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Heaven and Hell

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#1
Godspells

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It seems recently a lot of stirring on this subject has occurred. I'm always interested to find Christian's perspective on the afterlife. I particularly find the arguments for annihilation, and I myself hopefully believe in universal reconciliation. 

 

What are you're thoughts about where we go when we die? 


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#2
GoldenEagle

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It seems recently a lot of stirring on this subject has occurred. I'm always interested to find Christian's perspective on the afterlife. I particularly find the arguments for annihilation, and I myself hopefully believe in universal reconciliation. 

 

What are you're thoughts about where we go when we die? 

 

Please explain what you mean by the concept you mentioned of universal reconciliation and how it relates to heaven and hell?

My thoughts off the top of my head are the Bible has a lot to say about eternal salvation and eternal life. :)

God bless,

GE


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#3
Reformed Baptist

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 Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιον) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιον) life." (NKJ)

 

The word of God is clear and provides absolutely no wriggle room on this issue at all, it is either eternal punishment or eternal life - and this life determines where the next will be spent! 


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#4
Godspells

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The cross created an ark of salvation and its capacity is enough to save EVERYONE. I hope everyone makes it as all Christians should. And presently I know no other way that God will be properly glorified, but I think that with a fallible human mind and I could be wrong.

 

In any case, Annihilation theology fits scriptural doctrine fairly well including Mathew 25.


Edited by Godspells, 08 August 2014 - 10:52 AM.

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#5
Reformed Baptist

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My friend, I would suggest you are wrong on several counts.

 

 

 

The cross created an ark of salvation and its capacity is enough to save EVERYONE.

 

I don't find that in my Bible, rather i find that Christ died for a certain groups of people. 

 

Joseph was told to call Mary's child Jesus because he would save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21 - Joseph was been told that the work of the cross would actually be effective, not just potentially effective, for a specific group. Turning to John 10 is becomes clear that Jesus Christ also understood this to be his mission, look at what he says in v11  "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. (NKJ) 

 

 

 

 I hope everyone makes it as all Christians should.

 

Should we desire something that God does not? 

 

 

 

And presently I know no other way that God will be properly glorified, but I think that with a fallible human mind and I could be wrong. 

 

It is not up to us to reason out how God would be best glorified, especially not when his word tells us how he will be glorified :D

 

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,  (NKJ)

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#6
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I'm not sure if an unsaved person spends eternity in hell or not.  Here's why:

 

Jesus says to fear the one who can destroy the soul. When that same word (destroy) is used elsewhere, it means to annihilate....to no longer exist.

God speaks of the eternal punishment. Now, most people read that as you will be punished for eternity. However, it can also mean just what it says, that the punishment is eternal. Meaning, the punishment never changes. It's the same punishment since the beginning of time and everyone who is not accepted into heaven will be subjected to the same punishment. So, it's the punishment that is eternal, not the soul.

Jesus tells a parable in Luke 12 where the slave knew his master's will and knowingly disobeyed. This slave received many lashes. The slave that did not know his master's will and disobeyed received few lashes. If everyone is cast into the same hell, how can there be "many" or "few" lashes?

Lastly, Jesus really only promises His followers one thing: eternal life. It seems like an empty promise if you have an eternal soul living in hell. I don't believe the creator of the universe would promise you something that you already have.

Anyway, that's my take on hell. If I were somehow forced to make a decision right now, I would say that a soul does not spend eternity in hell. The soul would be punished for a time (few vs. many lashes), and then be destroyed. I don't plan on knowing firsthand though. smile.png


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#7
Godspells

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My friend, I would suggest you are wrong on several counts.

I don't find that in my Bible, rather i find that Christ died for a certain groups of people. 

 

Joseph was told to call Mary's child Jesus because he would save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21 - Joseph was been told that the work of the cross would actually be effective, not just potentially effective, for a specific group. Turning to John 10 is becomes clear that Jesus Christ also understood this to be his mission, look at what he says in v11  "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. (NKJ) 

 

 

Should we desire something that God does not? 

 

It is not up to us to reason out how God would be best glorified, especially not when his word tells us how he will be glorified :D

 

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,  (NKJ)

 

 

I assume you are a Calvinist, which I am not, so we will probably not come to an understanding here, but nevertheless, I will address your assertions. 

 

In the early Church the term "Catholic" was applied which means universal, that is Christianity is a universal, world-wide religion, and the first one ever such. Christ died so that "whosoever believes in Him" has eternal life. The death was for all humanity should we choose to accept it. 

 

God does desire all to be saved, in fact it says the phrase almost verbatim. 

 

I believe that when someone repents and turns to God, it glorifies Him. If everyone repents and turns to God, how much more would that glorify Him? That is my logic, and perhaps I miss a key element, but I'm not pretending to be infallible. 


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#8
Godspells

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I'm not sure if an unsaved person spends eternity in hell or not.  Here's why:

 

Jesus says to fear the one who can destroy the soul. When that same word (destroy) is used elsewhere, it means to annihilate....to no longer exist.

God speaks of the eternal punishment. Now, most people read that as you will be punished for eternity. However, it can also mean just what it says, that the punishment is eternal. Meaning, the punishment never changes. It's the same punishment since the beginning of time and everyone who is not accepted into heaven will be subjected to the same punishment. So, it's the punishment that is eternal, not the soul.

Jesus tells a parable in Luke 12 where the slave knew his master's will and knowingly disobeyed. This slave received many lashes. The slave that did not know his master's will and disobeyed received few lashes. If everyone is cast into the same hell, how can there be "many" or "few" lashes?

Lastly, Jesus really only promises His followers one thing: eternal life. It seems like an empty promise if you have an eternal soul living in hell. I don't believe the creator of the universe would promise you something that you already have.

Anyway, that's my take on hell. If I were somehow forced to make a decision right now, I would say that a soul does not spend eternity in hell. The soul would be punished for a time (few vs. many lashes), and then be destroyed. I don't plan on knowing firsthand though. smile.png

 

Indeed. The ancient Hebrews had no concept of hell. And I think immortality of the soul being the default state of humanity has been accepted as a given in Christianity even though that is not clear. But then again, tradition has overwhelmingly held eternal torment. 

 

Annihilation, though, does not discount hell, it simply perceives that the soul is destroyed in hell and therein lies the eternal punishment. That doctrine fits quite well with the scriptures that otherwise indicate something contrary to eternal torment. 

 

I myself hold the Orthodox opinion that the unrighteous are temporarily cosigned to hades until the resurrection, upon which whatever state we have assigned ourselves to in this life, either self-serving or God-serving will determine how we experience the everlasting presence of God (i.e. hell or heaven). As CS Lewis contended, there are two types of people, those who say to God, "Thy Will be done" and those to whom God says, "Thy will be done".

 

I also assert that hell is consequential not punitive. It is, in a sense, the terminal stage of a disease called sin. Not the retribution of an angry God.  


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#9
Wildstar

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My friend, I would suggest you are wrong on several counts.

I don't find that in my Bible, rather i find that Christ died for a certain groups of people. 

 

Joseph was told to call Mary's child Jesus because he would save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21 - Joseph was been told that the work of the cross would actually be effective, not just potentially effective, for a specific group. Turning to John 10 is becomes clear that Jesus Christ also understood this to be his mission, look at what he says in v11  "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. (NKJ) 

 

 

Should we desire something that God does not? 

 

It is not up to us to reason out how God would be best glorified, especially not when his word tells us how he will be glorified :D

 

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,  (NKJ)

 

 

I assume you are a Calvinist, which I am not, so we will probably not come to an understanding here, but nevertheless, I will address your assertions. 

 

In the early Church the term "Catholic" was applied which means universal, that is Christianity is a universal, world-wide religion, and the first one ever such. Christ died so that "whosoever believes in Him" has eternal life. The death was for all humanity should we choose to accept it. 

 

God does desire all to be saved, in fact it says the phrase almost verbatim. 

 

I believe that when someone repents and turns to God, it glorifies Him. If everyone repents and turns to God, how much more would that glorify Him? That is my logic, and perhaps I miss a key element, but I'm not pretending to be infallible. 

 

He desires universal salvation Yes.  I can confirm I have also learned Catholic means universal.  Not referring to the RCC

 

1 Timothy 2:4

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

1 John 2:2

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


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#10
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I also assert that hell is consequential not punitive.
 
It is, in a sense, the terminal stage of a disease called sin.
 
Not the retribution of an angry God. 

 

~

 

The Justice Of A Just God

 

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

 

Or The Mercy Of A Gracious God

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

 

The Choice Is

 

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

 

Yours

 

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 1 Corinthians 5:20-21

 

Love, Joe


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#11
dscapp

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It seems recently a lot of stirring on this subject has occurred. I'm always interested to find Christian's perspective on the afterlife. I particularly find the arguments for annihilation, and I myself hopefully believe in universal reconciliation. 

 

What are you're thoughts about where we go when we die? 

 

Eternal life on the new earth with Jesus Christ and Eternal punishment in hell with the devil and his angels. My notes..

 

ETERNAL LIFE
35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)

 

GEHENNA & THE LAKE OF FIRE

Jer 31:38-40 38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

Isa. 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. 24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Both of those passages are referencing the millennial period. Isa 66 isn't talking about the new heavens and new earth.   Isaiah is comparing the perpetuity of the new heavens and new earth with the perpetuity of Israel's future offspring.  Read verse 22 carefully it is only making a comparison.   There will no moon in the new heavens and new earth so v. 23 cannot referencing that eternal time period.

Isa 66:24 - This is not Gehenna. Evidently, after the war of Armageddon, they will simply burn the bodies in the field where they lay.   There is no call for this to be an example of Gehenna. If that were the intent the author would have told us so.  You need to let the Bible speak for itself rather than attempting to assign values to the text.  

The text is using a bit of hyperbole to make the point that the fire is going to burn a long time, well into the milennium and people will be able to see the carcasses and it will serve as a reminder of what happened to those who rebelled against the Lord.   There is no connection here to Gehenna/Hell.

Rev 20:10/Olam/Forever and ever - The book of revelation was written in Greek. Forever and ever means forever and ever.

Isa 66:22-24 and Mark 9:43-48/Idiomatic language - The best scripture to prove that hell is eternal is Mark 9:43-48

Isa 47:14, Malachi 4:1, Malachi 4:3, Psalm 37:20 - None of those have anything to do with hell/lake of fire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEW EARTH INFO

No more sun and moon on new earth - Why create a new sun and moon if there's no use for them. Think think..
 
Rev 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
 
Isa 60:19-20 The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

New moon has nothing to do with being "new" as in re-created. Isa 66:23 is describing a new moon every month, (month to month) in the millenium. It has nothing to do with the new earth. What do these translations say, month to month...http://biblehub.com/isaiah/66-23.htm
 


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#12
FresnoJoe

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Master

 

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

 

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Matthew 9:47-48

 

Talk

 

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:47-48

 

~

 

I myself hold the Orthodox opinion that the unrighteous are temporarily cosigned to Hades until the resurrection,

 

upon which whatever state we have assigned ourselves to in this life,

 

either self-serving or God-serving

 

will determine how we experience the everlasting presence of God (i.e. hell or heaven).

 

:thumbsup:

 

Mocking God

 

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Romans 3:24-26

And Belittling The Blood Of Christ

 

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

 

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

So Why Believe In Jesus And Him Crucified

 

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

 

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

 

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:21-23

When One Can Assign Oneself To Salvation By Works Of Self Righteousness

 

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

 

(And A Little Time Spent In Hell?)

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

 

While Mocking The Son Of God

 

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

 

~

 

Beloved,

 

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:13-15

 

Although Pontificatores Will Often Philosophize With Self Importance

 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

 

While Proclaiming Themselves Most Holy

 

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Matthew 23:8-11

 

Only The Bible Holds The Whole Truth

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160
 

The Bible  contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers.

 

Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions immutable.

 

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy.

 

It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

 

It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter.

 

Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.

 

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end.

 

It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet.

 

Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.

 

It is a mine of wealth, a Paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

 

It is given to you in life, will be open in the judgment, and be remembered forever.

 

It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifle with its holy precepts.

 

From The Front Of My Gideon New Testament

 

Love, Joe


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#13
OneLight

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    I really enjoy discussing the Bible. There is so much to learn and so much to share.

    I am led to reach my hand out, in love, to those in need.

Fact: John 3:15 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Fiction: Everyone will be saved.  Revelation 20:15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."


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#14
GoldenEagle

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I'm not sure if an unsaved person spends eternity in hell or not.  Here's why:

 

Jesus says to fear the one who can destroy the soul. When that same word (destroy) is used elsewhere, it means to annihilate....to no longer exist.

God speaks of the eternal punishment. Now, most people read that as you will be punished for eternity. However, it can also mean just what it says, that the punishment is eternal. Meaning, the punishment never changes. It's the same punishment since the beginning of time and everyone who is not accepted into heaven will be subjected to the same punishment. So, it's the punishment that is eternal, not the soul.

Jesus tells a parable in Luke 12 where the slave knew his master's will and knowingly disobeyed. This slave received many lashes. The slave that did not know his master's will and disobeyed received few lashes. If everyone is cast into the same hell, how can there be "many" or "few" lashes?

Lastly, Jesus really only promises His followers one thing: eternal life. It seems like an empty promise if you have an eternal soul living in hell. I don't believe the creator of the universe would promise you something that you already have.

Anyway, that's my take on hell. If I were somehow forced to make a decision right now, I would say that a soul does not spend eternity in hell. The soul would be punished for a time (few vs. many lashes), and then be destroyed. I don't plan on knowing firsthand though. smile.png

 

I'm not sure regarding Luke 12 (and it being a parable) how much we should take from the passage... :noidea:

But what do we know about hell?

Hell – A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:18
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.


Hell – It will be a furnace of fire with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 13:40-43
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!



Hell – eternal fire, it's better to enter crippled or lame than to be there. (Matt. 18:8-9)

Matt. 18:8-9
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hellof fire.

Hell – a place of darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 22:11-13; Matt. 25:29-30)

Matt. 22:11-13
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and
[a] cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 25:29-30
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Hell - as opposed to everlasting life. (John 5:24)

John 5:24
Mo
st assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.


Hell - The punishment will be everlasting separation from the presence of God. (2 Thess. 1:9)

2 Thess. 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power…


Hell – a place where people will be burned with fire and brimstone.

Rev. 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Hell - Those who receive the Mark of the Beast (and reject Christ) will be tormented forever and will have no rest.

Rev. 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”


What are your thoughts on the passages above? Is hell eternal torment?

God bless,
GE


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#15
GoldenEagle

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It seems recently a lot of stirring on this subject has occurred. I'm always interested to find Christian's perspective on the afterlife. I particularly find the arguments for annihilation, and I myself hopefully believe in universal reconciliation. 

 

What are you're thoughts about where we go when we die? 

 

See previous post about hell. Also of interest to note... The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation.  The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the below.

Re: Eternal

The phrase is as follows:

 

forever and ever
aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"

 

Eternal - without end

1 Tim. 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

 

Eternal Damnation

Rev. 19:3

Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!”

Rev. 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone wherethe beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end and extending into infinity.

Also worth examining is... 

 

Rev. 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. 

 

This passage of Scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

 

God bless,

GE


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#16
GoldenEagle

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The cross created an ark of salvation and its capacity is enough to save EVERYONE. I hope everyone makes it as all Christians should. And presently I know no other way that God will be properly glorified, but I think that with a fallible human mind and I could be wrong.

 

In any case, Annihilation theology fits scriptural doctrine fairly well including Mathew 25.

Please explain your view of annihilation theology, how it fits with Scripture fairly well, and how Matthew 25 is applied to this concept?

God bless,

GE


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#17
GoldenEagle

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The cross created an ark of salvation and its capacity is enough to save EVERYONE. I hope everyone makes it as all Christians should. And presently I know no other way that God will be properly glorified, but I think that with a fallible human mind and I could be wrong.

 

Christ died so that "whosoever believes in Him" has eternal life. The death was for all humanity should we choose to accept it. 

 

God does desire all to be saved, in fact it says the phrase almost verbatim. 

 

I believe that when someone repents and turns to God, it glorifies Him. If everyone repents and turns to God, how much more would that glorify Him? That is my logic, and perhaps I miss a key element, but I'm not pretending to be infallible. 

 

 

 

He desires universal salvation Yes.  I can confirm I have also learned Catholic means universal.  Not referring to the RCC

 

1 Timothy 2:4

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

1 John 2:2

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

Re: Universalism (Part 1)

Yes, while Christ died for the sins of the entire world not everyone will be called or choose to accept Jesus Christ (however you view predestination or free will). This means some accept the Holy Spirit's testimony about Jesus and others reject His testimony.


 

Does this verse prove that God will save all people? No, it simply states that God "will have all men to be saved." The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" (1 Cor. 7:36), or "desire" (Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:17). God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved. But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out?

Well, yes and no. God wants that people not sin. Do they sin? Yes. Is God's will accomplished in this? No. Is God in control? Yes, yet His will that they not sin is not carried out. They will be judged for their sins (if not justified by faith in Christ) and fall under the condemnation of God.

Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11..


"Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?"

Will they perish? Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ:

John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."


 

Consider the case of a righteous judge who must sentence a man to death. The judge is a good man, honest, and full of mercy. Yet, he must enforce the law set before him. Is it his will (desire) to sentence the man to death? No. But, because there are laws, he must enforce them. Likewise it is with God. He desires that people not perish; but many will because they reject God and His Messiah. They will then face the judgment of the Lawgiver. The Law will be enforced.
 

So, does 1 Timothy 2:4 prove that God will save all men? No, it does not.

 

Does this make sense?

God bless,

GE


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#18
GoldenEagle

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Indeed. The ancient Hebrews had no concept of hell. And I think immortality of the soul being the default state of humanity has been accepted as a given in Christianity even though that is not clear. But then again, tradition has overwhelmingly held eternal torment. 

 

Annihilation, though, does not discount hell, it simply perceives that the soul is destroyed in hell and therein lies the eternal punishment. That doctrine fits quite well with the scriptures that otherwise indicate something contrary to eternal torment. 

 

I myself hold the Orthodox opinion that the unrighteous are temporarily cosigned to hades until the resurrection, upon which whatever state we have assigned ourselves to in this life, either self-serving or God-serving will determine how we experience the everlasting presence of God (i.e. hell or heaven). As CS Lewis contended, there are two types of people, those who say to God, "Thy Will be done" and those to whom God says, "Thy will be done".

 

I also assert that hell is consequential not punitive. It is, in a sense, the terminal stage of a disease called sin. Not the retribution of an angry God.  

 

 

Re: OT and Hebrew Concept of Hell

The OT is full of the concept of the Day of Judgment or the Day of the Lord. See Psalm 110:5 for example.


Psalm 110:5
The Lord is at your right hand;
    he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath.



Daniel clearly described this day as eternal. See Daniel 12:2 for example

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Yet the word sheol or hell is not used in the OT but instead the translation “death” or “place of the dead” is more accurate. See Is. 14:15 for example.

Is. 14:15
But you are brought down to Sheol,
    to the far reaches of the pit.

 

So it is reasonable to assert that the OT also speaks to a place where death and the dead remain. That would equate to the NT concept of Hell.


Re: Where do you get this "Orthodox Opinion" that those who reject God are temporarily cosigned to hades (hell)?

God bless,

GE


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#19
Godspells

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Golden Eagle, you posted several messages in series, so I'm going to address the main points in this one post to avoid confusing the topic. 

 

On Universal Reconciliation/Salvation 

 

There are essentially two flavors of this theory, the first is what is known as  apocatastasis which roughly mean a return to the original state, specifically an "undoing" of the fall of man. A particular form of this theory was purported by Origen and it, along with several other theologies he purported, were condemned. 

 

The other flavor is what I would describe as a "hopeful" universalist. That is someone who hopes, and perhaps even faithfully believes, that ultimately everyone will be saved, but does not purport it as a dogma as Origen did. In that sense, it is more of conception people hold that they simply cannot understand how the Cross could fail to save everyone. It is, however, the admission of fallibility (that someone could be wrong, but with my current understanding this way makes the most sense) that ultimately makes this an acceptable theology. 

 

On Annihilationism 

 

The passage, "Fear not he who can destroy the body but not the soul, but rather fear He who can destroy both the body and the soul in hell (Gehenna)." 

 

That of course indicates that the principal punishment for apostasy or disbelief would be the eternal non-existence of the person. That fits well with the concept that the punishment for original sin is death. And in the case of Matthew 25, the punishment would indeed be eternal.

 

That being said, I myself do not hold a belief in annihilation, simply because it does not have a strong root in Church tradition, although if someone believes in sola scriptura, I think annihilation could be considered a valid position.

 

As to the Orthodox Opinion, that is literally the position held by most Orthodox Bishops. It is the prevailing opinion in the Church albeit unofficial. The Orthodox take a different approach to doctrinal theology than most western traditions (most describe western Catholics and the Protestants who came from them as utilizing scholasticism, while Orthodox believe in mystery). 

 

Though you misunderstood the position. Hades does not equate with Hell. Hades is the Greek rendition of the Hebrew Sheol, which means the common grave. Abraham and the Jews were cosigned to Hades within "Abraham's Bosom" and sheltered from the fire their until the death of our Lord and the harrowing of Hades. Now, those who die outside of the grace of God are cosigned there until the general judgment whereupon the unrighteous are subjected to the almighty presence of God, which for them, will be hellish.

 

The main difference between Eastern and Western concepts of Hell are not so much this limited time in Hades, though, but whether or not Hell is eternal separation or eternal presentation from/to God. I find the western idea of a cosmic torture chamber to be a bit unseemly, and furthermore that the Eastern concept simply makes more sense. 


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#20
FresnoJoe

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The main difference between Eastern and Western concepts of Hell are not so much this limited time in Hades, though, but whether or not Hell is eternal separation or eternal presentation from/to God. I find the western idea of a cosmic torture chamber to be a bit unseemly, and furthermore that the Eastern concept simply makes more sense. 

 

:thumbsup:

 

The Main Difference Between The Truth

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

And The Lie Straight From The Pit

 

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(a-c )

 

Is The Holy Bible

 

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Mark 13:31

 

And Christ

 

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36


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