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Matt 24:31 - The first, second and third heaven

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#1
dscapp

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'And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.'

 

The Bible speaks about a first heaven (earth's atmosphere), second heaven (outer space) and a third heaven (where God and His angels dwell).

 

I believe Matt 24:31 is speaking of the first heaven because it's a rapture scripture, unless you think otherwise.



#2
Openly Curious

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So what is the point in it being the first heaven?

#3
dscapp

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Some think this scripture is speaking about Jesus taking the believers that are in the third heaven already, proving soul sleep is false.



#4
OneLight

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Are you saying you believe in soul sleep?



#5
dscapp

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Are you saying you believe in soul sleep?

 

Absolutely. The soul along with the body will be risen at the first resurrection.



#6
OneLight

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Have you searched scripture to understand the first resurrection?  Read Revelation 20 for the answer. 
 
What is your take on 2 Corinthians 5:8 then?

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.



#7
dscapp

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Have you searched scripture to understand the first resurrection?  Read Revelation 20 for the answer. 
 
What is your take on 2 Corinthians 5:8 then?
 

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

 

Hi OneLight. Yes, I have searched.

 

The first resurrection is when all believers that are dead in Christ will rise and meet Christ in the air. Rev 20:4-6

 

The first resurrection I believe will occur right after the sixth seal is open around the middle of the seven year great trib.

 

2 Cor 5:8 is simply stating the condition of the heart, it never gives a timeline.



#8
OneLight

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Have you searched scripture to understand the first resurrection?  Read Revelation 20 for the answer. 
 
What is your take on 2 Corinthians 5:8 then?
 

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 
Hi OneLight. Yes, I have searched.
 
The first resurrection is when all believers that are dead in Christ will rise and meet Christ in the air. Rev 20:4-6
 
The first resurrection I believe will occur right after the sixth seal is open around the middle of the seven year great trib.
 
2 Cor 5:8 is simply stating the condition of the heart, it never gives a timeline.

 
Not quite.  This is what scripture says.

Revelation 20:4-7
 

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


Notice only a select group is mentioned, those who were beheaded and refused the mark. This is not all Christians who have died.

As for 2 Corinthians 5:8, you miss a lot if you do not see that being absent from the body is to be with the Lord. Our spirits are with Christ upon death, but we do not receive our new bodies until His return. Who are those under the Throne crying out for revenge in the opening of the 5th seal if it is not those who have already died? How are their souls sleeping?? How can they be those who are raptured if you claim the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, which I would disagree with.

#9
dscapp

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Revelation 20:4-7

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


Notice only a select group is mentioned, those who were beheaded and refused the mark. This is not all Christians who have died.

 

Rev 20:4-6 is speaking of two events that will occur probably within minutes of each other, the first resurrection and then the rapture of the church. The first resurrection are those who are dead in Christ along with the beheaded. The rapture are those who are still alive along with those who refused the mark. Two sets of people here inside back to back events.

 

As for 2 Corinthians 5:8, you miss a lot if you do not see that being absent from the body is to be with the Lord. Our spirits are with Christ upon death, but we do not receive our new bodies until His return. Who are those under the Throne crying out for revenge in the opening of the 5th seal if it is not those who have already died? How are their souls sleeping?? How can they be those who are raptured if you claim the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, which I would disagree with.

 

Paul is speaking about the condition of the heart in 2 Cor 5:8. The dead know nothing right now, so for them it will be instant. The 5th seal is a vision of martyrdom given to John. This vision is describing all those who have been martyred from 2000 years up to the middle of the seven year great tribulation. The dead souls are sleeping right now, and their spirit went back to God who gave it. There are multiple scriptures that mention the sun, moon, stars and an earthquake along with Rev 6:12-14 being in accordance with the seven year great tribulation. - ds



#10
Floatingaxe

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Are you saying you believe in soul sleep?

 

Absolutely. The soul along with the body will be risen at the first resurrection.

 

 

Not true. Those who are dead in Christ now are with Jesus in spirit and in soul---which is the mind will and emotions part of man. The body is the only thing that remains, reverting to the dust from whence it came. At the resurrection the soul and spirit are united with a whole new risen body.

 

No one sleeps.



#11
OneLight

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Revelation 20:4-7
 

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


Notice only a select group is mentioned, those who were beheaded and refused the mark. This is not all Christians who have died.

 
Rev 20:4-6 is speaking of two events that will occur probably within minutes of each other, the first resurrection and then the rapture of the church. The first resurrection are those who are dead in Christ along with the beheaded. The rapture are those who are still alive along with those who refused the mark. Two sets of people here inside back to back events.


That is not how scripture is written. Only those who are beheaded are risen, which is shown in the verse. There is nothing about the rapture mentioned in Revelation 20. Care to show me where you see it and why you see it that way?
 

As for 2 Corinthians 5:8, you miss a lot if you do not see that being absent from the body is to be with the Lord. Our spirits are with Christ upon death, but we do not receive our new bodies until His return. Who are those under the Throne crying out for revenge in the opening of the 5th seal if it is not those who have already died? How are their souls sleeping?? How can they be those who are raptured if you claim the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, which I would disagree with.

 
Paul is speaking about the condition of the heart in 2 Cor 5:8. The dead know nothing right now, so for them it will be instant. The 5th seal is a vision of martyrdom given to John. This vision is describing all those who have been martyred from 2000 years up to the middle of the seven year great tribulation. The dead souls are sleeping right now, and their spirit went back to God who gave it. There are multiple scriptures that mention the sun, moon, stars and an earthquake along with Rev 6:12-14 being in accordance with the seven year great tribulation. - ds


Yo are reading far too much into scripture from what you have been told/taught. Look back at Revelations. In the 5th seal, there are many who are under the throne of God, asking for revenge. "Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed." I see no sleep or unconsciousness involved here. I do see them being to to rest a while longer. These are different than those who are beheaded during the tribulation.

#12
dscapp

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Not true. Those who are dead in Christ now are with Jesus in spirit and in soul---which is the mind will and emotions part of man. The body is the only thing that remains, reverting to the dust from whence it came. At the resurrection the soul and spirit are united with a whole new risen body.

 

No one sleeps.

 

 

Spirit ghosts walking around in the third heaven is hollywood deception axe.

 

That is not how scripture is written. Only those who are beheaded are risen, which is shown in the verse. There is nothing about the rapture mentioned in Revelation 20. Care to show me where you see it and why you see it that way?

 

Sure, scripture tells us that this mark on their hands occurs in the great tribulation during the reign of the antichrist. Rapture also occurs inside the great tribulation. Rev 20:4-6 is a vision OneLight. It's a vision of martyrdom throughout time, the great tribulation and the 1,000 year reign. What's the definition of a vision to you.

 

Yo are reading far too much into scripture from what you have been told/taught. Look back at Revelations. In the 5th seal, there are many who are under the throne of God, asking for revenge. "Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed." I see no sleep or unconsciousness involved here. I do see them being to to rest a while longer. These are different than those who are beheaded during the tribulation.

 

For some reason christians have a hard time understanding the meaning of what a vision is, and that's vital in the christian walk. Scripture plainly tells us that the 5th seal is speaking of past and future martyrdom.

 

Rev 6 When he opened the fifth seal, (I saw [VISION]) under the altar the souls of those who (had been [PAST AND FUTURE]) slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until [FUTURE] the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.



#13
OneLight

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That is not how scripture is written. Only those who are beheaded are risen, which is shown in the verse. There is nothing about the rapture mentioned in Revelation 20. Care to show me where you see it and why you see it that way?

 
Sure, scripture tells us that this mark on their hands occurs in the great tribulation during the reign of the antichrist. Rapture also occurs inside the great tribulation. Rev 20:4-6 is a vision OneLight. It's a vision of martyrdom throughout time, the great tribulation and the 1,000 year reign. What's the definition of a vision to you.

 
Why do you need to define what scripture clearly states?  "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands." is pretty clear to me.
 

You are reading far too much into scripture from what you have been told/taught. Look back at Revelations. In the 5th seal, there are many who are under the throne of God, asking for revenge. "Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed." I see no sleep or unconsciousness involved here. I do see them being to to rest a while longer. These are different than those who are beheaded during the tribulation.

 
For some reason christians have a hard time understanding the meaning of what a vision is, and that's vital in the christian walk. Scripture plainly tells us that the 5th seal is speaking of past and future martyrdom.
 
Rev 6 When he opened the fifth seal, (I saw [VISION]) under the altar the souls of those who (had been [PAST AND FUTURE]) slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until [FUTURE] the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

 
The vision was given at the time the 5th seal will be opened.  At that time, that is what John saw.  It does not talk about the future martyrdom, otherwise, they would not of been told to rest a little while longer until the full number of their fellow servants be fulfilled.  Why is it that this is not evident?  It goes on to open the 6th seal where events happen to the whole world, then the 144,000 are sealed.  After that, there is another vision of a different time about those that cannot be numbered who died during the Great Tribulation. Nothing was ever said about anyone sleeping until the rapture, but are alive in spirit before God.

#14
dscapp

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Why do you need to define what scripture clearly states?  "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands." is pretty clear to me.

 

Yes, and it's clear that it's a vision.

 

The vision was given at the time the 5th seal will be opened.  At that time, that is what John saw.  It does not talk about the future martyrdom, otherwise, they would not of been told to rest a little while longer until the full number of their fellow servants be fulfilled.  Why is it that this is not evident?  It goes on to open the 6th seal where events happen to the whole world, then the 144,000 are sealed.  After that, there is another vision of a different time about those that cannot be numbered who died during the Great Tribulation. Nothing was ever said about anyone sleeping until the rapture, but are alive in spirit before God.

 

A little while longer is not long. The Bible doesn't state how long it will take between the 5th seal and the sixth seal. The full number of their fellow servants will be fulfilled right after the 6th seal is open. The sixth seal is the second coming of Christ, first resurrection and rapture combined. Where does it say they are alive in spirit before God??



#15
OneLight

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Why do you need to define what scripture clearly states?  "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands." is pretty clear to me.

 
Yes, and it's clear that it's a vision.
 

The vision was given at the time the 5th seal will be opened.  At that time, that is what John saw.  It does not talk about the future martyrdom, otherwise, they would not of been told to rest a little while longer until the full number of their fellow servants be fulfilled.  Why is it that this is not evident?  It goes on to open the 6th seal where events happen to the whole world, then the 144,000 are sealed.  After that, there is another vision of a different time about those that cannot be numbered who died during the Great Tribulation. Nothing was ever said about anyone sleeping until the rapture, but are alive in spirit before God.

 
A little while longer is not long. The Bible doesn't state how long it will take between the 5th seal and the sixth seal. The full number of their fellow servants will be fulfilled right after the 6th seal is open. The sixth seal is the second coming of Christ, first resurrection and rapture combined. Where does it say they are alive in spirit before God??


I am a bit confused as in the direction you are going with your replies. What does all this got to do with soul sleep?

To answer your question, what do you think, they are all talking in their sleep? It sound to me like you do not believe anything in Revelation as real, only fantasy. Visions are His way of speaking to us without actually taking us where He is. Have you ever had a vision?

#16
dscapp

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I am a bit confused as in the direction you are going with your replies. What does all this got to do with soul sleep?

 

Because dead souls are sleeping in their graves right now until these events come to pass..(6th seal the second coming of Christ/first resurrection/rapture). When people say that soul sleep is false haven't interpreted scripture properly. Getting the timeline down really is important.



#17
Floatingaxe

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Spirit ghosts walking around in the third heaven is hollywood deception axe.

 

 

"Spirit ghosts"?? No---when a believer dies, his spirit/soul goes directly to the Lord---immediately. You may have a hard time with it, but God's word teaches it.



#18
Floatingaxe

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I am a bit confused as in the direction you are going with your replies. What does all this got to do with soul sleep?

 

Because dead souls are sleeping in their graves right now until these events come to pass..(6th seal the second coming of Christ/first resurrection/rapture). When people say that soul sleep is false haven't interpreted scripture properly. Getting the timeline down really is important.

 

 

People who believe in soul sleep don't interpret correctly. The only things waiting in graves are dead bones and dust. These physical, earthy remains rise up out of the graves and change!  They change to incorruptible flesh bodies which we will be reunited with and live forever serving the God we love.



#19
ENOCH2010

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I need to trade mine in, I have abused this one past repair



#20
dscapp

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"Spirit ghosts"?? No---when a believer dies, his spirit/soul goes directly to the Lord---immediately. You may have a hard time with it, but God's word teaches it.

 

But their body is still in the grave, without the body they are spirit ghosts walking around. And that's not what God's word teaches. Their spirit goes back to the Lord, not their soul.


Edited by dscapp, 28 July 2014 - 02:10 PM.





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