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I still cannot believe this is still being discussed. The Bible is very clear on being gay, abstaining or not. You cannot be gay with or without abstaining and be a Christian. It goes against everything the Bible teaches. It's getting very tiring and it could give new believers a wrong impression on what the truth is, and again homosexuality is a sin period.

(eyes roll) I know, I know, we have all heard it before and thought such rhetoric to be over the top and baseless. I also had these inclinations, that is, before I started learning about the Third Reich. Try some of the quotes form Nazi's on for size. "We ask that government undertake the obligation above all of providing citizens with adequate opportunity for employment and earning a living. The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash with the interests of the community, but must take place within the confines and be for the good of all. Therefore, we demand and end to power of financial interest. We demand profit sharing in big business. We demand a broad extension of care for the aged. We demand the greatest consideration of small business in the purchases of the national state, and municipal governments in order to make possible to every capable industrious citizen attainment of higher education and thus the achievement of a post of leadership, the government must provide an all around enlargement of our system of public education. We demand education of government must undertake the improvement of public health - by protecting mother and child, by prohibiting child labor - by the greatest possible support for all groups concerned with the physical education of youth. We combat the materialistic spirit within and without us, and are convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only proceed from within on the foundation of the Common Good before the individual good. - National Socialist Party "Societies needs come before the individuals" - Hitler "We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemingly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and prosperity instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy their system under all costs." - Hitler "As socialists, we are opponents of the Jews, because we see, in the Hebrews, the incarnation of capitalism, of the misuse of the nations goods." - Joseph Goebbels "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" - Hitler "Gold is not necessary, I have no interest in gold. We will build a solid state, without an ounce of gold behind it." - Hitler. "Believe me, National Socialism would be worth nothing if it were to be confined to Germany and did not secure the rule over the whole world for at least one to two thousand years." - Hitler "The more we are doing to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it." - Joseph Mengele "Why nationalize industry when you can nationalize the people?" - Hitler "All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those toward whom it is directed will understand it. Through clever and constant applications of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and vise versa, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise." - Hitler "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedian religion too would have much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?" - Hitler These quotes sound frighteningly similar to things we hear today. However, I have much, much more than this to drive home my point. A German Historian by the name of Gotz Aly wrote a book called, "Hitler's Beneficiaries". In the book the historian Aly studied the relationship between government largeness and corruption. Most people don't realize that the Nazi government was very progressive. They taxed most of the wealth that the top 4% had in Germany, and simply took from Jews as they killed them. They also used plunder from wars abroad and threw all of this money at their base, the average working German. In fact, Germans had the highest quality of life of anyone in Europe, and arguably in the US. Food was always plentiful in Germany, even up until 1945. The people had free health care, education, retirement etc. Aly concluded that the biggest reason that the Nazis could carry out a genocide was, the progressive state was buying their support off of theft from those abroad. As the Bible indicated, the love of money is the root of all evil. The Nazi model is but one example. http://llco.org/hitlers-beneficiaries-2005-by-gotz-aly/ But can we throw progressives of today under the bus with the Nazi regime? Can we label today's progressives as genocidal warmongers as well? Sure the Nazis were modern day progressives in terms of economic outlooks, but are they the monsters that create death camps? Consider this, the US has troops in over 70 countries around the world. It also recently had wars going on in three different countries and is currently attempting one in Syria. Also consider abortion. The US has killed far more unborn children than all the Jews combined that died in Nazi Germany. Considering these things, are the progressives in the US that much better? Today we have abortions doctors sitting around with jars full of babies feet on their desks. How much better exactly are we than the Nazi regime? Of course, progressives of today get their money by stealing from future generations, as well as the top 1%. They then throw their money at the base needed to maintain power, just like the Nazi model showed us it could be done. In fact, the loyalty generated by this winning formula is so strong, people are willing to overlook the most horrific of deeds. Now Americans are willing to overlook that the government spies on them at will with impunity, and even can jail them without due process under the NDAA. They are willing to overlook the extermination of millions of unborn children with next to no regulation. The payoff is just too luring to decline. But the similarities between Nazis and modern day progressives does not end there. Interestingly, the Nazi's would have given PETA a run for their money. Hermann Goring once said, "Unbearable torture and suffering in animal experiments and those who still think they can treat animals as inantimate property will be sent off to concentration camps." In fact, Germany passed some of the most progressives acts of legislation protecting animals, all while brutalizing human beings in the most animalistic fashion imaginable. Hitler loved animals to such an extent, he was a vegetarian. But it gets even weirder, as if that were possible. The Nazis were also ardent environmentalists. The Nazis ordered their soldiers to plant trees. There were the first Europeans to establish nature reserves and order the protection of hedgerows and other wildlife habitats. And they were horrified at the idea of hydroelectric dams on the Rhine. Is it just me that is creeped out by these similarities?

Might I suggest that you have no absolute knowledge on this subject and are just like the rest of us.....living according to our personal beliefs. You really shouldn't step on the expectations of other believers. The Pre-, Mid-, Post theories are not salvational issues, after all.

Regardless of whether the rapture is pre-trib or post-trib (and I see a lot of unnecessary PRIDE on both sides of the argument), this is still a great topic to have started. It is a good way of debating how those in denial explain-away miracles that they see happen before their very eyes. When the state of Israel was formed in 1948 some Christians claimed that this was proof that God's prophecies come true. Of course, the Atheists and mockers came out with their usual sneers, such as coincidence, Zionist political power, or self-fulfilled prophecy. An event as powerful and as explicit as the rapture would be very difficult to ignore, so how is it explained by those who refuse to believe? Well, you have some possible answers in this thread. And just for the record, I myself am undecided, but I incline more towards post-trib than pre-trib, Until I am more certain, I like to remain open to both possibilities.

Amen~!

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1 John 5:31 ~ Dear One May I Suggest Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 The Whole Truth Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6 ~ PS: Dear One You Wouldn't Be The First To Try And Change God's Word “This is what the LORD says about the prophets who are causing my people to go astray, who are calling out ‘Peace’ when they’re being fed, but who declare war against those who won’t feed them: ‘You will have nights without visions, and darkness without prophecy. The sun will set on the prophets, and the day will darken for them. Those who see visions will be put to shame, and the diviners will be disgraced— every one of them— they will cover their faces, because there will be no answer from God.’” Micah 3:5-7 Or The Last I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43 Believe And Be Blessed Beloved But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:20-22 Love, Joe

Matchmaker Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8 Matchmaker O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 1 Timothy 6:20 I'll Bring The Veil http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/fiddlerontheroof/tradition.htm But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 2 Corinthians 4:3-5 ~ Yeap! Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20 He Said She Said Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16 And Then There The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Psalms 19:1 Is God I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

The big bang theory though its sounds and looks logical, goes contrary to The Bible on creation. The theory is tied in with evolution. If you or anyone else accepts this theory then your telling me that you came from a monkey, I certainly didn't (Genesis 1:26-27; then chapter 4-5). why is it then men and animals stopped evolving into something else? Yes I do believe we change and adopt to our environment, but not according to evolution and The Big Bang Theories Well D-9 and Barry sort of dealt with this issue but the Big Bang Theory in no way implies evolution (in terms of the Darwinian theory) nor does evolution involve our coming from monkeys, we simply share an ancestor with the other primates. ~ How But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26 I Know And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9 The Bang And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:14-15 Ain't Worth A Buck And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:16-19 So Keep The Faith Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:1-3 And Know You This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:21-23 Are Loved Love, Joe ~ Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

I disagree. The Holy Spirit must be absent from the world in order for the beast to ascend to power. The Holy Spirit will exist so long as Christians are present in the world. You cannot remove the Holy Spirit from the world without removing the Christians it dwells within. That is why I believe in the "pre-tribulation" rapture.

NChrist, I'm getting the distinct impression that you are SICK of the whole gay thing. I feel the same way; such a tiny fraction of the population seems to be hogging the stage. I would like for these people to come to God.....but, yeah, like you I'm really tired of the whole agenda. I sincerely pray that they can repent. Yes, you are correct. The whole gay agenda and indoctrination program has backfired with folks like me. In other words, I'm further from acceptance than ever. Yes, I definitely want them to come to God, and I pray for that every day. It would be accurate to say that I love them but I hate the sin.

I think personally the rapture will be reason folks will freak but after it they will fall for any story the govt puts out after all they don't recognize the truth now as it is

The mt graham telescope works with astronomers at major universities for all aspects of current research in astronomy. It is not looking for aliens.

How? Probably one lone dude on Worthy chat saying "see I told you so!" Then he will get kicked and it will all be over. Sorry, I don't have scripture to support my theory, but it's as valid as some I have seen on this thread....

Probably The Prodigal Son Luke 15:11-32