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Matthew 11:11

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How is the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven greater than John the Baptist?  My notes at the bottom of my bible say because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  But in Luke it says John the Baptist will be filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mothers womb.

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v13 points to the answer, or as Luke phrases it, "the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist".

Under the OT structure, the Spirit was active, but His presence was conditional and temporary. David could say "take not thy Holy Spirit from me" but since Christ that isn't something we can validly say. The Spirit "indwelling" (making His home within you) and never leaving is a concept utterly foreign to OT minds.

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v13 points to the answer, or as Luke phrases it, "the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist".

Under the OT structure, the Spirit was active, but His presence was conditional and temporary. David could say "take not thy Holy Spirit from me" but since Christ that isn't something we can validly say. The Spirit "indwelling" (making His home within you) and never leaving is a concept utterly foreign to OT minds.

Nailed it - Spot on!
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v13 points to the answer, or as Luke phrases it, "the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist".

Under the OT structure, the Spirit was active, but His presence was conditional and temporary. David could say "take not thy Holy Spirit from me" but since Christ that isn't something we can validly say. The Spirit "indwelling" (making His home within you) and never leaving is a concept utterly foreign to OT minds.

Where it says in the new one cannot lose the Holy Spirit ? thanks 

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John 14:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"Dwelling" is a heavily loaded word in scripture. From Abraham who was in sin as he dwelt in Haran and later in faith he dwelt in tents, to Paul describing our citizenship as being in heaven, to Revelation that describes "those who dwell on the earth"; each case isn't describing one's physical address as much as it describes a mindset or allegiance or belief. Just as we are not to be citizens of this world, we are to tabernacle (tent, camp) here, while recognizing our citizenship in heaven as our permanent dwelling, so also the HS promises to remain (dwell) in you. Understanding the significance and permanence of "dwelling" is one of the things that makes the middle of Rom 8 so powerful:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

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John 14:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"Dwelling" is a heavily loaded word in scripture. From Abraham who was in sin as he dwelt in Haran and later in faith he dwelt in tents, to Paul describing our citizenship as being in heaven, to Revelation that describes "those who dwell on the earth"; each case isn't describing one's physical address as much as it describes a mindset or allegiance or belief. Just as we are not to be citizens of this world, we are to tabernacle (tent, camp) here, while recognizing our citizenship in heaven as our permanent dwelling, so also the HS promises to remain (dwell) in you. Understanding the significance and permanence of "dwelling" is one of the things that makes the middle of Rom 8 so powerful:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

 

John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

 

Matthew 12:43-45King James Version (KJV)
 
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
 
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
 
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
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John 14:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"Dwelling" is a heavily loaded word in scripture. From Abraham who was in sin as he dwelt in Haran and later in faith he dwelt in tents, to Paul describing our citizenship as being in heaven, to Revelation that describes "those who dwell on the earth"; each case isn't describing one's physical address as much as it describes a mindset or allegiance or belief. Just as we are not to be citizens of this world, we are to tabernacle (tent, camp) here, while recognizing our citizenship in heaven as our permanent dwelling, so also the HS promises to remain (dwell) in you. Understanding the significance and permanence of "dwelling" is one of the things that makes the middle of Rom 8 so powerful:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

 

Are you saying once saved always saved  ? thanks 

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John 14:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"Dwelling" is a heavily loaded word in scripture. From Abraham who was in sin as he dwelt in Haran and later in faith he dwelt in tents, to Paul describing our citizenship as being in heaven, to Revelation that describes "those who dwell on the earth"; each case isn't describing one's physical address as much as it describes a mindset or allegiance or belief. Just as we are not to be citizens of this world, we are to tabernacle (tent, camp) here, while recognizing our citizenship in heaven as our permanent dwelling, so also the HS promises to remain (dwell) in you. Understanding the significance and permanence of "dwelling" is one of the things that makes the middle of Rom 8 so powerful:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

 

John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

 

Matthew 12:43-45King James Version (KJV)
 
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
 
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
 
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
 
Are you saying once saved always saved  ? thanks 

 

Are you saying those verses have anything to do with the HS or salvation???

--Who said "I am the light"? (Hint: He also said, mirroring your John 12 verse: "...It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.")

--Is the unclean spirit the same as the Holy Spirit????

Do you have any point at all???

 

OSAS is a loaded topic that doesn't need to be decided for the OP's question. A safe answer is simply "we are absolutely secure as long as we abide in Christ".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What does this verse mean ?And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.Eph 4:30

What was the lesson we can learn from samson ?


What does it mean that some have fall away ?

Did they have the Holy Spirit ?

When they fell away do they still have the HS or unclean spirit ? thanks


When one has the Holy Spirit they can lose it if the do evil

once saved always saved is a lie


The foolish virgins had the Holy Spirit at one point in time then lose it



*** justfaith, I merged a four of your posts and removed the same series of quotes. Think your reply through before posting and don't keep quoting long posts that have many quotes inside them. ***

Edited by OneLight
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v13 points to the answer, or as Luke phrases it, "the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist".

Under the OT structure, the Spirit was active, but His presence was conditional and temporary. David could say "take not thy Holy Spirit from me" but since Christ that isn't something we can validly say. The Spirit "indwelling" (making His home within you) and never leaving is a concept utterly foreign to OT minds.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

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Falling away from correct doctrine may mean that you shun the Holy Spirit, but from Jesus' own mouth comes the promise that the Holy Spirit will never leave you. If you want to alter the meaning of that clear statement, do your best.

The virgins are not the bride.

Read the context of the passages you quote to see what is being discussed.

 

Dumping a bunch of nonsense-filled screen inches on these forums drastically lowers the value of these forums.

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Falling away from correct doctrine may mean that you shun the Holy Spirit, but from Jesus' own mouth comes the promise that the Holy Spirit will never leave you. If you want to alter the meaning of that clear statement, do your best.

The virgins are not the bride.

Read the context of the passages you quote to see what is being discussed.

 

Dumping a bunch of nonsense-filled screen inches on these forums drastically lowers the value of these forums.

Revelation 2 King James Version (KJV)
 
2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
 
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
 
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
 
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
 
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 
Revelation 3:16 
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
 
 
Seems that Jesus Himself will remove the Holy Spirit 
 
What sayesth thou ?
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The "candlestick" is not the Holy Spirit, see chapter 1.

 

The Laodicean church already lacks white raiment (Christ's imputed righteousness). Jesus is already outside the door of the Laodicean church.

[Rev 3:20 KJV] "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

 

 

And here's the goad you're kicking against, just to be more clear:

[Jhn 14:16,17 KJV] "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
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How is the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven greater than John the Baptist? 

Faith.....

 

From the beginning of creation to the renewal of creation God aways ask the same... do you believe me? Seeing and believing is how much greater than believing without seeing?

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What make the 'New Covenant', or the 'Church age, Christian greater than John the Baptist is Christ in them, the mystery that the Prophets and Angels desired to look into. In the age in which we are now in we contain "The Treasure" in earthen vessels (clay jars).

It's glorious to live in the age.

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How is the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven greater than John the Baptist?

Faith.....

 

From the beginning of creation to the renewal of creation God aways ask the same... do you believe me? Seeing and believing is how much greater than believing without seeing?

Matthew 11:11 again:

(KJV) 11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I don't think faith is it. The first half of Mat 11:11 says John the Baptist was no less than the OT heroes, who were examples of salvation by faith (see Heb 11 for a list).

And, Jesus says it's better to believe without seeing:

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

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Christ in us! In John the Baptist age, the age of law there was no Christ in us.

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`Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist;......`

 

Jesus is talking to the people of Israel about John the Baptist being greater than all those Old Testament prophets etc who had gone before.  Jesus was speaking about these people & their great acts done on earth, (born of women).

 

`yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.`  (Matt. 11: 11)

 

Here Jesus is talking about the time when the rule of the God of Heaven would come through Israel to the other nations of the world. Not just in the Millennium but looking forward to the New Earth. The people who will inherit being there will be `greater,` than all those who did those mighty acts on the old earth. `Greater` in the sense that they will have `eternal life,` having access to the `Tree of Life,` Christ Himself.

 

These people are NOT the Body of Christ which is destined for the very throne of Christ in the above realms beyond this Universe.

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Do you see a (meaningful) distinction between kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven?

They are both used interchangeably for "the saved", both OT saved (Mat 8:11, but with "shall be" making it yet future when it was spoken) and more generally referring to (future) NT saved. The natural reading of Mat 11:11 puts a contrast between OT and NT saints though, so it should be placed in company with the dozens of other verses that use kingdom of heaven/God as a reference to the Church or body of Christ. To give this one verse a special meaning in contrast to well established usage doesn't make sense. Is the millennium in view in any other kingdom of heaven reference? I looked at the 80+ gospel usages, and none appeared millennial to me...

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Hi Persuaded,

 

There is a meaningful distinction I believe in scripture between the `kingdom of heaven,` & the kingdom of God.` Now I do speak about this in the Soap-box area where I am having a debate with inchrist. Look down toward the end of our debate so far & you will see more details.

 

But briefly - God told Israel that they would be the rulers of the nations & when God had dealt with the final Gentile Rulers then He (the God of heaven) would set up a kingdom that would never be destroyed. (Dan. 2: 44) There are many scriptures given to Israel in the Old Testament that describes how this comes about, what it looks like, & what their part would be like. Thus they were waiting for the promised deliverer, their Messiah to come so that that rule could come on earth. Jesus continually reminded the people of Israel the promises of God that the rule from heaven would come to them. And that they were the `treasure` that God said, (Ex. 19: 5 - own possession - treasure & Matt. 13: 44) etc.

 

The `kingdom of God,` is a greater term & includes all the realms in God`s great kingdom, rule. Jesus is not only setting up rulership on earth through Israel, but in other realms as well, putting down all rebellion that has/is there.

 

A great topic, & as I said check out the debate.

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Is the God of heaven somehow different than God?

 

More importantly, in every gospel passage that uses Kingdom of heaven versus kingdom of God there is no meaningful distinction- the terms are used interchangeably. Gospel writers even use both terms in the same parable (Mat 19:23,24), or different writers use different terms when recounting the same passage (compare Matthew versus Luke with the beatitudes, the verse in question here- Mat 11:11 vs. Luke 7:28, and so on)

 

I believe you are creating a distinction that doesn't exist, and using that to read a different meaning into Mat 11:11 than exists in the text.

 

"The kingdom" certainly applies to the millennium, but it also applies to our present citizenship. We, today, are citizens of heaven:

 

[Phl 3:20 NKJV] For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

I'm probably not as interested as I should be in the semantics of whether Christ rules from David's throne over Israel, through Israel, or with Israel; nor whether the church is ruling with Christ on earth or heaven or old earth or new earth; or new, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven. Just that Christ rules, from David's throne, Israel still has a part in God's plan, and I am a citizen of heaven today and forever.

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What make the 'New Covenant', or the 'Church age, Christian greater than John the Baptist is Christ in them, the mystery that the Prophets and Angels desired to look into. In the age in which we are now in we contain "The Treasure" in earthen vessels (clay jars).

It's glorious to live in the age.

 

I like this answer best, but since Jesus 'always was', wouldn't that still be Christ in John the prophet?  So then it is also saying, we are greater than Moses, than Elijah, etc.  That does not seem right to me.  If some of these people are likely going to be sitting on one of the other 12 thrones (apostles on 12, and who knows on other 12), then that cannot be possible. No one was more humble than Moses, God took Elijah and Enoch away up, my goodness, weren't THESE people greater?  (regarding Moses: 'who ever humbles himself like a child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.' Matthew 18:4)

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Hi Persuaded,

 

To answer your questions. The God of heaven is God. However the term `the kingdom of heaven,` is specifically used in scripture to indicate to Israel their inheritance. Daniel prophesied it & the Lord confirmed it in Matthew`s gospel. This gospel presents Christ as their king. He is the one who would bring the rule of the God of heaven through Israel to the nations.

 

Now in the other gospels we do not read of that term. Why? Because Christ is being presented to the Romans in Mark & to the Greeks in Luke. These groups were never promised that they would be the rulers over the nations. Thus the term the `kingdom of God,` is used when explaining their part in God`s final great kingdom.

 

The kingdom of God is over all & the rule of heaven through Israel is a sub part of that.

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I like this answer best, but since Jesus 'always was', wouldn't that still be Christ in John the prophet?  So then it is also saying, we are greater than Moses, than Elijah, etc.  That does not seem right to me.  If some of these people are likely going to be sitting on one of the other 12 thrones (apostles on 12, and who knows on other 12), then that cannot be possible. No one was more humble than Moses, God took Elijah and Enoch away up, my goodness, weren't THESE people greater?  (regarding Moses: 'who ever humbles himself like a child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.' Matthew 18:4)

Thank you, Pamela, but the great OT saints had the Spirit of Christ ON them, we have Christ in us. I am greater that Moses for the Holy Spirit endwelling had not come to him in his day. I know that it sounds asinine, but it is so. No, I haven't parted the Mississippi, but I am the temple of the Holy Spirit, Moses was not the temple of the Holy Spirit.
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Hi Persuaded,

 

To answer your questions. The God of heaven is God. However the term `the kingdom of heaven,` is specifically used in scripture to indicate to Israel their inheritance. Daniel prophesied it & the Lord confirmed it in Matthew`s gospel. 

------

The kingdom of God is over all & the rule of heaven through Israel is a sub part of that.

Here's Dan 2:44,45 which I think is the passage you are referring to:

[Dan 2:44,45 NKJV] And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.
 
Where Daniel is interpreting this part of the dream:
[Dan 2:34,35 NKJV] You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
 
So the "God of heaven" is the stone cut without hands, which is Jesus Christ. Where is the clue that the "God of heaven"title relates to Israel's future ruling over nations? Indeed, this passage falls in the aramaic-language, gentile-centric portion of the book of Daniel. The title appears to simply be used to distinguish between Daniel's God and Neb's gods. In chapter 2 Daniel also uses "the Most High", "God of my fathers", "the great God". A bunch of titles of God, simply meant to distinguish Him from the gods Neb would have been familiar with.

 

I fully agree that Israel has a future prophetic role and destiny to fulfill her promises and calling, but it sounds like you are reading into the text in this case. We should squeeze the text for every last nugget, but in doing so it's easy to get into left field as we look through the lenses of our own presumptions. I certainly can't claim to be free of that problem!

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