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Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.

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They have the choice to choose Jesus and be saved. Most of them choose poorly.

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There is only free will, nothing else really exists as a function or ability - no cause and effect, no determinism, no laws of nature, and nothing set in stone that God could not undo. Prophesies are visions of will, they are not things that have already happened. How prophecies are able to be true is because God knows his will, but that is not to say God couldn't change his will, and that he is bound to it -- if that were the case then covenants, faith, and promises would be pointless, in regards to what will become.

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They have the choice to choose Jesus and be saved. Most of them choose poorly.

I'm with Jade on this. They have the choice to accept Jesus. They have the free will to choose.

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Yeah but they really don't have a choice because of their geographical location in the Bible.

 

Certain men were born to fulfill certain prophecy. Psalm 83 was written well over 2,000 years ago.

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Yeah but they really don't have a choice because of their geographical location in the Bible.

 

Certain men were born to fulfill certain prophecy. Psalm 83 was written well over 2,000 years ago.

 

they DO have a choice. geographical location doesn't change a thing. would they be persecuted? sure. would they be killed for their faith? probably. and the bible says quite clearly that people will be persecuted and put to death for their faith. that hasn't changed in 2000 years.

 

but most islamic people will not make that choice. their hearts are too hard. their ears are deaf to the truth. they have a choice to serve the one true God, but instead, they choose to serve another god. that may be all they've ever known, but they've still heard the truth. they aren't unaware of the christian faith. they aren't ignorant of who Jesus is. they just choose not to serve Him. they choose to believe that christians are the infidels.

 

and they will fulfill prophecy.

 

not because of who they are or where they live, but because of whom they chose to serve. God knew this would happen from the beginning of time. He still gives them the choice... and there are some over there who will make the right one. the majority won't.

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not because of who they are or where they live, but because of whom they chose to serve. God knew this would happen from the beginning of time. He still gives them the choice...

 

I don't understand. If God writes it down before it happens how are they given free will. God already wrote in Psalm 83 that Muslims would be the enemy of God 2,000 years later. If the Muslims repented that would make God a liar. Muslims not repenting is what is suppose to happen. It is because of who they are and where they live.

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in the same way a mother knows that her child is going to sneak a piece of candy and then lie about it. the child still has the freedom to NOT sneak the candy, and the freedom to tell the truth, even though mom KNOWS what her kid is going to do before he does it.

 

and there are muslims who repent and turn to Christ. the majority will not. but they ALL have the choice that only a few will make.

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in the same way a mother knows that her child is going to sneak a piece of candy and then lie about it. the child still has the freedom to NOT sneak the candy, and the freedom to tell the truth, even though mom KNOWS what her kid is going to do before he does it.

 

and there are muslims who repent and turn to Christ. the majority will not. but they ALL have the choice that only a few will make.

 

I'm just having a hard time accepting God's foreknowledge while giving us free will. You will have to bare with me.

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Dscapp, I do believe all prophecies are set in stone.  I believe God gave us the ability to make our own choices, but he knew what those choices would be before he created us.  That means that we are accountable for what we do, but in another sense, the end is already known by our creator so free will is an illusion.  I didn't used to believe that, but having spent a great deal of time in the Bible, that is the conclusion I have come to. 

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the end is already known by our creator so free will is an illusion.  I didn't used to believe that, but having spent a great deal of time in the Bible, that is the conclusion I have come to. 

 

I believe free will is an illusion too. I personally think that God's foreknowledge and our free will is the most complicated topic in the Bible.

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in the same way a mother knows that her child is going to sneak a piece of candy and then lie about it. the child still has the freedom to NOT sneak the candy, and the freedom to tell the truth, even though mom KNOWS what her kid is going to do before he does it.

 

Yeah but we're talking about God, not a mother from North Dakota or something.

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God has the ability to look through time as we know it and see what our choices will be.  We, on the other hand, had not made the choices yet, so we don't.  Just because He knows and we don't does not exclude the fact that we will still be faced with a choice and the options that come with a choice.  People try to make this far too difficult.

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God has the ability to look through time as we know it and see what our choices will be.  We, on the other hand, had not made the choices yet, so we don't.  Just because He knows and we don't does not exclude the fact that we will still be faced with a choice and the options that come with a choice.  People try to make this far too difficult.

 

But if God knows we are going to make bad choices in life, why doesn't he do anything to stop us.

 

Why does the great white throne exist if he already knows who is going to hell.

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in the same way a mother knows that her child is going to sneak a piece of candy and then lie about it. the child still has the freedom to NOT sneak the candy, and the freedom to tell the truth, even though mom KNOWS what her kid is going to do before he does it.

 

and there are muslims who repent and turn to Christ. the majority will not. but they ALL have the choice that only a few will make.

 

I'm just having a hard time accepting God's foreknowledge while giving us free will. You will have to bare with me.

 

God knows who will accept him and who won't.  There is a difference between foreknowledge and foreordaining.

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God knows who will accept him and who won't.  There is a difference between foreknowledge and foreordaining.

 

Yeah but if God knows before they're even born then free will doesn't exist. Foreknowledge, free will and foreordaining are three different subjects.

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You have to have a basic understanding of God and eternity to see that there is no determinism or predestiny in the way you are thinking.

I can try to explain it to you, if you like, but it would take me awhile to write it out, and I do not want to go to the trouble if you are not interested. The short answer, though, I have already posted above.

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dscapp, it IS like the mother from north dakota "or something"... just like that woman is a mother, so God is our Father. his knowing what we will choose does not eliminate choice.

 

and your question as to why God wouldn't step into stop us from making bad choices? well, that brings us back to the same thing. He won't FORCE us to make better choices, because He would rather us make bad choices than to force Himself on us. 

 

that is the definition of free will. through my eyes, there's no illusion at all.

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You have to have a basic understanding of God and eternity to see that there is no determinism or predestiny in the way you are thinking.

I can try to explain it to you, if you like, but it would take me awhile to write it out, and I do not want to go to the trouble if you are not interested. The short answer, though, I have already posted above.

 

I'm interested. Please explain.

 

He won't FORCE us to make better choices, because He would rather us make bad choices than to force Himself on us. 

 

that is the definition of free will. through my eyes, there's no illusion at all.

 

Ok, he won't force us to make better choices, but he sits back and watches?

 

An no the mother and God are not the same, the mother isn't omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

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God knows who will accept him and who won't.  There is a difference between foreknowledge and foreordaining.

 

Yeah but if God knows before they're even born then free will doesn't exist. Foreknowledge, free will and foreordaining are three different subjects.

 

There is a difference between God knowing what is in the future and God controlling future events.    God did not decide what choices people will make, but he knows what they will choose to do in their free will.   There are fixed events that God has set.  But God knowing what wiill happen doesn't mean that no one has free will.  God knew what you would choose to eat for breakfast or if you would even eat breakfast.  But that knowledge doesn't force you to make any particular choice.

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But God knowing what wiill happen doesn't mean that no one has free will.  God knew what you would choose to eat for breakfast or if you would even eat breakfast.  But that knowledge doesn't force you to make any particular choice.

 

But I'm not talking about breakfast. I'm talking about hell. Breakfast isn't a horrible place of judgment. Free will is the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces. But it is determined by divine forces because God is divine and is also omnipotent and omniscient.

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God has the ability to look through time as we know it and see what our choices will be.  We, on the other hand, had not made the choices yet, so we don't.  Just because He knows and we don't does not exclude the fact that we will still be faced with a choice and the options that come with a choice.  People try to make this far too difficult.

 

But if God knows we are going to make bad choices in life, why doesn't he do anything to stop us.

 

 

Than that wold no longer be free will, would it?

 

Why does the great white throne exist if he already knows who is going to hell.

That is a question you will have to ask Him. I would think it would be because there will be some who are 100% they will be going to heaven due to their false religion that do not know they are going to be judged in such a manner. Having your life read back to you will highlight why they did not make it.

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You have to have a basic understanding of God and eternity to see that there is no determinism or predestiny in the way you are thinking.

I can try to explain it to you, if you like, but it would take me awhile to write it out, and I do not want to go to the trouble if you are not interested. The short answer, though, I have already posted above.

 

I'm interested. Please explain.

 

He won't FORCE us to make better choices, because He would rather us make bad choices than to force Himself on us. 

 

that is the definition of free will. through my eyes, there's no illusion at all.

 

Ok, he won't force us to make better choices, but he sits back and watches?

 

An no the mother and God are not the same, the mother isn't omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

 

 

God will only act in direct response to prayer. if your little old grandmother is praying for you, God's going to intervene and do what He can to put you back on the right path... everything short of forcing His will on you.  He knows whether His intervention in your life will turn you around or not, but it won't stop Him from trying to persuade you.

 

and true, a mother is not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. but she knows her child. and the Father knows His children... each of them. the real difference between a human parent and our heavenly Father is that God KNOWS, because He's already seen the future. a mother knows based only on the child's past.

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let me back pedal a bit. God does act on His own at times, not just in response to prayer. This can be seen in the OT stores about the patriarchs... abraham, for instance, who was the first "jew", so to speak. He didn't know anyone who knew God. and yet God called Him out of his life, out of his family, out of his whole culture.

 

but most of the time His intervention is in direct response to prayer.

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Than that wold no longer be free will, would it?

 

So he just let's people die nonbelievers? But then again God knew John Smith would die a nonbeliever.

 

That is a question you will have to ask Him. I would think it would be because there will be some who are 100% they will be going to heaven due to their false religion that do not know they are going to be judged in such a manner. Having your life read back to you will highlight why they did not make it.

 

But a person only knows God exists if the Father draws them in. If I were a nonbeliever at the great white throne then I would ask God why he didn't draw me in to salvation!

 

God will only act in direct response to prayer. if your little old grandmother is praying for you, God's going to intervene and do what He can to put you back on the right path... everything short of forcing His will on you.  He knows whether His intervention in your life will turn you around or not, but it won't stop Him from trying to persuade you.

 

and true, a mother is not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. but she knows her child. and the Father knows His children... each of them. the real difference between a human parent and our heavenly Father is that God KNOWS, because He's already seen the future. a mother knows based only on the child's past.

 

God will only act in direct response to prayer only if it aligns with his will. What if it's God's will for the grandson to not repent.

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