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I think in this statement presupposes that Christ (and the people of the day) thought of Adam as a historical figure. If Christ, Paul, etc. thought of Adam as allegorical and this was a common understanding, there would be no need to say "Adam, the allegorical first man" in the passages as it would be assumed. What if contemporary thought is found in the writings of contemporary Philo or early Christians who held to an allegorical interpretation of Genesis? I think the root of the problem with the arguments presented against the allegorical view are as follows. (1) They assume Christ viewed Adam as literal when contemporary Jews and early Christians hold the allegorical view. (2) They assume that literal interpretation is the only consistent way to maintain biblical inerrancy when inerrancy simply means that the Bible exists without error in the original language and manner in which it was written. If a particular passage was written in an allegorical manner it could still be inerrant. These arguments against the allegorical interpretation assume that Genesis was intended as literal before arguing that Genesis is literal. This is simply fallacious as it begs the question (assumes the conclusion in the premises).

I don't know what more we can ask than for ANYONE, regardless of their particular temptations, to repent of their sins, and to pray for their desires and actions and beliefs to come in line with His. adding my little soul to this one

I think you guys are missing the point. Bary thinks like a scientist, which he is. He used scientific, deductive reasoning to come to faith in Christ, accepting Him as a historical figure who died for the sins of the world, and then received Him as his personal Savior and Lord. He stated that it is very hard to use that same line of deductive scientific reasoning to arrive at believing the historic nature of Adam and Eve due to the lack of other historians confirming the occurance as we have with Jesus. He cannot yet see that Jesus' quoting from Genesis makes this a purely historic account, but he difinitely believes that He used it, and that it has theological bearing on the sin of mankind and our need for a Savior. Is that right, Bary? Now, we have to understand how Bary's mind works. He pretty much approaches life as though it is all a scientific therom that can be proven with scientific equasions. We may think that is unreasonable, but Bary doesn't. So Bary has put Adam and Eve in the category of unable to prove due to insufficient data. That doesn't mean that he doesn't believe it is litteral or that he does. He just doesn't think he has enough data in hand to to prove it using scientific deduction. To understand a dog, you have to think like a dog. To understand a woman, you have to think the way women think. But to understand Bary, you have to think like a scientist.

Yes, it does seem that the subject gets rather emotive and personal, almost as if some will personally lose something if their particular opinion is not upheld, so they must "post to the death". I usually try to avoid this discussion. And yes, I personally do lose something. For me, replacement theology negates the promises of God. If replacement theology were true, then God would be a liar as His promises to the Jewish people were not real. God could change His mind or could make statements to people He never really meant to uphold. .

I will not share it, as it promotes homosexuality. Christians should be standing against this, not supporting it. Shiloh, did you even READ the article? The article does not promote homosexuality. ???

The New Israel The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Ezekiel 37:1-11 IS The Old Israel, Resurrected Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. Ezekiel 37:12-14 And Evil Men Will Still Teach Jesus Won't And Can't Save His Beloved For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zechariah 2:8-10 How About That~!

Presumably Israelis are only grafted back in through faith in Christ? Just like everyone else. And together we become the New Israel. Outside of Christ we are of course separate, except in the sense of being human beings in need of the Saviour. In scripture, Jacob was renamed Israel. He had 12 children who are called the children of Israel. God promised land to the children of Israel which is called the land of Israel. Israeli is a modern term referring to all citizens of the country of Israel. There are Arab and Egyptian Muslim citizens of the country of Israel, who are Israelis. Those who believe in Jesus are never called sons of Jacob/Israel. Only physical descendents of Jacob/Israel are called sons/children of Israel in scripture. Believers in Jesus are called sons of Abraham by faith, or sons of God but are never called sons of Israel. In the parable about the olive tree, Israel is branches, not the tree. Some of the Israel branches are cut off for now, and some are in the tree. Also, wild olive branches are grafted in, but not into the Israel branches. If the wild olive branches are grafted into Israel branches, they would be grafted into branches which are cut off from the tree.

I wouldn't recommend believing all the negativity about the church in the lame stream media. Their job, as they see it, is to push the party line which does not include God. Therefore they will happily report whatever negative survey results that come out. The church (aka Body of Christ) is flourishing in many parts of the world, including China. There is something about persecution that spurs church growth. I don't claim to know what it is or understand it, but there it is. Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against the church, and I believe that even when it seems to be something of a spiritual desert where I live. Perhaps the real church is not doing that well in my area, but it is growing elsewhere just like Jesus said it would.

Surely the Christian answer should be "neither"?

When we love the Lord, we have a prayer deep within us that cries "make my desires, Your desires, Lord". It is not of God to cherish desires that are in conflict with His desires. So we pray, I don't know what more we can ask than for ANYONE, regardless of their particular temptations, to repent of their sins, and to pray for their desires and actions and beliefs to come in line with His.

I think we ALL know that you can't just 'give up' thoughts and tendencies. It needs to be laid at His feet and requires a lot of prayer. None of us are in a position to judge these people or to know how God views the whole thing. Oh....and welcome to Worthy.

Why? Their are some on here who like to be agitated and to agitate.

Hi I do not believe there is any mystery with the seven churches , it is what it says repent or you will suffer punishment , Paul had great worries about his churches ,there was fornication , worldliness , envy’s ,strife, back biting ,and so on , all scripture is for our learning , it would make little sense if it had been written in way that was too hard to understand , the text certainly apply to the churches of today , Paul said do not divide into groups , today we have about 22000 different denominations , wonder what Paul would have said about that , if it was a sin then , it's still a sin , there is only one church ,the body of Christ , a spiritual church that include all believers we should all look to Jesus Christ and give up all differences they are of this world , Landers