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Melchizedek

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#1
Samonee

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Was reading in Hebrews 7.
Who was Melchizedek?
Was he Jesus or a separate individual?

7 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,
2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
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#2
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Personally, I believe it was Jesus...     Same entity that came by on his way to Sodom and Gomorrah.

I could not prove it but by some multi layered metaphysics that's more than I care to look up and type out.


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I also think it was Jesus.

 

He was a priest then, now he is a perfect high priest.- Heb.4-5


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#4
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I also think it was Jesus.

 

He was a priest then, now he is a perfect high priest.- Heb.4-5

It doesn't seem right to just call him a priest though......   that doesn't set well with my soul.


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#5
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The ancient Rabbinical teaching, I hear say, has him as Shem.

FOUND IT:

The Rabbis identify Shem with Melchizedek, King of Salem, who is termed "a priest of the Most High," and who came to meet Abraham after the latter had defeated the four kings led by Chedorlaomer (Gen. xiv. 18-20). According to this account, Shem, as a priest, came to Jerusalem (with which Salem is identified by the Rabbis), of which city he became king, it being the proper place for the establishment of the cult of Yhwh. He went to meet Abraham to show him that he was not angry with him for having killed the Elamites, his descendants (Midr. Agadah on Gen. l.c.). Shem, however, forfeited the priesthood by mentioning in his blessing Abraham's name before that of God, so that God took his office from him and gave it to Abraham (Ned. 32b; Pirḳe R. El. xxvii.). According to the Midrash Agadah (l.c.) Shem himself asked God togive the priesthood to Abraham, as he, in his prophetic capacity, knew that he (Shem) would have no children eligible for the sacerdotal office. Contrary to the Pirḳe R. El. and Gen. R. (xliii. 10), the Midrash Agadah explains that it was Shem who gave tithes to Abraham, showing that he recognized him as priest (see Gen. R. xliii. 7). The Rabbis point out that in certain cases Shem ranked as the equal of Abraham; so that the latter was afraid lest Shem might be angry at him for having slain the Elamites and might curse him (Gen. R. xliv. 8; Tan., Lek Leka, 19). In another instance God made a compromise between Shem and Abraham, namely, with regard to the name of the Holy City, the place of the Temple, which Abraham had called "Jireh" (Gen. xxii. 14; see Jehovah-jireh) and which Shem had called "Salem." God united both names; and thus arose the name "Jerusalem" (Gen. R. lvi. 16).
http://www.jewishenc...cles/13541-shem
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#6
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I think I would have trouble reconciling him having no father and no beginning.     Although he did live 35 years longer than Abraham.  I'm not sure how one could reconcile the no father thing unless there is something about the Hebrew that I don't understand.

 

Abraham was 58 years old when Noah died...   kind of hard not to know who his father was.


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#7
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OK, that's fine, as you will. I may be wrong, but until I know I am going with the old Rabbi's, may The Lord show me.
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#8
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Personally, I believe it was Jesus...     Same entity that came by on his way to Sodom and Gomorrah.

I could not prove it but by some multi layered metaphysics that's more than I care to look up and type out.

It say made like unto the Son of man not the Son of man ,Jesus fucntion as a High priest only came into effect after he died and rose again 


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Heb 7:1-3
7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he abides a priest perpetually.
NASB

 

Please understand my plight here.   I must reconcile all scripture to accept beliefs of things.    This verse says very plainly that Melchizedek had no father or mother or family tree.   No beginning of days or end of life.

 

When Abraham was 58 years old Noah died.    Noah was Shems father,  Shem was still alive when Abraham died, and lived 35 years longer than Abraham, but he did die.  He also has a family tree back to Adam himself.

 

I simply can not accept that Melchizedek could be Shem with that many parts of his description being so off.


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The ancient Rabbinical teaching, I hear say, has him as Shem.

FOUND IT:

The Rabbis identify Shem with Melchizedek, King of Salem, who is termed "a priest of the Most High," and who came to meet Abraham after the latter had defeated the four kings led by Chedorlaomer (Gen. xiv. 18-20). According to this account, Shem, as a priest, came to Jerusalem (with which Salem is identified by the Rabbis), of which city he became king, it being the proper place for the establishment of the cult of Yhwh. He went to meet Abraham to show him that he was not angry with him for having killed the Elamites, his descendants (Midr. Agadah on Gen. l.c.). Shem, however, forfeited the priesthood by mentioning in his blessing Abraham's name before that of God, so that God took his office from him and gave it to Abraham (Ned. 32b; Pirḳe R. El. xxvii.). According to the Midrash Agadah (l.c.) Shem himself asked God togive the priesthood to Abraham, as he, in his prophetic capacity, knew that he (Shem) would have no children eligible for the sacerdotal office. Contrary to the Pirḳe R. El. and Gen. R. (xliii. 10), the Midrash Agadah explains that it was Shem who gave tithes to Abraham, showing that he recognized him as priest (see Gen. R. xliii. 7). The Rabbis point out that in certain cases Shem ranked as the equal of Abraham; so that the latter was afraid lest Shem might be angry at him for having slain the Elamites and might curse him (Gen. R. xliv. 8; Tan., Lek Leka, 19). In another instance God made a compromise between Shem and Abraham, namely, with regard to the name of the Holy City, the place of the Temple, which Abraham had called "Jireh" (Gen. xxii. 14; see Jehovah-jireh) and which Shem had called "Salem." God united both names; and thus arose the name "Jerusalem" (Gen. R. lvi. 16).
http://www.jewishenc...cles/13541-shem

 

This is some Great Insight He giveth more grace, really appreciated it.   Excellent post, and information.

I think I would have trouble reconciling him having no father and no beginning.     Although he did live 35 years longer than Abraham.  I'm not sure how one could reconcile the no father thing unless there is something about the Hebrew that I don't understand.

 

Abraham was 58 years old when Noah died...   kind of hard not to know who his father was.

 

Other One, I think I read somewhere that you like to read extra Biblical Books that are quoted in the Bible and usually not considered Inspired.   If one reads the Book of Jasher, Joshua 10:13; and II Samuel 1:18; you will see that Adonizedek, King of Jerusalem, in other words Melchizedek is Shem, Jasher 16:11.  Just read the whole chapter of 16 and you will find out that, Melchizedek is Adonizedek who is called Shem.

This also tells us by reading Jasher 79:27 that Balaam two sons, are referred to in II Timothy 3:8 that is Jannes and Jambras. 


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#11
He giveth more grace

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I have owned the Book of Jasher for many decades, but I know that it is not the canon of scripture and therefore I use caution.

Jannes and Jambrees, were the Egyptian magicians (for the lack of a better word) that withstood Moses, I doubt that they were Balaam's son's
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The ancient Rabbinical teaching, I hear say, has him as Shem.

FOUND IT:

The Rabbis identify Shem with Melchizedek, King of Salem, who is termed "a priest of the Most High," and who came to meet Abraham after the latter had defeated the four kings led by Chedorlaomer (Gen. xiv. 18-20). According to this account, Shem, as a priest, came to Jerusalem (with which Salem is identified by the Rabbis), of which city he became king, it being the proper place for the establishment of the cult of Yhwh. He went to meet Abraham to show him that he was not angry with him for having killed the Elamites, his descendants (Midr. Agadah on Gen. l.c.). Shem, however, forfeited the priesthood by mentioning in his blessing Abraham's name before that of God, so that God took his office from him and gave it to Abraham (Ned. 32b; Pirḳe R. El. xxvii.). According to the Midrash Agadah (l.c.) Shem himself asked God togive the priesthood to Abraham, as he, in his prophetic capacity, knew that he (Shem) would have no children eligible for the sacerdotal office. Contrary to the Pirḳe R. El. and Gen. R. (xliii. 10), the Midrash Agadah explains that it was Shem who gave tithes to Abraham, showing that he recognized him as priest (see Gen. R. xliii. 7). The Rabbis point out that in certain cases Shem ranked as the equal of Abraham; so that the latter was afraid lest Shem might be angry at him for having slain the Elamites and might curse him (Gen. R. xliv. 8; Tan., Lek Leka, 19). In another instance God made a compromise between Shem and Abraham, namely, with regard to the name of the Holy City, the place of the Temple, which Abraham had called "Jireh" (Gen. xxii. 14; see Jehovah-jireh) and which Shem had called "Salem." God united both names; and thus arose the name "Jerusalem" (Gen. R. lvi. 16).
http://www.jewishenc...cles/13541-shem

 

This is some Great Insight He giveth more grace, really appreciated it.   Excellent post, and information.

I think I would have trouble reconciling him having no father and no beginning.     Although he did live 35 years longer than Abraham.  I'm not sure how one could reconcile the no father thing unless there is something about the Hebrew that I don't understand.

 

Abraham was 58 years old when Noah died...   kind of hard not to know who his father was.

 

Other One, I think I read somewhere that you like to read extra Biblical Books that are quoted in the Bible and usually not considered Inspired.   If one reads the Book of Jasher, Joshua 10:13; and II Samuel 1:18; you will see that Adonizedek, King of Jerusalem, in other words Melchizedek is Shem, Jasher 16:11.  Just read the whole chapter of 16 and you will find out that, Melchizedek is Adonizedek who is called Shem.

This also tells us by reading Jasher 79:27 that Balaam two sons, are referred to in II Timothy 3:8 that is Jannes and Jambras. 

while I do read and accept some of the extra Biblical books, and even parts of Jasher that align with scripture, but not things that directly conflict with the Bible scripture.

 

So are we to reject the Bible over the book of Jasher?   If you accept that Shem is Melchizedek, it changes the whole perspective of that priesthood.  It did have a father and a family tree and a birth and more important a death.

 

So, do we reject the writings in the New Testament and go with Jasher or change our thoughts to match the Bible.


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#13
He giveth more grace

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To me, I don't accept the notion that Christ was incarnated twice, you know that is just my thing.
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I thought if this Melchizedek was another person other than the Jesus, then why would God not

choose him and create a family from him for he was righteous man. He was a priest for somebody, what about them ?

 

When I read this story about Abraham it seem there was no one else was serving the true God until Abram was converted at that time.

 

Even Shem must have fallen.


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#15
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Hebrews 7:17King James Version (KJV)

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

In my simple reasoning, If Jesus was already a priest in the order of himself, then why did God make him a priest after the order of himself.

I am too simple to understand I guess, better go off and ponder.
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#16
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Was reading in Hebrews 7.
Who was Melchizedek?
Was he Jesus or a separate individual?
7 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,
2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

The text doesn't require that Melchizedek was Christ (but doesn't exclude the possibility, either). The last verse quoted above is saying he has no *recorded* father or mother or genealogy in the scripture, and the author of Hebrews is using that omission to reinforce the model of Melchizedek as a type of Christ.
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#17
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To me, I don't accept the notion that Christ was incarnated twice, you know that is just my thing.

I don't believe he was....    he was not human while king of Jerusalem..   How can a person with no beginning and no end and no father or mother or family tree be human.  When he came by to talk on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah, he was with two angels...  I would find that difficult to believe was Shem.


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#18
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    Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

To me, I don't accept the notion that Christ was incarnated twice, you know that is just my thing.

I don't believe he was.... he was not human while king of Jerusalem.. How can a person with no beginning and no end and no father or mother or family tree be human. When he came by to talk on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah, he was with two angels... I would find that difficult to believe was Shem.
Conversely, I find it difficult to believe that God made him to be a priest after the order of himself, that's rather redundant don't you think.. Oh well, I am going to leave it to the theologians.
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I have owned the Book of Jasher for many decades, but I know that it is not the canon of scripture and therefore I use caution.

Jannes and Jambrees, were the Egyptian magicians (for the lack of a better word) that withstood Moses, I doubt that they were Balaam's son's

 

 

 

 

The ancient Rabbinical teaching, I hear say, has him as Shem.

FOUND IT:

The Rabbis identify Shem with Melchizedek, King of Salem, who is termed "a priest of the Most High," and who came to meet Abraham after the latter had defeated the four kings led by Chedorlaomer (Gen. xiv. 18-20). According to this account, Shem, as a priest, came to Jerusalem (with which Salem is identified by the Rabbis), of which city he became king, it being the proper place for the establishment of the cult of Yhwh. He went to meet Abraham to show him that he was not angry with him for having killed the Elamites, his descendants (Midr. Agadah on Gen. l.c.). Shem, however, forfeited the priesthood by mentioning in his blessing Abraham's name before that of God, so that God took his office from him and gave it to Abraham (Ned. 32b; Pirḳe R. El. xxvii.). According to the Midrash Agadah (l.c.) Shem himself asked God togive the priesthood to Abraham, as he, in his prophetic capacity, knew that he (Shem) would have no children eligible for the sacerdotal office. Contrary to the Pirḳe R. El. and Gen. R. (xliii. 10), the Midrash Agadah explains that it was Shem who gave tithes to Abraham, showing that he recognized him as priest (see Gen. R. xliii. 7). The Rabbis point out that in certain cases Shem ranked as the equal of Abraham; so that the latter was afraid lest Shem might be angry at him for having slain the Elamites and might curse him (Gen. R. xliv. 8; Tan., Lek Leka, 19). In another instance God made a compromise between Shem and Abraham, namely, with regard to the name of the Holy City, the place of the Temple, which Abraham had called "Jireh" (Gen. xxii. 14; see Jehovah-jireh) and which Shem had called "Salem." God united both names; and thus arose the name "Jerusalem" (Gen. R. lvi. 16).
http://www.jewishenc...cles/13541-shem

 

This is some Great Insight He giveth more grace, really appreciated it.   Excellent post, and information.

I think I would have trouble reconciling him having no father and no beginning.     Although he did live 35 years longer than Abraham.  I'm not sure how one could reconcile the no father thing unless there is something about the Hebrew that I don't understand.

 

Abraham was 58 years old when Noah died...   kind of hard not to know who his father was.

 

Other One, I think I read somewhere that you like to read extra Biblical Books that are quoted in the Bible and usually not considered Inspired.   If one reads the Book of Jasher, Joshua 10:13; and II Samuel 1:18; you will see that Adonizedek, King of Jerusalem, in other words Melchizedek is Shem, Jasher 16:11.  Just read the whole chapter of 16 and you will find out that, Melchizedek is Adonizedek who is called Shem.

This also tells us by reading Jasher 79:27 that Balaam two sons, are referred to in II Timothy 3:8 that is Jannes and Jambras. 

while I do read and accept some of the extra Biblical books, and even parts of Jasher that align with scripture, but not things that directly conflict with the Bible scripture.

 

So are we to reject the Bible over the book of Jasher?   If you accept that Shem is Melchizedek, it changes the whole perspective of that priesthood.  It did have a father and a family tree and a birth and more important a death.

 

So, do we reject the writings in the New Testament and go with Jasher or change our thoughts to match the Bible.

 

 

While I agree that thee books are not completely inspired, I do think that they give some good reference points on some matters that we don't have complete information.  But when referring to Hebrews 7:3, I agree wholeheartedly with Persuaded conclusions.  I think the writer is referring to the fact that Melchisedec, has no record of father or mother, or record of beginning or his death.  I do understand your point that Noah would have died when Abraham was 58 but we must remember that man had multiplied greatly on the earth in the 12 generation (if my math is correct it was 12) between Noah and Abraham and by this time much of the older generations lives would have been forgotten by the younger generation.  Plus as you stated Shem outlived Abraham.

 

But I do see where you are coming from Other One, and believe me when I say this I mean it with all my heart, although we disagree on this, I have nothing but the upmost respect for your conviction of standing firm in how you read the Bible, and maybe when we see Jesus we can ask Him if He was Melchizedek or was it Shem?
 


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do you realize that Noah had been dead less than 20 years when Abraham took off for Canaan....   Abraham was 58 when Noah died.....    I fail to believe that people didn't know who Shem was and his father....    Did Shem destroy Sodom?   Who was the Lord then?

 

It just makes too many problems to see Shem in a priest roll of that nature.  Unless you want to disavow the New Testament.....    and I'm not willing to do that.   You may if you wish.


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