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World's Capital and the 10 Horns

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#1
Last Daze

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I have some thoughts on the world's capital that I'd like some feedback on.  These thoughts are based on the seven headed, ten horned beast being a demon and the false prophet being a human aka Antichrist.

The ten horns of the seven-headed, ten-horned beast are described as such:

"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12.

What do they do during their short reign?

" And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire." Revelation 17:16

And who is this harlot that they destroy?

"The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:18

There are some interesting observations to make here especially when you tie in the prophecy of the four beasts in Daniel 7:

    The ten horns are not heads of state i.e. they have not yet received a kingdom.
    The ten horns have acquired weapons of mass destruction because they are capable of destroying an entire city with fire.
    A world government is already in place when the ten horns have their short moment of glory. I say that because there's a world capital, a city that reigns over the kings of the earth.

Bring in what we know from Daniel 7 and we can also add the following observations:

    A small horn comes up among the ten horns and uproots (subdues) three of them. Daniel 7:8
    The small horn becomes larger (more powerful) than the other horns after he subdues the three. Daniel 7:20

Based on this, I think its reasonable to conclude the following:

The ten horns work behind the scenes to gain control of the world. At some point, they announce their takeover and destroy the world's capital. Shortly thereafter, the false prophet nullifies their authority. That doesn't sit well with them and three of them bring forces to bear against him. He subdues them.

Knowing that there is an economic aspect to the end times, i.e. the mark required to buy and sell, the takeover by the ten horns will likely be a takeover of the world's economies. This would explain how ten "non heads of state" could control the world and how their authority could easily be usurped by one person.

The world's capital is described as:

And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." Revelation 17:15

"'for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’" Revelation 18:17-18

Based on these verses, the world's capital is a port city that appears to be a melting pot of sorts.

I've been considering the notion that the final world government starts off as the feet of iron and clay in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2, an imagery that could easily describe the current U.N. which would make the world's capital New York City.  Thoughts?



#2
Cletus

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Some say new york, others say it will be in iraq, and others say Jerusalem because the antichrist will commit the abomonation of desolation. I know only a few blocks from ground zero there is/was a street with the word babylon in its name. I saw the street sign. I have given up trying to figure out which city it is because the way I figure, if I am still alive then I wont be able to miss it and The Word would come to my memory. Its very possible new york is that city. Also obama and some feds have made speaches saying they fear a nuclear attack on manhattan. Before 9/11 the feds was saying there might be a terrorist plot dealing with planes. There are speeches that have been televised and some of these speeches can be found on youtube.

#3
ARGOSY

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I've been considering the notion that the final world government starts off as the feet of iron and clay in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2, an imagery that could easily describe the current U.N. which would make the world's capital New York City.  Thoughts?

 

I believe Rev 17:18 defines this capital, using the present tense.   It says this is the city that rules over the kings of the land. This was written when Rome ruled over kings.  I believe we need look no further than Rome.  I go a bit further and define this "city"  as currently Papal Rome and its domain of Europe. Thus it can be seen as Papal Europe with its dominant world trade, and its EU/Papal alliance. 

 

The ten horns are ten Middle Eastern countries that will arise in a new Turkish Union. 



#4
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I believe Rev 17:18 defines this capital, using the present tense.   It says this is the city that rules over the kings of the land. This was written when Rome ruled over kings.  I believe we need look no further than Rome.  I go a bit further and define this "city"  as currently Papal Rome and its domain of Europe. Thus it can be seen as Papal Europe with its dominant world trade, and its EU/Papal alliance. 

 

The ten horns are ten Middle Eastern countries that will arise in a new Turkish Union. 

 

 

It uses the present tense in a future context.  Rev 17:17 says of the ten horns: For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose.  Did that happen in the first century?  I see it as relative to the context of a future event.

 

Concerning Rome...

 

Why are there two different prophecies in Daniel that talk about the same thing? I believe its because they have a different emphasis. The great statue seems to emphasize more the physical nature of the kingdoms by the materials used to describe them and their succession. The prophecy of the four beasts is more from the perspective of the demonic influence used to grant dominion to the kingdoms. Let me explain: the fourth kingdom in the great statue is seen as two separate and distinct things, legs of iron, and feet of an iron and clay mix. The fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 is seen as one beast. From a natural standpoint, the legs of iron can only be seen as a separate kingdom from the feet of iron and clay. The reason they are described as the fourth kingdom and not the fourth and fifth kingdoms is because they both come into existence as a result of the fourth beast in Daniel 7.  Geography is not a factor.  The common denominator is their origin, the demonic prince.  The "legs of iron" was largely European. The "feet of iron and clay" will be global. The feet of iron and clay depict a conglomerate of nations. This group of nations undergoes a transformation when the ten horns destroy it's headquarters, the city which reigns over the kings of the earth. That's why I don't think Rome plays a major role.

 

Concerning Papal Rome/Europe...

 

I've seen a lot of people trying to pin the "Babylon" tail on the "Catholic" donkey. They should think more "big picture". Its my understanding that the term "Babylon" is used to describe rebellion against God, or practicing ungodliness. The tower of Babel was built in order to keep from being scattered when God said to fill the earth. God came down and saw what they had built, confused their language, and they were scattered. Its believed that the tower of Babel was used as a center of all kinds of ungodliness. Years later Babylon likewise gained a reputation as a center of great ungodliness and the term "Babylon" became an easy reference for such a city. Referring to a city allegorically isn't uncommon as in Revelation 11:8.  Peter also did it in a likely reference to Rome in 1 Peter 5:13.  I know there are many interpretations of Mystery Babylon. Whatever your understanding, make sure it includes this: "And in her [Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:24

 
I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion of:

The ten horns are ten Middle Eastern countries that will arise in a new Turkish Union.



#5
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Watch to see where they move the UN headquarters to. If they move it.

#6
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Watch to see where they move the UN headquarters to. If they move it.

 

I completely agree that there will be an Islamic Union at the forefront of world politics, except where we disagree is that I believe it will be a west-friendly  Jew-friendly Union set up by the west. You Americans seem to be completely unaware how absolutely dominant you are in world politics. Any Islamic country that ever dares to compete .. can be snuffed out in a week.

 

While your media and your mega-preachers feed you images of the rising Islamic beast, your own hard earned tax dollars are currently creating a west-friendly beast empire.



#7
Last Daze

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Watch to see where they move the UN headquarters to. If they move it.

 

I agree.  The U.N. / NYC consideration is based on the assumption that we are quite close to a seven year agreement.  I think the "model" still applies and that the 10 horns will manipulate it to achieve an economic infrastructure whereby they control the world's finances.  Then they no longer have need of it so they destroy its capital, wherever it is, to demonstrate that they are now in control.


Edited by Last Daze, 24 July 2014 - 01:09 PM.


#8
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I completely agree that there will be an Islamic Union at the forefront of world politics, except where we disagree is that I believe it will be a west-friendly  Jew-friendly Union set up by the west. You Americans seem to be completely unaware how absolutely dominant you are in world politics. Any Islamic country that ever dares to compete .. can be snuffed out in a week.

 

While your media and your mega-preachers feed you images of the rising Islamic beast, your own hard earned tax dollars are currently creating a west-friendly beast empire.

 

 

Thanks for the perspective.  Its always good to hear how someone outside the country sees things.  I've been thinking about the role of Islam in the end times, what it might be.  This may be a long shot but...after the false prophet (antichrist) issues the "worship the image or die" ultimatum there are going to be a lot (millions in my estimation) of people around the world who are going to be beheaded (per the fifth seal).  I can just hear the false prophet asking if there are any volunteers to behead these infidels?  To which he gets a resounding, "That's what we do best!".  Of course, that's speculation, but the task is going to fall to someone.

 

I guess we'll see as things unfold.



#9
ARGOSY

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I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion of:

The ten horns are ten Middle Eastern countries that will arise in a new Turkish Union.

 

 

Daniel 2 says the Iron Empire (Rome) will be split into two feet when it becomes a "divided" empire.  History says that at the fall of Rome, the Roman empire split into two parts, Papal Europe in the west, and Byzantium (later Ottoman) Istanbul in the east.   These two feet are prophesied to continue to dominate right until the feet are destroyed.   You could say that these two feet represent the West, and Turkey... ie in modern days its the current NATO alliance. 

 

Now in the times that this final ten toes beast is set up according to Revelation 13, the beast will resemble the leopard. The leopard was Alexander's Greek  Empire.  So if we look at the countries that resemble the borders of the Greek Empire, we see that these ten countries include Turkey. 

 

So if Turkey is prophesied to be one of the two Roman powers that dominate, and Turkey will be part of a greater union, the natural assumption is that Turkey will lead that union if it is to retain the role of one of the two dominating "feet" of Rome.

 

Combine this with modern politics, where you see that the west is eliminating all competition in the Islamic world until Turkey is the sole remaining Islamic superpower. Add to this the rhetoric of Adnan Oktar, a leading Islamic religious figure who is promoting a Turkish Union to bring world peace between Islam,  Jews and Christians ... and everything looks like we are heading there rapidly.



#10
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I completely agree that there will be an Islamic Union at the forefront of world politics, except where we disagree is that I believe it will be a west-friendly  Jew-friendly Union set up by the west. You Americans seem to be completely unaware how absolutely dominant you are in world politics. Any Islamic country that ever dares to compete .. can be snuffed out in a week.

 

While your media and your mega-preachers feed you images of the rising Islamic beast, your own hard earned tax dollars are currently creating a west-friendly beast empire.

 

 

Thanks for the perspective.  Its always good to hear how someone outside the country sees things.  I've been thinking about the role of Islam in the end times, what it might be.  This may be a long shot but...after the false prophet (antichrist) issues the "worship the image or die" ultimatum there are going to be a lot (millions in my estimation) of people around the world who are going to be beheaded (per the fifth seal).  I can just hear the false prophet asking if there are any volunteers to behead these infidels?  To which he gets a resounding, "That's what we do best!".  Of course, that's speculation, but the task is going to fall to someone.

 

I guess we'll see as things unfold.

 

Thanks for being open.  I am in a relatively difficult position on these websites because of course most of the English speaking world falls under western politics and western media. So I find myself often being the lone voice, but if I knew another language I would find more sympathy for my views.   The "conspiracy" or "Illuminati" crowd often do see how the west will dominate Islam, instead of the other way around, so I do find agreement amongst them.



#11
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Daniel 2 says the Iron Empire (Rome) will be split into two feet when it becomes a "divided" empire.  History says that at the fall of Rome, the Roman empire split into two parts, Papal Europe in the west, and Byzantium (later Ottoman) Istanbul in the east.   These two feet are prophesied to continue to dominate right until the feet are destroyed.   You could say that these two feet represent the West, and Turkey... ie in modern days its the current NATO alliance. 

 

Now in the times that this final ten toes beast is set up according to Revelation 13, the beast will resemble the leopard. The leopard was Alexander's Greek  Empire.  So if we look at the countries that resemble the borders of the Greek Empire, we see that these ten countries include Turkey. 

 

So if Turkey is prophesied to be one of the two Roman powers that dominate, and Turkey will be part of a greater union, the natural assumption is that Turkey will lead that union if it is to retain the role of one of the two dominating "feet" of Rome.

 

Combine this with modern politics, where you see that the west is eliminating all competition in the Islamic world until Turkey is the sole remaining Islamic superpower. Add to this the rhetoric of Adnan Oktar, a leading Islamic religious figure who is promoting a Turkish Union to bring world peace between Islam,  Jews and Christians ... and everything looks like we are heading there rapidly.

 

 

I guess that I don't see how any group of nations can qualify for the 10 horns based on the description of them in the original post, primarily, "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12.

 

I see it more as a covert group of 10 that are associated with nations or nation groups that plan to rule economically.  Their reign is short due to the false prophet usurping their authority.



#12
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I have some thoughts on the world's capital that I'd like some feedback on.  These thoughts are based on the seven headed, ten horned beast being a demon and the false prophet being a human aka Antichrist.

The ten horns of the seven-headed, ten-horned beast are described as such:

"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12.

What do they do during their short reign?

" And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire." Revelation 17:16

And who is this harlot that they destroy?

"The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:18

There are some interesting observations to make here especially when you tie in the prophecy of the four beasts in Daniel 7:

    The ten horns are not heads of state i.e. they have not yet received a kingdom.
    The ten horns have acquired weapons of mass destruction because they are capable of destroying an entire city with fire.
    A world government is already in place when the ten horns have their short moment of glory. I say that because there's a world capital, a city that reigns over the kings of the earth.

Bring in what we know from Daniel 7 and we can also add the following observations:

    A small horn comes up among the ten horns and uproots (subdues) three of them. Daniel 7:8
    The small horn becomes larger (more powerful) than the other horns after he subdues the three. Daniel 7:20

Based on this, I think its reasonable to conclude the following:

The ten horns work behind the scenes to gain control of the world. At some point, they announce their takeover and destroy the world's capital. Shortly thereafter, the false prophet nullifies their authority. That doesn't sit well with them and three of them bring forces to bear against him. He subdues them.

Knowing that there is an economic aspect to the end times, i.e. the mark required to buy and sell, the takeover by the ten horns will likely be a takeover of the world's economies. This would explain how ten "non heads of state" could control the world and how their authority could easily be usurped by one person.

The world's capital is described as:

And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." Revelation 17:15

"'for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’" Revelation 18:17-18

Based on these verses, the world's capital is a port city that appears to be a melting pot of sorts.

I've been considering the notion that the final world government starts off as the feet of iron and clay in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2, an imagery that could easily describe the current U.N. which would make the world's capital New York City.  Thoughts?

 

If you're looking at any other city in the world other than Jerusalem as that "great city", you're just not going to understand what all those Rev. metaphors are pointing to for the end.

 

Jerusalem is where those behind one world government will setup their ruling headquarters over all the kings of the earth, because that is where the coming pseudo-Christ is going to set himself up as king of the world and as Christ.

 

The idea of Rev. Babylon being a port city just because those in ships look far off at her destruction is taking a metaphorical description of the Rev. Babylon concept and trying to make it literal. God is using Babylon in Rev. as a symbol, and that means go back to His OT prophets and note the associations with historical Babylon. But not just Babylon, but Tyre also, and any other of the 'beast' kingdoms of history, for that's where many of those Rev. symbols are from.

 

In Rev.18:13, notice one of her merchandise is the "souls of men". That is pointing to the history of pagan worship throughout the earth's historical beast kingdoms, and where paganism first began (in ancient Sumer-Babylonia), and directly to the false worship of the coming Antichrist in Jerusalem with the final beast kingdom on earth.

 

In Ezek.28 we are given a parable about Satan, but God starts off speaking about the prince and king of Tyrus (means 'rock'). But He soon goes into the topic of His having created Satan as an anointed cherub that covereth (guard of God's throne), and how he was originally perfect in his ways in God's Eden until iniquity was found in him. Tied within that description of Satan's original iniquity is the idea of 'traffik' (commerce).

 

Per history the rock island of Tyre was an ancient port city of world commerce off the coast of Lebanon. It had double walls around the island reaching up to 150 ft. God gave Alexander to conquer it, and the only way he could do so was by land. He had to move earth out to it, building a land bridge for access, which that land bridge still stands today. So that is where the ideas in Rev.18 about symbolic Babylon for the end is linking to the ideas of merchants and traffik (commerce); it's from the idea of commerce from the island of Tyre in relation to Satan who is the false 'rock' (for their rock is not as our Rock - Deut.32).

 

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. If a brother tries to understand our Lord's Book of Revelation without first having done a thorough study in all of God's Word, the many symbols in His Revelation will not be understood. It's because those symbols first originate especially in the OT Books of God's prophets.

 

About the "ten horns" -- in both the Books of Daniel and Revelation we are shown they are ten kings. In Daniel the 3 kings that the "little horn" subdues does not mean a destruction, but an overtaking of their power. The three kings will still exist, but at a lower ruling function is what I see.

 

Something else, in Rev.12:3-4 we are shown an old beast kingdom that had only seven crowns in contrast to the one in Rev.13:1 for the end that will have ten crowns. That one of Rev.12:3-4 was when Satan first rebelled against God in the time of old (i.e., before this present world). Ezekiel 31 is giving a parable type description of that time, in the same kind of language like how Ezek.28 is pointing to Satan in the time of old.

 

The reason Rev.17 says the ten kings receive no kingdom as yet, is because they do not come to power until the beast king (Antichrist) comes to power, and then they rule with him for "one hour". You should know what that "one hour" is pointing to, for it's about the coming tribulation time. It is given in the symbolic sense, not a literal hour, but as a timeframe that the beast rules, the 42 months of Rev.13 is the actual time amount. That is the eleventh hour before the midnight of Christ's coming per the ten virgin parable. It's the last hour of the laborers of the field that got paid the same for one hour that the other laborers got paid for working all day, etc. Got it?

 

As for the "waters", in Rev.17:15 our Lord Jesus is revealing what the "sea" of Rev.13:1 represents in relation to that 1st beast. It's a kingdom beast, and it's made up of peoples, multitudes, tongues, and nations. That's all that's pointing to, not a city, but a kingdom over all the earth.



#13
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If you're looking at any other city in the world other than Jerusalem as that "great city", you're just not going to understand what all those Rev. metaphors are pointing to for the end.

 

Jerusalem is where those behind one world government will setup their ruling headquarters over all the kings of the earth, because that is where the coming pseudo-Christ is going to set himself up as king of the world and as Christ.

 

The idea of Rev. Babylon being a port city just because those in ships look far off at her destruction is taking a metaphorical description of the Rev. Babylon concept and trying to make it literal. God is using Babylon in Rev. as a symbol, and that means go back to His OT prophets and note the associations with historical Babylon. But not just Babylon, but Tyre also, and any other of the 'beast' kingdoms of history, for that's where many of those Rev. symbols are from.

 

In Rev.18:13, notice one of her merchandise is the "souls of men". That is pointing to the history of pagan worship throughout the earth's historical beast kingdoms, and where paganism first began (in ancient Sumer-Babylonia), and directly to the false worship of the coming Antichrist in Jerusalem with the final beast kingdom on earth.

 

In Ezek.28 we are given a parable about Satan, but God starts off speaking about the prince and king of Tyrus (means 'rock'). But He soon goes into the topic of His having created Satan as an anointed cherub that covereth (guard of God's throne), and how he was originally perfect in his ways in God's Eden until iniquity was found in him. Tied within that description of Satan's original iniquity is the idea of 'traffik' (commerce).

 

Per history the rock island of Tyre was an ancient port city of world commerce off the coast of Lebanon. It had double walls around the island reaching up to 150 ft. God gave Alexander to conquer it, and the only way he could do so was by land. He had to move earth out to it, building a land bridge for access, which that land bridge still stands today. So that is where the ideas in Rev.18 about symbolic Babylon for the end is linking to the ideas of merchants and traffik (commerce); it's from the idea of commerce from the island of Tyre in relation to Satan who is the false 'rock' (for their rock is not as our Rock - Deut.32).

 

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. If a brother tries to understand our Lord's Book of Revelation without first having done a thorough study in all of God's Word, the many symbols in His Revelation will not be understood. It's because those symbols first originate especially in the OT Books of God's prophets.

 

About the "ten horns" -- in both the Books of Daniel and Revelation we are shown they are ten kings. In Daniel the 3 kings that the "little horn" subdues does not mean a destruction, but an overtaking of their power. The three kings will still exist, but at a lower ruling function is what I see.

 

Something else, in Rev.12:3-4 we are shown an old beast kingdom that had only seven crowns in contrast to the one in Rev.13:1 for the end that will have ten crowns. That one of Rev.12:3-4 was when Satan first rebelled against God in the time of old (i.e., before this present world). Ezekiel 31 is giving a parable type description of that time, in the same kind of language like how Ezek.28 is pointing to Satan in the time of old.

 

The reason Rev.17 says the ten kings receive no kingdom as yet, is because they do not come to power until the beast king (Antichrist) comes to power, and then they rule with him for "one hour". You should know what that "one hour" is pointing to, for it's about the coming tribulation time. It is given in the symbolic sense, not a literal hour, but as a timeframe that the beast rules, the 42 months of Rev.13 is the actual time amount. That is the eleventh hour before the midnight of Christ's coming per the ten virgin parable. It's the last hour of the laborers of the field that got paid the same for one hour that the other laborers got paid for working all day, etc. Got it?

 

As for the "waters", in Rev.17:15 our Lord Jesus is revealing what the "sea" of Rev.13:1 represents in relation to that 1st beast. It's a kingdom beast, and it's made up of peoples, multitudes, tongues, and nations. That's all that's pointing to, not a city, but a kingdom over all the earth.

 

 

I agree that Jerusalem is significant in end times prophecy with the false prophet (antichrist) being there along with the two witnesses, the temple, etc. but identifying it as Babylon is a strained interpretation in my opinion for the following reasons:

 

  • The initial symbolism of Babylon in Rev 17 is the great harlot riding the beast from the sea.  The angel then begins to tell John the mystery of the harlot by explaining the symbolism.  Another angel then comes down from heaven in Rev 18 and continues with a detailed description of what can only be described as a port city of tremendous commerce and wealth.  I don't think that explaining symbolism with more symbolism is really an explanation.
  • I agree that the 10 horns in Daniel and Revelation are referring to the same 10 kings.  In Daniel, what the "small horn" does is described as: "and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it", "and before which three of them fell"; and "and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings."  In order to subdue, or bring under control, there has to be an uprising.  Three of the horns fell, not only fell, but were pulled out by the roots.  I see that as the three horns bringing forces to bear against the false prophet and him calling down fire from heaven and destroying them.  The other seven see that and say “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”  Regime change.  At any rate, the first three are gone so the "great city" must of necessity have already been destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene.
  • If the ten horns really reign for forty-two months, why does it say an hour?  Why not just come out and say forty-two months or time, times and half a time?  Its made clear in other places.  Why obfuscate this one?  Reinterpreting specific time durations is a slippery slope that I want to avoid.  If the 10 horns reign for one hour (forty two months) and they destroy Jerusalem (Babylon) in one hour (forty-two months)  ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’ then Jerusalem is on fire for forty-two months while the false prophet is ruling from there?  That doesn't make sense to me.
  • The "waters" in Rev 17:15 is in a completely different context from the "sea" of Rev 13:1.  I don't see anything that relates them to being the same thing.  If anything, I think the beast that comes up out of the sea is a contrast to the beast that comes up out of the earth indicating that the first is a demon and the second is a human.

 

On a side note...I was recently comparing the ten horns as described in Revelation 17 with the ten horns of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 and noticed something that I thought might be of interest.

Revelation 17:13 says that the ten horns have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast that comes up out of the abyss. This is reiterated and expounded upon four verses later in Revelation 17:17. It says that God put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose and by giving their kingdom to the beast.

Compare that to Daniel 7:24 where it says that another horn arises after the ten and will pull three of them out by the roots.

This seems to indicate that the beast from the abyss in Revelation 17 is different from the horn that arises after the ten in Daniel 7. If they were the same, then why would three of them need to be subdued? They have a common purpose and they give their kingdom to the beast. God put it in their hearts to do so.



#14
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I have some thoughts on the world's capital that I'd like some feedback on.  These thoughts are based on the seven headed, ten horned beast being a demon and the false prophet being a human aka Antichrist.
Hi Last Daze

Great post.  I woiuld like to give you my feedback.

The ten horns of the seven-headed, ten-horned beast are described as such:

"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour." Revelation 17:12.

 

What do they do during their short reign?

" And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire." Revelation 17:16

And who is this harlot that they destroy?

"The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:18
Babylon the Great.

There are some interesting observations to make here especially when you tie in the prophecy of the four beasts in Daniel 7:

    The ten horns are not heads of state i.e. they have not yet received a kingdom.

Not in Johns day , and I agree, they are not heads of state

    The ten horns have acquired weapons of mass destruction because they are capable of destroying an entire city with fire.
    A world government is already in place when the ten horns have their short moment of glory. I say that because there's a world capital, a city that reigns over the kings of the earth.

This capital city is a spiritual city called Babylon the great, where those who have not come out of Babylon dwell.  Not a physical city, but the whole world.

Bring in what we know from Daniel 7 and we can also add the following observations:

    A small horn comes up among the ten horns and uproots (subdues) three of them. Daniel 7:8
    The small horn becomes larger (more powerful) than the other horns after he subdues the three. Daniel 7:20

Correct.  It would be interesting to know who those three turn out to be, but after the little horn rises,  there will only be 10 kings.

Based on this, I think its reasonable to conclude the following:

The ten horns work behind the scenes to gain control of the world. At some point, they announce their takeover and destroy the world's capital. Shortly thereafter, the false prophet nullifies their authority. That doesn't sit well with them and three of them bring forces to bear against him. He subdues them.
Agree, these 10 gain control of the world.  At some point, when the little horn rises to power, he will lead them (the 10), and then they work together.  Always together.  Their power is increased.  They become even stronger, because they are the manpower behind this little horn.  They will have the power to persecute, and change laws etc.  They have the military and the police behind them, and the people of course.

The 10 are only destroying the system of Babylon that we have now, only because they are the ones to bring in a new system, which will lead to all receiving the mark of the beast.  They will destroy this system through the economy, in other words, make the world go bankrupt through their dark schemes.

Knowing that there is an economic aspect to the end times, i.e. the mark required to buy and sell, the takeover by the ten horns will likely be a takeover of the world's economies. This would explain how ten "non heads of state" could control the world and how their authority could easily be usurped by one person.
Exactly!

The world's capital is described as:

And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." Revelation 17:15

"'for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’" Revelation 18:17-18

Based on these verses, the world's capital is a port city that appears to be a melting pot of sorts.

It's the whole world.  Every single nations trades.

I've been considering the notion that the final world government starts off as the feet of iron and clay in the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2, an imagery that could easily describe the current U.N. which would make the world's capital New York City.  Thoughts?

 

Revelation 18:2   And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Revelation 18:3   For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

God is telling us, his people to come out of her, so this capital is spiritual, and not physical.  This capital is Satan's kingdom where all the unrighteous dwell, and he is using this world to make everyone drunk.  We christians are living in Babylon, but not dwelling there spiritually, so should not be a part of what they are doing because our spiritual dwelling should be in God's spiritual city, not Babylon.  God's city is city with different laws, and ways where there is peace, love and hope.  We are not part of that jungle where dog eats dog, and serving lust and greed being made drunk, because we have been given the light (truth)

God bless, you have much insight.

 



#15
Salty

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If you're looking at any other city in the world other than Jerusalem as that "great city", you're just not going to understand what all those Rev. metaphors are pointing to for the end.

 

Jerusalem is where those behind one world government will setup their ruling headquarters over all the kings of the earth, because that is where the coming pseudo-Christ is going to set himself up as king of the world and as Christ.

 

The idea of Rev. Babylon being a port city just because those in ships look far off at her destruction is taking a metaphorical description of the Rev. Babylon concept and trying to make it literal. God is using Babylon in Rev. as a symbol, and that means go back to His OT prophets and note the associations with historical Babylon. But not just Babylon, but Tyre also, and any other of the 'beast' kingdoms of history, for that's where many of those Rev. symbols are from.

 

In Rev.18:13, notice one of her merchandise is the "souls of men". That is pointing to the history of pagan worship throughout the earth's historical beast kingdoms, and where paganism first began (in ancient Sumer-Babylonia), and directly to the false worship of the coming Antichrist in Jerusalem with the final beast kingdom on earth.

 

In Ezek.28 we are given a parable about Satan, but God starts off speaking about the prince and king of Tyrus (means 'rock'). But He soon goes into the topic of His having created Satan as an anointed cherub that covereth (guard of God's throne), and how he was originally perfect in his ways in God's Eden until iniquity was found in him. Tied within that description of Satan's original iniquity is the idea of 'traffik' (commerce).

 

Per history the rock island of Tyre was an ancient port city of world commerce off the coast of Lebanon. It had double walls around the island reaching up to 150 ft. God gave Alexander to conquer it, and the only way he could do so was by land. He had to move earth out to it, building a land bridge for access, which that land bridge still stands today. So that is where the ideas in Rev.18 about symbolic Babylon for the end is linking to the ideas of merchants and traffik (commerce); it's from the idea of commerce from the island of Tyre in relation to Satan who is the false 'rock' (for their rock is not as our Rock - Deut.32).

 

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. If a brother tries to understand our Lord's Book of Revelation without first having done a thorough study in all of God's Word, the many symbols in His Revelation will not be understood. It's because those symbols first originate especially in the OT Books of God's prophets.

 

About the "ten horns" -- in both the Books of Daniel and Revelation we are shown they are ten kings. In Daniel the 3 kings that the "little horn" subdues does not mean a destruction, but an overtaking of their power. The three kings will still exist, but at a lower ruling function is what I see.

 

Something else, in Rev.12:3-4 we are shown an old beast kingdom that had only seven crowns in contrast to the one in Rev.13:1 for the end that will have ten crowns. That one of Rev.12:3-4 was when Satan first rebelled against God in the time of old (i.e., before this present world). Ezekiel 31 is giving a parable type description of that time, in the same kind of language like how Ezek.28 is pointing to Satan in the time of old.

 

The reason Rev.17 says the ten kings receive no kingdom as yet, is because they do not come to power until the beast king (Antichrist) comes to power, and then they rule with him for "one hour". You should know what that "one hour" is pointing to, for it's about the coming tribulation time. It is given in the symbolic sense, not a literal hour, but as a timeframe that the beast rules, the 42 months of Rev.13 is the actual time amount. That is the eleventh hour before the midnight of Christ's coming per the ten virgin parable. It's the last hour of the laborers of the field that got paid the same for one hour that the other laborers got paid for working all day, etc. Got it?

 

As for the "waters", in Rev.17:15 our Lord Jesus is revealing what the "sea" of Rev.13:1 represents in relation to that 1st beast. It's a kingdom beast, and it's made up of peoples, multitudes, tongues, and nations. That's all that's pointing to, not a city, but a kingdom over all the earth.

 

 

I agree that Jerusalem is significant in end times prophecy with the false prophet (antichrist) being there along with the two witnesses, the temple, etc. but identifying it as Babylon is a strained interpretation in my opinion for the following reasons:

 

  • The initial symbolism of Babylon in Rev 17 is the great harlot riding the beast from the sea.  The angel then begins to tell John the mystery of the harlot by explaining the symbolism.  Another angel then comes down from heaven in Rev 18 and continues with a detailed description of what can only be described as a port city of tremendous commerce and wealth.  I don't think that explaining symbolism with more symbolism is really an explanation.
  • I agree that the 10 horns in Daniel and Revelation are referring to the same 10 kings.  In Daniel, what the "small horn" does is described as: "and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it", "and before which three of them fell"; and "and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings."  In order to subdue, or bring under control, there has to be an uprising.  Three of the horns fell, not only fell, but were pulled out by the roots.  I see that as the three horns bringing forces to bear against the false prophet and him calling down fire from heaven and destroying them.  The other seven see that and say “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”  Regime change.  At any rate, the first three are gone so the "great city" must of necessity have already been destroyed before the false prophet comes on the scene.
  • If the ten horns really reign for forty-two months, why does it say an hour?  Why not just come out and say forty-two months or time, times and half a time?  Its made clear in other places.  Why obfuscate this one?  Reinterpreting specific time durations is a slippery slope that I want to avoid.  If the 10 horns reign for one hour (forty two months) and they destroy Jerusalem (Babylon) in one hour (forty-two months)  ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’ then Jerusalem is on fire for forty-two months while the false prophet is ruling from there?  That doesn't make sense to me.
  • The "waters" in Rev 17:15 is in a completely different context from the "sea" of Rev 13:1.  I don't see anything that relates them to being the same thing.  If anything, I think the beast that comes up out of the sea is a contrast to the beast that comes up out of the earth indicating that the first is a demon and the second is a human.

 

On a side note...I was recently comparing the ten horns as described in Revelation 17 with the ten horns of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 and noticed something that I thought might be of interest.

Revelation 17:13 says that the ten horns have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast that comes up out of the abyss. This is reiterated and expounded upon four verses later in Revelation 17:17. It says that God put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose and by giving their kingdom to the beast.

Compare that to Daniel 7:24 where it says that another horn arises after the ten and will pull three of them out by the roots.

This seems to indicate that the beast from the abyss in Revelation 17 is different from the horn that arises after the ten in Daniel 7. If they were the same, then why would three of them need to be subdued? They have a common purpose and they give their kingdom to the beast. God put it in their hearts to do so.

 

 

Doesn't matter if you don't want to believe God is pointing to Jerusalem as the "great city" in Revelation using Babylon as a symbol; Jerusalem will be the headquarters city of reign by the coming Antichrist, and that is enough to make it so for that time. Shouldn't confuse the Jerusalem on earth today with the Heavenly Jerusalem above that is free, for they are not the same.



#16
Last Daze

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Hi Sister and thanks for your thoughts on the subject.

 

This capital city is a spiritual city called Babylon the great, where those who have not come out of Babylon dwell.  Not a physical city, but the whole world.

 

I agree that there is a spiritual aspect to Babylon that is global, and I also think it refers to a literal city.  I'm not sure if you've read post #4.  My thoughts there on Babylon are: Its my understanding that the term "Babylon" is used to describe rebellion against God, or practicing ungodliness. The tower of Babel was built in order to keep from being scattered when God said to fill the earth. God came down and saw what they had built, confused their language, and they were scattered. Its believed that the tower of Babel was used as a center of all kinds of ungodliness. Years later Babylon likewise gained a reputation as a center of great ungodliness and the term "Babylon" became an easy reference for such a city. Referring to a city allegorically isn't uncommon as in Revelation 11:8.  Peter also did it in a likely reference to Rome in 1 Peter 5:13.  I know there are many interpretations of Mystery Babylon. Whatever your understanding, make sure it includes this: "And in her [Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.” Revelation 18:24

 

Correct.  It would be interesting to know who those three turn out to be, but after the little horn rises,  there will only be 10 kings.
Agree, these 10 gain control of the world.  At some point, when the little horn rises to power, he will lead them (the 10), and then they work together.  Always together. 

 

The ten horns have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the beast that comes up out the abyss, which is a demon, and different from the little horn in Daniel 7, which is the false prophet (antichrist).  See post #13 at the bottom where it says On a side note...

 

The 10 are only destroying the system of Babylon that we have now, only because they are the ones to bring in a new system, which will lead to all receiving the mark of the beast.  They will destroy this system through the economy, in other words, make the world go bankrupt through their dark schemes.

 

I agree that the ten horns bring a new economic system and replace the "old order" with their new one.  The false prophet takes control of their system and requires the mark for people to access their "money".

 

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

This is a good exhortation.  After the literal city is destroyed, and order is restored, comes the time of martyrdom (fifth seal).  It will be decision time for those who profess faith in Christ.  If we untangle ourselves from worldliness now, and long for the appearing of our Lord, its an easy decision.

Thanks again Sister and blessings.

 



#17
Salty

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Been here before on this matter, and still no one seems to care about Ezekiel 16 where God first called Jerusalem a 'harlot' for falling away from Him instead to false worship.

 

What is it about today's Jerusalem that many of you are so in love with? The Jerusalem on earth today is still in bondage per Apostle Paul in Galatians. Only The Jerusalem above still in the Heavenly today is free, and is the Jerusalem all those in Christ Jesus are to aspire to.

 

When The LORD in His Word has already warned His people about the coming false messiah to Jerusalem to attempt to play God, with animal sacrifices and the Old Testament worship started again and thereafter an idol abomination, which both are against Christ Jesus, then how could someone think their Salvation will be in that kind of Jerusalem?!?

 

I simply refuse... to be fooled by those who come here to preach today's Jerusalem = Salvation type messages. Our Lord Jesus instead told His servants there in Jerusalem to get out when they see the abomination of desolation setup there.



#18
Last Daze

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Been here before on this matter, and still no one seems to care about Ezekiel 16 where God first called Jerusalem a 'harlot' for falling away from Him instead to false worship.

 

What is it about today's Jerusalem that many of you are so in love with? The Jerusalem on earth today is still in bondage per Apostle Paul in Galatians. Only The Jerusalem above still in the Heavenly today is free, and is the Jerusalem all those in Christ Jesus are to aspire to.

 

When The LORD in His Word has already warned His people about the coming false messiah to Jerusalem to attempt to play God, with animal sacrifices and the Old Testament worship started again and thereafter an idol abomination, which both are against Christ Jesus, then how could someone think their Salvation will be in that kind of Jerusalem?!?

 

I simply refuse... to be fooled by those who come here to preach today's Jerusalem = Salvation type messages. Our Lord Jesus instead told His servants there in Jerusalem to get out when they see the abomination of desolation setup there.

 

Why do you think I'm in love with Jerusalem?  Because I don't think it's Babylon?  I've never equated salvation with Jerusalem.  I don't think I've even heard that message.  I just don't think its Babylon.  That's all.

 

What concerns me is that if NYC is that city when the seven year agreement is made then there will only be 3-3.5 years to evangelize that city before it's destruction...based on the way I see things.  This post is for thoughts on the idea.



#19
Salty

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Been here before on this matter, and still no one seems to care about Ezekiel 16 where God first called Jerusalem a 'harlot' for falling away from Him instead to false worship.

 

What is it about today's Jerusalem that many of you are so in love with? The Jerusalem on earth today is still in bondage per Apostle Paul in Galatians. Only The Jerusalem above still in the Heavenly today is free, and is the Jerusalem all those in Christ Jesus are to aspire to.

 

When The LORD in His Word has already warned His people about the coming false messiah to Jerusalem to attempt to play God, with animal sacrifices and the Old Testament worship started again and thereafter an idol abomination, which both are against Christ Jesus, then how could someone think their Salvation will be in that kind of Jerusalem?!?

 

I simply refuse... to be fooled by those who come here to preach today's Jerusalem = Salvation type messages. Our Lord Jesus instead told His servants there in Jerusalem to get out when they see the abomination of desolation setup there.

 

Why do you think I'm in love with Jerusalem?  Because I don't think it's Babylon?  I've never equated salvation with Jerusalem.  I don't think I've even heard that message.  I just don't think its Babylon.  That's all.

 

What concerns me is that if NYC is that city when the seven year agreement is made then there will only be 3-3.5 years to evangelize that city before it's destruction...based on the way I see things.  This post is for thoughts on the idea.

 

 

That's the attitude I find a lot here, like, "It could be Jerusalem?!? Oh, God forbid, let's look somewhere else!" But based on the parameters of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation it cannot be anywhere else.



#20
Sonseeahray

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Revelation chapter 12 does not contain one shred of prophesy. It is simply a summary of the history of the Church of Jesus Christ from his birth up to the time that John wrote the book of Revelation. The last part of chapter 17 and 18 also are about historical events from John's time. Here John is regaling his hearers about the history of the fire of Rome in 64AD. It is in no way prophetic at all until you get to verse 21 of chapter 18.

 

Revelation 17:12-18 (NIV2011)
12  “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
13  They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.
14  They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
15  Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
16  The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
17  For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.
18  The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

 

 

12  “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

 

In Rome there were three basic levels of leadership. First was the emperor; Second was the Senators, and third there were the Equestrians which were of the lowest rank. It was from this pool of Senators and Equestrians that Rome drew its leaders for service out in the sprawling Empire. The Senators and Equestrians were therefore "Kings without a kingdom." However in this case it was the Equestrians who did the Emperors bidding and not necessarily the Senators. The ten kings were symbolic of a small number of the Equstrian order. The number 10 is a symbol in Revelation for a small number and not necessarily exactly 10. The Senators numbered about 600. The equestrians may have been numbered in the thousands.

 

13  They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

 

John is telling us that it was some small number of these Equestrians who colluded with Nero to burn the city of Rome.

 

14  They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

 

This was the first persecution of the Church by Rome following the fire. Nero very cruelly martyred approximately 5,000 Christians until his death in 68AD. The Christians were victorius by becoming martyrs - which is the way things work in God's kingdom.

 

15  Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

18  The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

 

Both verses 15 and 18 tell us who the woman or prostitute was. It of course is a symbol of the city of Rome. Rome was the greatest city in the empire having a population of about one million.

 

16  The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

 

The beast, who was Nero, and the Equestrians who colluded with him were responsible for the burning of Rome. Just because Nero needed space in the city for his building projects. And they did indeed destroy 10 of the city's 14 precincts. The Jews and the Christians were not touched by the fire because they lived on the other side of the Tiber on the South West corner. The city indeed was destroyed by fire and citizens were physically without their belongings.

 

17  For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

 

John is telling us that it was God who was behind the judgment of Rome by the fire of 64AD. He is also cofirming that the rumors were true - it was Nero who was responsible for setting the fire along with his minions the Equestrians.

 

Chapter 18 continues on with the fire of 64AD from the viewpoint of the sailors and dignataries who observed the fire from the seaport of Ostia Antica/Port of Claudius just fiftten miles from Rome (afar off) to the south west. There is no prophesy in chapter 18 until you get to verse 21 - here the FINAL judgment of Rome is foretold. And we know from history that this happened in the 5th century - 410AD when Aleric the Visigoth sacked Rome - the city went downhill rapidly after this.

 

Twenty first century speculation may be fun - but it is no where near the truth of the simple message of John to the Seven Churches in the first century.

 

 






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