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Science and Miracles


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#1
a-seeker

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This OP is from someone admittedly ignorant of science.  It is not intended to be controversial.  I am not raising the issue of whether miracles can happen; I believe they can.  I am more curious as to the behavior of nature when a miracle is occurring.  Perhaps a concrete example will help:

 

We are told that on two occasions Jesus multiplied bread.  I admit I have always had difficulty imaging such an event--after all, if I were looking at one of the baskets, what would I see?  Would the loaves be bubbling and expanding; would there suddenly appear a new loaf.  But I also admit that the inability of the imagination to reproduce an event does not make that event impossible.  What I am really interested in is the chemistry required for that to take place:

 

After all, we have something appearing that wasn't there before (new loaves).  Loaves are, I assume, made of atoms.  That means these atoms had to come from somewhere?  Where did they come from?  Was there an enormous shift of atoms as some from the ground move through a disciple and ultimately come into alignment with other atoms so that finally we have a new piece of bread?

 

And yes, I am aware that I probably just exposed my embarrassing deficiency in atoms.

 

clb

 

Oh, other miracles are forthcoming


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#2
Cletus

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This is an interesting train of thought. God can create something (atoms) from nothing. There are somethings that we cannot measure though, like say annointing or faith. And when I say faith I am not speaking on the measure of faith unto salvation or a belief one holds. There are 9 gifts of The Spirit and one of them is the gift of faith, and it works closely with the gift of miracles for example multiplying bread or turning water into wine or moving mountians and possibly healing(God has never healed anyone thru me so I am going on what others have said on healing) I have experienced the gift of faith and its not something words can explain really. I would say God can just make it or create it from nothing. Its really a work of The Holy Spirit so it is kinda difficult to get our heads wraped around or explain because its orgin is not physicaly measurable. I imagine how the world is going we will probably get to see some bread multiplying soon, but thats just a guess.

1 corithians 14:1
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#3
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    Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Ours is not to reason how, but praise God for the miracle.
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#4
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About 25 years ago there was a young girl just preteen as I remember.  She had been sick most of her life, constantly on antibiotics from infection after infection.   Finally the doctors sent her to our Children's Hospital here in Oklahoma City and after a series of tests and ex-rays it was discovered that she had a third kidney that was between the other two and toward her back......   the kidney was upside down and had no connection to her bladder.

The girl basically had had a kidney infection her whole life.

 

They couldn't do any operation at that time for it was too dangerous with an active infection so they put her on a very strong antibiotic and scheduled the operation for a couple of weeks later.

She as expected got better being on the antibiotic.     As the week went by, they took her to the front of the church and anointed her with oil and the entire congregation came and laid hands on her and prayed....   one after the other until it was complete.

 

The surgeons were very concerned about removing the kidney for on one had ever had to do so and they were concerned about damaging different arteries and veins along with nerves that might also be different so they requested a high definition CT scan to see what all was there and what they should avoid.

 

Long story short when the CT was finished, it did not show the other kidney, and it appears that the girl was feeling so good because she was actually healed of the problem...       It was interesting to me that the pastors wife was present when the doctors showed the parents the  CT scans and explained that there was no need for the surgery.

She told me that the Radiologist was making guesses as to why the ex-rays showed one thing and the CT scan showed another and as the doctor and he walked out of the room she heard the doctor say something to the effect.......  Hey I know your new here.   If this is your first miracle to experience, you need to prepare yourself for you will see many here.

 

They said that the doctor just sort of took it all in stride like it was no big deal....

 

i kept track of the girl for about five years and she didn't have any setbacks that I'm aware of.


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#5
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This is an interesting train of thought. God can create something (atoms) from nothing. There are somethings that we cannot measure though, like say annointing or faith. And when I say faith I am not speaking on the measure of faith unto salvation or a belief one holds. There are 9 gifts of The Spirit and one of them is the gift of faith, and it works closely with the gift of miracles for example multiplying bread or turning water into wine or moving mountians and possibly healing(God has never healed anyone thru me so I am going on what others have said on healing) I have experienced the gift of faith and its not something words can explain really. I would say God can just make it or create it from nothing. Its really a work of The Holy Spirit so it is kinda difficult to get our heads wraped around or explain because its orgin is not physicaly measurable. I imagine how the world is going we will probably get to see some bread multiplying soon, but thats just a guess.

1 corithians 14:1

 

I like the first point you make (not that I dislike the rest) about God creating something from nothing.  For instance, many people have trouble with or outright reject the virgin birth; yet they have little difficulty accepting Creation ex-nihilo. They also (and I as well) wonder what genes Jesus had if he had only one biological parent.  But is it impossible that a new act of creation ex-nihilo were occurring, inserting itself into this one...?

 

clb


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#6
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I was wondering if there were any science fanatics who might shed light on the molecular processes that such a miracle as multiplying bread would have to involve.

 

Another miracle, in John we see Jesus pass through walls.  I am told this is not physically impossible; if the atoms of our bodies were so aligned that they met no resistance in the opposing atoms of the walls (like ships passing in the night).

 

Could  a similar maneuver be made to conceive Jesus' walking on water, though in the opposite way?

 

clb


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#7
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I was wondering if there were any science fanatics who might shed light on the molecular processes that such a miracle as multiplying bread would have to involve.

 

Another miracle, in John we see Jesus pass through walls.  I am told this is not physically impossible; if the atoms of our bodies were so aligned that they met no resistance in the opposing atoms of the walls (like ships passing in the night).

 

Could  a similar maneuver be made to conceive Jesus' walking on water, though in the opposite way?

 

clb

If you study "m" string physics it becomes possible to transition between dimensions and move through anything solid on earth.   The strings are not vibrating at the same frequency and they are not really part of our forth dimension at times.

 

it's my understanding that the spirit world we hear so much about are dimensions above the fifth and the angels can come and go at will.    God exists at the tenth or eleventh and that realm is just crazy for us to try and comprehend.


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#8
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Ours is not to reason how, but praise God for the miracle.

ugggg...yes, by all means we should just stay ignorant.  do you believe that is what God wants?


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#9
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    Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Ours is not to reason how, but praise God for the miracle.

ugggg...yes, by all means we should just stay ignorant.  do you believe that is what God wants?
There are just some things that are out our domain and how God does thing is one of them, let God be God.
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#10
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Hello ConnorLiamBrown,

 

Lets look at other miracles too.

 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ( Genesis 1:1)

 

 

Resurrection of Christ.

 

Jesus Christ raised from dead.

 

40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.      (Acts 10)

 

 

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. (1 Thessalonians 4)

 

Another miracle to be performed.

 

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.   (1 Thessalonians 4)

 

:)  Greetings !


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#11
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This is one of those "how big is your God?" kind of questions. In the first verse of Genesis God created (bara, cause to exist) about 10^80 atoms. There are jewish commentaries that describe Him as speaking them into existence, presciently describing John 1:3- ...and without (the Word) was not any thing made that was made.

 

If you can get your head around that, the rest is trivial.

       If your God is smaller than that, may I suggest an upgrade?


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#12
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Blessings clb...

    Good to hear from you again,hope you are well & God Bless you..................don't know how the atoms all came together to make a loaf of bread appear & I don't know how they came together to make a planet,such as the earth when God created it out of nothing or the whole universe for that matter...................but I do now that I had stage 4 incurable cancer with a malignant tumor the size of an orange that they tried to shrink for months & months with chemo/radiation & nothing was happening,not bigger,not smaller & then one day it was simply ,miraculously gone?!! The doctors thought for sure there must be something wrong with the pet scan....but there was not...it had vanished,where did those atoms go?I say,,,,,,who cares,thank you Jesus!

                                                                                                                                     With love-in Christ,Kwik


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#13
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Hello ConnorLiamBrown,

 

Lets look at other miracles too.

 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ( Genesis 1:1)

 

 

Resurrection of Christ.

 

Jesus Christ raised from dead.

 

40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.      (Acts 10)

 

 

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. (1 Thessalonians 4)

 

Another miracle to be performed.

 

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.   (1 Thessalonians 4)

 

:)  Greetings !

 

Yes, these are all miracles that would involve natural processes....although the last one may be a metaphor derived from Roman culture.

 

clb


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#14
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Blessings clb...

    Good to hear from you again,hope you are well & God Bless you..................don't know how the atoms all came together to make a loaf of bread appear & I don't know how they came together to make a planet,such as the earth when God created it out of nothing or the whole universe for that matter...................but I do now that I had stage 4 incurable cancer with a malignant tumor the size of an orange that they tried to shrink for months & months with chemo/radiation & nothing was happening,not bigger,not smaller & then one day it was simply ,miraculously gone?!! The doctors thought for sure there must be something wrong with the pet scan....but there was not...it had vanished,where did those atoms go?I say,,,,,,who cares,thank you Jesus!

                                                                                                                                     With love-in Christ,Kwik

Love stories like that; even more when they are from  people like you.

 

clb


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#15
a-seeker

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This is one of those "how big is your God?" kind of questions. In the first verse of Genesis God created (bara, cause to exist) about 10^80 atoms. There are jewish commentaries that describe Him as speaking them into existence, presciently describing John 1:3- ...and without (the Word) was not any thing made that was made.

 

If you can get your head around that, the rest is trivial.

       If your God is smaller than that, may I suggest an upgrade?

 

Not quite.

 

How big is your God is a question for skeptics.  I am not skeptical about the possibility of multiplying bread; I am simply interested in the natural processes that such a miracle must have entailed.  Either the extra bread really was bread; or it wasn't.  The gospels suggest it really was bread--so then, once we didn't have bread, and then we did--real bread, made up of all the molecules of ordinary bread.  I am simply curious how that process occurred.

 

clb


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#16
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I am not skeptical about the possibility of multiplying bread;

 

I am simply interested in the natural processes that such a miracle must have entailed.

 

~

 

And Dear One, Therein Do You Error

 

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

For Either Jesus Is The LORD

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

 

Or He Isn't

 

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 2 Peter 2:12-13

 

You See

 

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2 Peter 2:14

 

~

 

Believe

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

 

Love, Joe


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#17
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We are finite and God is infinite, I think that your wanting to know what transpire at the molecular level doesn't edify or benefit us at all.

He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. Psalms 103:7

God's ways are higher than under a microscope. Molecule's are the creature, get to know God's heart and let how his miracles are preformed at one of the smallest building block of creation be God's business.
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#18
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This is one of those "how big is your God?" kind of questions. In the first verse of Genesis God created (bara, cause to exist) about 10^80 atoms. There are jewish commentaries that describe Him as speaking them into existence, presciently describing John 1:3- ...and without (the Word) was not any thing made that was made.

 

If you can get your head around that, the rest is trivial.

       If your God is smaller than that, may I suggest an upgrade?

 

Not quite.

 

How big is your God is a question for skeptics.  I am not skeptical about the possibility of multiplying bread; I am simply interested in the natural processes that such a miracle must have entailed.  Either the extra bread really was bread; or it wasn't.  The gospels suggest it really was bread--so then, once we didn't have bread, and then we did--real bread, made up of all the molecules of ordinary bread.  I am simply curious how that process occurred.

 

clb

 

 I am simply interested in the natural processes that such a miracle must have entailed.

 

Why does God have to do things by natural process? People have given you examples of miracles, quoted scripture of the creation of all, and yet you still don't grasp who God is, and what he is capable of (which is anything). 

 

It's called faith, the very foundation of our Christian belief.

 

Do you believe the miracles happened as the Word states? Water to wine, bread in abundance, manna, raising from the dead, the earth swallowing tribes, the parting of the seas, the bringing of rain,  the defeat of thousands by hundreds, pillars of fire, virgin birth, alters cracked in two, axe heads floating, etc? Do you believe the miracles occurred?

 

As simple yes or no would suffice. (I don't need you to explain them to me, to rationalize them to me Connor, I just need a simple answer).

 

Yes or No?


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#19
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    Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Connor, the Tabernacle in the wilderness had some "furniture" of priestly service. When they moved the Tabernacle, as directed by God, the Levites would cover the furniture with varied coverings such as linen, scarlet, and Badgers skin's (I may be leaving something out). God gave the reason, so that the people wouldn't gaze upon the Holy objects; God didn't wish to make the things of worship to him and make them objects of amusement and pointing the finger in awe and for public display.

Connor, I think that you want to gaze upon the glory and power of God Almighty, in those things that he hides from view. Seek his face and not his ways.

Love you in The Lord.
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#20
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We are finite and God is infinite, I think that your wanting to know what transpire at the molecular level doesn't edify or benefit us at all.

He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. Psalms 103:7

God's ways are higher than under a microscope. Molecule's are the creature, get to know God's heart and let how his miracles are preformed at one of the smallest building block of creation be God's business.

 

I think I have earned the label of "skeptic" from other posts, which is rather unfair.  I made it clear in the OP that I was not questioning the possibilities of miracles, I was simply curious about what such involve, and so I made a request to those with more science under their belts than I.  

 

As far as edification, 2 things.  I saw an OP the other day that was titled "Would you parachute out of a plane?"  I glanced through the responses and don't believe I saw a single quote from the Bible, or the name of God mentioned, nor of Jesus.  This is not to mock that thread--the OP was simply curious about something, so am I. Secondly, I feel "edified" to think about God's operations on the universe; you may not, but other people might.

 

clb

 

Oh, I believe Jesus is Lord and saved me from my sins--I keep forgetting to end with that as I am still labeled "Seeker".


Edited by ConnorLiamBrown, 29 August 2014 - 01:20 PM.

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