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    • again, it is not about everyone are perfect and no one sin but about having a system of accountability to ensure genuine repentance and what to do if one refuse to show any it is like every country need to have laws to make sure the society in that country is a livable place for EVERYONE can you imagine living a society where there are no laws, no police, and everyone can just follow their sinful nature do whatever they pleases? it is about asking ourselves what part do we play in contributing to a better church? like I have mentioned above, are we silent bystanders when we see bullying at church? do we allow ourselves to be the perfect medium for slanderers and talebearers at church to pass on their slander and evil reports?
    • Amen! though I just want to point out that when WE DO SIN, we need to repent. and it is not about just feeling bad a little bit and make no change. Genuine repentance, in mine opinion, involves at least four steps step 1 take full responsibility for one's own behavior, in another word, when it comes down to it, we all have free will step 2 to give the person one have hurt a straight apology as in " I am sorry, I take full responsibility for mine behavior" step 3 take actual steps in making a change, including prayers, and others practical measures step 4 only if one have taken the above 3 steps, then one can say " I am not perfect, I do stumbles at times, please understand" if a Christian simply skipped the first three steps and went to the fourth one, than that is not repentance, that is cope out, which is the kind behavior a coward with no integrity does.... same applies to other Christians, no one perfect, but there should still be accountability. I remember I knew this young man once, he used his authority as the leader of the youth group to settle personal scores. and everyone were like " oh, he is not perfect, no one is perfect" but that was not the point, the point is he still had free will, he still need to be hold accountable for how he uses his power I can understand when he did it the first time, it may be legitimate in showing him leniency i also think support should be given him in terms of prayers or even counseling but to keep allow him to do whatever he wants by using the argument no one is perfect was just downright nasty! anyway, God eventually had to step in Himself and remove this young man and you would think after that, those who are involved in power at that church would have learnt their lesson but I don't think so. the wonders of no immediate consequences.....   a any   i sl     but an
    • Wow~!
      Brother I Guess
      Your Barber Must Be So Proud Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:27-28 (King James Bible) Of Your Hairdo For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

      To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

      Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:23-28 (King James Bible) ~ Beloved Have You Ever Considered The Goats
      And The Sheep.... When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

      Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34 (King James Bible) Love, Your Brother Joe ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
      The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
      The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible) Love, Your Brother Joe ~ All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. Psalms 119:160 (New International Version) The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents. From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament
    • I think it is true we will never find a perfect church but I think instead of telling people who are hurt by their church to get over it we should ask ourselves what it is that we are doing that either contribute to making our church a better place or a worse place it is not about what everyone else is doing, but each of us doing our own part. One thing we need to remember is people who are hurt by church are more likely to be those who are easily marginalized..... those who struggles to make friends and hence are easy target for example.... that is why we need to be careful to use our own experiences to invalidate others negative experiences you have to remember if you are outgoing, have a lot of friends at church ( hence social capital), you WILL BE treated BETTER than the guy who is socially awkward and doesn't have a good careers going for him.... so just coming back to doing our part ask yourself, when you see someone bullied in Church, what did you do? did you contribute to it by being a silent bystander? or worse still, did you chose to say nothing because the person who is acting as a bully is your close friend, or did you favor in the past? when someone came to you with a evil report about someone else, do you think to yourself " there are two sides to every story, but more important, I WILL NOT BE A PARTICIPANT in slander"? Remember the story of Priest Eli from OT, remember what happened when he showed nepotism towards his own sons instead doing is right by God, by the truth? Alternatively, when you had difference with somebody, did you chose to go around the church and be a tale bearer? more importantly , do you pay attention to those who are feeling a bit left out at church, and try to be friend them a bit? Church is not a perfect place, but that is not the point the point is, are WE doing our part?      
    • Hi Sis. You're not doing my head in, no worries. I am enjoying this discussion. There were ten horns that grew from the 4th beast, right? Most historians agree that there were ten Barbarian tribes that invaded the territories vacated by Rome from the 4th to the 5th centuries. They were very confusing times, and for decades there was no way to fix any boundaries or national distinctions, such was Europe in those hectic and turbulent times...a state of flux. Historians do settle though on a date that the western empire as far as pagan empirical Rome is concerned, came to a close. 476AD. At that time, there were 10 kingdoms prior to the 3 horns being uprooted. Among those 10 were the Anglo-Saxons who had settled Britain, though the Celts remained strongly independent in Ireland and Scotland. Thus Great Britain was one of the ten...they could not be the little horn which was separate, and independent of the ten. The little horn was the eleventh rose up after 476, and witnessed, even assisted, in the uprooting of the 3 nations/tribes which today can be found no trace...the Ostrogoths, the Heruli, and the Vandals. One more point. Prophecy in the OT centered upon national Israel. Not because they were a nation, but because of those faithful few within that nation  who were but a remnant and were fulfilling God's purpose.  Israel was Satan's most hated entity, the single most despised people because it was from Israel that the promised Messiah would come who Satan knew would in some way defeat him. It was Satan's sole purpose in his warfare against Israel to hinder, even stop if possible, the coming of the Messiah. He knew prophecy as well as any Pharisee. That is why he focused his attentions upon Israel, even more specifically the house of David. He failed. When Jesus finally was born in Bethlehem, Satan was there. He knew. He couldn't do anything personally, but he tried by instigating Herod to attempt to murder Jesus while still an infant. He failed there too. Then throughout Jesus' life, Satan did all he could to dissuade, tempt, challenge, anything he could think of that would induce Jesus to either give up, get impatient, use His powers for selfish purposes, lash out and avenge His honor, anything that would incite Jesus to sin. He failed in that as well. Praise God!! So what does the scripture tell us of Satan's warfare after Jesus returned to heaven to intercede on behalf of His people? Who was Satan's target then? Who was it that was the apple of God's eye? Who is it that today is heavens focus?  Who is it that Jesus is mediating for? Israel? No. No! The church is now the focus of all heavens attention, and so is it the focus of Satan's attacks and hatred. Read the following very carefully. Ask yourself, who is this about? Who is the woman who was being protected by God in the wilderness?
        Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
      10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
      11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
      12 ¶  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
      13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
      14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
      15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
      16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
      17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
      In Revelation 14:12 we see this description repeated.....  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. This remnant people are set in distinction to those who accept the mark of the beast. A remnant of whose seed? The woman. Who is the woman in NT prophecy ? Who is the bride of Christ? Who is the 'chaste virgin ' being now prepared for her Husband?  Who is Jesus coming back for and is thus the prime target of all of Satan's attacks?  Israel? No! It is true that various nations/kingdoms are mentioned in prophecy, but not for their own sake, but because they would prove to be a threat to God's people. That is why the Chinese dynasties, though great, are not mentioned. Same for the great Central and South American nations of the Mayan and Aztec peoples. But Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome are mentioned, described, and prophesied of because they directly affected the people of God. And in the NT, be honest Sister, what specific entity from history was it that proved to be the single greatest threat against the people of God, and which grew from among the ten horns after 476 AD?  There can be only one answer. It is the very power that helped uproot the three tribes...the very power that still calls its leader by the same title as the Caesars, (pontifex maximus).... the very same that inherited and received its civil power from the 4th beast, pagan Rome thus becoming a church state union and rightly designated a kingdom....and the very same power that would speak great words against the Most High and persecute the saints of the Most High...yes, the RCC was the true church's most bitter enemy for over 1000 years, and as prophecy indicates, will still be there right up to the second coming. The OT prophecies centered on literal kingdoms. NT prophecies center and focus on spiritual kingdoms. In the OT, literal Babylon and literal Israel In the NT spiritual Babylon and spiritual Israel.
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