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Calvin vs. Arminius

What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?   278 votes

  1. 1. What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?

    • 100% Calvinist - TULIP all the way!
      82
    • 60% Calvinist 40% Arminian - Parts of TULIP are too absolute.
      33
    • 50% Calvinist 50% Arminian - Both positions have merit.
      70
    • 60% Arminian 40% Calvinist - Parts of DAISY are too absolute.
      23
    • 100% Arminian - DAISY all the way!
      70

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For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due. :rofl:

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well stupid me, i viewed results without voting and now it won't let me vote!

personally, i find the calvanistic doctrine to be contrary to my view of a loving Father.

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Is there a "Neither" choice?

:t2:

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Well, I think you know where I stand. :noidea: Anything that declares that God is not 100% Sovereign and can fail at His plan is offensive and heresy in my book. I realize that others feel differently.

I really think that most people start from a wrong perspective. So many people think that human beings "deserve" something, or that they should get a "fair" deal. Once one realizes that all anyone deserves is hell, then the loving Almighty and the grace of His plan are revealed. Awesome!

My son has a girl that likes him and takes him to her youth group every week. (They are 13). Today, he made the comment to me that the family was very nice, "even if the mom is wrong about Bible things". I asked him what he meant and he said "Well, she says that all children/babies automatically go to Heaven because they know no sin". I said - "Did you say anything?" He said - "No, I wanted to tell her she should read her Bible and get the truth about it, but I didn't want to be rude". LOL! It warms my heart to know he is paying attention. (and wouldn't be rude too, lol)

This was an excellent overview of the differing points, GMan. Thanks.

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Well, I put 100% Calvinistic. The only part I would stand to adjust on is limited atonement. But even I have to admit that if all the other points of Tulip are true, then Christ could not have died for every sinner, knowing they wouldn't all come?

I would say it was sufficient for all, but only effective for some.

But I'm with Calvin, God first, then Man...

Good post, it will be interesting to see how the votes go, and if I'm the only 100% calvinist on worthy boards willing to post that fact :noidea:

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there is nothing about armenianism that puts man before God. but i have real problems with the idea that God picked and chose who he would allow to be redeemed before they were born. that isn't a loving God. God's desire is for ALL to know and serve Him, freely of their own accord. scripture says "whosoever shall believe in me", not "whosoever I've selected to believe in me".

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nothing about armenianism that puts man before God. but i have real problems with the idea that God picked and chose who he would allow to be redeemed before they were born.

Calvinism = God Chooses Man

Armenianism = Man Chooses God

There's a very evident part of armenias (I don't know how to spell that! :noidea: ) that puts man's choice above God's. That is if God wanted someone saved, he couldn't do it if that man didn't let him... So God is some how incapable of saving someone who doesnt' want to be...Man's will over God's I.E. man before god.

i have real problems with the idea that God picked and chose who he would allow to be redeemed before they were born. that isn't a loving God. God's desire is for ALL to know and serve Him, freely of their own accord

What do you say (not arguing just curious how you view it) about Romans 9, when it says v.11 "though they werenot yet born and had done nothing either good or bad- in order that God's purpose of election might continue noe because of works but because of his call v12 she was told 'the older will serve the younger' v13 "as it is written Jacob I loved but esau I hated."

and vs.16 "so then it depends not on human will or exertion but on God who has mercy"

:D Just looking to see what you see... thanks Lady C

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But even I have to admit that if all the other points of Tulip are true, then Christ could not have died for every sinner, knowing they wouldn't all come?

I would say it was sufficient for all, but only effective for some.

How right you are. To say that Christ did that incredible work on the cross, but it 'didn't work' for everyone (because some don't accept it) is terrible, not to mention unBiblical.

there is nothing about armenianism that puts man before God.

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

but i have real problems with the idea that God picked and chose who he would allow to be redeemed before they were born. that isn't a loving God.

By what criteria are we defining "loving"? By what/whose standards?

What do you say (not arguing just curious how you view it) about Romans 9, when it says v.11 "though they werenot yet born and had done nothing either good or bad- in order that God's purpose of election might continue noe because of works but because of his call v12 she was told 'the older will serve the younger' v13 "as it is written Jacob I loved but esau I hated."

and vs.16 "so then it depends not on human will or exertion but on God who has mercy"

Excellent, mcm. Scripture is clear, and one can never go wrong with Scripture! :noidea:

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armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

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armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men

I think all can agree that not ALL men are saved. That makes the plan a failure. God is not a failure and His plan is not less than perfect. God is 100% sovererign and perfect and we much reject anything that claims otherwise.

but unlovingly rejects all others,

Again, by what standards are we judging "unloving"? By what definition? Do we hold God accountable to human definitions and standards?

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

whoever believes in Him shall not perish - who here is saying that that is untrue? It is absolutely true. Whoever believes in Him will not perish. As for what it doesn't say - we could go 'round and 'round about what Scripture doesn't say - but what's the point? What it says is what is important. :noidea:

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of course not all men are saved. that doesn't make God's plan a failure at all. it means he gave us the ability to excercise free will. it is not God's desire that any should perish, but He gives us, ALL of us, every opportunity to 'choose this day who you will serve'. that does not make Him less than soveriegn. to the contrary, it is a shining example of His soveriegnty, since He is the one who GAVE us free will. He doesn't lie.

it is not holding God accountable to human standards at all. God is the very definition of love. to say that He would only pick and choose a few, while denying others the opportunity and thus giving them no opportunity to escape the condemnation of eternal torment and separation from Him is contrary to His own word.

again, whoever believes in Him, not whoever God allows to believe in Him. you're right, we could go around in circles on what God didn't say. i choose not to put words in His mouth. i prefer to think God means exactly what He says. no hidden agenda.

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I agree!

of course not all men are saved. that doesn't make God's plan a failure at all.

Armenian way of thinking says that God wishes that none would perish. Jesus came for ALL to be saved.

Simple deduction says that, since all are not saved, the plan failed. I see no way around that.

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again, whoever believes in Him, not whoever God allows to believe in Him.

There is no descrepancy there. Whoever believes in Him will be saved. Absolutely true.

The difference in doctrine is - how do they come to believe in Him?

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no hidden agenda.

That implies that there is a "hidden agenda" in the Calvinist doctrine. No such 'hidden agenda' exists. Man is in a fallen state. God has a plan for His people to be saved from that fallen state. His plan is perfect, and no one "falls through the cracks". No one thwarts God's perfect plan, or invalidates it, or frustrates Him by rejecting it. God can not be frustrated or defeated. The plan is perfect and accomplishes its aim. :noidea:

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but is His plan really only for a select few, as the calvanistic approach seems to indicate? if it is, then why doesn't God's word say so? and since it doesn't, isn't that a hidden agenda in and of itself, that only those God has chosen to know Him have an advantage?

we won't change each other's minds on this, so i'll step away from the debate. i just praise God that He chose you, and that in His mercy He allowed me the freedom to believe in Him. :il:

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:) All this ensued while I was bowling? I bowled well but now I'll throw my two sense, or cents, or uhh anyway

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

A calvinist would say that one cannot believe unless he is first given that ability by the Holy Spirit. We hang on our doctrine of Totaly Depravity and God's Total Sovereignty. You try to take those from a Calvinist/reformed and he will jump on it in a second.

Now, as far as the understanding of the verses that say "Christ died for all, world, all men," (naturally I do not want to quote them all) it is explained in this sense.

No longer is salvation, or choosing, only for the Jewish nation, it is now for the entire world, or all nations. NOt every individual but every people group... to simplify it Jews and Gentiles alike! So... Christ died for All men, not just jewish men, but All men, (that is again men as in people groups) and the same would go. Generally Context will help them in this debate.

Grrr... I'll get back to you on a good verse that shows this very point, and I would say that World, all, or all men... refers to this comparison (not just jews but all men, not just the Jewish nation, but All nations, or all the world!)

Also, we know it is God's Desire that all be saved, all are not saved, this fact brings trouble to both sides. The question that must be asked is if he really desired it why doesn't he make it happend? the answer is that he does things for his own purposes, for his own glory, we are not to question.

I digress, that is my position... hope it helps,

Man I can't believe I missed the whole debate :o

Oh, Ladyc you scare me :o (I read your posts in the kerry, bush, nader debate, yikes, you got some knowledge.) Thanks for being able to debate honestly and respectfully without getting all upset, I respect that... A lot :t:

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i scare you? LOL, i think you meant that in a good way :)

seriously though, God will not force His will upon any man, no matter how much He desires it. if calvanism is correct, then i have to wonder... even if it is not my place to question... what makes me more worthy than the next guy of being selected?

the way i see it, nothing. i don't think God thinks i'm any more worthy than the next either.

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Amen. The fact that you are saved, that you are one of God's chosen, does not mean that you were more worthy than anyone else, in fact, the Bible says contrary. Amen again. ALL are born doomed. Whether or not it 'makes sense' or seems 'fair' is moot. God is God. Man fell, thereby causing every single human to be born with a sin nature contrary to God's Holy nature. Scripture says so. The fact that it doesn't seem 'fair' stopped concering me ages ago. It's a fact I have to deal with.

The fact that God made a way for some of His creation to be redeemed is awesome Grace. Why not all? Why does God pass over some? I have no idea and don't dwell on it. I know that ALL also have the choice, and that no one is "sent" to hell because of The Almighty. The two seem like a contradiction, but since I know there are no contradictions in Scripture and that it speaks only truth about this, I have total faith and trust in God on this matter. He plainly says that He chose some and He plainly says that all have the opportunity and are without excuse.

but is His plan really only for a select few, as the calvanistic approach seems to indicate? if it is, then why doesn't God's word say so? and since it doesn't, isn't that a hidden agenda in and of itself, that only those God has chosen to know Him have an advantage?

Can't answer that - because I believe God's word does indeed say so and it is very clear to me. :)

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seriously though, God will not force His will upon any man, no matter how much He desires it.

I think I look at things a lot differently. The way I see it God is constantly forcing his will on us. If God be at all in control he must in some way force his will. I think of when he hardened Pharoh's heart (cf. rom 9) or so many times in the Bible, when the Jews were given victory, it was God's will being forced on both Israel and the surrounding camps.

constantly through Scripture we see God's hand working His will through man, without asking man first.

This is where my struggle is with the opposed calvinist is that it assumes God is not in control of the decisions of Man... i can't handle that. From a personal or a Biblical standpoint I just can't swallow that. To think that there is one area of creation that is not subject to the sovereign control of God, to me, is to take away the label of God completely!

:D pleas don't yell at me :D

J/K

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Greetings MCM,

This is where my struggle is with the opposed calvinist is that it assumes God is not in control of the decisions of Man... i can't handle that. From a personal or a Biblical standpoint I just can't swallow that. To think that there is one area of creation that is not subject to the sovereign control of God, to me, is to take away the label of God completely!

It is NOT that God controls us, but has FULL KNOWLEDGE of our every action from the beginning to the very end. Thus He is able to use ALL creation to bring about His perfect will.

Most certainly God continues through His Son, to intervene in the lives of men, even as He did with Adam in the Garden. He could have put the kabosh on the Serpent BEFORE Adam was tempted, but did not. Once we are given His commands, we then become responsible for obeying them. He doesn't MAKE us obey them, and that is where "choice" comes in or "freewill".

I too am very glad that God has everything under control and that I need not fear, doubt or worry, for whatever comes my way, He knew about ages ago and made appropriate preparations for it - way back then.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

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It is NOT that God controls us, but has FULL KNOWLEDGE of our every action from the beginning to the very end. Thus He is able to use ALL creation to bring about His perfect will.

This is a crippled view. I have tackled it in other boards and I will do so again here. The idea that God looks down through the corridor of Time to see who will choose him, and then he chooses those who chose him is a farce.

quoting R.C. Sproul "Loved By God" p. 95 "In this scenario the decisive factor in electionis performed by the sinners who correctly resond to God's offer to grace. The decision of God rests upon His foreknowledge of decisions of men. It is man's free will that determines his election or non-election.

This veiw of election suffers from several fatal flaws. Among them is that first the view flatly contradicts the very point Paul is making in Romans 9. What does he mean by writing "for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, thtat the purpose of God according to election might stand not of works but of Him who calls" ....

"Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (John 6:60-68) If we analyze this we see that 'no on' indicates a universal negative propposition. It means that none in a certain class have theh predicate attriputed to them.. What is being described in terms of a universal negative? Jesus says no one CAN. Jesus is speaking here of power or ability to do somethiing. Since He speaks of this particular ability in univiersal negative terms, He is describing a universal inability.

That should be more than enough, also I must quote two more passages..

1. "Do not murmur among yourselves, no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I wil raise him up at the last day" (john 6:43-44)

2. Romans 9:14-18 "What shall we say then? is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to MOses, "i will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the scripture says of Pharoah, "for this very purpose I have raised you up that I may show my power in you and that my name amy be delcared in all the earth. Therefore he has mercy on whom he wills and whom he wills he hardens

Answer Romans nine with your views of God seeking to see who will follow him and who will not, and it will show you that election occurs long before you ever made a decision! In fact it will show you that God creates for His glory alone. And it will show you that God can make from the same lump of clay a vessel made for wrath and a vessel made for mercy, and who is the clay to say to the potter,"why have you made me this way?"

If nothiing else will declare, and I believe much will, but if nothing else will declare the choosing of God's people, by God it is Romans 9. No talk of works, or decisions here, only talk of those whom God has chosen, and those whom he has not.

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2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Pet 1:20

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Sam 14:14

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Job 37:24

24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply

mcm

I would suggest that you do not put your salvation in the hands of interpretations of men. God has never told us to read anything but His Scriptures, and to meditate in Them (The Scriptures) day and night, and to pray always in The Spirit. If you will follow God's advice you will come out of your darkness.

Your satement about Gods foreknowledge is nothing but foolishness, not because I say so but because Peter, and Paul says it is so.

2 Pet 1:1-4

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

(KJV)

1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(KJV)

Rom 8:28-29

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

(KJV)

But then I guess if you don't have freewill to choose which you will believe I guess God has predestined you to believe in man rather than God. And then even sadder than that you lump your salvation into a ball of clay and turn it over to the hands of a potter.

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mcm42 wrote:

The way I see it God is constantly forcing his will on us.

This goes against everything that I have learned from the new testament.

God-man, thanks for the explanation, I had never heard the "DAISY vs. TULIP" before. I voted 100% DAISY, but like you, I'm not sure that this is quite the right medium for this discussion. But thank you very much for the informative thread! :blink:

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I would suggest that you do not put your salvation in the hands of interpretations of men. God has never told us to read anything but His Scriptures, and to meditate in Them (The Scriptures) day and night, and to pray always in The Spirit. If you will follow God's advice you will come out of your darkness.

WEll then again, as I have said before, I see no reason why you are reading worthy boards! Why are you here when you could be reading your Scripture? In fact if you believe that we are not to listen to men's interpretations, why then do you go on to give me your interpretation? You certainly cannot expect me to believe someone who tells me first not to believe him?

But then I guess if you don't have freewill to choose which you will believe I guess God has predestined you to believe in man rather than God. And then even sadder than that you lump your salvation into a ball of clay and turn it over to the hands of a potter.

Indeed I do. My ball of clay is much better off in the hands of the almighty Potter then they are to myself. Good point I might add. HOw does a ball of clay mold itself? Or Does it need a molder. In fact does the Molder first choose what the clay will be or does he ask the clay first? And if the clay disagreed would the Potter say "hmmm your right clay, and I the creator am wrong". This is silliness. Why would you denounce the Giving over of my salvation to God Almighty? Rather I suppose your salvation is better off in your hands? You knew better how to handle your life and so God sought it necessary to foreknow His creations which was Wiser than him?

How do you suppose my belief in a God who is in Total control of my decisions, is a belief in Man? It can not be! For I put no faith in men, but my entire salvation is given over to God, who chooses, and has mercy. And yet you will tell me that God waited for YOU to Choose Him, giving you the control, and not him. Which is more of a Belief in Man? The one who believes God Makes the ultimate decisions, or the one who believes Mand Makes the Decisions?

As for Scriptures, I am certainly not lacking...

Eph 1-

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"

Romans 9-

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, "

John 6-

"44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "

John 6-

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father"

John 10-

26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"

2 Timothy-

"9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

This is far more convincing to me than any of what you have Quoted.

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For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due. :P

I'm neither because both have stances against the doctrine of the Apostles and of the Fathers of the Church.

Why rely on the knowledge of 2 ppl from the XVIII century when the christian doctrine of the first 5 centuries is so absolutely clear?.

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