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About This Club

A place to exchange viewpoints on the various end time prophecy subjects.

  1. What's new in this club
  2. WilliamL

    The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days

    I believe you are missing the point. The only time limitation -- 1260 days -- is mentioned in verse 5, which is speaking about the spokesman: Rev 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. The spokesman is fully under the authority of the Beast, is doing the work of the Beast, but is not the Beast itself. The spokesman is limited in time, just like all of the HUMAN kings of the north and south in Daniel 11. However, the SPIRIT-POWERS/kings of Daniel 11's north and south continued on functioning serially through human rulers, one human after another. These spiritual rulers are still here "at the time of the end," Daniel 11:40 tells us. Just as we are told in Daniel about the spiritual rulers of Greece, Persia, and Israel (Michael), who, we are told in Daniel 7:12 and 12:1, will also still be active in the last days. The little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man" (Dan. 7:8), something never said about any of the beasts of Daniel or Revelation.
  3. Steve_S

    The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days

    I would have to disagree with this. Rev 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Rev 13:6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We can make direct correlations here. Revelation 13:5 says he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, yes, however, Revelation 13:6 says "he opened His mouth." Then we are told that it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. If we look to Daniel 7, we can see a couple of things about the little horn. 1. He is speaking pompous words. 2. He is making war against the saints. Dan 7:8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words. Dan 7:21 "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, If the horn is the mouthpiece and not the beast himself then it's the mouthpiece that is making war against the saints and not the beast himself, but that's not what revelation 13 says. It says that he will open his mouth up and speak blasphemous words and will *also* make war against the saints, both of which are attributed directly to the little horn, meaning that the little horn must be him.
  4. WilliamL

    The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days

    Since I wrote my post, I have come to a very different understanding. For the long explanation, see my last two blog posts, The 1290 and 1335 Days of Daniel 12:11-12, and The 1260 Days. Each is about 3 pages long. I strongly recommend that those interested in this topic print them out and study them out. In brief, Daniel 12:11 has been mistranslated, leading to this common but incorrect understanding, which I held myself: That is the understanding that follows from the standard translation. Here is the correct translation, with explanation: Literal translation of Daniel 12:11-12 And from the time the daily/continual service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days. Blessed/happy is the one who earnestly waits, and comes/attains to 1335 days. “has been caused to be taken away”: Hophal Perfect 3ms of the verb סור [soor]. Hophal stems express causative action with a passive voice. Perfect tense means completed action (past, present, or future, here obviously being future). “and/even”: the Hebrew conjunction vav, ו. It usually is translated “and,” but also can mean “but, or, even, yet, when.” “to the”: ל This is the Hebrew preposition lamed, which means “to” or “for.” It has been omitted from the translations of nearly all versions of the Bible. Of the many versions I have consulted, it is found only in Youngʼs Literal Translation. Normally, this preposition would have a Shewa vowel pointing [ ְ ] underneath; but in this case it has a Qamats [ ָ ] underneath, which signifies that it includes within it the definite article “the,” the Hebrew letter ה . So this is to be read, “to the placing of an abomination of desolation…” “placing”: This is the correct translation of the Infinitive Construct of the verb root נתן [naw-than´], which means “to give, put, place.” An infinitive is a verbal noun, here being “placing.” The standard translation – “is set up” – distorts the meaning of the verb and the phrase. The addition of the preposition “to” significantly alters the understanding of the text. The standard translation is rather ambiguous about the relationship of the 1290 days to the two acts: 1) the ending of the daily religious ritual, and 2) the placing of an abomination of desolation. But the inclusion of the simple preposition “to” indicates that the first act begins the 1290 days, and the second act concludes the 1290 days: “from the time of the [removal] even to the abomination of desolation: 1290 days.” The literal translation indicates that the 1290 days precede the Abomination of Desolation. In contrast, the 1260 days until “the end of these wonders,” during which period “the hand [power] of the holy people [shall be] completely shattered/scattered,” does not begin until their flight into the wilderness, which occurs after the Abomination of Desolation. Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:15-16, 21 This is the common understanding, but I disagree with it. Rev. 13:5 tells us that the Beast "was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months." This mouth is the spokeman of the Beast, not the Beast itself. Just as Aaron was the "mouth" of Moses: Ex. 4:16 "So he shall be your spokesman to the people. And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God." Daniel 7's Little Horn is this human spokesman of the Beast, which spokesman is to only endure for 1260 days/3-1/2 times. But this spokesman is not the Beast itself, which is a far more powerful spirit. Daniel 7 makes that clear; Rev. 13 is not so clear, so most people miss it. The Little Horn is merely an appendage upon the head of the Beast; it therefore cannot be the Beast itself.
  5. Steve_S

    The Next Event

    No. For two reasons. Firstly, all of the first four seals seem to be worldwide in scope to one degree or another. I tend to think the second seal is probably going to be an indication of a multitude of conflicts. In other words, I think peace itself, the ability of nations to get along will basically be gone. The only "peace" that can be found will be after the rise to power of the anti-Christ and it will be false and fleeting. He is involved in several wars if Daniel 11:36 onward is in reference to him (which I believe it to be). Secondly, I think that at least Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 are prior to any of the seals being broken. It's possible (in my mind at least) that these two specific events may be the final harbingers that the end is upon us (the end in the context in which I speak being with reference to what would probably the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel becoming imminent). Some people make a pretty good argument that Psalm 83 was fulfilled in the Israeli war of Independence, the Six Day war, and/or the Yom Kippur war or combinations thereof. Some people also make pretty good arguments against that assertion. I'm torn on it personally. Ezekiel 38 has decidedly not happened yet, but it would seem like the major players in that prophecy (russia, iran, turkey) have already formed a tacit alliance against israel to at least a limited degree. This doesn't mean it's imminent, but it's interesting that the three main players from this are all physically operating in a country that sits opposite the highest mountain country in the land of Israel, which is basically the path of invasion through which they seem to come. Eze 39:4 You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Russian troops patrol the Israeli border in the Golan as we speak. Seeing that sort of thing happen (there are actual photographs), even if it does not have immediate significance, is the next nearest thing to surreal, particularly when you consider the fact that such a thing would not have seemed possible 10 years ago and would not have seemed at all likely even 5 years ago. The second verse of Ezekiel 39 seems to indicate that they will be "turned around" and brought up from the far north. I don't think it's entirely necessary or that it *must* be interpreted in this way, but if I see Russia attempt to pull out of syria and then have some "unexpected" reason in which they have to return in greater numbers, that is certainly going to raise my antennae.
  6. Last Daze

    The Next Event

    Do you correlate that to the second seal?
  7. Steve_S

    The Next Event

    Possibly Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38-39. The destruction of Damascus is possible. The destruction of Elam maybe?
  8. 3.5 = Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
  9. I think the beast of Revelation 13 and the little horn of Daniel 7 are the same person. I think the "prince who is to come" in Daniel 9:27 is him as well (the people of the prince who is to come were obviously the romans, as they were the ones who destroyed the temple in 70 A.D., so it's likely that the final world empire is some sort of revived roman empire). I think the "king" from Daniel 11:36 onward can also be identified as him (at the very least he cannot be identified as either a king of the north or a king of the south, because in the context of the chapter to that point the kings of the north and the south were the primary actors and he is attacked by both simultaneously). I have seen some fairly decent arguments that the king from Daniel 8:23-25 is a double reference regarding both Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) and the beast, but all I am certain with in regard to that is that it is *at least* referring to Antiochus IV. I think the abomination of desolation is delineated in 2 Thessalonians.2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. I tend to think that there is indeed a physical temple, because I believe Antiochus IV was a type of the future man of sin and the abomination he set up was in a physical temple. I also think there's further evidence of this in Revelation 11. Rev 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. John was told to measure the temple. I think that's a reasonable indication that it's physical. The biggest problem I have with the spiritualization of the temple with regards to this specific prophecy is that Christians are the Temple of God in the spiritual sense and if that is so, then the abomination would have to be set up by him in Christians, but that's the opposite of what we are told happens. 2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 2Th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The people who follow the man of sin/beast are those who did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Christians are not part of this category. This is confirmed in Revelation 13. Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The only ones who will not worship him are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb. This seems to exclude those who are faithful witnesses of Christ (most or whom seem to be martyred during this same period, v 13:7). Revelation may speak of more than one half a week. Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." It would seem that their entire ministry cannot overlap with the beast, because the beast is able to kill them and they are resurrected three and a half days later and ascend to heaven. Rev 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. Rev 11:13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rev 11:14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly. Their ascension and the ensuing events ends the second woe. There are still further judgments to come after this. If one does the math on it. If their ministry started at the same time as the anti-Christ's abomination and ran concurrent (42 months equals 1,260 days exactly), then he would have to kill them on the day of final battle and then they would be resurrected and ascend three and a half days *after* Christ's return. This doesn't seem possible. Not to mention the fact that several judgments remain after their death. So, it seems likely, at the very least, that their ministry begins at some point before the 42 month period of the anti-Christ's rule, possibly long before, possibly even at the beginning of the 70th week, though one cannot be dogmatic on that point.
  10. Steve_S

    The Abomination of Desolation

    I'd have to disagree with this, insofar as what Antiochus IV did was directly prophesied by Daniel in Chapter 11. Dan 11:31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. It was also called the abomination of desolation. You can follow the prophecy of Daniel 11 with what happened in World history from the point that it was written (under the reign of Darius the Mede, his first year, from Babylon) through about verse 35. After that point, the historical record ceases to match.
  11. Steve_S

    The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days

    I think a church or part of it was definitely mentioned in Daniel 7, though not explicitly and I do agree that the church itself was a mystery then yet revealed. However, looking at a specific passage in Daniel regarding the little horn, we see. Dan 7:21 "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. This of course, happens during the 70th week. Rev 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Rev 12:15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. There is a definitive remnant of Jews that the dragon cannot get at. These are likely the refugees that listen to Jesus' order to flee after the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24). The beast makes war against the saints, probably on behalf of the dragon. Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. Seeing as it's virtually certain that the little horn from Daniel 7 and the beast are the same person, that both make war against the saints, and that there is a preserved remnant of Israel that are protected from the dragon and the beast, it would seem that the saints mentioned here are believers and therefore the church (probably mostly gentile, but possibly including some jews who are Christians when this all begins and are not present in israel). I don't think there's enough information to be dogmatic on those two extended periods. We can be assured that the beast himself has power for only 42 months, which is 1,260 days using 30 day months, which I think is obviously appropriate. Rev 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. I would be hard pressed to believe that he doesn't have authority at the point of the abomination of desolation and it's probable that his "authority" starts from that point, which means that his authority will end 42 months later. We know exactly what happens to end his authority as well. Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. So it's reasonable to posit that the period from the abomination to destruction of the beast and his army is 42 months and that this period is directly equivalent to 1,260 days. Daniel 12 is pretty explicit in its language that there are 1,290 days after the abomination is set up. Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. So then we're left with some questions, or at least, i am. Does the abomination happen 75 days earlier than the midpoint? This would require reading "middle of the week" in Daniel 9:27 more ambiguous than exact, which isn't really a problem technically speaking. If you look at a 7 day week, you can call "wednesday" the middle, but the range of that "middle" would actually be 24 hours or 1/7 of the week. You could also be more specific and say "12 p.m. on wednesday," which would be the exact mid point. The language in Daniel just says middle, but it could theoretically mean either. Does the abomination of desolation happen at the exact midpoint of the week? This would require reading "middle of the week" in Daniel 9:27 as specifically exact down to the day, at least, if not the hour, which would then lead one to conclude that the 75 day period is not part of the 70th week at all, but is a period afterwards.
  12. The 1260 and 1290/1335 Days Dan. 11:45 And he [the King of the North] shall plant the tents of his pavilion between [the] seas at the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. 12:1 And at that time…there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time… Matt. 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place… 21 …then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time… The above passages describe the key events that lead to the Great Tribulation. The passages below describe the ensuing time period, that of the persecution against the Israelite peoples. (The Book of Daniel says nothing about the Church, which was a “mystery” yet to be revealed to both Israel and the angels. Rom. 16:25; Col. 1:26; 1 Pet. 1:12) Dan. 12:6 …How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders? 7 …[it shall be] for a time, times, and an half [= 3½ times/1260 days]; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished. … 11 And from the time [that] the daily/continual shall be taken away, and an abomination of desolation is set up, [there shall be] 1290 days. 12 Blessed [is] he who waits, and comes to the 1335 days. Dan. 7:25 And he [the Little Horn] shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they [the saints/holy people] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time [= 3½ times/1260 days]. Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto it [the Beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and authority was given unto him [the Mouth/spokesman] to continue forty [and] two months [= 3½ times/1260 days]. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, … 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them… So now to the question: we see above that the period of persecution of Israel shall be for 1260 days, but the period from the beginning of the Great Tribulation, commencing when the Abomination of Desolation is set up, shall be 1290 days until Israel is delivered. Or possibly 1335 days. 1290 – 1260 = 30 days. 1335 – 1260 = 75 days. Is not one of these periods, 30 or 75 days, therefore the length of the Great Tribulation, “immediately after” (Matt. 24:29) which the Lord descends to gather out His elect in the Rapture? For a different look at why I believe there will be a “short trib,” see my blog post Forty Days. (Read my blog! Know new praxis!)
  13. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    Answer: because the faithful of the Church have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, which the Israelites, being a soulish/psuchikos people, never were. 1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural/psuchikos man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually/pneumatikōs discerned. 1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural/psuchikos body; it is raised a spiritual/pneumatikos body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual/pneumatikos body. ... 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual/pneumatikos, but that which is natural/psuchikos; and afterward that which is spiritual/pneumatikos. Those who are in the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, will not undergo any part of God's wrath. (Satan's wrath, that is a different story!) This is the distinction between those of the Firstfruits and those of the Harvest -- which just happens to be the subject of my latest blog. (Shameless plug.) Those of a spiritual nature, that is, the elect of the Church, will ascend in the Rapture just prior to the Wrath of God. Those of both Israel and the non-elect of the Church, that is, believers who have not overcome their human nature/psuche, will not ascend, and will go through the Wrath. All will go through the GT. Read my blog for the details.
  14. Da Puppers

    When Wrath Begins

    A widely discussed scripture is "we have not been appointed to wrath...". And so the debate begins, "when does the wrath begin? " But the scriptures are plentiful concerning the times in which God poured out his wrath upon them, with "them" referring to the children of Israel. So how can we say that we will be removed from the outpouring of his wrath, when they were not? Under no circumstances did God ever destroy them all. A prime example would be when Moses interceded to God, for him not to destroy them all in his wrath. A proper definition of God's wrath would be that out is directed ONLY at the wicked. Is God incapable of deliverance of the righteous from his wrath, in a safe manner? What of this? *[[Ezr 8:22]] KJV* For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him. *[[Ezr 8:23]] KJV* So we fasted and besought our God for this: and he was intreated of us. Verse 23 seems to indicate that, in God's eyes, they had not misspoke. So when it says that we are not appointed to wrath, can we rightly conclude that that means we will be removed, via the rapture? Blessings The PuP P.s. I am not changing or even questioning my views concerning the timing of the rapture, just one of its motives for timing placement. If I am right on my thinking, this dispels the principle notion of a pretrib rapture because of wrath.
  15. WilliamL

    Climbing the Mountain

    The higher one climbs the mountain, the more one is able to see of the mountain. The vistas become greater; while, at the same time, the way becomes more and more limited. Which is to say, the more biblical prophecies one learns, the narrower the possibilities become for all of them to fit into one single eschatology. Over and over again we see people on online prophecy forums who have "the answer," based upon only a relatively few prophetic passages. Most of such folks get really upset when you introduce a prophecy they have never heard of before that contradicts their brilliant thesis. After 20 years of working online prophecy forums, I have become convinced that the only eschatological view that cannot be contravened by any biblical prophecy is the post-trib, pre-wrath, 6th Seal rapture. I've tried to destroy it by every test I and others can come up with, and it continually responds with sound explanations to overcome such tests. But ya'all keep trying, because each new test generally expands my understanding.
  16. Steve Conley

    When Wrath Begins

    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, thanks for your response. I have a question: If in Matt 24:15 Jesus is not referring to Daniel 9:27 than to what statement in Daniel is He referring to. Also in Daniel 9:27, where the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst of the heptad (seven years) providing ~ 3.5 years remaining in the week, there is a correlation to the seven mentions of such a period in the books of Daniel and Revelation. Let Jesus be praised.
  17. WilliamL

    The Abomination of Desolation

    This blog entry of mine describes the scene. Note the proper translation of 2 Thes. 2:4 -- "he sits as a god" is the proper Greek, not "God." Matthew 24:15-30; Daniel 11:40-12:2; 2 Thessalonians 2; Numbers 24:24 Let's put these closely related prophecies together: Matt 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place... 21 then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been... 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days...the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 ...and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Dan. 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the south shall attack him [the king of the north]; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind... [41-43 enter and occupy the Holy Land; subdue Egypt, Libya, and Cush (prob. = Sudan); but not subdue or occupy Edom, Moab, and Ammon (= the whole or parts of the modern countries of Jordan and Saudi Arabia) 44 But news from the east [towards Iraq and Iran] and the north [towards Russia and/or Turkey] shall trouble him... 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas at the glorious holy mountain; but he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, ...And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was... 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..." 2 Thes 2:1 ...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him... 3 that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the Son of Perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called a god or that is worshiped, so that he sits as a god in the naos/holy place/sanctuary of God, showing himself that he is a god. ... 8...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. Beginning at Daniel 11:40, we see IN THE END TIMES a king/potentate to the south of the Holy Land, which south is currently all Islamic, attacking somehow a ruler of the north, that is, one out of the historical Graeco-Roman culture. The northern ruler invades from north to south, enters and occupies (seemingly peacefully) Israel, and then forcefully invades Islamic Egypt, Libya, and southwards; but neither Jordan nor Saudi Arabia -- currently allies of America and Europe -- are troubled at all. This ruler returns to Israel and sets up his headquarters on the Temple Mount; then he comes to his end around the time of the Great Tribulation and subsequent resurrection of the dead. Now, if people can't see the fit between this passage, and what Jesus prophesied about the same period in the End Times, and what Paul prophesied about the Son of Perdition likewise setting himself up in the Holy Place on the Temple Mount, but being brought to his end at the Coming of the Lord ... then those people are else either really ignorant of the Scriptures, or else they refuse to see something that runs contrary to their beliefs about the sequence of events of the End Times. Everything described in the above passages describes a post-trib, but pre-wrath, Second Coming: the Abomination of Desolation is accomplished by the Son of Perdition/King of the North; immediately followed by the Great Tribulation; immediately followed by the Resurrection of the Dead at the Second Coming, concurrent with the demise of the Son of Perdition. At that point of the Second Coming, nothing at all concerning the post-Revelation 7 events that take place during the time of the Wrath of God are even hinted at (with the exception of a hint of a future invasion from out of the east). At the Second Coming, the Beast of Revelation 11, 13, 17 has not yet arrived. A prophecy of Balaam directly speaks about this same period right before the Second Coming: Dan. 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships... Num. 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast [lit. hand] of Kittim [lands northwest of the Middle East]... Dan. 11:40 and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many shall stumble/become weak-legged... Num. 24:24 ...and shall afflict Asshur/Assyria [the region covering parts of Syria, northern Iraq, and southern Turkey, all now in conflict], and shall afflict Eber [the Hebrews/Jews/Israel]... Dan. 11:45 ...but he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. Num. 24:24 ...and he also shall perish for ever. According to the Book of Jasher, which was written in the same era as this prophecy by Balaam, the Kittim were the tribe who became the Romans: Jasher 10:16 And the children of Kittim are the Romim who dwell in the valley of Canopia [Canopus] by the river Tibreu [Tiber]. Likewise, the "ships of Kittim" mentioned in Dan. 11:30, who came against Antichus IV Epiphanes in 168 B.C. and drove him out of Egypt, were Roman ships carrying a Roman envoy. This is why I believe the King of the North will be one of the Western powers -- those having a Graeco-Roman heritage -- and not Turkey. Antiochus IV Epiphanes was of the royal bloodline of the Syrian Seleucids, but he came from Rome (1 Macc. 1:10) at the time that he 'came in peaceably, and seized the kingdom by flatteries/slickness.' Dan. 11:21 He had been held hostage in Rome for 14 years beginning in his youth, and had become substantially Romanized. So he was the first King of the North to have the Graeco-Roman hybridization. Through his establishment of an "abomination of desolation" on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (Dan. 11:31), he became the preeminent type of the Latter Day Son of Perdition.
  18. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    Rev. 11:7 When they [the Two witnesses] finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. Rev. 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. ... 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” Rev. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of man [alt. man's number]: it's number is 666. The Beast will ascend from out of the Abyss, where fallen angels are. Jude 6; 2 Pet. 2:4; also Book of Enoch and other ancient sources. No scripture says men are there, or ever were. Just because The Beast "has man's number" does not make him a man. It may appear as a man [and that is doubtful], it may rule like a man, but it is not a man. More to the point, the demise of the Son of Perdition takes place when "the Lord will consume [him] with the breath of His mouth and destroy [him] with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thes 2:8 The context of 2 Thes. 1-2 is about the Second Coming of Christ for His Church. That is, it is pre-wrath. Whereas the demise of the Beast takes place at the very end of the whole period of God's Wrath. These are two different antichrists: one pre-wrath, the other post-trib, during-wrath. Just as the original Son of Perdition, Judas, came before and met his demise before the ascension of Christ and the resurrected dead; and then he was followed by "the ruler/archon of this world" after Christ and the dead ascended. John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11 Daniel 9:27, indeed the whole passage of 24-27, has no End Time terminology in it at all, because it does not describe the End Times. It perfectly describes the events of the first century A.D. ending in the 7-year Jewish War of 66-73.
  19. Da Puppers

    The Abomination of Desolation

    I hold to an untraditional view of what it is. Upfront, I will say it has nothing to do with 2 Thess 2 when the man of sin SITS in the temple shewing himself that he is God. According to Eze 8, we know what constitutes an abomination: *[[Eze 8:10]] KJV* So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about... *[[Eze 8:13]] KJV* He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. Antiochus E did not commit the AoD; but he set up an abomination of Zeus. Abomination to God, is the allowing the worship of other gods by his people, Israel. The future AoD has nothing to do with what A man does. It will be the collective act of the children of Israel. I used to think that it was simply the rebuilding of the temple. Claiming to worship God the Father, in absence of God the Son, is not what I would consider worshipping another God. The 40 years after the crucifixion, was never viewed as an abomination, otherwise God would not wait to destroy the temple. The future AoD will involve joint worship of another God on temple mount, whether it be Islam or not, (probably so) . But without a doubt, the temple will be rebuilt before the GT begins. Blessings The PuP
  20. I'm curious as to how others view the AoD. It seems to be the watershed event of the last days. I see the abomination as this: Who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 And the ensuing desolation as this: And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 12:15-17
  21. Brother Duke, I think it's a simple matter to identify the beast well before the A of D. He'll be the one who is the eighth and of the 7, with the deadly head wound that got healed. The A of D is not the identifier of the beast, rather it's the revealing of the true nature of the beast. I hate to say this because Matt 24 is for everyone but the A of D warning is for those in Judea as specified by Jesus. "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." Why? Because the wrath of the dragon is going to begin in Israel directed against the Jews, first. But again: Why? Isn't the revealing for everyone, not just Jews? Sure, but the Jews made a deal with the devil previous to this revealing when, "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" happened here: "Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:" This is an end of the age passage about the beast and the 2nd advent from Isaiah 28. The Jews know what they have done but are willingly blind to it because they believed the benefits outweighed the risk. Of course it will not stand as Isaiah goes on to explain. "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. 22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth." This 'overwhelming scourge' is the beast and the exceeding difficult trials upon the earth, beginning in Jerusalem. This is why Jesus spoke of the A of D coupled with the warning to those in Judea. It seems the inhabitants of Judea needed a special warning specifically for them as they will not allow themselves to see the beast with complete clarity, even though we who are watching can and will identify the beast from the start. The beast isn't going to be part of any world governing body. He will not be a slick orator, perfectly coiffed, dressed to the nines with genius level political savvy; he will not come to power through military might or popular vote, he will rise to power through the influence of the dragon by the healing of the mortal wound, to wit; "The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” If the beast rises to power through a world governing organization then why not say this in Rev 13? Or somewhere else in Rev? Or scripture? It's not going to happen that way. The beast receives power and authority directly from the dragon and the world is in awe of the beast because of the deadly head wound that was healed, not because he is Sec Gen of the UN. I think this is a hard thing for many people to grasp. It's been so long the memories have faded into the deepest blackness, but there was a time when real power interacted in the realms of men, that time is coming again. Gods will walk the earth again and most will worship this power. "The fatal wound had been healed. The whole world followed the beast." Simple and clear identifier, well before the A of D. Why do they ask, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” From the context there are three reasons: he was raised from the dead, and he has real power and authority. The world also worships the dragon. Can we see the dragon? Do we witness this being in physical form? I think so. Some speculation: How would we know the beast rises from the dead? I have heard reports of evangelists raising people from the dead. I don't disbelieve this but it can't be reliably verified. It's a real issue then to get the entire world to believe the beast was actually raised from the dead, or a deadly head wound healed. It's plausible the beast should be well known before this deadly wound occurs. What if this character is globally infamous? He commits some terrifying, brutal act that shocks the world and becomes a household name through social media. The act goes viral and everyone is disgusted and offended. In an evil parallel to the trial, conviction and execution of Jesus this man is caught and put on trial before the whole planet. Not a stretch if the depth of his infamy is truly shocking, we love to dwell in ambivalence. We then witness the execution gone viral and some days later we witness the dead man walking, again gone viral. So we will know well before the A of D. Here's an interesting quote by Graeme Wood in The New Republic: "the Bahraini cleric Turki al-Bin’ali, cites a saying attributed to Muhammad that predicts a total of twelve caliphs before the end of the world. Bin’ali considers only seven of the caliphs of history legitimate. That makes Baghdadi the eighth out of twelve..." https://newrepublic.com/article/119259/isis-history-islamic-states-new-caliphate-syria-and-iraq" If this guy is the 8th of 12, then he is also "the eighth and is of the seven". Ever heard anyone else described this way? Baghdadi has the same tribal lineage as the first seven, and he is just as bloodthirsty as the first iteration of Islam when they demanded conversion on pain of death. This is really the truth behind the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay from the statue in Dan 2, Islam. Bin'ali is now dead, killed in a coalition attack by a smart bomb. But Baghdadi is not dead yet. On the run, heard he was wounded. The Iraqi army wants him captured and is hot on his trail. I'll be keeping close watch as always.
  22. Diaste

    When Wrath Begins

    Hey Steve, I agree here. "Behold I come as a thief..." can be understood as a declaration of an attribute or physical location in time and space. 'Erchomai' does not only suggest coming from one place to another if the context does not so indicate. "I am here." "I have arrived." are both valid definitions of 'erchomai' depending on the context. In other words, Jesus 'has arrived' and is present and is in full control of the retaking of creation. And just because the wrath of the Lamb is in full burn does not mean that mankind is now static. Some are from what we read in Rev 6, hiding in the caves, etc. however we cannot be dogmatic about the actions of mankind as immobilized. The armies are on the march during the time of wrath, that is clear. What's to say that the rest of mankind left after the gathering is not filled with hate for Jesus and marshals their forces to march on the Mount of Olives and destroy the one who is plaguing them, joining with the armies already surrounding Jerusalem? I think this is exactly what will happen. Jesus is here, on earth, at the Mount of Olives, astride the valley to where the Jews fled for protection in the day when God will fight for them, per Zechariah, striking the earth and infuriating the rebellious to the point of retaliation. They march on to Israel to defeat the Lord and meet their destiny in the Valley of Jehoshaphat. I'm a big movie guy. I especially like to watch Sci-Fi. A theme that plays out over and over in the movies is what is described above. Some 'invader' from the skies is destroying the planet and mankind, and while enduring widespread destruction and physical hardship the collective forces of man coalesce to defeat this 'invader'. It's like they took the plot right out of Revelation.
  23. Steve Conley

    When Wrath Begins

    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, WilliamL, you are correct that "The elect/chosen of the church ascend at the 6th Seal, and are seen in Rev. 7 "having come out of the great tribulation," verse 14." You are also correct that the 144,000 remain upon the earth, having received the seal of God in their foreheads. The seal guarantees their protection from the salvo's of God's wrath as seen in Rev 9:4. However, nothing is said about the 144,000 leading anyone, rather they follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Concerning the worship of the Beast. Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. The Beast is the man that receives the worship (it is the number of a man). The one being revealed in the temple is the one receiving the worship, he exalts himself above all that is worshipped. 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this associates the abominations which make desolate with the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Hallelujah
  24. WilliamL

    When Wrath Begins

    Yes, the earthly saints. Daniel is written to Daniel about Daniel's people Israel, never the church. The elect/chosen of the church ascend at the 6th Seal, and are seen in Rev. 7 "having come out of the great tribulation," verse 14. The only saints remaining upon the earth at that time are the saints of Israel, being led by the 144,000 Israelites "on the earth." Rev. 7:1 These are the saints that the Beast makes war against. God's judgments take place in order: first the elohim, then the church, then Israel, then the nations. The period of the Seals is the trial/testing of the church. The Trumpets are the trial of Israel. The Bowls are the time of the nations. Exactly the same sequence of judgments that took place at the Exodus. Nothing in the scriptures says any such thing: you have rationalized this without two witnesses that say so.
  25. Da Puppers

    Identifying the man of sin and the beast

    2 Thess 2:8 makes the point that "the brightness of [Jesus'] his coming" will destroy the man of sin. The brightness of his coming/ parousia IS the rapture, which takes place [near] 3.5 years before the 2nd advent. John makes the point that when Jesus comes at the time of Armageddon, that BOTH the beast and the false prophet are cast into the ladle of fire. This shows that neither one were destroyed at any time prior, which includes the rapture. So what does Paul mean when he says that the rapture will destroy the man of sin, if it is not simultaneous with his coming? It is the point about his brightness that will destroy him. The revelation of the glory of the Father, will be what manifests the deeds of the man of sin as unmistakably evil and wicked. The brightness of his coming will manifest, it will reveal, the full glory of God. But until then: *[[1Ti 3:16]] KJV* And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Until the brightness of his coming in the rapture takes place, the world, in totu, does not know the righteousness of God, that sits currently at the FATHERS right hand. The manifestation of that glory will be the undoing of the kingdom of darkness. All of those that love the light will come to the light when faced with the sword of denial and darkness. *[[1Co 4:5]] KJV* Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. Blessings The PuP
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