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A place to exchange viewpoints on the various end time prophecy subjects.

  1. What's new in this club
  2. The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days Dan. 11:45 And he [the King of the North] shall plant the tents of his pavilion between [the] seas at the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. 12:1 And at that time…there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time… Matt. 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place… 21 …then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time… The above passages describe the key events that lead to the Great Tribulation. The passages below describe the ensuing time period, that of the persecution against the Israelite peoples. (The Book of Daniel says nothing about the Church, which was a “mystery” yet to be revealed to both Israel and the angels. Rom. 16:25; Col. 1:26; 1 Pet. 1:12) Dan. 12:6 …How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders? 7 …[it shall be] for a time, times, and an half [= 3½ times/1260 days]; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished. … 11 And from the time [that] the daily/continual shall be taken away, and an abomination of desolation is set up, [there shall be] 1290 days. 12 Blessed [is] he who waits, and comes to the 1335 days. Dan. 7:25 And he [the Little Horn] shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they [the saints/holy people] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time [= 3½ times/1260 days]. Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto it [the Beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and authority was given unto him [the Mouth/spokesman] to continue forty [and] two months [= 3½ times/1260 days]. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, … 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them… So now to the question: we see above that the period of persecution of Israel shall be for 1260 days, but the period from the beginning of the Great Tribulation, commencing when the Abomination of Desolation is set up, shall be 1290 days until Israel is delivered. Or possibly 1335 days. 1290 – 1260 = 30 days. 1335 – 1260 = 75 days. Is not one of these periods, 30 or 75 days, therefore the length of the Great Tribulation, “immediately after” (Matt. 24:29) which the Lord descends to gather out His elect in the Rapture? For a different look at why I believe there will be a “short trib,” see my blog post Forty Days. (Read my blog! Know new praxis!)
  3. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    Answer: because the faithful of the Church have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, which the Israelites, being a soulish/psuchikos people, never were. 1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural/psuchikos man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually/pneumatikōs discerned. 1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural/psuchikos body; it is raised a spiritual/pneumatikos body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual/pneumatikos body. ... 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual/pneumatikos, but that which is natural/psuchikos; and afterward that which is spiritual/pneumatikos. Those who are in the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, will not undergo any part of God's wrath. (Satan's wrath, that is a different story!) This is the distinction between those of the Firstfruits and those of the Harvest -- which just happens to be the subject of my latest blog. (Shameless plug.) Those of a spiritual nature, that is, the elect of the Church, will ascend in the Rapture just prior to the Wrath of God. Those of both Israel and the non-elect of the Church, that is, believers who have not overcome their human nature/psuche, will not ascend, and will go through the Wrath. All will go through the GT. Read my blog for the details.
  4. Da Puppers

    When Wrath Begins

    A widely discussed scripture is "we have not been appointed to wrath...". And so the debate begins, "when does the wrath begin? " But the scriptures are plentiful concerning the times in which God poured out his wrath upon them, with "them" referring to the children of Israel. So how can we say that we will be removed from the outpouring of his wrath, when they were not? Under no circumstances did God ever destroy them all. A prime example would be when Moses interceded to God, for him not to destroy them all in his wrath. A proper definition of God's wrath would be that out is directed ONLY at the wicked. Is God incapable of deliverance of the righteous from his wrath, in a safe manner? What of this? *[[Ezr 8:22]] KJV* For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him. *[[Ezr 8:23]] KJV* So we fasted and besought our God for this: and he was intreated of us. Verse 23 seems to indicate that, in God's eyes, they had not misspoke. So when it says that we are not appointed to wrath, can we rightly conclude that that means we will be removed, via the rapture? Blessings The PuP P.s. I am not changing or even questioning my views concerning the timing of the rapture, just one of its motives for timing placement. If I am right on my thinking, this dispels the principle notion of a pretrib rapture because of wrath.
  5. WilliamL

    Climbing the Mountain

    The higher one climbs the mountain, the more one is able to see of the mountain. The vistas become greater; while, at the same time, the way becomes more and more limited. Which is to say, the more biblical prophecies one learns, the narrower the possibilities become for all of them to fit into one single eschatology. Over and over again we see people on online prophecy forums who have "the answer," based upon only a relatively few prophetic passages. Most of such folks get really upset when you introduce a prophecy they have never heard of before that contradicts their brilliant thesis. After 20 years of working online prophecy forums, I have become convinced that the only eschatological view that cannot be contravened by any biblical prophecy is the post-trib, pre-wrath, 6th Seal rapture. I've tried to destroy it by every test I and others can come up with, and it continually responds with sound explanations to overcome such tests. But ya'all keep trying, because each new test generally expands my understanding.
  6. Steve Conley

    When Wrath Begins

    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, thanks for your response. I have a question: If in Matt 24:15 Jesus is not referring to Daniel 9:27 than to what statement in Daniel is He referring to. Also in Daniel 9:27, where the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst of the heptad (seven years) providing ~ 3.5 years remaining in the week, there is a correlation to the seven mentions of such a period in the books of Daniel and Revelation. Let Jesus be praised.
  7. WilliamL

    The Abomination of Desolation

    This blog entry of mine describes the scene. Note the proper translation of 2 Thes. 2:4 -- "he sits as a god" is the proper Greek, not "God." Matthew 24:15-30; Daniel 11:40-12:2; 2 Thessalonians 2; Numbers 24:24 Let's put these closely related prophecies together: Matt 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place... 21 then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been... 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days...the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 ...and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Dan. 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the south shall attack him [the king of the north]; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind... [41-43 enter and occupy the Holy Land; subdue Egypt, Libya, and Cush (prob. = Sudan); but not subdue or occupy Edom, Moab, and Ammon (= the whole or parts of the modern countries of Jordan and Saudi Arabia) 44 But news from the east [towards Iraq and Iran] and the north [towards Russia and/or Turkey] shall trouble him... 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain; but he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, ...And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was... 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..." 2 Thes 2:1 ...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... 3 that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the Son of Perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the naos/holy place/sanctuary of God, showing himself that he is a god. ... 8...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. Beginning at Daniel 11:40, we see IN THE END TIMES a king/potentate to the south of the Holy Land, which south is currently all Islamic, attacking somehow a ruler of the north, that is, one out of the historical Graeco-Roman culture. The northern ruler invades from north to south, enters and occupies (seemingly peacefully) Israel, and then forcefully invades Islamic Egypt, Libya, and southwards; but neither Jordan nor Saudi Arabia -- currently allies of America and Europe -- are troubled at all. This ruler returns to Israel and sets up his headquarters on the Temple Mount; then he comes to his end around the time of the Great Tribulation and subsequent resurrection of the dead. Now, if people can't see the fit between this passage, and what Jesus prophesied about the same period in the End Times, and what Paul prophesied about the Son of Perdition likewise setting himself up in the Holy Place on the Temple Mount, but being brought to his end at the Coming of the Lord ... then those people are else either really ignorant of the Scriptures, or else they refuse to see something that runs contrary to their beliefs about the sequence of events of the End Times. Everything described in the above passages describes a post-trib, but pre-wrath, Second Coming: the Abomination of Desolation is accomplished by the Son of Perdition/King of the North; immediately followed by the Great Tribulation; immediately followed by the Resurrection of the Dead at the Second Coming, concurrent with the demise of the Son of Perdition. At that point of the Second Coming, nothing at all concerning the post-Revelation 7 events that take place during the time of the Wrath of God are even hinted at (with the exception of a hint of a future invasion from out of the east). At the Second Coming, the Beast of Revelation 11, 13, 17 has not yet arrived. A prophecy of Balaam directly speaks about this same period right before the Second Coming: Dan. 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships... Num. 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast [lit. hand] of Kittim [lands northwest of the Middle East]... Dan. 11:40 and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many shall stumble/become weak-legged... Num. 24:24 ...and shall afflict Asshur/Assyria [the region covering parts of Syria, northern Iraq, and southern Turkey, all now in conflict], and shall afflict Eber [the Hebrews/Jews/Israel]... Dan. 11:45 ...but he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. Num. 24:24 ...and he also shall perish for ever. According to the Book of Jasher, which was written in the same era as this prophecy by Balaam, the Kittim were the tribe who became the Romans: Jasher 10:16 And the children of Kittim are the Romim who dwell in the valley of Canopia [Canopus] by the river Tibreu [Tiber]. Likewise, the "ships of Kittim" mentioned in Dan. 11:30, who came against Antichus IV Epiphanes in 168 B.C. and drove him out of Egypt, were Roman ships carrying a Roman envoy. This is why I believe the King of the North will be one of the Western powers -- those having a Graeco-Roman heritage -- and not Turkey. Antiochus IV Epiphanes was of the royal bloodline of the Syrian Seleucids, but he came from Rome (1 Macc. 1:10) at the time that he 'came in peaceably, and seized the kingdom by flatteries/slickness.' Dan. 11:21 He had been held hostage in Rome for 14 years beginning in his youth, and had become substantially Romanized. So he was the first King of the North to have the Graeco-Roman hybridization. Through his establishment of an "abomination of desolation" on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (Dan. 11:31), he became the preeminent type of the Latter Day Son of Perdition.
  8. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    Rev. 11:7 When they [the Two witnesses] finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. Rev. 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. ... 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” Rev. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of man [alt. man's number]: it's number is 666. The Beast will ascend from out of the Abyss, where fallen angels are. Jude 6; 2 Pet. 2:4; also Book of Enoch and other ancient sources. No scripture says men are there, or ever were. Just because The Beast "has man's number" does not make him a man. It may appear as a man [and that is doubtful], it may rule like a man, but it is not a man. More to the point, the demise of the Son of Perdition takes place when "the Lord will consume [him] with the breath of His mouth and destroy [him] with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thes 2:8 The context of 2 Thes. 1-2 is about the Second Coming of Christ for His Church. That is, it is pre-wrath. Whereas the demise of the Beast takes place at the very end of the whole period of God's Wrath. These are two different antichrists: one pre-wrath, the other post-trib, during-wrath. Just as the original Son of Perdition, Judas, came before and met his demise before the ascension of Christ and the resurrected dead; and then he was followed by "the ruler/archon of this world" after Christ and the dead ascended. John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11 Daniel 9:27, indeed the whole passage of 24-27, has no End Time terminology in it at all, because it does not describe the End Times. It perfectly describes the events of the first century A.D. ending in the 7-year Jewish War of 66-73.
  9. Da Puppers

    The Abomination of Desolation

    I hold to an untraditional view of what it is. Upfront, I will say it has nothing to do with 2 Thess 2 when the man of sin SITS in the temple shewing himself that he is God. According to Eze 8, we know what constitutes an abomination: *[[Eze 8:10]] KJV* So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about... *[[Eze 8:13]] KJV* He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. Antiochus E did not commit the AoD; but he set up an abomination of Zeus. Abomination to God, is the allowing the worship of other gods by his people, Israel. The future AoD has nothing to do with what A man does. It will be the collective act of the children of Israel. I used to think that it was simply the rebuilding of the temple. Claiming to worship God the Father, in absence of God the Son, is not what I would consider worshipping another God. The 40 years after the crucifixion, was never viewed as an abomination, otherwise God would not wait to destroy the temple. The future AoD will involve joint worship of another God on temple mount, whether it be Islam or not, (probably so) . But without a doubt, the temple will be rebuilt before the GT begins. Blessings The PuP
  10. I'm curious as to how others view the AoD. It seems to be the watershed event of the last days. I see the abomination as this: Who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 And the ensuing desolation as this: And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 12:15-17
  11. Brother Duke, I think it's a simple matter to identify the beast well before the A of D. He'll be the one who is the eighth and of the 7, with the deadly head wound that got healed. The A of D is not the identifier of the beast, rather it's the revealing of the true nature of the beast. I hate to say this because Matt 24 is for everyone but the A of D warning is for those in Judea as specified by Jesus. "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." Why? Because the wrath of the dragon is going to begin in Israel directed against the Jews, first. But again: Why? Isn't the revealing for everyone, not just Jews? Sure, but the Jews made a deal with the devil previous to this revealing when, "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" happened here: "Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:" This is an end of the age passage about the beast and the 2nd advent from Isaiah 28. The Jews know what they have done but are willingly blind to it because they believed the benefits outweighed the risk. Of course it will not stand as Isaiah goes on to explain. "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. 22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth." This 'overwhelming scourge' is the beast and the exceeding difficult trials upon the earth, beginning in Jerusalem. This is why Jesus spoke of the A of D coupled with the warning to those in Judea. It seems the inhabitants of Judea needed a special warning specifically for them as they will not allow themselves to see the beast with complete clarity, even though we who are watching can and will identify the beast from the start. The beast isn't going to be part of any world governing body. He will not be a slick orator, perfectly coiffed, dressed to the nines with genius level political savvy; he will not come to power through military might or popular vote, he will rise to power through the influence of the dragon by the healing of the mortal wound, to wit; "The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” If the beast rises to power through a world governing organization then why not say this in Rev 13? Or somewhere else in Rev? Or scripture? It's not going to happen that way. The beast receives power and authority directly from the dragon and the world is in awe of the beast because of the deadly head wound that was healed, not because he is Sec Gen of the UN. I think this is a hard thing for many people to grasp. It's been so long the memories have faded into the deepest blackness, but there was a time when real power interacted in the realms of men, that time is coming again. Gods will walk the earth again and most will worship this power. "The fatal wound had been healed. The whole world followed the beast." Simple and clear identifier, well before the A of D. Why do they ask, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” From the context there are three reasons: he was raised from the dead, and he has real power and authority. The world also worships the dragon. Can we see the dragon? Do we witness this being in physical form? I think so. Some speculation: How would we know the beast rises from the dead? I have heard reports of evangelists raising people from the dead. I don't disbelieve this but it can't be reliably verified. It's a real issue then to get the entire world to believe the beast was actually raised from the dead, or a deadly head wound healed. It's plausible the beast should be well known before this deadly wound occurs. What if this character is globally infamous? He commits some terrifying, brutal act that shocks the world and becomes a household name through social media. The act goes viral and everyone is disgusted and offended. In an evil parallel to the trial, conviction and execution of Jesus this man is caught and put on trial before the whole planet. Not a stretch if the depth of his infamy is truly shocking, we love to dwell in ambivalence. We then witness the execution gone viral and some days later we witness the dead man walking, again gone viral. So we will know well before the A of D. Here's an interesting quote by Graeme Wood in The New Republic: "the Bahraini cleric Turki al-Bin’ali, cites a saying attributed to Muhammad that predicts a total of twelve caliphs before the end of the world. Bin’ali considers only seven of the caliphs of history legitimate. That makes Baghdadi the eighth out of twelve..." https://newrepublic.com/article/119259/isis-history-islamic-states-new-caliphate-syria-and-iraq" If this guy is the 8th of 12, then he is also "the eighth and is of the seven". Ever heard anyone else described this way? Baghdadi has the same tribal lineage as the first seven, and he is just as bloodthirsty as the first iteration of Islam when they demanded conversion on pain of death. This is really the truth behind the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay from the statue in Dan 2, Islam. Bin'ali is now dead, killed in a coalition attack by a smart bomb. But Baghdadi is not dead yet. On the run, heard he was wounded. The Iraqi army wants him captured and is hot on his trail. I'll be keeping close watch as always.
  12. Diaste

    When Wrath Begins

    Hey Steve, I agree here. "Behold I come as a thief..." can be understood as a declaration of an attribute or physical location in time and space. 'Erchomai' does not only suggest coming from one place to another if the context does not so indicate. "I am here." "I have arrived." are both valid definitions of 'erchomai' depending on the context. In other words, Jesus 'has arrived' and is present and is in full control of the retaking of creation. And just because the wrath of the Lamb is in full burn does not mean that mankind is now static. Some are from what we read in Rev 6, hiding in the caves, etc. however we cannot be dogmatic about the actions of mankind as immobilized. The armies are on the march during the time of wrath, that is clear. What's to say that the rest of mankind left after the gathering is not filled with hate for Jesus and marshals their forces to march on the Mount of Olives and destroy the one who is plaguing them, joining with the armies already surrounding Jerusalem? I think this is exactly what will happen. Jesus is here, on earth, at the Mount of Olives, astride the valley to where the Jews fled for protection in the day when God will fight for them, per Zechariah, striking the earth and infuriating the rebellious to the point of retaliation. They march on to Israel to defeat the Lord and meet their destiny in the Valley of Jehoshaphat. I'm a big movie guy. I especially like to watch Sci-Fi. A theme that plays out over and over in the movies is what is described above. Some 'invader' from the skies is destroying the planet and mankind, and while enduring widespread destruction and physical hardship the collective forces of man coalesce to defeat this 'invader'. It's like they took the plot right out of Revelation.
  13. Steve Conley

    When Wrath Begins

    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, you are correct that "The elect/chosen of the church ascend at the 6th Seal, and are seen in Rev. 7 "having come out of the great tribulation," verse 14." You are also correct that the 144,000 remain upon the earth, having received the seal of God in their foreheads. The seal guarantees their protection from the salvo's of God's wrath as seen in Rev 9:4. However, nothing is said about the 144,000 leading anyone, rather they follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Concerning the worship of the Beast. Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. The Beast is the man that receives the worship (it is the number of a man). The one being revealed in the temple is the one receiving the worship, he exalts himself above all that is worshipped. 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this associates the abominations which make desolate with the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Hallelujah
  14. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    Yes, the earthly saints. Daniel is written to Daniel about Daniel's people Israel, never the church. The elect/chosen of the church ascend at the 6th Seal, and are seen in Rev. 7 "having come out of the great tribulation," verse 14. The only saints remaining upon the earth at that time are the saints of Israel, being led by the 144,000 Israelites "on the earth." Rev. 7:1 These are the saints that the Beast makes war against. God's judgments take place in order: first the elohim, then the church, then Israel, then the nations. The period of the Seals is the trial/testing of the church. The Trumpets are the trial of Israel. The Bowls are the time of the nations. Exactly the same sequence of judgments that took place at the Exodus. Nothing in the scriptures says any such thing: you have rationalized this without two witnesses that say so.
  15. Da Puppers

    Identifying the man of sin and the beast

    2 Thess 2:8 makes the point that "the brightness of [Jesus'] his coming" will destroy the man of sin. The brightness of his coming/ parousia IS the rapture, which takes place [near] 3.5 years before the 2nd advent. John makes the point that when Jesus comes at the time of Armageddon, that BOTH the beast and the false prophet are cast into the ladle of fire. This shows that neither one were destroyed at any time prior, which includes the rapture. So what does Paul mean when he says that the rapture will destroy the man of sin, if it is not simultaneous with his coming? It is the point about his brightness that will destroy him. The revelation of the glory of the Father, will be what manifests the deeds of the man of sin as unmistakably evil and wicked. The brightness of his coming will manifest, it will reveal, the full glory of God. But until then: *[[1Ti 3:16]] KJV* And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Until the brightness of his coming in the rapture takes place, the world, in totu, does not know the righteousness of God, that sits currently at the FATHERS right hand. The manifestation of that glory will be the undoing of the kingdom of darkness. All of those that love the light will come to the light when faced with the sword of denial and darkness. *[[1Co 4:5]] KJV* Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. Blessings The PuP
  16. Steve Conley

    When Wrath Begins

    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Williaml, Daniel and John both tell us that the beast makes war against the saints, he is the proxy for the dragon whose wrath is unleashed in the middle of the week. The Beast is the one that worship is directed toward, therefore, he is the one who stands in the temple shewing himself to be God thereby defiling it. It is the mark of the beast that the world must receive or be slain. You are wrong to assume that Apollyon is the Beast. The Beast and the man of sin are one and the same. The elect are the ones suffering great thlipsis (tribulation, persecution) up until the day that Christ appears (Matt 24:21, 22, 29-31). This great thlipsis is unprecedented persecution, that is, unparalleled violence against the church (elect) and Israel (Jer 30:7; Dan 12:1; Matt 24:9, 21-22; Rev 12:17). There is no time in the Bible called "The Tribulation". The followers of Christ (worshippers of the true God) face tribulation today and have from the days of Abel. However, right prior to Christ's return the persecution of believers will become unprecedented in scope and severity. Jesus called this increased persecution "great tribulation". Jesus said that to save some of the elect alive He would cut that persecution short. He does this by coming and rescuing those who are alive and remain before the Beast can behead every last one of us. This rescue (deliverance) we know as the resurrection and rapture. Hallelujah
  17. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    Everything about your post is dead on -- except for the latter passage in red above. The Beast does not arise UNTIL the Trumpet judgments have already begun, because the Abyss is not opened until the 5th Trumpet. The elect are not persecuted by the Beast, but by the insanities of the world's people -- and the hysteria is becoming ever greater daily, as any news program aptly shows. That hysteria is being instigated by "the prince of this world" (John 12:31), Satan, and will be magnified when he is cast to earth, "knowing that he has a short time." Rev. 12:12 After the Beast ascends from the Abyss (11:7; 17:8), Satan will then "give him his power, his throne, and great authority." 13:2 The Beast will still be in the Abyss during the Tribulation.
  18. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    When you look at Matthew 24:29-31 you'll see that people see two things. The sign of the Son of Man, and the Son of Man. Nowhere in the sixth seal does it indicate that people see the Son of Man Himself, only the sign thereof. Not every detail about the Coming of Christ in the clouds is, or can be, provided in every single passage about the event. So just because the 6th Seal does not specifically mention the heathen SEEING Jesus, it does not mean that they DON'T SEE him. "Lack of evidence FOR is not evidence AGAINST." One of the basic rules of logic. Taken all together, the scriptures are quite clear that Jesus will be seen at the 6th Seal, at the time that he has appeared to simultaneously take up his elect and begin his wrath: Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [the heavenly and earthly cataclysms]. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will wail/lament, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect... Matt. 26:63 I say to you [the Sanhedrin], hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail/lament because of Him. Rev. 6:12-14 [heavenly and earthly signs] 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains... Is. 2:19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily. [no mention of wailing/lamenting in these last two verses, but it is certainly implied] Rev. 6:16 and [the heathen] said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand? Now, you say that "Nowhere in the sixth seal does it indicate that people see the Son of Man Himself," -- but if they don't SEE him (and most of the heathen are ignorant about his Coming), why would they be worried about "the wrath of the Lamb?" That doesn't add up. The Lord comes in clouds, every eye sees him, the heathen wail, the elect ascend, the Jews are converted, the Wrath begins.
  19. Da Puppers

    When Wrath Begins

    God has ordained am abiding principal upon mankind, in order to please God. FAITH. Without faith it is impossible to please him. That principle is iterated in the words of Jesus: *[[Mat 24:42]] KJV* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. *[[Mat 24:43]] KJV* But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. These words speak to all points in time in reference to the rapture AND the 2nd advent. The coming of Christ will be as an unknown thief to everyone. To the faithful saints, the specific tune of his coming will be known only to the FATHER. But that does not preclude our being ready and watching. The culmination of our watching will be the cosmic sign, that you deftly point out at every occasion. But the lesson that the Lord has taught me concerning verse 43, was not simply to watch, but WHY we should watch. The Goodman of the house represents all of mankind. Here is the jixt of the matter. If any one of the unsaved, were to have knowledge of WHEN Jesus was coming, [like a burglar coming], they would stand in guard of that very hour. Many of the unsaved world would be standing in complete expectation of his return. In essence, they would be "serving" God out of judgmental fear, rather than from a loving relationship, spawned from a personal knowledge of God's forgiveness. In other words, serving him out of fear, rather than love. This is further demonstrated by the NON-elect angels in heaven, who serve God in his presence out of fear. *[[1Ti 5:21]] KJV* I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. We don't know much of the specifics, but this is the basis for the coming war in heaven, when Satan AND HIS ANGELS, are cast out. Many, predominantly in the world of pretrib, have grasped the concept of serving God out of love, but do not recognize those who are serving him out of fear, because they don't know when he is coming. I think what it boils down to, is their required belief in imminency. Not knowing, does not, in itself, constitute his return being imminent. It is a heart that does not [I will not say cannot] comprehend the essence of watching. They ignore the need to watch, because they are lacking in their ability to serve him with an attitude on KNOWING his return is NOT imminent. Their service is not based on a relationship of loving forgiveness, but of a fear of his unknown judgment, concerning the time of the rapture. The timing of the rapture concerns the expectation of his return [by those who are truly ready, relationshipwise]. The times that follow the rapture will elicit the desires of the unregenerate hearts, to throw off any expectations of his return at Armageddon. His return at the rapture and the advent will both be predicated upon an attitude of not watching. His timing for the rapture, after a little season of great tribulation, will impeccably demonstrate the heart that truly loves him. Blessings The PuP
  20. Last Daze

    When Wrath Begins

    That hasn't been determined yet. We may see things differently but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I explained this in an earlier post. When you look at Matthew 24:29-31 you'll see that people see two things. The sign of the Son of Man, and the Son of Man. Nowhere in the sixth seal does it indicate that people see the Son of Man Himself, only the sign thereof. So, it's randomly put there? Sandwiched between two verses concerning Armageddon? Hmmm. Steve, these details will work themselves out. We have no control over how they will come to pass. The only thing we have control over is how we are going to respond when the great tribulation comes about. Consequently, I try to emphasize preparedness. I'm not driven by the need to be affirmed, and I don't think you are either. We both realize that difficult times are coming for all believers. If the rapture happens at the sixth seal, that'll be just fine. I don't really expect to make it past the fifth seal anyway. I'm just sharing how I see things playing out. Preparedness is paramount. We can compare notes for accuracy when its all said and done, if we'll even care to at that point. Blessings brother.
  21. Steve Conley

    When Wrath Begins

    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Last Daze, you are free to believe these things if you want, but you are wrong. "The last day" is a period of time greatly exceding 24 hours. We know it as the day of Christ or the day of the Lord. It is upon Christ's arrival after descending from Heaven that the dead in Christ are raised and the survivors of great tribulation are changed. Following that, on the same day, all the elect are gathered to Christ in the clouds. Concerning Rev 16:15, neither of your two options for explaining such a text in its position between the sixth and seventh vial are correct. First, we do not use difficult passages to interpret or countermand the explicit teachings of the Holy Scriptures. To place the beginning of the day of the Lord after the sixth vial would have the church going through God's wrath in the trumpet and first six vial judgements. The reason I say this is that both Christ and Paul tell us that the day of our rescue will be the very day that Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. We are explicitly told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath, so the rapture must take place before the trumpet and vial judgements. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Concerning the sign of the Son of man and the coming of Christ, you are doing a similar thing to that which pre-tribbers do. They create two comings in an attempt to justify their erroneous rapture timing. The sign of the son of man is Christ's revelation in glory with the mighty angels for all the world to see. When you attempt to place an extended period of time between the sign and the rest of the passage you eliminate the reason that the great tribulation is over when the cosmic sign takes place. It is the cosmic sign which will signal Christ's coming at any moment. It is at that time He will deliver those who are alive and remain. It is this deliverance that ends the unprecedented persecution of the elect while allowing the Beast to continue for what is left of his 42 alloted months. The day of the Lord is the arrival and continuing presence of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. All of His eschatological wrath is executed during this period of time. Paul makes it clear, that it is the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. ... 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, The warning given in Rev 16:15 may be placed anywhere in the book to aid the readers of it. You are reading into the text if you say that the location of the warning means that Christ doesn't come as a thief until after the sixth vial is poured out. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Again, we do not set aside explicit truths to accommodate those things which are thought to be inferred by a text. Hallelujah
  22. Last Daze

    When Wrath Begins

    No, the elect don't suffer the wrath of God in a post trib rapture. Most will be martyred but those who reject and somehow evade the mark / image will be kept from the hour of testing per Revelation 3:10. The word of His perseverance is to reject the mark and image. The time of testing is the plagues. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 3:10 The "worship or die" ultimatum of the image will segregate the prepared believers from the ill-prepared believers. The prepared believers will love not their lives even unto death. The ill-prepared believers will be deceived by the signs and wonders and will face God's judgment of their idolatry, the plagues. The corrective discipline of the plagues is God's last call to repentance before He returns to destroy the wicked. Only those who persist in worshiping the image and utilizing the mark will receive of the plagues. When all who are going to repent have done so, the wrath of God which is contained in the bowls, is poured out. The plagues will segregate the repentant from the hard-hearted. No person who repents of their sin will experience the wrath of God, neither will anyone who initially rejects the mark and the image (although most will be martyred).
  23. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    The Last Day is the Seventh Day, which lasts 1000 years. You are presuming that the Lord can only come as a thief one time. But taking the Exodus as a type and shadow of future things, we see there that the Lord came suddenly in judgment at different times: to Egypt on the Passover, at Mount Sinai, at Korah's rebellion, and at Joshua's battle of the long day. Josh 10. Just as during the Exodus, the Lord will bring about his various judgments sequentially: first upon the elohim, then upon the elect (that is, who is and who ain't), and ultimately upon the heathen nations. According to your scenario, the elect in Christ must suffer through the period of the Wrath of God upon the earth. So the Lord's return will not be pre-wrath. Paul says differently in 1 Thes. 5:9: For God has not appointed us to wrath... That is why the elect of the Church are seen in heaven before the throne, clothed in white, "having come out of the great tribulation," right after the heavens are opened at the 6th Seal, before the 7th Seal is ever opened. Just as Moses and Joshua, the types and shadows of the End Time elect, were ascended up into the clouds upon Mount Sinai before God ever began his punishments of Israel, its priesthood, and the nations. Hebrews 12:18-28 says that the events at Mount Sinai presage the Latter Day events when the Lord will take up "the general assembly and church of the firstborn ... to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..." Then follows Rev. 8:1 ...He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. ... 6 And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. So the Elect are in heaven before God's Wrath via the Trumpets and Bowls ever commence. They are not appointed to the time of God's Wrath.
  24. JoeChan82

    When Wrath Begins

    I have never considered using the examples you provided as an argument for a sequential unfolding of the seals/trumpets/vials, but I love it. After all, it is the literal fulfillment of past prophecies that lends credence for the literal fulfillment of future prophecies. In like fashion the three holy convocations outlined in the Law with their respective feasts (eg. Passover/Feast of unleavened bread) surely have their past fulfillments in Christ as our Passover and First fruits/Feast of Weeks was fulfilled at Pentecost. When I look at the Fall feasts; tabernacles, trumpets, Day of Atonement, Jubilee etc. I see these as still future.
  25. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    One of my blog posts answers this question: The Three Earthquakes of Revelation Some people believe and teach that the the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation all take place concurrently. Others teach that only the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent, and are part of the Seventh Seal. There are many reasons why neither of these things is possible, when all of the other scriptures, particularly the Old Testament prophecies, are taken into account. I will mention just one item here: the three earthquakes of Revelation. As I show in the blog post The Exodus and the End Times, all the significant events of the Exodus were types and shadows of the Day of the LORD. Therefore, it is noteworthy that three different large earthquakes also took place during the Exodus era. Here are the Exodus-era types, and their Day of the LORD fulfillments: 1) The Exodus, at Mount Sinai: Thick darkness, earthquake, God’s trumpet/shofar sounding. The LORD descended upon Mount Sinai in clouds of smoke; most people cowered away from his Presence. But those who were ready went up into his Presence. Ex. 19:16f.; 20:18 1) 6th Seal: Thick darkness, earthquake, God’s trumpet/shofar sounding. Jesus descends in the clouds; most people are greatly afraid and hide themselves. But those who are ready go up into his Presence. Rev. 6:12-17; 1 Thes. 4:16; Matt. 24:29-30 2) During the Exodus sojourn in the wilderness: Moses and Aaron, after having prophesied and performed similar miracles as the Two Witnesses of Relation 11, were confronted and accused by Korah and others. The LORD then validated their ministry, killing thousands of their adversaries by earthquake, fire and plague. Num. 16; Ex. 7-10 2) 6th Trumpet, Priestly Section: The Two Witnesses prophesy, burn their enemies with fire, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. They are accused and attacked by the Beast and others. God publicly validates their ministry by raising them from the dead; an earthquake then kills thousands. Rev. 11:3-13 3) After the Exodus, in Canaan: Joshua – Yeshua – and the Israelites defeated the many armies gathered together against them on ‘the day the sun stood still.’ “[T]he earth trembled and shook” amidst a great storm (Jasher 89:15), and great hailstones fell from heaven. The Canaanite armies were routed and slaughtered, and their kings were captured alive and “cast into” a cave. Josh. 10 3) 7th Bowl: “[T]hunderings and lightnings…a mighty and great earthquake…great hail from heaven.” Jesus – Yeshua – and the armies of heaven descend to destroy the armies gathered together against them. The Beast and the False Prophet are captured alive, and “cast into” the lake of fire. Rev. 16:17-21; 19:11-21 All the events of the Exodus which foreshadow events of the End Times were sequential in time. There are no scriptures that prove the events of the End Times will not likewise be sequential. On the contrary, the three examples above show that each of these End Time earthquakes will take place under completely different circumstances. Addenda: For “those who dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14 (2); 14:6; 17:8), the Seals-Trumpets-Bowls, and likewise the three earthquakes, will occur separately and sequentially over time. But for the ones in the heavenly realms of Everywhen, the Seals-Trumpets-Bowls (and all other events of history) are eternally everywhen. This is the realm in which God dwells, and into which prophets visit during their visions of the future. Because all events – past-present-future – already exist there. (And don’t ask me to explain that!) In this one sense only are those correct who speak of the Trumpets and Bowls being simultaneous. But for “those who dwell upon the earth” in time, the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls will occur separately and sequentially over a period of many years.
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