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Calvin vs. Arminius

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Poll: What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY? (338 member(s) have cast votes)

What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?

  1. 100% Calvinist - TULIP all the way! (81 votes [29.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.67%

  2. 60% Calvinist 40% Arminian - Parts of TULIP are too absolute. (31 votes [11.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.36%

  3. Voted 50% Calvinist 50% Arminian - Both positions have merit. (68 votes [24.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.91%

  4. 60% Arminian 40% Calvinist - Parts of DAISY are too absolute. (23 votes [8.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.42%

  5. Voted 100% Arminian - DAISY all the way! (70 votes [25.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.64%

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#1341
Patrick6099

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Oh boy, this is going to be good I'm sure. I don't have time right now to read 67 pages of conversation, but I will. Each of the five points (Tulip/Daisy) has been hotly debated for centuries by men far more intelligent than I.  I'm attending a 5 point Calvinist seminary and I am struggling with the theology.  I told one of my professors that I dare not fight his positions, but much study is ahead for me before I can reach conclusions.  Bible verses seemingly point in more than one direction.  Verses that seem to clearly support God's predetermination of man, and some that seem to support giving man some free will.  This "debate" has caused me problems because it alters how you look at God.  Some have told me that the doctrine of election gives them great comfort that God picked them out for salvation. But I would counter with, "how do you know that you were selected?".  What if there were people that had an interest in spiritual things (certainly true with all the interest in world wide religions), attended church, prayed, read their bible, but were not of the elect?  What it they believed they were saved?  We would say they were deluded, but then....might you also be?  Anyway, I'm no where near ready to take sides on the issue, but I did have a possibly very ignorant thought.   My Systematic Theology professor stated that there are five possibilities:

 

1. God could provide no opportunity for salvation

2. God could provide the opportunity for salvation for ALL

3. God could provide the opportunity for salvation for SOME

4. God could ensure the salvation for ALL

5. God could ensure the salvation for SOME  

 

Of course number one is what we deserve, but do not believe.

Number two and/or number three is the Arminian position, which I'm not sure yet

Number four is the Universalist position

Number five is the Calvinist position

 

What I have wondered is, could the Bible support number two/three and number five being equally correct?  I have this sense that we are almost boxing God in, requiring Him to fit into what it is that our minds can wrap around.  Could God be more multi-faceted than we could ever understand?

 

I'm only trying to remain as open minded as I possibly can while sorting things out in my mind and seeking answers in scripture.  Before I became a Christian, I had no concern for lost people, poor people, abused people.  Christ changed me into someone that cares about the lives of those around me and all over the world.  I personally desire everyone would come to Christ for salvation.  Where do I get that desire from if not from my Lord?  


Edited by Patrick6099, 15 December 2013 - 04:46 AM.


#1342
enoob57

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One of the areas that helps me in the thought processes of God's Saving Work is
the study of Harmartiology. When one's Theology brings the Sovereignty of God
into responsibility for sin they have gone to far as that is the unforgiveable
sin... Holiness is the absence of sin eternally and God alone 'IS' Holy!

We know satan desire is to rise above God in being but we also know that is not
possible because of Who God 'IS' and the created by God... God said it like this
James 3:11-12
11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening?
12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs?
Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.
NKJV

Love,Steven

#1343
rjp34652

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Man is not autonomous.  Man cannot live as he chooses and expect to somehow be escape the consequences of what he has done.  

 

Even God is restricted by His own law, His own personality and the consequences of His own actions.  That's the way heaven and earth are created and that's the way all of us must live, yet the core of the discussion of free will ALWAYS devolves about the human tendency toward debauchery.   How can we sin and get away with it?  THAT

 

We are, all of us, subject to the whims of society our own physical and mental limitations and the desires of the Lord of History - Jesus.



#1344
His_disciple3

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Delivered by
C. H. SPURGEON,
At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.
On a Lord's-day Evening in the winter of 1857

The doctrine of Holy Scripture is this, that God is just, that Christ died in the stead of his people, and that, as God is just, he will never punish one solitary soul of Adam's race for whom the Saviour did thus shed his blood. The Saviour did, indeed, in a certain sense, die for all; all men receive many a mercy through his blood, but that he was the Substitute and Surety for all men, is so inconsistent, both with reason and Scripture, that we are obliged to reject the doctrine with abhorrence. No, my soul, how shalt thou be punished if thy Lord endured thy punishment for thee? Did he die for thee? O my soul, if Jesus was not thy Substitute, and did not die in thy very stead, then he is no Saviour to thee! But if he was thy Substitute, if he suffered as thy Surety, in thy stead, then, my soul, "Who is he that condemneth?" Christ hath died, yea, rather, hath risen again, and sitteth at the right hand of God, and maketh intercession for us.

#1345
enoob57

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Delivered by
C. H. SPURGEON,
At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.
On a Lord's-day Evening in the winter of 1857

The doctrine of Holy Scripture is this, that God is just, that Christ died in the stead of his people, and that, as God is just, he will never punish one solitary soul of Adam's race for whom the Saviour did thus shed his blood. The Saviour did, indeed, in a certain sense, die for all; all men receive many a mercy through his blood, but that he was the Substitute and Surety for all men, is so inconsistent, both with reason and Scripture, that we are obliged to reject the doctrine with abhorrence. No, my soul, how shalt thou be punished if thy Lord endured thy punishment for thee? Did he die for thee? O my soul, if Jesus was not thy Substitute, and did not die in thy very stead, then he is no Saviour to thee! But if he was thy Substitute, if he suffered as thy Surety, in thy stead, then, my soul, "Who is he that condemneth?" Christ hath died, yea, rather, hath risen again, and sitteth at the right hand of God, and maketh intercession for us.

Limited atonement is denial of the literal sense of many Scriptures but the most direct is here
Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should
first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of
everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
KJV

Love, Steven

#1346
bopeep1909

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Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.


 


#1347
Donibm

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TULIP didn't originate with CAlvanism ... to the great surprise of most people.

 

 

There is a very, very good debate between Baptist (Calvanist) Dr. Timothy White and Jew (Armanist) Dr. Brown.  YouTube it.  If its the telephone debate, its the wrong one.  But if you find the one that they are standing live, that is the right one.  It is two hours long.

 

Dr White does NOT support "hyper Calvanist" nor does he support the "once saved, always saved, so sin as you like" license to sin, nor does he support Calvanist pastors who refuse to preach the full gospel just because they think God is to do it all.  Dr. White believes in "selection", not that other stuff.



#1348
EnochBethany

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Verily, it hath been posted: "Dr White does NOT support "hyper Calvanist" nor does he support the "once saved, always saved, so sin as you like" license to sin, nor does he support Calvanist pastors who refuse to preach the full gospel just because they think God is to do it all.  Dr. White believes in "selection", not that other stuff."

 

1) If one speaks of being saved, but denies once saved, always saved, then one does not even mean that same thing that I mean when I say I am saved.  I do not mean that I have a chance for eternal life if . . . .  I mean that I have been transformed, metamorphosized from sinner to child of God, born again with eternal life.

 

2) Realizing that the Lord Jesus has saved me & that I am secure because He paid the price for all my sins on the cross, has never motivated me to sin.  It inspired the deepest, most profound gratitude & desire not to cause sorrow to the One Who loves me so.



#1349
saved34

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Verily, it hath been posted: "Dr White does NOT support "hyper Calvanist" nor does he support the "once saved, always saved, so sin as you like" license to sin, nor does he support Calvanist pastors who refuse to preach the full gospel just because they think God is to do it all.  Dr. White believes in "selection", not that other stuff."

 

1) If one speaks of being saved, but denies once saved, always saved, then one does not even mean that same thing that I mean when I say I am saved.  I do not mean that I have a chance for eternal life if . . . .  I mean that I have been transformed, metamorphosized from sinner to child of God, born again with eternal life.

 

2) Realizing that the Lord Jesus has saved me & that I am secure because He paid the price for all my sins on the cross, has never motivated me to sin.  It inspired the deepest, most profound gratitude & desire not to cause sorrow to the One Who loves me so.

If we could only persuade our brothers and sisters on the opposite side of OSAS of this great truth. Many of them see OSAS as promoting a sinful lifestyle when it actually promotes the exact opposite. A heart full of gratitude that is compelled to please him who called us out of darkness into light.



#1350
EnochBethany

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Verily, it hath been posted: "Dr White does NOT support "hyper Calvanist" nor does he support the "once saved, always saved, so sin as you like" license to sin, nor does he support Calvanist pastors who refuse to preach the full gospel just because they think God is to do it all.  Dr. White believes in "selection", not that other stuff."

 

1) If one speaks of being saved, but denies once saved, always saved, then one does not even mean that same thing that I mean when I say I am saved.  I do not mean that I have a chance for eternal life if . . . .  I mean that I have been transformed, metamorphosized from sinner to child of God, born again with eternal life.

 

2) Realizing that the Lord Jesus has saved me & that I am secure because He paid the price for all my sins on the cross, has never motivated me to sin.  It inspired the deepest, most profound gratitude & desire not to cause sorrow to the One Who loves me so.

If we could only persuade our brothers and sisters on the opposite side of OSAS of this great truth. Many of them see OSAS as promoting a sinful lifestyle when it actually promotes the exact opposite. A heart full of gratitude that is compelled to please him who called us out of darkness into light.

 

14 For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;  15 and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again.

 

We who died to sin, how shall we anymore live therein?

 

It may seem strange, but the Lord cares greatly that we trust Him.  Why should He set the condition of salvation that we trust Him?

 

IMHO, the unregenerate person does not want to be saved by grace.  For to have to be saved by grace goes along with depravity. 

 

The unregenerate mindset:

Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me?  Why that is an affront to the dignity.  The problem is self-esteem; I don't love my self enough; I don't respect myself enough.

Why I don't need grace; for I am a good person, and God would be honored to have me live with Him with all the good deeds I do. 

 

I cannot accept that a person who says he can lose his salvation is saved at all -- for he does not trust Christ as His Savior; he does not trust that Christ is definitely going to get him to Heaven.



#1351
ajchurney

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EnochBethany,

You said, "I cannot accept that a person who says he can lose his salvation is saved at all -- for he does not trust Christ as His Savior; he does not trust that Christ is definitely going to get him to Heaven."

 

If you actually mean what you wrote, you contradict yourself fiercely. You argue elsewhere vociferously that salvation is grace through faith plus nothing, and now you find it hard to imagine a saved person who doesn't tow your razor-fine doctrinal line here. Shame on you! I seriously cannot believe you posted this! I happened to believe strongly in eternal security for a number of scriptural reasons. However, I wrestled for years with the issues, though never disbelieving I was truly born again, or that Christ had paid my debt. I was simply wrestling with some difficult scriptures, as well as wanting to make sure that I was not assuming or misunderstanding anything. If you do not personally know someone that shows all the fruit of being born again who leans toward the possibility of being able to fall away and reject God, then I wonder how small your circle of association has been. I have known a number of very godly and faithful pastors who disagree with me on eternal security, but passionately love and serve Jesus Christ. I appreciate so much of what you post on Worthy, but your prejudice here honestly shocks me. 






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