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How does the prophetic clock work in God's eyes?

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#1
OakWood

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I've just been thinking of something.

 

We all know that the formation of the modern state of Israel has an important significance in prophecy and a number of prophecies are meant to be fulfilled during this generation. However when was Israel actually formed? I see three options.

 

1/ Israel was re-formed sometime in the late Nineteenth or early Twentieth Centuries. This is when Jews started coming back and rebuilding the nation. However we don't really have a specific date or year to work with here.

 

2/ 14th May 1948. This is when Israel was officially recognised as a country by the U.N. Historians view this date as the start of the new country. However our views may differ from the way God thinks.

 

3/ June 1967. At the end of the Six-day War, the Jews finally reclaimed Jerusalem as their own for the first time in around 1,900 years. It came into their possession and they also gained control of the Temple Mount. Is this really the time when new Israel was born?

 

Your opinions please.


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#2
Omegaman

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Who knows, but I will offer a couple of observations without details:

 

1. The modern nation of Israel, does not occupy the boundaries God set for it.

2. The term Israel, has several meanings in scripture, check context to assess whether, if ever, the term is referring to the modern nation/state.


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#3
OakWood

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Who knows, but I will offer a couple of observations without details:

 

1. The modern nation of Israel, does not occupy the boundaries God set for it.

2. The term Israel, has several meanings in scripture, check context to assess whether, if ever, the term is referring to the modern nation/state.

 

1. Good point. I wonder if that has any significance. I personally feel that that the status of Jerusalem is far more important than the overall boundaries (my gut instinct says 1967).

 

2. I usually do check but I still believe that the modern nation has a prophetic significance, and my question is really asking "when is it's birth?" rather than the minutiae of what prophecy applies to which definition. But it's still a good point worth remembering.


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#4
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An important piece of prophecy can be found in Matthew 24:32-35

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.


We know that when the fig tree bloom (Israel becoming rebuilt), the generation that begins this will not pass before the tribulation is completed and He returns.
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Last Daze

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I've just been thinking of something.

 

We all know that the formation of the modern state of Israel has an important significance in prophecy and a number of prophecies are meant to be fulfilled during this generation. However when was Israel actually formed? I see three options.

 

1/ Israel was re-formed sometime in the late Nineteenth or early Twentieth Centuries. This is when Jews started coming back and rebuilding the nation. However we don't really have a specific date or year to work with here.

 

2/ 14th May 1948. This is when Israel was officially recognised as a country by the U.N. Historians view this date as the start of the new country. However our views may differ from the way God thinks.

 

3/ June 1967. At the end of the Six-day War, the Jews finally reclaimed Jerusalem as their own for the first time in around 1,900 years. It came into their possession and they also gained control of the Temple Mount. Is this really the time when new Israel was born?

 

Your opinions please.

 

Since I see the final world kingdom starting off as a multinational power (feet of iron and clay) presumably the UN, the 1948 day to me is significant.  I think the first seal corresponds to the Rev 13:2 release of the beast from the abyss (fallen angel) and that happened prior to 1948.  The fallen angel then caused the UN to come into being which then recognized Israel.


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#6
Jesse

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This prophecy is about israel to day.  (the first gathering of israel).

God has gathered israel back to their own land ; but he will also send hunters to hunt them down.

There is a second gathering after this one.(in my next post).

 

Jeremiah 16:13 Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.

Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

Jeremiah 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Jeremiah 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

Jeremiah 16:17 For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes.

Jeremiah 16:18 And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.

jesse.


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The second gathering of israel.

They will dwell safely; in the kingdom of the saints,which is paradise for those dwelling there.

They will be at rest.

 

Jeremiah 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Jeremiah 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

Jeremiah 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Jeremiah 32:41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

Jeremiah 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

Jeremiah 32:43 And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.

Jeremiah 32:44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.
 

jesse.


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#8
Jesse

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Is there anyone that is interested in those prophesies?

Why is the house in silence?

 

jesse.


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Is there anyone that is interested in those prophesies?

Why is the house in silence?

 

jesse.

 

Probably because you don't realize some of those Jeremiah verses are not for the times you speak of.


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Is there anyone that is interested in those prophesies?

Why is the house in silence?

 

jesse.

 

Probably because you don't realize some of those Jeremiah verses are not for the times you speak of.

 

Please explain why not?

 

jesse.


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#11
Salty

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Probably because you don't realize some of those Jeremiah verses are not for the times you speak of.

 

Please explain why not?

 

jesse.

 

 

Jer.16

14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

15 But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

 

That above is put for the gathering of all... the tribes of Israel back to the holy lands of promise, both houses. At present, and for several centuries past, the ones that have returned are only a small remnant of the Jews of the "house of Judah", put for the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Per 1 Kings 11 forward, only a small group of the northern ten tribes migrated south to join with Judah because of God splitting the kingdom and giving Jeroboam to rule over ten tribes in the north, called the "house of Israel". Those ten tribes of Israel are not being gathered today, they are still lost, even the Jews don't know where or who those ten tribes are today. But our Heavenly Father knows as He has shown in His Word.

 

So with those two above Jer.16 verses, that is the day of Christ's coming when He will gather all the tribes of Israel back together again in the holy land, believing Gentiles with them. That's when it will be no more said how God led Israel out of Egypt, but how He gathered Israel out of the nations where He scattered them, and brought them back to their own lands of promise. That event is also covered in Ezekiel 37 about the joining of the two sticks of Israel into one stick when Jesus comes.

 

16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

 

Do you recall those who seek to hide from Christ on His appearing per the 6th Seal? That's about the unbelievers of Israel that rejected Him during this present world, even they will be gathered on that day.

 

Now the Jer.16:17-21 verses are for today, the end even, the tribulation time of affliction, and then God revealing Himself to them with Christ's coming.

 

 

In the next Jeremiah 33 chapter, God's Message about the gathering of Judah is continued, this time to include the ten tribes of Israel.

 

Jer.33

For thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city, and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah, which are thrown down by the mounts, and by the sword;

They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in Mine anger and in My fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid My face from this city.

Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.

And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.

 

Notice how God marks both 'houses' in that verse with 1) "the captivity of Judah", and 2) "the captivity of Israel". In several places in the OT after God split ancient Israel into two separate kingdoms, the name 'Israel' was often only applied to the ten tribed northern kingdom, called after the split "house of Israel", "kingdom of Israel", "Samaria", "Ephraim", or just "Israel".

 

And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against Me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against Me.

And it shall be to Me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

 

Those v.8-9 are also about the time after Christ's coming and their gathering back to the holy lands. It's certainly not for today, not with the tribulation of false idol worship at Jerusalem coming just around the corner. The coming tribulation time will be the worst example of false idol worship in Jerusalem that has ever been in the history of this world. The king of Babylon is coming once again, and it won't be Nebuchadnezzar like that one of Jeremiah's day.


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#12
Jesse

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Probably because you don't realize some of those Jeremiah verses are not for the times you speak of.

 

Please explain why not?

 

jesse.

 

 

Jer.16

14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

15 But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

 

That above is put for the gathering of all... the tribes of Israel back to the holy lands of promise, both houses. At present, and for several centuries past, the ones that have returned are only a small remnant of the Jews of the "house of Judah", put for the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Per 1 Kings 11 forward, only a small group of the northern ten tribes migrated south to join with Judah because of God splitting the kingdom and giving Jeroboam to rule over ten tribes in the north, called the "house of Israel". Those ten tribes of Israel are not being gathered today, they are still lost, even the Jews don't know where or who those ten tribes are today. But our Heavenly Father knows as He has shown in His Word.

 

So with those two above Jer.16 verses, that is the day of Christ's coming when He will gather all the tribes of Israel back together again in the holy land, believing Gentiles with them. That's when it will be no more said how God led Israel out of Egypt, but how He gathered Israel out of the nations where He scattered them, and brought them back to their own lands of promise. That event is also covered in Ezekiel 37 about the joining of the two sticks of Israel into one stick when Jesus comes.

 

16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

 

Do you recall those who seek to hide from Christ on His appearing per the 6th Seal? That's about the unbelievers of Israel that rejected Him during this present world, even they will be gathered on that day.

 

Now the Jer.16:17-21 verses are for today, the end even, the tribulation time of affliction, and then God revealing Himself to them with Christ's coming.

 

 

In the next Jeremiah 33 chapter, God's Message about the gathering of Judah is continued, this time to include the ten tribes of Israel.

 

Jer.33

For thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city, and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah, which are thrown down by the mounts, and by the sword;

They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in Mine anger and in My fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid My face from this city.

Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.

And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.

 

Notice how God marks both 'houses' in that verse with 1) "the captivity of Judah", and 2) "the captivity of Israel". In several places in the OT after God split ancient Israel into two separate kingdoms, the name 'Israel' was often only applied to the ten tribed northern kingdom, called after the split "house of Israel", "kingdom of Israel", "Samaria", "Ephraim", or just "Israel".

 

And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against Me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against Me.

And it shall be to Me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

 

Those v.8-9 are also about the time after Christ's coming and their gathering back to the holy lands. It's certainly not for today, not with the tribulation of false idol worship at Jerusalem coming just around the corner. The coming tribulation time will be the worst example of false idol worship in Jerusalem that has ever been in the history of this world. The king of Babylon is coming once again, and it won't be Nebuchadnezzar like that one of Jeremiah's day.

 

Salty.

 

You have not read those prophesies carefully.

 

(1).Its about the first gathering which happened in 1948. They dont live in peace.

 

(2).And the second  gathering into the kingdom coming soon.(the first dominion).micah4:8.They will be at rest.

 

jesse.


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#13
Salty

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Salty.

 

You have not read those prophesies carefully.

 

(1).Its about the first gathering which happened in 1948. They dont live in peace.

 

(2).And the second  gathering into the kingdom coming soon.(the first dominion).micah4:8.They will be at rest.

 

jesse.

 

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree then, because "the children of Israel" in the Jer.16:14-15 verses are about all... of Israel inclusive, just as it meant when God led the children of Israel out of Egypt in Moses' day.

 

The majority of the "house of Judah" was scattered further out of Babylon after their 70 years captivity, never to return to Jerusalem to this day. Only a remnant of them returned in 1948, and in previous centuries (like 7th century A.D. when European nations like Spain deported those of them who refused to convert to Christ). The majority of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi are still scattered among the nations today. Only remnants of them are returning to the state of Israel. Jer.16 is about the return of all of them, along with the ten lost tribes. Another fact is that many of the Jews migrating to the state of Israel today are religious Jews, strangers that converted to Judaism back in their history. So not even the majority of Jews in the state of Israel are actually bloodline Jews of the seed of Israel.


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#14
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Hi Oak Wood,

 

My take on this concerning Israel as a nation in God`s prophetic time clock is - 

 

1. 1948 for that is when they declared they were a nation.

2. Also other nations became independent (eg. many nations of the British Empire became part of the Commonwealth but with their independence).

 

`behold the fig tree & ALL THE TREES, as soon as they put forth leaves you see it & know for yourselves that the summer is now near.` (Luke 21: 29 & 30)  


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#15
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We have Jews from Russia, from India, from Ethiopia, the USA, Europe, Africa......     these people are not all of the line of Judah, they are the whole house of Israel.......   except maybe Dan.

 

That's my take on who they are.    It would be interesting to do DNA tests on a couple of thousand to see how they fit together as a group.


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#16
Jesse

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Salty.

 

You have not read those prophesies carefully.

 

(1).Its about the first gathering which happened in 1948. They dont live in peace.

 

(2).And the second  gathering into the kingdom coming soon.(the first dominion).micah4:8.They will be at rest.

 

jesse.

 

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree then, because "the children of Israel" in the Jer.16:14-15 verses are about all... of Israel inclusive, just as it meant when God led the children of Israel out of Egypt in Moses' day.

 

The majority of the "house of Judah" was scattered further out of Babylon after their 70 years captivity, never to return to Jerusalem to this day. Only a remnant of them returned in 1948, and in previous centuries (like 7th century A.D. when European nations like Spain deported those of them who refused to convert to Christ). The majority of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi are still scattered among the nations today. Only remnants of them are returning to the state of Israel. Jer.16 is about the return of all of them, along with the ten lost tribes. Another fact is that many of the Jews migrating to the state of Israel today are religious Jews, strangers that converted to Judaism back in their history. So not even the majority of Jews in the state of Israel are actually bloodline Jews of the seed of Israel.

 

Salty.

 

Israel today is as sodom and egypt spiritually.rev.11:8.

They will be punished soon jer 25: 29.

 

jesse.


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#17
Salty

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I've just been thinking of something.

 

We all know that the formation of the modern state of Israel has an important significance in prophecy and a number of prophecies are meant to be fulfilled during this generation. However when was Israel actually formed? I see three options.

 

1/ Israel was re-formed sometime in the late Nineteenth or early Twentieth Centuries. This is when Jews started coming back and rebuilding the nation. However we don't really have a specific date or year to work with here.

 

2/ 14th May 1948. This is when Israel was officially recognised as a country by the U.N. Historians view this date as the start of the new country. However our views may differ from the way God thinks.

 

3/ June 1967. At the end of the Six-day War, the Jews finally reclaimed Jerusalem as their own for the first time in around 1,900 years. It came into their possession and they also gained control of the Temple Mount. Is this really the time when new Israel was born?

 

Your opinions please.

 

I hold to 1948. Reasons are that after the 1967 war the Jewish leaders (like Dyan) gave up part of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, heeding U.N. controls which are still affecting Israel's borders today. How many times has Israel had to give up dwellings because of U.N. controls just in the last couple of decades? The IDF fights off Arab attacks, taking land outside the U.N. determined borders and they have to give it back to the Arabs. This reveals the U.N. has most of the control over Israel's borders.

 

A quick look at the borders of the old kingdom of Israel reveals a lot more land area than today's Israel state, so how can that be overlooked too? In relation to what God said in Isaiah 19 with Assyria, Israel, and Egypt each being one third in His future Kingdom, how can that be overlooked also, since it has yet to come to pass?

 

There really hasn't ever been a time when Jerusalem/Judea didn't have anyone of Judah not living there. Even in Nebuchadnezzar's time with the Babylon captivity some of the poor of Judah were still left in the land. This was because of God's promise He made in 1 Kings 11 that He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake. Jews have been returning to the land for centuries. In 1948 only a portion of them returned then too. But what was different was that Israel became a recognized state again, fulfilling the Jer.24 prophecy which also was to give us the start of the countdown for the end of this world leading up to Christ's second coming per His parable of the fig tree.


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#18
OakWood

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I've just been thinking of something.

 

We all know that the formation of the modern state of Israel has an important significance in prophecy and a number of prophecies are meant to be fulfilled during this generation. However when was Israel actually formed? I see three options.

 

1/ Israel was re-formed sometime in the late Nineteenth or early Twentieth Centuries. This is when Jews started coming back and rebuilding the nation. However we don't really have a specific date or year to work with here.

 

2/ 14th May 1948. This is when Israel was officially recognised as a country by the U.N. Historians view this date as the start of the new country. However our views may differ from the way God thinks.

 

3/ June 1967. At the end of the Six-day War, the Jews finally reclaimed Jerusalem as their own for the first time in around 1,900 years. It came into their possession and they also gained control of the Temple Mount. Is this really the time when new Israel was born?

 

Your opinions please.

 

I hold to 1948. Reasons are that after the 1967 war the Jewish leaders (like Dyan) gave up part of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, heeding U.N. controls which are still affecting Israel's borders today. How many times has Israel had to give up dwellings because of U.N. controls just in the last couple of decades? The IDF fights off Arab attacks, taking land outside the U.N. determined borders and they have to give it back to the Arabs. This reveals the U.N. has most of the control over Israel's borders.

 

A quick look at the borders of the old kingdom of Israel reveals a lot more land area than today's Israel state, so how can that be overlooked too? In relation to what God said in Isaiah 19 with Assyria, Israel, and Egypt each being one third in His future Kingdom, how can that be overlooked also, since it has yet to come to pass?

 

There really hasn't ever been a time when Jerusalem/Judea didn't have anyone of Judah not living there. Even in Nebuchadnezzar's time with the Babylon captivity some of the poor of Judah were still left in the land. This was because of God's promise He made in 1 Kings 11 that He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake. Jews have been returning to the land for centuries. In 1948 only a portion of them returned then too. But what was different was that Israel became a recognized state again, fulfilling the Jer.24 prophecy which also was to give us the start of the countdown for the end of this world leading up to Christ's second coming per His parable of the fig tree.

 

 

I think I can hold to 1948 too, but my mind is open for 67 as well. and as you say, even the borders are not defined to yet either.


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#19
rjp34652

rjp34652

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I've just been thinking of something.

 

We all know that the formation of the modern state of Israel has an important significance in prophecy and a number of prophecies are meant to be fulfilled during this generation. However when was Israel actually formed? I see three options.

 

1/ Israel was re-formed sometime in the late Nineteenth or early Twentieth Centuries. This is when Jews started coming back and rebuilding the nation. However we don't really have a specific date or year to work with here.

 

2/ 14th May 1948. This is when Israel was officially recognised as a country by the U.N. Historians view this date as the start of the new country. However our views may differ from the way God thinks.

 

3/ June 1967. At the end of the Six-day War, the Jews finally reclaimed Jerusalem as their own for the first time in around 1,900 years. It came into their possession and they also gained control of the Temple Mount. Is this really the time when new Israel was born?

 

Your opinions please.

 

History develops in patterns, much like the life of an individual.

 

If all the separate parts of a pattern continue and gather strength, then a tipping point is reached and a permanent change is effected.  If enough parts do not meet or if certain parts are halted prior to the tipping point, then a major event does not happen.

 

For example, in the Bible it was recorded in several places that attacks were imminent upon Jerusalem until a rumor or an assassination caused the leader to turn back to his home country.  The break point in the pattern of events was the rumor or assassination.  If that had not happened, it is quite likely Jerusalem would have been sacked.

 

I know a man who had great talent and a great arm for playing baseball.  All the advantages were gained and all the right connections were made until he began to play in the majors.  When he threw his shoulder out, his career ended right there on the spot.  A minor change in an otherwise insignificant body part ruined a man's future.

 

In the case of the establishment of the modern state of Israel in May of 1948, history records that date as the official inauguration.   That date was the tipping point.   How far back do you want to collect data for the reformation of the nation?  I doubt you'd find an event other than Russian persecutions to point at.  Before that date, Palestine was merely a British mandate with Jewish settlements.  After that date - Israel.

 

Interestingly, there are a number of patterned events in play today that may lead to a bigger tipping point in history.  Is the antiChrist about to ascend to the stage of history?  Is the return of Jesus Christ (the Christian Jesus, not the Islamic Jesus) imminent?

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...  


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#20
Defending the Name

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God's prophetic clock revolves around himself. When he came into the world that signalled the middle of the 70th week in Daniel, yet he confirms the blood covenant with many in one week, which is the 70th week. So the symbolic two witnesses preach the remainder of the 70th week until the end. The entire new covenant age is symbolised by the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks.

Time piece is The Lord himself. As far as unbelieving Jews today who have become Gentiles in the sight of God, well he will commission them as the 11th hour workmen. Remember the 1st hour workmen were the Jewish apostles, then came the 3rd, 6th and 9th hour workmen who were predominantly once gentile believers before they were adopted into the commonwealth of Israel and called spiritual Jews.

The first to receive the gospel will be the last to to accept it and God's time piece places the house of Jacob as the 11th hour workmen who will be brought from the brink of destruction by the Assyrians (men of Nineveh) and then to be united with the remaining Christian nations (symbolic of Egypt) in the final march and concerted effort in preaching the everlasting gospel for the last and final time, before they are taken out by Satan and his wicked servants.

Edited by Defending the Name, 10 September 2014 - 07:52 PM.

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