "mansioins" in John 14 means 'abodes'. It's about the abodes of the priests at the Millennial sanctuary of Ezekiel. In other words, they are NOT... in the clouds. Those abodes are shown on the earth where the Millennial sanctuary will be.


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#14
Floatingaxe

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Those abodes are being prepared as we speak, according to Jesus' own words, in the New Jerusalem which will come down to Earth.


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#15
Montana Marv

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There is evidence of the post-trib view, all the scripture about the second coming is the evidence of the post-trib view. This thread is from Omegaman, so I'll be sitting here waiting on the evidence of the pre-trib view.

Enoch

 

Are you post trib Second Coming  or are you post trib Rapture.  Your quote above is really off the wall.  No substance to it.

 

Who are the 24 Elders in Rev 4 and who do they represent?  Are these Spirits or are they Flesh.  They have crowns (rewards).  When were these given out?

 

I will be looking for your response.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


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#16
Montana Marv

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I don't know of one single verse that pinpoints a mid - trib, pre - wrath or post - trib position.  If God the Father is the only one who knows when the Son (Bridegroom) is coming to retrieve His Bride;  It is not revealed in Scripture.  All I know that is the John 14 says it all.  I go to prepare a place for you in my Fathers House.  I am going there (My Fathers House) to prepare a place for you (us the Bride), and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back (for the Rapture) and take you to be with me, that you maybe where I am (In My Fathers House).  Yet Post -Trib believes we will be with Christ here on earth, not with Him in Heaven.

 

I go by, the First 69 Weeks of Daniel were all about Israel, and so will the 70th Week;  All about Israel,  I do not see the Church mentioned anywhere in the 70 Weeks of Daniel.  I only see Israel and Jerusalem.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand why that would make your claims valid. Daniel is a Jewish book written for Jews so why would the Church be mentioned in it anyway? Name me one other OT book that mentions Christians and what they will be doing in the future?

If the Church was mentioned then Jews would have cottoned on to the fact that there would be other people around the World worshipping their God and not just them.

Maybe then, they would have accepted Christ, not just as somebody who they believed to have changed Jewish law, but somebody who did so to bring his message to other people who were outside that law.

If that were the case, Jesus would not have been betrayed, would not have died on the cross and his sacrificial mission to bring the gift of salvation would have been in vain.

 

What lies between the end of the 69th Week and the beginning of the 70th Week?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv


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#17
OakWood

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I don't know of one single verse that pinpoints a mid - trib, pre - wrath or post - trib position.  If God the Father is the only one who knows when the Son (Bridegroom) is coming to retrieve His Bride;  It is not revealed in Scripture.  All I know that is the John 14 says it all.  I go to prepare a place for you in my Fathers House.  I am going there (My Fathers House) to prepare a place for you (us the Bride), and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back (for the Rapture) and take you to be with me, that you maybe where I am (In My Fathers House).  Yet Post -Trib believes we will be with Christ here on earth, not with Him in Heaven.

 

I go by, the First 69 Weeks of Daniel were all about Israel, and so will the 70th Week;  All about Israel,  I do not see the Church mentioned anywhere in the 70 Weeks of Daniel.  I only see Israel and Jerusalem.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand why that would make your claims valid. Daniel is a Jewish book written for Jews so why would the Church be mentioned in it anyway? Name me one other OT book that mentions Christians and what they will be doing in the future?

If the Church was mentioned then Jews would have cottoned on to the fact that there would be other people around the World worshipping their God and not just them.

Maybe then, they would have accepted Christ, not just as somebody who they believed to have changed Jewish law, but somebody who did so to bring his message to other people who were outside that law.

If that were the case, Jesus would not have been betrayed, would not have died on the cross and his sacrificial mission to bring the gift of salvation would have been in vain.

 

What lies between the end of the 69th Week and the beginning of the 70th Week?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

I don't follow you. Isn't the 70th week the Trib? Daniel would never mention the Church. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to criticise your opinion, I'm trying to understand it.


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#18
OakWood

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A big problem that I have with accepting the pre-Trib rapture.

 

Is prophecy not for those living on this Earth? It's not for the angels, nor is it for those in heaven. It was given by God to man for man's benefit.

 

If you think about it we have access to all the prophecies that the Jews have (because we read the OT). So in theory we should know as much about prophecy as they do.

But we have something that they don't. We have that extra set of clues.

We have the book of Revelation.

If anybody needs the book of Revelation its the Jews, but it was given to us instead.

 

Why on Earth do we need to know about 666, Mystery Babylon and the mark of the Beast if we're not going to be here?

 

Another thing:

 

Now some people claim that the gap in Daniel's 70 weeks symbolises the Church era, so they assume that if weeks 1-69 refer to the Jewish era (before there was a Church) then that must mean that Week 70 must also refer to a Jewish era (without a Church). I can see the logic behind that argument but I read it differently. I see it like this:

 

The Church is never mentioned in the OT because let's face it, the OT was written for Jews, so it's written for their point of view. Hence the book of Daniel will never mention the Church whether the Church exists or not. Of course, the Church didn't exist before Jesus came, but that's not the point - it wouldn't be mentioned anyway.

 

Therefore:

 

Daniel weeks 1-69:   Explained, because it follows a prophetic timeline (Church not mentioned whether it exists or not)

 

Gap:  Not explained - nothing happens. Jewish prophecy is frozen because of the Church era (Church not mentioned whether it exists or not)

 

Daniel Week 70: Explained, because Jewish prophecy starts again (Church not mentioned whether it exists or not)


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#19
Marilyn C

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Hi Oakwood,

 

Brother in the great Commonwealth.

 

Now you have posed a very interesting question -

 

`Why on earth do we need to know about 666, Mystery Babylon & the mark of the Beast if we`re not going to be here?`

 

I have a few comments on this. Firstly the Body of Christ was not known by the prophets of the Old Testament for God didn`t tell them, (obviously). God kept it secret  -

 

`but we speak God`s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden mystery which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;.......`  (1 Cor. 2: 7 & 8) 

 

So God`s wisdom that through Christ there would be another `called out ` group called the Body of Christ. Now for this Body to come to full maturity in Christ (Eph. 4: 13 & 14) & not `tossed to & fro`....we by God`s Holy Spirit need to come into all the truth (John 16: 13 & 14) of Christ, His character & His purposes for 1. the Body of Christ. 2. Israel & 3. the Nations.

 

We are to grow up into Him. This involves knowing Him & what He is doing, for it does involve us. To be seated with Christ on His throne, (Rev. 3: 21) displaces where Lucifer & his order of angels ruled. Then we shall be making judgment upon those fallen angels & upon the world`s system. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) Thus Daniel was shown this court but not told who they are. (Dan.7: 26) To know the eternal purposes of God for the three groups gives a full understanding of Christ & how He is going to deal with all authority & power.

 

Lastly, the book of Revelation is about four aspects of our Lord Jesus Christ, revealed to us by His Father. If we did not have the book of Revelation we would not have a full understanding of Christ & His glorious person in the heavenly realms & how He will deal with man`s rebellion. It is the culmination of all truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose & that is to reveal Christ to us in all His glory.

 

 

(I think you have touched on my favourite subject Oakwood - the Eternal Purposes - hope they encourage & inspire you also.)


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#20
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I don't know of one single verse that pinpoints a mid - trib, pre - wrath or post - trib position.  If God the Father is the only one who knows when the Son (Bridegroom) is coming to retrieve His Bride;  It is not revealed in Scripture.  

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Actually, I think that is a good reply, even if not to the point. It suggests that you do not beleive that the bible indicates, with a single verse, the sequence of those events. So then, you cannot know it is pretrib, not with a single verse at least. Of course, I allowed for a set of verses, that even mentions a pre-trib rapture, or a secret invisible coming etc, and I expect, than none will be forthcoming. However, the fact that the Father only knew (back then 2000 years ago), does not say that no one would ever know, and more to the point, speaks to time, when it will happen, not to sequence, the order that things happen in. Post-tribbers do not claim to know when it will happen, just the order of things that will happen. Now, of course we makes some assumptions also, but when we say, Jesus comes after the tribulation, we can say that with the authority of scripture. I do not know of any verses that say He is returning at some prior time. I think we all know that is an interpretive inference, I am just asking for someone to point out why that inference, is a valid one, from scripture.

 

Thanks Marv, for participating.


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