Forums

I respect your studies and I respect your decision to reject current majority explanations. You have seen my style. If you browse back you will see that I followed the wording, grammar and logical implications. I have been studying the Bible since summer 1982 and I find no reason to change that style. It is clear that I will reach a different conclusion to you. Prophecy is there to transfer information about events and the test is history (Deut.18:22). Daniel predicts the future for the following gentile Empires and is written in their language of the day - Aramaic. Daniel also predicts the future of "Daniel's People" and some events have no record in history. They are written in Hebrew and because the Book is sealed, they will remain a mystery until God reveals. I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas we have had, but am not prepared to deviate from the first line of grammar and the prohibition in 2nd Peter 1:20. There is much "Symbolism" in prophecy, but the fulfillment is always a coherent and literal fulfillment. I know that I have much to still learn, but Daniel, the way the majority of scholars since the Reformation, and especially the last 200 years, have explained it, is my choice (with small changes which every student has). I think men like G.H. Pember and Sir Robert Anderson, were faithful to what was written. If my God has clouded the issue and those who stuck to the wording and grammar are blinded, I bow to that as well. If the Bible says "Thou shalt not murder", I take it like that, precisely. I find no "symbolic meaning" and will not apply any allegory to so plain a statement. If the scriptures under study are obscure, I interpret using only the Bible and nature (2nd Pet.1.20, Rom.1:18-22). May we both arrive at that great and fateful day having seen what Jehovah wanted us to see. And may Jehovah bless your efforts.

What is the purpose of a BOW? What does it do or launch? [addressed below] Persia (Iran 1935-Muslim) and the Medes history relating to Israel is very interesting. Cyrus and Darius were very favorable to Israel, as was the last Shaw of Iran. In my biblical interpretation, I surmise Iran’s near future is bleak, but its national future is bright. Elam, one-sixth of modern-day SW Iran, will suffer a tremendous humanitarian crisis and flee for their lives. This area is where most of Iran’s nuclear facilities and storage are located (Bushehr area). If I were to gander a guess, the description sounds like nuclear fallout to me, and they will flee to every nation on earth. As we see for the first time, instead of Iran using their proxies to attack Israel, they directly sent missiles and drones themselves. If Israel is serious about “Never Again,” they will have to eventually deal with the head of the snake instead of the symptoms. Whether the Lord Himself sends an earthquake or the IDF attacks Elam, it will become desolate. Then, there is the Ezekiel 38-39 invasion, where Persia is a central player. Not only are 5/6 of Iran’s invading force going to be obliterated, but the Lord will also deal with their home country. I suspect these two events are going to crush Allah and Islam. According to all reputable reports I have seen, Iranian citizens are receiving visions and dreams, and many are turning to Christianity under the penalty of death. 35         Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, The chief of their might. 36         And upon Elam will I bring the four winds From the four quarters of heaven, And will scatter them toward all those winds; And there shall be no nation Whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come. 37         For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, And before them that seek their life: And I will bring evil upon them, Even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; And I will send the sword after them, Till I have consumed them: 38         And I will set my throne in Elam, And will destroy from thence the king and the princes, Saith the Lord. 39         But it shall come to pass xin the latter days, That I will bring again the captivity of Elam, Saith the Lord. “And I will set my throne in Elam.” (Persia-Iran) We know Jesus’s throne will be in Jerusalem, so what does this mean? I take it Iran will become followers of Christ, a Christian nation, casting off Allah, the false god. What do you think? In light of October 7, 2023, and the escalations, could we say Jerusalem is becoming a cup of trembling? I do not think this declared war will be protracted (cease-fire), to allow Israel’s enemies time to rearm, supply, and strategize.    With all these global public protests in support of the barbarians HAMAS, 95% of UN Resolutions against Israel, and so on, are we seeing the world rapidly turning against Israel? And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Genesis 12:3) The Lord is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He did not rescind this promise.  

Yes to all the above . . . that is what has kept me in the fellowship flock I've been in for 25 years!  (that and the Lord keeps affirming in me that He has me where He wants me) Baa Baa Baa Baa Baa we're lambs -- we're in His hands!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZKeBdYgD90    

Thanks for your response! Please consider the following comments I would like to make: 1) It seems clear that you are looking at these verses in a “historical / secular / political way. (If you disagree please let me know).    To be candid, I believe most commentators interpret Daniel in a historical manner, where the “kingdoms” and the actors within those kingdoms become or are the focus of Daniel. They become the story, rather than looking for the Messiah WITHIN AND THROUGH THESE KINGDOMS.  And this is why I came to reject “today’s accepted interpretations.” God is using these 4 and only 4 kingdoms to present His prophecies for His people and His first coming. They are symbols that allow us to place His prophecies at the right time in history and in relation to His people as they move through these 4 kingdoms.    Certainly, there are many studies that have compared the different characteristics of the 4 metals, whether by their relative strength, value, density, etc., and the different way each kingdom is ruled. But they are not the story.    God will tell His story as His people are returning from captivity in Babylon to Jerusalem DURING these coming 1100 years (606 BC to ~ 500 AD when the little horn comes to power). But MOST of Daniel is designed to cover / speak to the 70 weeks of years prophecy WITHIN these 1100 years. This prophecy begins in 457 BC to 33 / 34’AD- 3.5 years after the Cross .    The overall theme is quite clear- It is written about the Jews being taken captive, the length of their punishment and His plan to restore His people, His city, all of the Levitical ceremonies and practices, the Sabbatical cycles, their way of life as it was prior to Babylon WITH THE MOST IMPORTANT PURPOSE IN MAN’S history- the arrival of the Messiah and His ministry on earth DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE.  Daniel is not a history lesson or study. It does not have to (and does not) follow and stay in line with our history books. God will and has used / selected those historical actors, events and kingdoms AS HE CHOOSES to present His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind. Thus, He can include and exclude whatever has or will take place that is relevant to His plan.  2) And this brings me to the second critical error in determining “today’s accepted interpretations.” They have failed to look for the Messiah in Daniel. This is His story not a history lesson about the 4 kingdoms, etc.  So, these verses in 2:41-43 as well as those in the coming chapters of 7,8 9 and 11 MUST all speak to one theme, have one focus, be consistent in the prophecies without any conflict among them, stay within their boundaries and borders a established in chapter 2, and understand they are ALL ABOUT THE COMING MESSIAH AND HIS PLAN OF RESTORATION AND SALVATION.  Verses 2:41 -43 are some of the most difficult to interpret (they were for me) but only until 2:34 was found to represent His first coming as the Stone that broke apart, not the image, but only the iron and clay elements in the feet. So although you and EVERYONE agree that 2:34 and 2:35 are not the same  end time event, then 2:41 will not support 2;34 and it too is thrown into the future. But it can be interpreted and not treated as a “general” interpretation thrown in the future without any real meaning behind it. God is very  with His prophecies and has a purpose for each he  term, phrase and word in 2:41 and, of course, every verse. Verse 2:41 speaks directly to the results of the elements (iron and clay) AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN  INTO PIECES or SYMBOLICALLY SEPARATED FROM THE IRON KINGDOM OF ROME. And this ACTION that caused this is 2:34 -the Cross (the Stone striking the feet). So, if you would like to help me break down 2:41 with you that might be interesting: 1) .. you saw the feet and toes… Again, this is being discussed because it does NOT represent an end time event, but one that occurred AFTER THE CROSS symbolically separated the 2 elements in the feet.    2) … the feet were composed of “partly of “potters clay” and partly of clay…  Here is the composition of the FEET NOT THE KINGDOM. The 4th kingdom is Rome of iron. The clay element is WITHIN THIS 4th kingdom- it is symbolically held captive within Rome (Jews are captive within Rome— and again, the storyline is about their (Jews) restoration from Babylon. It is almost complete with ONLY the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah to be fulfilled at the first day of the 70th week)     a) who are the iron in the feet?     b) who are the clay within the feet?        c) where did the “pottery clay” come from?     d) did you notice that the “pottery clay” is now found / shown in a “superior” position to that of the iron?     e) in the “Dream Sequence” of verse 2:33 (where God established the 4 kingdoms AND its structure AND its borders and boundaries), He revealed the 4th kingdom was made of “legs of iron and feet “partly IRON AND PARTLY CLAY.” There was no mention of the type of clay in the “Dream Sequence” (image BEFORE THE STONE STRUCK THE FEET), and the order of the iron was in a superior position to that of the clay- the iron was dominant to that of the clay in this 4th kingdom (BEFORE THE STONE).   3) Here in 2:41, which is the first verse in the “Interpretation Sequence” verses (details of events that would take place WITHIN the “Dream Sequence” verse above, it now reveals the specific type of clay and a change in the position of the two different elements. Why? What has caused this and what is the significance of these changes? What is God revealing to us about this 4th kingdom? 4) …. The kingdom shall be divided… This is very interesting! Why is this 4th kingdom being “SYMBOLICALLY” divided? When did this occur? Why did God divide this kingdom? 5) … yet the strength of the  IRON  shall be in it, JUST AS YOU SAW THE IRON MIXED WITH CERAMIC CLAY…        Wow, there is a lot going on here! What does all of this mean?        a) Whst is meant by this “strength”?        b) Why is God telling us this “divided” kingdom will continue to have this “strength” within it?        c) Here God is telling us the “kingdom that you saw” (Nebuchadnezzar saw IN THE DREAM SEQUENCE BEFORE THE STONE STRUCK THE FEET), was composed of IRON MIXED WITH CERAMIC CLAY. Where and who is this “ceramic clay”?      d) What has changed in this 4th kingdom- gone from “ceramic clay” to “pottery clay” and why?    With all due respect, these verses have not been addressed or properly interpreted by any of the scholars, academics, or theologians that have produced THEIR ACCEPTED INTERPRETATIONS OF 2:41.    They have been “generally” treated as “must be end time events when the Messiah will return.” Please consider the above and you can easily understand just how difficult and complicated this verse is to unpack. And it can not be done UNLESS one treats 2:34 as the Stone (Messiah) breaks the iron and the clay (only) into pieces at His first coming. Look forward to your or anyone else’s thoughts and opinions. It is one thing to make a very general interpretation of these verses and throw them into the future, it is another thing to break them down in the time they occurred and their spiritual interpretation found within.     

I can't find any fault worth mentioning with many Eastern churches, though the same can be insufferably hidebound with regard to hierarchical traditions. As far as their theological doctrines are concerned I share much in common with prevailing Eastern conventions. This is not to say that I feel the need to join myself to a particular Eastern church. I don't.  The "standing up, sitting down" routine in evangelical churches is nothing compared to Eastern rites. No thanks.