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Does God really love everyone?


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#1
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Romans 9:13 -- "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This does not sound like God loved Esau. Most religion including Christianity teaches that God loves everyone but I am not at all confused about what the word "hate" means.

Does God hate?

Dan

#2
RebekahDavid

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blessings dan,
the Bible says God hates sin very clearly. "Esau i hate" has been discused on another thread elsewhere where it was noted that the translation was closer to "love less". and the Bible of course says that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. hope that helps.
love your sister in Christ,
Rebekah David

#3
traveller

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The way I interpret this, is that Esau thought little of what God gave him, which was his birthright. He casually threw it away as if it meant nothing and was of less value than a bowl of soup. What exactly is a birthright? Back then it was everything. It meant authority and leadership. It meant your future. For lack of a better word, it meant your destiny. Spiritually speaking, this is what the Lord Jesus offers us, when we are born again, and this, I think, is why God said that he hated Esau. He was tossing out the spiritual offering for one of flesh.

God hated the choice. And yes - He really does love everyone, jsut not their choices.

#4
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Not that I really have a position on this but here are some other passages in the Bible that seem to clearly identify people (not just their sin) that God hates. I find this disturbing and it actually discourages me because I feel like no matter what I say or do, I can't "ELECT" myself into Gods favor. He appearently chooses who he will have mercy on.

If we are predestined to hell, why bother seeking God?
In fact it makes perfectly good sence to please your flesh as much as you possibly can while your here on earth.

I don't see these as "inhouse" debates. These are two different versions of truth.

Read these verses.....
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."


Dan

#5
RebekahDavid

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blessings,
Romans 3
5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


love your sister in Christ,
Rebekah David

#6
RebekahDavid

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blessings,
if they repent believe they will recieve forgiveness:

1 Corinthians 6

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

love your sister in Christ,
Rebekah David

#7
Shad

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People read those passages and often mistake the fact that it's the SIN of the people that God is referring to not the actual people themselves.

#8
WayneB

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I haven't done a word study of the entire Bible yet but I can offer, as others have suggested, that before you draw any firm conclusions, look up the troubling phrase in the original language. A good Study Bible I recently found is the Keyword Study Bible in both the KJV and NASB.

Regardless, this is the passage of Scripture that satisfies me (and one which RD posted)...

Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life

God wants a relationship with each and everyone who will answer His call! The Word is clear on that. Christ died for the ungodly!

#9
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God wants a relationship with each and everyone who will answer His call! The Word is clear on that. Christ died for the ungodly!


If God wants, wills, desires a relationship with someone and not everyone has a relationship with God, what does God's wants, will or desire have to do with salvation? The only answer you can logically conclude is "nothing." God's wants, will and desires are subject to man's wants, will and desire.

Christ died to save “his people from their sins” and not all. (Matt. 20:28) Chris’s blood was “poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” and not all. (Matt. 26:28) Jesus Christ is “the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive that promised eternal inheritance” (Heb. 9:15) and if all are called then all must receive the promise (John 6). I don’t understand how people miss the point of the nation of Israel, how they were chosen over all the other Semitic tribes of the desert to be God’s people, God leaving all other nations without hope, lost in their sin never to be saved.

...and lets not forget the early church “were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia.” (Acts 16:6) And since we know that is true, “how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?” Not everyone who has ever lived has had the chance to hear the Gospel. Not everyone has had the chance to accept or reject the Gospel, we need to be grounded in scripture and declare the truth, “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:18

j

#10
dcampsart

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I haven't done a word study of the entire Bible yet but I can offer, as others have suggested, that before you draw any firm conclusions, look up the troubling phrase in the original language.


I decided to do what WayneB recommended.

I searched Strong’s Concordance at blueletterbible.org to compare what the original Hebrew meaning for the word “hated” was compared to the original Greek word found in Romans 9:13. The website stated Strong's Number G3404 matches the Greek μισέω (miseō), which occurs 42 times in 38 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

OLD TESTAMENT

Mal 1:2-3
2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the LORD. “Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness.”

The word “loved” used toward Jacob in verse 2 is Strong’s H157 - 'ahab

Outline of biblical usage:
1) to love a) (Qal) 1) human love for another, includes family, and sexual 2) human appetite for objects such as food, drink, sleep, wisdom 3) human love for or to God 4) act of being a friend a) lover (participle) b) friend (participle) 5) God's love toward man a) to individual men b) to people Israel c) to righteousness b) (Niphal) 1) lovely (participle) 2) loveable (participle) c) (Piel) 1) friends 2) lovers (fig. of adulterers) 2) to like

The word “hated” used toward Esau in verse 3 is Strong’s H8130 - sane'

Outline of biblical usage:
1) to hate, be hateful a) (Qal) to hate 1) of man 2) of God 3) hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst) b) (Niphal) to be hated c) (Piel) hater (participle) 1) of persons, nations, God, wisdom

NEW TESTAMENT

Romans 9:13
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The word “loved” used toward Jacob in verse 13 is Strong’s G25 – agapaō

Outline of biblical usage:
1) of persons a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly 2) of things a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing

The word “hated” used toward Esau in verse 13 is Strong’s G3404 – miseō

Outline of biblical usage:
1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest 2) to be hated, detested

I’m a little alarmed to not find anything that says the original Hebrew or Greek meaning for the words “hate” or “hated” lead one to believe that they could mean “love or loved less.” Another thing I find interesting is how the original Greek meaning for “hate” or “hated” used in Romans 9:13 (G3404) is used in numerous other NT scriptures, such as:

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated (G3404) both me and my Father. [John 15:24]

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated (G3404) them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [John 17:14]

If I stopped right here, it would seem that the original Hebrew and Greek meaning for the word “hate” or “hated” used to describe God’s disposition toward Esau, would mean literally just what they say when thinking about the same meaning denotes the hatred people had for Christ and his disciples. I’m sure they didn’t love Christ or his disciples LESS… they HATED them. I can’t seem to find where the meaning of those words have anything to do with God “loves or loving Esau LESS.”

:thumbsup: Before anyone tears into me, one would be hard-pressed to explain why the original Greek meaning for the same word “hate” (G3404) is used in the following verse:

26 If any man come to me, and hate (G3404) not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. [Luke 14:26]

Remember the original Greek meaning of the word “hate” (G3404) used in the above verse also means 1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest 2) to be hated, detested. Would God want us to literally “hate” our loved ones? Certainly not but maybe in comparison to how much we are to love God first, above all else, our love for our loved ones would pale in comparison – even end up looking like hatred in contrast.

I hope I don’t upset anyone with this reply. I really don’t know about this. I looked up the words original Hebrew and Greek meaning with the intent of reinforcing my belief the word “hated” used in Romans 9:13 truly meant God loved Esau LESS… not that he hated or DETESTED him.

I truly want your feedback. It was said that another thread was started in the past about this subject. If anyone could give me some concrete evidence as to why the idea that the word “hated” used in Romans 9:13 truly meant God “loved Esau LESS”, I would really appreciate it!

I humbly submit… :wub:

#11
Tengogozo

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Romans 9:13 -- "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This does not sound like God loved Esau. Most religion including Christianity teaches that God loves everyone but I am not at all confused about what the word "hate" means.

Does God hate?

Dan


God hates sin, but he loves the sinner. He did, after all, send His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us. That is how we know He loves us. And how we can determine our worth. Since the value of anything is based on what price some one will pay for it. We are of infinate value, because Jesus died for us. Because He loves us.

Love is not a warm fuzzy feeling. Any one who has delt with a ticked-off teenager with a big smart mouth knows that. Love is wanting the very best for someone. Love is demonstrated by a willingness to sacrifice for the beloved.

Look at how God blessed Esau, and look at who Esau's desendents are. It is, compared to Jacob, God hated Esau.

By the bye, the opposite of Love isn't really hate, it is apathy.

#12
kross

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Romans 9:13 -- "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This does not sound like God loved Esau. Most religion including Christianity teaches that God loves everyone but I am not at all confused about what the word "hate" means.

Does God hate?

Dan

You will hear people tell you that the closer translation is "love less". This translation is not based in the original greek, it is based more in the idea that GOD does not hate.

In all of the Bible, the only place it is stated "GOD loves" someone, it is towards a particular person or people. There is no scripture in the Bible that teaches "GOD loves everybody". There is another post in this thread that teaches a pretty good lesson on the original text.

#13
dcampsart

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Romans 9:13 -- "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This does not sound like God loved Esau. Most religion including Christianity teaches that God loves everyone but I am not at all confused about what the word "hate" means.

Does God hate?

Dan

You will hear people tell you that the closer translation is "love less". This translation is not based in the original greek, it is based more in the idea that GOD does not hate.

In all of the Bible, the only place it is stated "GOD loves" someone, it is towards a particular person or people. There is no scripture in the Bible that teaches "GOD loves everybody". There is another post in this thread that teaches a pretty good lesson on the original text.


I searched the word "whosoever" for the original Greek meaning in John 3:16:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [John 3:16]

The word "whosoever" used in verse 16 is Strong's G3956 - pas

Outline of bible usage:
1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively
a) some of all types

Underneath "collectively" and "some of all types", was a commentary by Spurgeon:

"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sortssome Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

The way the commentary is arranged directly below "collectively" causes me to wonder, first of all, is the commentary from Strong's Concordance or did the website blueletterbible.org place it there. Either way, would placing Spurgeon's commentary in there denote a certain bias? When I read the biblical usage under "individually" I would come away thinking that "whosoever" truly means anyone but I'm a little perplexed why Spurgeon' commentary is under "collectively" and "some of all types." Maybe the biblical usage writing is attempting to be unbias and display both sides of the camp.

I'm JUST ASKING... could the whole world or whosoever be only the world of the CALLED... or CHOSEN... or ELECT?

What do you think?

#14
kross

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Romans 9:13 -- "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This does not sound like God loved Esau. Most religion including Christianity teaches that God loves everyone but I am not at all confused about what the word "hate" means.

Does God hate?

Dan


God hates sin, but he loves the sinner. He did, after all, send His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us. That is how we know He loves us. And how we can determine our worth. Since the value of anything is based on what price some one will pay for it. We are of infinate value, because Jesus died for us. Because He loves us.

Love is not a warm fuzzy feeling. Any one who has delt with a ticked-off teenager with a big smart mouth knows that. Love is wanting the very best for someone. Love is demonstrated by a willingness to sacrifice for the beloved.

Look at how God blessed Esau, and look at who Esau's desendents are. It is, compared to Jacob, God hated Esau.

By the bye, the opposite of Love isn't really hate, it is apathy.

INterestingly enough, the Bible says GOD hates the wicked.

#15
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.Leviticus 20:23
And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Proverbs 6:16, 19
These six things doth the LORD hate ... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Hosea 9:15
I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings.

Malachi 1:3
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

#16
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Romans 9:13 -- "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This does not sound like God loved Esau. Most religion including Christianity teaches that God loves everyone but I am not at all confused about what the word "hate" means.

Does God hate?

Dan


God hates sin, but he loves the sinner. He did, after all, send His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us. That is how we know He loves us. And how we can determine our worth. Since the value of anything is based on what price some one will pay for it. We are of infinate value, because Jesus died for us. Because He loves us.

Love is not a warm fuzzy feeling. Any one who has delt with a ticked-off teenager with a big smart mouth knows that. Love is wanting the very best for someone. Love is demonstrated by a willingness to sacrifice for the beloved.

Look at how God blessed Esau, and look at who Esau's desendents are. It is, compared to Jacob, God hated Esau.

By the bye, the opposite of Love isn't really hate, it is apathy.


So god was apathetic towards Esau? I thought he was no respector of men but here he seems to clearly play favorites.

If your are one of those who recieves God's apathy, should you worship and praise him as one he loves?

Dan

#17
Matthitjah

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Grace to you,

As both Wayne and Rebekah have posted. God is not apathetic. His Love is active as much as His hatred of sin is, so much so, that the situation will end in violent conflict.


Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life

Peace,
Dave

#18
kross

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Romans 9:13 -- "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This does not sound like God loved Esau. Most religion including Christianity teaches that God loves everyone but I am not at all confused about what the word "hate" means.

Does God hate?

Dan


God hates sin, but he loves the sinner. He did, after all, send His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us. That is how we know He loves us. And how we can determine our worth. Since the value of anything is based on what price some one will pay for it. We are of infinate value, because Jesus died for us. Because He loves us.

Love is not a warm fuzzy feeling. Any one who has delt with a ticked-off teenager with a big smart mouth knows that. Love is wanting the very best for someone. Love is demonstrated by a willingness to sacrifice for the beloved.

Look at how God blessed Esau, and look at who Esau's desendents are. It is, compared to Jacob, God hated Esau.

By the bye, the opposite of Love isn't really hate, it is apathy.


So god was apathetic towards Esau? I thought he was no respector of men but here he seems to clearly play favorites.

If your are one of those who recieves God's apathy, should you worship and praise him as one he loves?

Dan

Those GOD loves, will love JESUS. Those who love JESUS, will be loved of GOD. The saved live in their salvation, the unsaved die in their sins. No one who doesn't love GOD is going to worship and praise HIM.

O, and the "no respector of persons" refers to position or social standing.

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I'm still hoping somebody could enlighten me on what reference or evidence the thought that God didn't truly "hate" Esau but, instead, "loved him less" is based on.

I read in a past thread where someone said that the original meaning of the word used in Mal 1:2-3 and Rom 9:13 was not really directed toward Esau as a person, but his descendants - the Edomites, emphasising the difference in what took place in future events between them and the descendants of Jacob (Israel). So... I decided to look up the original Hebrew and Greek for the name Jacob and Esau. True enough, their names do mean Jacob - the nation of Israel and Esau - the Edomites (seemingly in a poetic sense) but that still doesn't change the original meanings, Hebrew or Greek, for the words "hate" or "hated" used in the verses of the OT and NT. The original meanings of the words, according to Strong's Concordance, denote actual hate or hatred on God's part - especially the original meaning in Rom 9:13 (G3404) where it declares the original intent to be as severe as one who (person or nation) is DETESTED! I really don't see the explanation given by the one who replied with the above idea that God did not or does not hate the person of Esau but his disposition was toward his descendants has anything to do with the words' "hate" or "hated" original meaning.

Could the attempt to dismiss the idea of God actually hating anybody be founded on personal opinion and not hard-core evidence? Is the concept of God truly not hating Esau but, instead, "loving him less" than Jacob be based on mere human emotion? Again... I don't know... but I'D LIKE TO!

I used to lean more toward Arminian beliefs but... since coming back to God several years ago, I started leaning over toward the Calvinisitic camp after researching and studying the concept of etenal security chiefly. If my position was to be displayed on a linear graph, I believe I would be found smack-dab in the middle. Sorry but I believe there is credence and cetain truths coming from both sides. For awhile, I felt there was a sense of urgency to quit straddling the fence and move to one side or the other but I don't feel that way anymore. Actually, I feel a certain "comfort zone" staying in the middle of the debate for now.

It truly is not my intention to declare I'm for this or I'm for that but I do eagerly wish to absorb many thoughts and interpretations in this thread.

#20
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Romans 9:13 -- "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This does not sound like God loved Esau. Most religion including Christianity teaches that God loves everyone but I am not at all confused about what the word "hate" means.

Does God hate?

Dan


God hates sin, but he loves the sinner. He did, after all, send His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us. That is how we know He loves us. And how we can determine our worth. Since the value of anything is based on what price some one will pay for it. We are of infinate value, because Jesus died for us. Because He loves us.

Love is not a warm fuzzy feeling. Any one who has delt with a ticked-off teenager with a big smart mouth knows that. Love is wanting the very best for someone. Love is demonstrated by a willingness to sacrifice for the beloved.

Look at how God blessed Esau, and look at who Esau's desendents are. It is, compared to Jacob, God hated Esau.

By the bye, the opposite of Love isn't really hate, it is apathy.


So god was apathetic towards Esau? I thought he was no respector of men but here he seems to clearly play favorites.

If your are one of those who recieves God's apathy, should you worship and praise him as one he loves?

Dan

Those GOD loves, will love JESUS. Those who love JESUS, will be loved of GOD. The saved live in their salvation, the unsaved die in their sins. No one who doesn't love GOD is going to worship and praise HIM.

O, and the "no respector of persons" refers to position or social standing.

And for those who God never loved?




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