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    • Blessings 1Jack      Welcome to Worthy.....nice to meet you and glad you have come to join us.....Praise Jesus! Your question is difficult to understand because we don't even know what the "elect" means to you,are you a Christian ?Perhaps you are talking about Salvation,chosen by God? This is the Outer Court,this Q&A Forum is for those seeking the Lord ,the place where unBelievers could ask questions about our Faith,,,,,are you a Seeker? We would love to talk with you so a little more information would help tremendously...........                                    With love-in Christ,Kwik
    • So, the onus of proof rests with the one who is using the term as it has been used and understood historically, how can that be right? However, rather then passing the buck I am quite happy to take up the challenge my friend In regards to Romans 2:9-11 well let's look at it together, in the context of what I have written in my previous post, ...tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. What is Paul saying here? Paul begins by saying tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, that is easy to understand. God will punish evil doers (this is a restatement of the topic introduced in v8) Paul then continues of the Jew first and also of the Greek,  this phrase is the qualification of the claim just made, by that I mean it sets the limits on the term 'every', hence Paul is referring to all Jews and all Greeks (gentiles) who do evil. v10 does the same,  this time with reference to those who do good, again Paul is qualifying the term 'everyone' he makes it plain that he means both Jews and Greeks (gentiles). Paul is continuing the phraseology he introduced early in this letter (Jews and gentiles) as a reference to whole of humanity without distinction. There is nothing in these phrases that demands we take the term 'jew' to refer to anything other then 'judean' (which is what the term means as we have seen from BDAG) other then your apparent inference  that Paul must be including the 10 northern tribes in the term Jew, because presumably you don't perceive that he could possibly be including them in the term Greek (Gentile), the problem is that your argument seems to be all inference and perception rather then actually exegeting the text and explaining why, in your understanding, the term 'Jew' in inclusive of all 12 tribes.  In my previous post I used scripture to demonstrate that the term 'Israel' can refer to 'Judah', but there is no example of 'Judah', 'Judean' or 'Jew' been used definitively to refer to all of Israel.  Now, what I am very interested in is why the vested interested in 'jew' being a reference to all 12 tribes - what is the underlying presupposition that makes this a theological and exegetical necessity  in your interpretive framework, after all my question was originally fairly casual    
    • Interesting that you post from BDAG a lexical entry that supports exactly what I am saying - Jew means judean.  As for the playing 'the lexicon game' as you refer to it, well my friend words have meanings, and therefore we want to understand what someone is saying we need to understand what the words they use mean - I now this is an unpopular idea in post post modernism where people attach what ever meaning they wish to words, but certainly when Paul was writing that was not the case The onus of proof still rests with those who wish to redefine the meaning of the term 'Jew'  As for the context of Romans 2 please enlarge upon it and exegetic the passage to show how Paul is using the term 'Jew' to refer to people from all 12 tribes rather then those that dwelt in Judea? It is very easy to assert something is the case, but it is necessary to demonstrate it if you wish to convince any except those who already agree with you.  Consider for example, v17, Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,  clearly the 'Jews' Paul is referring to are those who rest on the law,  in his day the northern tribes had become a mixed bread known as the Samaritans (others had mingled with other peoples further away) and they were not resting on the law. They had built their own temple on their own mountain.    Or maybe you have in mind, v28-29  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Please explain how you arrive at the conclusion that Paul's meaning here is 'Israelite'? Why didn't Paul use the word Ἰσραηλίτης it is quite clear from its later occurrences in the book of Romans that Paul is familiar with it. Indeed as we examine the larger context of Paul's letter to the Romans in is interesting to note that in before chapter 9 there is no reference to "Israel'  and after chapter 10 there is no reference to 'jew' - the only place of overlap is in chapter 10 where Paul uses the term 'Israel' three times (v1; 19; 21) and 'Jew' once  (v12).  V12 is clearly a repetition of his previously terminology that he has been employing, that we see from 1:16 is being used to refer to all people without distinction. So lets consider what Paul says about Israel, and we will start at the end and work backwards.  Romans 10:21 But to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people." here Paul tells us that God was addressing Israel through the prophet Isaiah - he quotes Is 65:2. To whom did Isaiah prophecy?  He prophesied between 739bc and 686bc (during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and hezekiah) to Judah Is 1:1. Assyria has already overrun the northern tribes by this time, and whilst Isaiah does not ignore what has happened to them he does not address them directly. so here Paul is using the term Israel to refer to the people who inhabit the land of Judah.  Romans 10:19  But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: "I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation1." this is a quote from Deut 32:31 which was addressed to the whole nation of Israel. What is interesting to note is the progression, in this verse he refers to Israel not knowing, then in v21  he continues to add support to that argument by quoting something said to Judeans. It seems to me that Paul is using the term Israel to refer to the nation that any given time can be identified as God's people (clearly there is semantic latitude in this as we see in 9:6) so when Paul says in 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel1 is that they may be saved. It is best understood as a simple reference to his countrymen - Paul desire his people will be saved.  Now, it might also be pertinent to consider the letter to the Hebrews, some suggest Pauline authorship, but even amongst those who don't most agree that it came from someone heavily influenced by Paul, some suggest Luke, in Hebrews 8:8 we read Hebrews 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Again this is an old testament quote (Jer 31). Again this suggests that Paul was familiar with the distinction between the northern and southern tribes, and whilst that passages does go to refer to them collectively as the 'Israel' they are never referred to collectively as Judah or Jews.    
    • In what way?  4004+2016+1(for year 0) = 6021
    • What are you talking about?   Not really sure what you mean.
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