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The "Just War"

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#1
OldSchool2

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from The American Spectator:

"The Vatican, working off Catholic doctrine of just war, has announced that it condones American military intervention in Iraq, the Washington Times reported last week. The Holy See’s ambassador to the United Nations, Silvano Tomasi, is quoted as saying, 'Military action might be necessary' and calling for, 'intervention now, before it is too late' ...

"Just war theory is perhaps best summarized in paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It reads:

"The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
•the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
•all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
•there must be serious prospects of success;
•the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

"These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the 'just war' doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good ..."

http://spectator.org...-iraq-not-syria

The last condition -- "the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated" -- is especially problematic and subjective, e.g., Hiroshima, Gaza, etc.
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#2
other one

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If there is ever was/is a just war, wiping out ISIS would have to be at the top of the list.


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#3
OakWood

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If there is ever was/is a just war, wiping out ISIS would have to be at the top of the list.

 

Wiping out Hamas is equally justified but they'd never consider that because Israel is involved.


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#4
Cletus

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I googled catholic just war doctorine and based on facts about what america is doing over there and what it says in the just war doctorine it appears the vatican is once again saying a bunch of nothing that "sounds good."

Also I would like to point out that by condemning americas presence the terrorists would prevail. This shpws they support slaughter and persecution of christians and muslims. IMO.
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#5
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The pope says we should do something to stop this.   The pope can't.    We defanged the church a long time ago.


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#6
rjp34652

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If there is ever was/is a just war, wiping out ISIS would have to be at the top of the list.

 

America is being persuaded to believe nonsense like that so as to be easily led into another long expensive bloody meaningless conflict.

 

Consider that legitimate news sources like TIME Magazine have established that ISIS is funded by the GCC (*) thru offices of the Syrian National Committee in Istanbul.  That's a bogus charity by the way.  The organization is used to collect money and to purchase weapons and supplies for al Qaeda and ISIL/ISIS/The Islamic State or whatever they are calling themselves this week.   France recently finalized a lucrative arms deal with these folks.  The ultimate purpose for all this activity, which has been going on for several years now, is to secure the Levant for Sunni Islam.  This includes Syria, an invasion of which was neatly deescalated by the Russians in the summer of 2013.  

 

What we are witnessing now, the big picture as it were, is an attempt to revive the old Ottoman caliphate.  Muslim eschatology, and Christian end times interpretations as well, state that the twelfth caliphate will be established prior to the second coming of Jesus.  Christians read that a revived Roman Empire will be in place, not understanding or knowing that historically the Ottomans WERE the last vestiges of the old Roman political influence prior to its collapse in 1927.

 

The great deception spoken of by the Bible will be the Muslim Jesus, called Isa in the Qur'an.  This bogus prophet will fool almost everyone.  Evidence of this is the gullibility of Americans today as they gather their pretty flags, wave them and shout God Bless America as they send their sons into battle.  The boys will be persuaded that they are fighting for freedom when all the time they will be suffering in support of a Muslim crusade for the establishment of sharia law throughout the Levant.

 

It's all there for anyone to read if they take their fingers out of their ears and their heads out of the sand and pay attention to something of substance other than the latest video binge.  Our leaders are lying to us like the snakes they are and we are following them to destruction.

 

Why is God allowing this to happen to us?  Because decades ago, America decided to put its trust in military arms instead of the Almighty.  Now our sins are catching up with us and we are paying the price for it in blood and treasure.

 

So go ahead and cheer for the old home team as I'm sure so many will do.   Only know that it will end in disaster and America will gain no profit from any of it.  We've been suckered into too many games of monkey-in-the-middle and we're being played again.  Funny thing is that we never win that game.  Any kid can tell you that.  Most adults have forgotten.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*)  GCC is an acronym for Gulf Cooperation Council.  It's member nations include Bahrain, Kuwait, the UAE, Oman, Qatar, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. 


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#7
chloe_fantastic

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With what money? We're beyond broke!


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#8
coheir

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from The American Spectator:

"The Vatican, working off Catholic doctrine of just war, has announced that it condones American military intervention in Iraq, the Washington Times reported last week. The Holy See’s ambassador to the United Nations, Silvano Tomasi, is quoted as saying, 'Military action might be necessary' and calling for, 'intervention now, before it is too late' ...

"Just war theory is perhaps best summarized in paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It reads:

"The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
•the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
•all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
•there must be serious prospects of success;
•the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

"These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the 'just war' doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good ..."

http://spectator.org...-iraq-not-syria

The last condition -- "the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated" -- is especially problematic and subjective, e.g., Hiroshima, Gaza, etc.

if one followed these rules for war then they are basically agreeing  before the war to lose the war before it starts.


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#9
FresnoJoe

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if one followed these rules for war then they are basically agreeing  before the war to lose the war before it starts.

 

:thumbsup:

 

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:4-14

 

Bless The Holy Name Of Jesus~!


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#10
kwikphilly

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Blessings Everyone

 

If there is ever was/is a just war, wiping out ISIS would have to be at the top of the list.                                                                                posted by other one

So true,,,,,,especially the first part of our Brothers statement                       uggh                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

Bless The Holy Name Of Jesus~!                                                                                                           posted by Fresno Joe

Amen!


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#11
OakWood

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If there is ever was/is a just war, wiping out ISIS would have to be at the top of the list.

 

America is being persuaded to believe nonsense like that so as to be easily led into another long expensive bloody meaningless conflict.

 

Consider that legitimate news sources like TIME Magazine have established that ISIS is funded by the GCC (*) thru offices of the Syrian National Committee in Istanbul.  That's a bogus charity by the way.  The organization is used to collect money and to purchase weapons and supplies for al Qaeda and ISIL/ISIS/The Islamic State or whatever they are calling themselves this week.   France recently finalized a lucrative arms deal with these folks.  The ultimate purpose for all this activity, which has been going on for several years now, is to secure the Levant for Sunni Islam.  This includes Syria, an invasion of which was neatly deescalated by the Russians in the summer of 2013.  

 

What we are witnessing now, the big picture as it were, is an attempt to revive the old Ottoman caliphate.  Muslim eschatology, and Christian end times interpretations as well, state that the twelfth caliphate will be established prior to the second coming of Jesus.  Christians read that a revived Roman Empire will be in place, not understanding or knowing that historically the Ottomans WERE the last vestiges of the old Roman political influence prior to its collapse in 1927.

 

The great deception spoken of by the Bible will be the Muslim Jesus, called Isa in the Qur'an.  This bogus prophet will fool almost everyone.  Evidence of this is the gullibility of Americans today as they gather their pretty flags, wave them and shout God Bless America as they send their sons into battle.  The boys will be persuaded that they are fighting for freedom when all the time they will be suffering in support of a Muslim crusade for the establishment of sharia law throughout the Levant.

 

It's all there for anyone to read if they take their fingers out of their ears and their heads out of the sand and pay attention to something of substance other than the latest video binge.  Our leaders are lying to us like the snakes they are and we are following them to destruction.

 

Why is God allowing this to happen to us?  Because decades ago, America decided to put its trust in military arms instead of the Almighty.  Now our sins are catching up with us and we are paying the price for it in blood and treasure.

 

So go ahead and cheer for the old home team as I'm sure so many will do.   Only know that it will end in disaster and America will gain no profit from any of it.  We've been suckered into too many games of monkey-in-the-middle and we're being played again.  Funny thing is that we never win that game.  Any kid can tell you that.  Most adults have forgotten.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*)  GCC is an acronym for Gulf Cooperation Council.  It's member nations include Bahrain, Kuwait, the UAE, Oman, Qatar, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. 

 

 

I disagree with you. If there is any 'just war' this is it.

America have been involved in long conflicts that have just wasted lives because of Political Correctness and stupid no-engagement policies. If the Generals were left to fight the war the way it should be done then ISIS wouldn't stand a chance.

The U.S. military should be the most powerful in the World but they have been de-moralised by 'Liberal' policies. When a U.S. soldier gets court-martialed because he desecrates a copy of the Q'uran then that is just plain stupid. America does not need to show the enemy any respect. If they had fought Hitler in the same way then Hitler would have won. But these Liberal do-gooders are more concerned about not offending different cultures than they are about the lives of U.S. troops. They are morally confused.

You can't compromise in war - you've either fight to win or you don't.

Any attempts to appease ISIS will not work. More lives will be lost in the long run if action is not taken now. When you ignore evil it only gets stronger. Look what happened with Neville Chamberlain and the Munich Agreement. That's one lesson in history that should not be forgotten.


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