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Well, I hope that I'm putting this in the correct forum for discussion... It seems to me that whenever the debate over Eternal vs. Conditional Security of the believer comes up, that many approach the issue from either a Calvinistic or Arminian viewpoint...and I personally don't think that either view is totally correct. So then, I'd like to submit a different viewpoint for discussion and evaluation...based on the OT law of the bondservant (or bondslave as it is sometimes translated); as I have found that the OT foreshadows the NT and the NT illuminates the OT. The law of the bondservant is found in two places in the OT: Exodus and Deuteronomy, and reads as follows: “Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them: If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. Exodus 21:1-6 (Emphasis mine) And if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. Deut 15:16-17 (Emphasis mine) Obviously, when one became a Bondservant it was for life. Even if later on down the line he/she decided that they perhaps wanted to be free...it couldn't happen. Also there is no provision anywhere for the selling of a bondservant. Twice it is said that the bondservant would serve his/her master forever, and this implies a two-way obligation. Now I think that we can agree that man has a free will to make moral choices, and that God desires that none perish but that all come to repentance. This then is what I submit for consideration: When one responds to the Gospel, and is truly born-again, then one has in essence taken the role of the bondservant. That is to say that having our "ear pierced with the awl" as it were, we can not later "give up" or "walk away from" the salvation that has been given us, nor will God "sell" us back into Satan's clutches. The scripture (I think) supports this view in quite a few passages, a couple of which follow: Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (Emphasis mine) Here for example, ownership by God over the believer is firmly established. 1 Corinthians 7:22-24 echos this sentiment. Philippians 1:6 tells us: being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ... Obviously if salvation can somehow be "lost" then how can Christ complete His good work in us? Again: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14 (Emphasis mine) It is interesting to me that the Apostles refer to themselves as doulos (pl. douloi) variously translated as: servant, bondservant, or slave. What is striking is that of the five Greek words for "slave" or "servant", doulos is the most abject form of slavery. Dr. Richard Trench in his Synonyms of the New Testament (9th ed.) defines "doulos" thusly: "One that is in a permanent relation of servitude to another, his will altogether swallowed up in the will of the other..." So then, to recap briefly...We respond to the Gospel at the leading of the Holy Spirit by an act of will on our part (for as "free agents" we can either accept or reject the offer of salvation), and having responded we enter into a permanent and positional relationship with God through His Son; and that relationship can not be broken by either party. What sayest thou?

because they don't bow over and agree with everything Obama says-anyone who disagrees, must be racist, right? lol. No, your right both parties have their weaknesses, and in all honesty, republicans have a habit of demonizing democrats to-think about it, republicans are all racists, and democrats are all socialists and commies. Our whole political system isn't vote me because im the better qualified-its vote for me because theyre a bunch of evildoers that are out to destroy america.

That's a good question! Although I was using the picture of the Bondservant as an argument for the eternal security of the believer, I'll try to give my understanding as to how these tie in together. In our western way of thinking, these two concepts (bondslave vs adoption) seem at first glance to be mutually exclusive but to the 1st century Jew they were not mutually exclusive concepts. To illustrate: Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit writes in 1 Corinthians to the effect that (paraphrasing here) "we are not our own, but were bought at a price". Again Paul writes that we are sealed "unto redemption of the purchased possession". But as you pointed out, Paul writes again under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that we are children of God and heirs with Christ...even after he (Paul) identifies himself in Romans 1:1 thusly: Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle...and of course the word translated as "bondservant" is doulos. Obviously, if these two are not in accord one with the other, then we have a contradiction...but as we both know the bible does not contradict itself. I think that the answer or shall I say the precept may be found in the book of Galatians 3:26-4:7 where he writes: For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Here in this passage, if we just read over it quickly, it seems that on one hand Paul is saying that on one hand we are no different from slaves (blue portion), and then that we aren't slaves (green portion). Both are correct...we still live in these bodies on this earth, and as such we have not yet come into our inheritance, but in Christ we are no longer slaves to the elements of the world but are indeed sons. I'll have to get back to this later, as I have an appointment...but it's some food for thought.

Again, because money is a "thing" not a "living thing." ​Jesus used money. The apostles used money. Money in and of itself is not evil or wrong. It's what you do with it. You can use it to fund an orphanage, or pay someone to kill somebody. Either way, it's the actions of the person using the money that is good or evil. I agree money is benign and ammoral. It's what is done with money that is either good or evil.

I beleive that salvation is a gift, just as you said. It is certainly obvious, that salvation is not by works. Since the gifts and calling of God are not taken back (Romans 11), and since when you are saved, it is not only a done deal, but you were chosen long before you were born, how can we imagine that God can unchoose you, or that you can work your way out of what you cound never work your way into. Will God take away a gift? A gift, is yours to keep. We have doubts, because we see people who seem to accept Jesus, walk the walk for a while, and then turn there back on Him, so we assume they lost their salvation. More likely, they naver had salvation to begin with. God knows the heart, only He knows who He chose, who are really saved. We can be well intended, but slef deceived. Tares, can be perfect imitations of Christians, in some cases can appear 'more saved' that the saved do. Some verses to think about: 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ 5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. 12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work forHis good pleasure. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? When I put all of these in my mind, what I concluded is that We are chosen by God, not becuase of anything we did No one (not even us) can snatch us from the Father Hand God is faithful, and does not repent of His gift of Salvation Works do not save, but saved persons perform works Salvation is not something we assume presumptuously, but soberly and fearfully we judge ourselves, examine ourselves, and live righteously as He enables us, less we be self deceived with false security I do not beleive that we can give up our salvation. If we can be saved by God, in spite of our degenerate selves, how are we going to turn our back on Him, once we have been indwelt by the Spirit, regenerated and have the mind of Christ. That suggests that the flesh is stronger than the Spirit in us, that we are mighty enough to overpower the God from whom, no one can snatch his own from, and thatwith the mind of Christ, we would reject Him, when without that mind we accepted Him. I find that unbeleivable. People keep wanting to claim control and have something to do with their own salvation, like all the pagan religions claim. The unique thing about our faith, is it is God who does all the work, and we are not powerful enough to undo the will of God.

It certainly isn't shortened, if anything it's lengthened. 11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. It's obvious that the great tribulation is shortened based on what Jesus says in Matthew 24, which has been covered here. The 1290 vs. 1335 day period in the second half of the 70th week has had me pondering for a bit. But there is "tribulation for the full seven years (70th week of Daniel). The tribulation for the "tribulation saints', first half. And tribulation for the nation of Israel during the second half. Then there is tribulation upon the whole world during the second half in which the S, T, and B Judgments occur. Steve Think of the extra 30 days as the length of the Battle of Armageddon, and the extra 45 days for the time it takes for the birds of the air to eat the flesh of men and horses at Armageddon. The 70 weeks cannot be shortened (It is Prophecy) But the days are shortened in Rev 8:12. Say a 12 hour day is shortened to an 8 hour day. 1/3 less light. In Christ Montana Marv

I do not believe that they will start until after the Rapture and that is still in the future.That is my belief and I am sure others here have their own interpretation.I also think that our final end times have begun so I am looking forward to the soon rapture.

The Bible makes it very clear 144,000 are Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel. They are a cult plain and simple and a very dangerous cult. They do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, in fact they believe that Jesus is really the Arch Angle Michael. They also believe the 144.000 are the only ones that will be in Heaven, I really don't see how they can miss these people are Jews when in scripture the 12 tribes are listed. Don't listen to her and don't argue. You just say I"m sorry I do not believe what you do, and go on your way. Reminder her of the scripture "Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life, no man come to the Father but by Me." You will find too that their translation of the scriptures called I believe "The World Wide Translation " has a lot of thing taken out and some things added to support their beliefs. You don't have to know much about these people to know that scripturally you cannot back anything up they say. Then you can reminder her of the last verse in Revelation about adding to and taking from scripture. So stay planted where you are, firm in the word of God.

I agree, don't take her on in debate if you are not fully prepared.She will have been trained in stock answers and you will have no recourse. Debating a JW is fraught with danger if you don't know your bible too well.

In the above statement Our Lord teaches us that within riches lie deceit... then anyone with riches also has deceit-> for that is with them by fulfillment of God's Word! As seen the man that came to Him and said: Mk 10:18-21 18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'" 20 And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." 21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." NKJV Here The Lord loved him because the indication is the man was trying to obey Christ Word! YET the deceitfulness within riches is seen: He had labored and worked and sacrificed to have them and when offered eternal non-ending wealth for trade of his earthly gain he declined... That is why the Lord warns us to beware when we think we stand lest we fall... it is why in humility I prefer to give my gain away so I am not deceived and my heart is upon His Promises rather than the things of this life! Love, Steven Steven, my brother, this type of thinking, Is why I started this thread and I disagree with you, from what I have read in the word. Lets start with a list of wealthy Biblical Hero's who were not stumbled by their wealth. Abraham Isaac Jacob Joseph Job David Joseph of Arimathea, (who paid for Jesus' burial) And last but not least, the good Samaritan, who while apparently not a real person but an example given by Jesus, is wealthy enough to pay for every need the poor beaten man needed. As for the rich young ruler, well his wealth was only a part of his issues, and I suggest you read "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who elaborates the story much better than I can. Remember that the wealth owned him, not the other way around. So yes, riches can be a trap, and we must guard our heart with all diligence as the word says, however riches in and of themselves are not evil or bad. Now I am going to propose one thing that will perhaps shock. I believe that not enough christians are wealthy The wealthy have power on this earth to cause great good and great evil, so why should christians who, by definition should be Christ like, and good, be poor, or just making it bye while letting evil people have all the resources to do evil? The trick is to remember this very important thing. We do not own anything. God does. He gives us our life and many good things, and he wants the best for us. If we are responsible, with money that he gives us, he may give us more, But it is money to manage, not to own ourselves, See the example of the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. The servants were given wealth to manage for the Lord, and when they managed well they were given more to manage. I believe we are servants of the Lord, and I believe that many of us do not manage the little money the Lord has given us to start. When we get better at managing the money we have to start I believe that the Lord will give us more to manage. I personally do hope to be wealthy enough to be able to fund as many missionaries as I can. I would love to be able to hear of a ministry that needs a new building and just be able to pay for the whole thing. Again the Lord says he is the one who gives us the ability to create wealth but not to forget HIm in the process.