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Grace comes to us in two dimensions: vertical and horizontal. Vertical grace centers on our relationships with God. Freeing us from the demands and the condemnation of the Mosaic law, vertical grace gives us hope to the sinner by not only providing eternal life but also freeing us from any requirements to pay back God. Vertical grace is truly amazing! Horizontal grace centers around our relationship with others. Relieved from our guilt and shame, we walk in grace, we’re free from the tyranny of pleasing people. We’re free from their demands and expectations, and they’re free from ours. When we can demonstrate horizontal grace, we accept others as they are. We have no personal agenda to make anyone be someone he or she is not. Horizontal grace is truly charming! The basic commandments by Christ were to love God and love people. I think sometimes we understand grace in the context of God's grace towards us. But we forget to allow God's grace given to us to overflow in our relationships and give us the opportunity to be gracious to others. Charles also is known to have said something to the extent of: "I am more interested in aging with God's grace than aging gracefully. As I get older I want to be filled with more of God's grace and love." I. Two Strong Tendencies that Nullify Grace A. Comparing ourselves to others Examples… Musical Tastes Income Marital Status Number of children B. Seeking to control others Intimidation/Judgment We need to stop trying to be in charge of others lives (Or the Holy Spirit for that matter) Playing the King of the Mountain – don’t do it. II. Four Biblical Guidelines that Personify Grace (Romans 14) A. Remember that accepting others is basic to letting God grow them. B. Releasing others allows the Lord to direct the details we're not qualified to fill. C. Freeing others means we never assume a role (of the Holy Spirit). D. Loving others requires us to express our liberty wisely. What was the taboo issue of the day in the Church in Romans 14? The big issue of the day was eating food and in particular meat offered to idols. Meat would be sold on the market that was offered to an idol. Newer Believers would be exasperated that those who’d been in the faith longer had no issue with food offered to idols. See: Romans 14:1-19 (NLT) III. Suggestions on how to give more horizontal grace? A. Refocus on things that encourage peace. B. Remember that sabotaging saints hurts God’s work. C. Refuse to play God in anyone’s life. God bless, GE Source: Based on a sermon listened today with my wife by Charles Swindoll - The Grace to Let Others Be... February 15, 2013 Edit: Added the section in bold red.

There is more to the timing of breast feeding than most people consider. It is worth investigating when considering why a mother will nurse in public because the mother most likely has. Breast feeding on demand It is interesting considering the obesity crisis in western countries and some help might be right under our nose ( or our mother's necks ).

God designed breasts with a dual purpose imho. Read song of songs lately?

Research that based on results of ISSP (International Social Survey Programme) ja GESIS:n (Institute for the Social Sciences) have brought out, that Sweden is one the most atheistic country in the world. According to the research also Czech Republic is a very atheistic country. On the research was asked among other things followed questions; I don't believe in God, I don't believe in God and I never have, believing in a Personal God. Results are from the year 2008. Sweden was at the front in different countries' divorce statistics. In addition, Czech Republic was at the front in that statistics. According to NationaMaster.com statistics (2000) in Sweden, the divorces' rates compared the world rates was the second most and in Czech Republic the third most when was calculated how many divorces happen per 100 marriages. The rate of Sweden was 53,9 per divorces per 100 marriages, and czech Republic rate was 53,7 divorces per 100 marriages. Finland's rate was 53,2 divorces per 100 marriages. In the light of preceding statistics' people who have the atheistic world view (don't believe on God) are the most divorce cases. Knoxnews's previously mentioned article of was provocation and purposely distorted, which intention was promoting of atheism. NationMaster.com's rape statistics reported that in the year 2009, rape case in Sweden was the fourth most in the world. In France was done the most rape cases and in Germany, the second most in the world. According to IPPS statistics, France and Germany were at the top from the countries, in which people didn't believe in God. In the light of this results people who have the atheistic world view make the most rape cases. From these statistics brings out that large amount of godless people lives immorality. Immorality is not an indication about the intelligent, but indications from negative and harmful lifestyle. In the year 2012, members of Swedish Lutheran Church were 67 percent from the population. About 2 percent from Lutherans in Sweden regularly attended to Sunday meetings. According to research Sweden was one of the most atheistic countries in the world despite it that almost 70 percent of them were members of Lutheran Church. This means that the biggest part from members of Swedish Lutheran Church doesn't believe in God. In the light of all the preceding information majority of Swedish Lutheran Church's members are godless people. Swedish divorce and rape statistics tell the fact that godless people are the most immoral people. We can see also that being a member in religious institution don't mean that they believe in God or the Bible, but the most of them are godless people. My intention is not slander godless people, but bring out the facts that stand behind the statistics. It is truly clear that people who believe in God of the Bible (believe in the Lord Jesus) live according to very high moral. It is very important to bring out one important thing, which distorts the facts. Pedophilia is disgusting, and evil sin of fornication (sexual sin) and crusades are against God's will. Pedophilia scandals of Roman Catholic Church (RCC) and bloody crusades done by Catholics don't represent the Biblical faith, but devilish behavior of sin and evil deeds. Roman Catholic Church is not the Church of God, but the false imitation from the Church of God. Many people say that the Christiany has killed millions of people. This claim is incorrect, because Roman catholic Church has killed millions of people. In reality, godless people on disguise of a believer did those horrific killings. Things done by religion don't mean the same thing as the Biblical faith. From this very clear example and indication is evil deeds of Roman Catholic Church. The real Christianity and Roman Catholic Church are totally two different things. Religious and theological teachings of Roman Catholic Church are against the word of God (Status of Mary and pope, sacrifice of the mass, purgatory, doctrine of indulgences, salvation through water baptism and so on). Wrong teachings, sexual crimes and killings of Roman Catholic Church show that religiousness of Roman Catholic Church is ungodliness, because RCC teaches and lives against the teaching of the Bible. In the matter of fact religion and religiousness represent ungodliness, because according to the teaching of the Bible believing in God by the Lord Jesus question the faith, not from the religion or religiousness. Because the Bible says that all the gods of the people are idols (religion). This means that religiousness, and religion is a sin against God. In the light of this Biblical fact, all godless people (religious people, atheists and all who don't believe to God of the Bible) commit the most crimes and live most of all immoral life. Criticism against Christianity that has been given for teachings and evil deeds of Roman Catholic Church has gone to the wrong address, because RCC doesn't represent the real and genuine Biblical faith, but it is false imitation from the genuine Christianity. When the target of criticism is wrong, so that kind of criticism has no value of the truth. If you have criticized from Christianity based on Roman Catholic Church's doctrine and evil deeds, so you have criticized wrong target.

Oh wow. Thank you Joseph for posting. I SO appreciate your teachable spirit! To clarify, people gain trust when they are transparent and I believe, honest, as you have been. I appreciate the inner struggle you have presented. God bless you also! I don't know seven, I guess the way I look at things from my point of view is this. I can get corrected when I step in front of Christ on judgment day or I can let him correct me now. Since I see those IMO as my only 2 choices, and 1 or the other is going to happen. Then, I think I would rather be corrected now. Even if it's 500 times a day, it's better than waiting until judgment day to be corrected. That's one of my prayers that I pray often from the heart. Correct me now Lord Jesus.

I agree. Scientists are not Satan's minions and the former is how good science gets done.

Brings to mind, 'lean not on your own understanding' it can be our greatest enemy. The footsteps of the righteous are ordered... Also IQ stays in the ground and even in this journey it can leave us. All is well that ends well. Interesting read.

What is billions of years to an eternal Being? Well that is true. But God's word is important to God, because God does not lie. True, but one can argue what "evening" and "morning" were before the Sun was created. And one can argue whether our understanding of the word "yom" is correct. The point of my question, though, is jiggle your thinking to consider that perhaps this argument is not as logical as you might think it seems. In presenting your case to influence an argument, please consider that it does fall short, and perhaps it would behoove you to attempt a different approach.

Those that hold to evolution from atoms to mankind and long ages of the universe circumvent and violate all scientific principles. Creationists love science and have the right answers to boot. No evolutionists seems to be able to answer or refute the issues I have brought up. That is circumventing science.

We've spent a great deal of time running down the epistemological rabbit trail of Bible atrocities, but I have yet to get a response to my question about moral reform given cultural relativism. If cultural relativism is true then whatever a culture prefers is morally right for that culture. So if a culture prefers to view blacks as inferior then it is morally right for that culture to do so. Anybody who goes against the cultural "fashion" is immoral. This poses a huge problem when it comes to moral reformers because while in real life we hail the efforts of Martin Luther King for going against the cultural norm, cultural relativism dictates that we view such people as immoral. Likewise the very notion of moral reform is impossible. One cannot look back at a culture and say that it is now morally better than it was before, because that presupposes a moral standard beyond the culture which the culture is now closer to adhering to. I'm hoping that Gerald will begin addressing this issue as it deals with moral ontology which is what the topic is actually about. Then I've also made a comment about morality given a purely materialistic perspective, which is what most atheists adhere to. I asked: This question has been completely ignored, but I think it's a very valid question and I'd like it answered. In an atheistic worldview, humans beings don't have intrinsic value and our sense of value is merely and illusion and so is morality. Given atheism morality boils down to nothing more than chemistry and physics. But given that view, how is it possible for a deterministic chemical reaction to have any normative value? I can't which is why most well known proponents of atheism declare that there is no such thing as right or wrong. I have entertained your questions about genocide, but attempting to vilify God or Christianity doesn't magically give atheism a free ride when it comes to grounding morality. So I'm hoping we can get back on topic and discuss this important issue which has been largely ignored thus far. I've had a number of these discussion and at this stage I find it quite telling, that whenever the issue of moral grounding is raised, many atheists prefer to ignore the implications of their own worldview and instead redirect the topic to a discussion of Old Testament "atrocities" as if making the Bible look bad is an adequate response to the questions of moral ontology. It would be refreshing to see more atheists employ some of their professed superior reasoning (rational freethinking "brightness") to reason through their own worldview instead of just flailing against Christianity. I find this tendency to be a smudge on the new atheism.

As I said, the Israelites were acting under God's command. Surely you don't really expect me to believe that the notion of acting on behalf of an authority is foreign to you? When a judge sentences a criminal their acting on behalf of the state, they're not acting in their own capacity. Hence the words, "by the power vested in me by the state". Likewise when a traffic officer issues a fine they're not acting in their private capacity but as an agent of the law. I know, who does God think He is, right? This is pure speculation on your part. You have absolutely no idea of knowing what they knew, what they thought, or what epistomological warrant they had. God is the source of morality. "Sexual slavery" is a distortion and a red herring. I've addressed the "genocide" issue. I have yet to see you provide any reason to place God under the same limitations and prerogatives that humans have. I see no reason why the Source of morality isn't also allowed to judge based on moral reasons and effect moral justice. I needn't do that because "genocide" was never a moral precedent. Jesus once told the disciples to sit on the grass (Mark 6:39). There's no reason to construe this as a moral precendent that we always ought to sit on grass unless told otherwise. You're assuming that all commands are moral precendents, but you have offered no justification for such a bizarre assumption. Because it's not accurate. I can list lots of things wrong with genocide, and I would never ever defend it in any context. Sure you can list lots of things wrong with genocide, but you cannot say it's really morally wrong for another culture to commit genocide, if you're consistent with cultural relativism. In cultural relativism saying "X is wrong" simply means "we in our culture prefer not X", which is equivalant to a cultural preference for eating with chopsticks. It's not that the action is actually wrong, but that it's unfashionable in your culture. And that matter because? Under cultural relativism right we in our culture prefer X. If some cultures prefer to eat with chopstick why should your culture be obliged to do likewise? If some cultures like to listen to heavy metal, why should another culture adopt the same preference? You keep talking as if there's some objective standard about genocide that makes it immoral, but if you wish to be consistent, you cannot appeal to such a thing. It's all just cultural fashion. Homicide is unjustified killing. Genocide is unjustified killing of many. The operative word here is "justified". If God had a morally sufficient reason for ordering the destruction of Canaan(and you have offered no reason to assume there was't any), then isn't isn't wrong. Again this comment shows a misunderstanding of what objective means, and I have repeatedly stated that morality is always circumstance dependent. If a person cuts somebody open with a knife, then it's usually wrong. If that person happens to be a surgeon performing an operation then it is not wrong, because the virtue of performing a vital medical operation outweighs the virtue of not cutting people open. If God reason's for destroying the Canaanites is morally weightier than the reason for letting them live, then the morally weightier option is correct. I'm not dancing around anything. You have yet to establish that God is subject to the same restrictions and prerogatives that humans have. Without that missing piece of the puzzle there's no need for me to "dance" around anything. I'm simply seperating the rhetorical value of your argument with it's substance. I prefer clarity, what's wrong with that? Here again you're assuming that objective morality isn't circumstance dependent. God didn't set a moral precedent, He judged. When a traffic officer issues a fine they're not setting a moral precedent for civilians to follow. This really shouldn't be difficult to understand. Had I been a Nazi soldier, taking part in the "final solution", I would have been wrong regardless of whether I believed my actions to be wrong if moral objectivism is true. If cultural relativism is true, then there'd be nothing wrong with my actions as there's no objective moral standard, my culture simply defined the Final Solution as right, so I'd be right in taking part. This is the problem with cultural relativism, which you still need to address. I can claim to be a policer officer, but the mere claim doesn't authorise me to go about arresting people. Likewise the mere claim that a genocidal act is the will of God, doesn't justify the action. I'm assuming that now you'll try to say something to the effect of "how do you know the Israelites weren't mistaken about God ordering the killings?" Am I right? If my suspicion is correct, then for the sake of not wasting time the simple answer is we're discussing whether the claims in the Bible are consistent, not whether they're true. In order to float a case of inconsistency you have to assume the claims to be true. In a vacuum it is always immoral. However, as I've stated many times before objective morality depends on circumstance. In a vacuum lying is always immoral. However if you're a French farmer harbouring jews in WW2 and an SS officer knocks on your door and asks if you're harbouring jews, then the virtue of saving the lives of the jews is weightier than the virtue of not lying. This doesn't nullify the virtue of not lying, such that lying under any circumstance now becomes virtuous. The virtue of not lying is still in place. It still adds it's weight to the moral equation, but the greater virtue (saving the lives of the jews) must be satisfied.

You might say, I don’t believe in God, but the bible says: “not possible.” See, everyone has a god whether or not it’s the god of the gospel. You might not believe in God, but everyone has that one thing that’s king. Even the dictionary defines God as what “whatever we make supreme.” Because it’s a theme, a thread, it’s inside of all human beings, the fact that we all worship. And no, it’s not just about singing. Now I know you’re like : “Jeff, I don’t worship, I put that on the shelf.” But I say technically we all worship, we just worship ourselves. See we all worship something, to an object we’re all liable, ladies, to some your boyfriend is your God, and Cosmo is your bible. Yet, we mock and we laugh at the Israelites Golden Calf, but we do the same right back; it just looks different than that. So question, what’s on your throne? What do you chase so you don’t feel alone? So what defines you, what do you give ultimate worth? And what if taken will bring ultimate hurt? Now see, that is your God. And all of us, we’ve sacrifice deep joy for shallow happiness, to be honest, we look like fools, We’re like full grown adults in the kiddie pool, going “oh my goodness guys, this is like so cool.” Because we’re slaves to our possessions, we are always craving something new, Reality check, if you can’t give it up, you don’t own it, it owns you. And that’s why the bible, it says we’re all spiritual prostitutes, in fact it says we’re worse. Because at least prostitutes get paid for their works. All we get paid is a hearse. That’s why worship is not just behavior, it goes way into our core, So ask yourself what is your God? What do you bow down before? For example some of us, we don’t worship God, but we worship what He said, Religions Check-list 1 Be a “GOOD” person 2 Act better than others 3 Don’t smoke, drink, or have sex 4 Actually love & desire Jesus Source: LYBIO.net We got theology in your head, but in your hearts, poor, pitiful, naked and dead. Or some of us worship in stadiums, while some of us worship in bars. Some of us worship our possessions, while some of us worship our cars, See, some of us worship science, while some of us worship the arts, But I don’t care what your clothes your idol’s wearing, the disease is the heart. Or my favorite is those guys who say: “Jeff, I’m a man, because I’m in control!” Okay, then can you tell me why you can’t stop having sex with your hand, while staring at your macbook pro. Or what about those guys who trade their wives for their jobs at work – give more time to their boss then their actual wives’s needs or hurts. And ladies, ladies, no guy can love you more than Jesus already had, So stop putting your worth in Magic Mike, He’s so much better than that. Now, I know what you’re thinking, you’re probably thinking: “Jeff, are you saying we should hate money, hate alcohol and never have sex.” No, but I’m not saying that God created those all to be enjoyed in their proper context. But I wanna transition, I want to make a spiritual incision, Can you really say these things are the ultimate purpose of living? I mean, instead of worshiping the Creator of you and I, We’ve all said screw you God; I’ll take your stuff, but you can die. But that trade is terrible, trading God for man It’s like God offers us water, and we say: “but God, this is such good sand!” Or my friends they’ll say, “Jeff, a God that requires me to give up something” I just can’t fathom, Yet most of us seem fine giving up everything for a quick orgasm? I mean am I the only one, whose felt the gnawing within? Am I the only one whose felt the weight of my own sin? But see here’s what’s unique, so go ahead and critique, but if you hear anything, here this one thing that I speak. Where we exchanged ourselves for god, thinking we could be Him He exchanged himself for us, absorbing all our sin. I mean God literally , put on flesh, and do you see how we treated him? The ultimate war veteran, because he was killed for our freedom. Nonetheless, He was thinking of you and me, with every whip that beat em, knowing full well we’d still go nah, I don’t really need him. But like a Father, he couldn’t bare his children to not be free So he thought up that tree, paid our fee, for specs of dirt like you and me So my plea is let Him restore His proper place, I promise you He loves you right now. Just trust in His grace. Because before I leave, I’ll leave you with this: What are those other things took nails in their wrists? Or how about when was the last time money or sex forgave you? Whens the last time your boyfriend set you free from all you’ve enslaved to? See what else died so that you could be made new? Or when was the last time the world promised satisfaction, and actually came through? “COUNTERFEIT GODS IF YOU FAIL THEM WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU, AND IF YOU GET THEM WILL NEVER SATISFY YOU… THIS IS THE ONLY GOD WHO WILL – JESUS AND HIS RESURRECTION.” – TIM KELLER

(1) I feel the need to defend the Gospel because: 1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. I don't plan on changing anyone's mind or heart; I can't! I believe that the Spirit can work through me though, and He will do the changing. (2) True. I admit that I have not read all of the Old Testament. I started this thread because I do not know all of the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus or where they are, and was honestly taken aback when this person (my brother) wrote this to me, since usually when we talk about God and Jesus he spends most of the conversation blaspheming. I am well aware that I need to read my bible more (who doesn't?), and I just wanted some help from other Christians who might have dealt with a similar situation, or who could help point me in the right direction in the bible on where to continue my study. My family has never read the New Testament, and they don't care to. To them, Jesus is just a "good teacher." They do not consider the New Testament to be divinely inspired by God, to my knowledge. They have very literally closed their eyes and ears to the truth. It is very concerning for me. I do have faith that God can and will change their hearts... as well as my own. I think you make a good point about understanding and discerning the Word. That is something that I will pray for more fervently. Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." I gather from you post that your relative was not on offense, but on defense.I could be wrong on that point. However, my take is that your relative has worked themselves in to a place of comfort, a place that requires no commitment or submission. They are their own god. I was in the same position with my brother. I made my self available to answer any questions he would ask, and most times I did't have an answer, but I would bring it to the lord, and every case GOD gave me an answer. That does not mean I understood every answer. After seven years of searching for answers I picked up a scripture or two. The scripture that comes to mind for you is as follows: 2 Timothy 2:23 New King James Version (NKJV) 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. ​After seven years my brother decided to accept the Lord as his savior. When I asked him why now, his response was that over time he saw that I was telling and living the truth. Plus I never made him feel any less for not accepting Jesus. I think in retrospect that the Lord was working on me while at the same time working on my brother. Blessed is GOD the father and his son our lord Jesus.

I agree, man. Comforting a suicidal person with the theology that suicide is not a sin is like giving them green light to go ahead and kill themselves. But alternatively condemning the person who commits suicide to Hell will torture the loved ones left behind. Beware the consequences of how you answer, folks! A person tempted with suicide does not need to hear whether suicide is a sin or not; they need to hear and know how much God loves them and wants them to live; that He wants to walk with them through their pain, shame, hopelessness, fear, darkness; that He will make even this work together for good.