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I think it helpful to understand something. God already knows all, so His testing nor the testing from the world and devil are in order that God may know something about us. He is not "experimenting" with us to see what we can handle, as if He does not already know! Testing merely proves and shows forth what is already there. If there are hidden doubts, they come forth so that we can deal with them. If there are unrealized fears, out they come, and we can deal with them. If there be bitterness, unforgiveness, wounds, and any number of things in our soul that hinder and bind us up unawares, testing brings these things to the surface so we can scrape them off (actually allow the Spirit to remove them by confessing and forsaking them) and have the victory in Christ over them. The process also shows us what good qualities we are lacking in our character, so that we rightly surrender ourselves anew to the Lord in order to know His perfect will and become renewed in our minds (Rom 12:1-2). Testing and trials are the means of self discovery and awareness so that we can truly know the state of our souls in being sanctified and maturing. Unfortunately, most of us struggle greatly and mistake the testing and trials as purely bad, purely negative, purely an attack against us. However, when we submit and allow God to work all things together for our good, then we can receive the benefit therein. Many Blessings, Andy

============================================================================================= Again I disagree. I can only speak for myself here but the argument isn't solely directed @ the addressee. I write it for the droves of "Quiet Lurkers" that view these threads that may be on the fence. This particular one was only based on the Tenets of "Science".....and I already know Tristen is a Christian Well I would agree to a point but if you expose these ideas for what they are through either "bad" science or logic errors.....they might not see them immediately but it could lay the groundwork for an eventual "Light On" moment down the road. Most aren't anywhere near a Bible or "Doctrine" so that point is moot from the start. We are admonished to Expose Evil and False Ideas .... (Ephesians 5:11) "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." That's like bringing the pigeons to the cat. And it's Impossible (if you are Armed) why? Well GOD'S WORD is ABSOLUTE TRUTH......therefore; anything that contradicts GOD'S WORD is a LIE. They're already in CheckMate before the conversation begins. I've found a large percentage wouldn't know what science was if it landed on their head and whistled dixie..... but they use the term "science" rather clumsily to justify their behavior and/or lead people astray. I don't see it....and more importantly, it will not have any impact to me personally Again, I tailor most responses not to the addressee but to the droves of "Quiet Lurkers" that just view and don't post. I have never personally got into a face to face argument of the magnitude and detail here....because I agree, that in most cases.... would be futile. Say What? Some may need a little more background, and............. (Luke 8:16) " No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light." See responses above They're not "My Proofs" I just try to illuminate.... (Romans 1:20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" No worries.

There's a difference though. In Western societies, Christians can shun psychic activity and they should never get involved with it. Because we live in a free society, psychics are an alternative that some people use. Malaysia is a Muslim society and Islam has great belief in jinns, spirits and other demons. Most Muslims believe in the power of witchcraft as they are very superstitious. Muslims not only believe in a false god, they also believe in the power of the occult even though Islam expressly forbids it.

Prair, again, if I fail to mention the positive aspects of the Amish community, I apologize. The Amish are a very tight-knit group. They also have their own system of health insurance where everyone chips into a fund, and very often have fund-raising dinners and such to help needy people, usually medically oriented. There are things that they do which the more "modern" churches can learn from, even be shamed by, as far as the strength of community that is evidenced. It was not my intention to negate these sort of things with the negative aspects that came up. Amish culture is complicated, mostly because of the use of scripture to justify their particular choices. Thanks for your insightful comments, Andy

prairwarur, About the German, Amish do not speak the common German language, but what they call "dutch" which is not the dutch of Netherlands, but "Pennsylvania dutch", the word dutch as a derivative of Deutche (German). My son is a German language major in college and he can assure you that the two dialects are vastly different. In the Amish schools, they actually teach a little bit of the High German, but not enough to grasp a large portion of the vocabulary in the German Bible. Even the supposed experts in High German anongst the Amish are not as well versed as my son is in the language. The situation bears similarity to how the Roman Catholics once read all Bible passages in the church in Latin. The Catholic schools taught some Latin, but not enough for the Bible readings to be truly edifying and fully understood. Please allow me to agree with you that there are many absolutely godly and wonderful Amish people. Your story is one of many I have both heard, and been involved in. I drive some Amish folks to visit with English people that they have met and stay in contact with. Many Amish folks are kind and very pleasant to be around. It is not good people that I have any problem with, it is bad religion. I am sorry if you disagree with my pointing out of specific Amish doctrines which I believe are false, legalistic in the extreme, or oppressive. I believe that I stated before that I am not against Amish people, but only against false doctrine and practice which exists. I would not even criticize those things, if it were not for the fact that they are being taught and enforced in the name of Christ, and that makes it the true universal church's job to point it out. Being Amish as a culture in and of itself is quaint and unusual. The issue is that one is forced out of the Christian Church of the Amish for breaking ranks on purely cultural points. One person in particular feels that this behavior is fine, and it matters nothing at all how controlling and legalistic church leaders want to be. I heartily disagree, but that is part of the reason we have discussion forums, isn't it? The truth is that knowing a couple of nice Amish families tells you about as much as knowing a couple of nice mormon, muslim, or scientology families. I know that Amish are German Baptists at their root, and adhere to orthodoxy concerning Christ. My point in comparing them to those false religionists is that there are nice, kind, friendly people of all persuasions. Since I am much more familiar with the actual doctrines and practices of the Amish church, I can tell you some things you may not want to hear, but they are true. I live in the center of a huge Amish community and most of my closest friends grew up Amish. I work with and for them.

I respectfully disagree. God is omniscient, He knows all things, including the future. Jesus stated that God knows what is in the heart of man. Nothing catches God by surprise because He is also eternal, outside of time. God created the space-time continuum and has demonstrated his power and control over time in many ways in the scripture. The greatest proof is the sweeping revelation given to John "in the spirit", where God takes him and shows him events thousands of years in the future. I understand that there are statements made in the Old Testament such as the one you just quoted, where God is speaking to a man of limited understanding, and speaks to him on his level, which can make God appear less than omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and eternal. The fact that God chooses to communicate thus (there are other examples, like when Abraham barters for Sodom and Gomorrah and "changes God's mind") does not negate His actual supremacy and Divine qualities. The rest of scripture interprets statements like this, not the other way around. God already knows what is in the heart or every man who ever lived or will live. The test is not for Him to know anything, but it does expose the truth so that man can know, and so that man can then properly interact with his God. I would alter your statement thus: testing is for God to expose our true heart

While I am not sure that the gathering on Sunday was because it was 'resurrection day', I do agree with you. It was the practice of the Jewish people to have gatherings 7 days a week, and it was also the practice of the early church to gather 7 days a week. The Sabbath is not about worship services. The Sabbath is a day of rest, and worship is 7 days a week. If a group chooses to gather on Sunday, that is as good as any day. I personally believe that the early Christians would go to synagogues on the Sabbath if one was available in their area for two reasons. To hear scripture read, and to share the good news of the Messiah with the Jewish people. On Sunday, they would gather with other believers to discuss NT scripture, and to share what had occurred Saturday as well as the previous days of the week, and to pray together. That gathering was for believers only. I know many Messianic Jews who go to a Messianic synagogue on Saturday and a Christian church on Sundays, so the dual practice is done.

There would be no need in scripture to say that the Church should return to Hebrew roots, as the church, in the time of scripture were already aware and practicing 'Hebrew roots'. The first believers were Jewish and had practiced according to the OT, moving to the NT. They would know and recognize the Jewishness in Christianity, and the Jewish believers would have explained the practice and meaning of Jesus in light of the fulfillments in the OT. So, the question would not be a reminder of Hebrew roots, as that was already normal in Christian practice. The better question would be, 'when did the Church abandon Hebrew roots?' For that answer, we go to 325 ce, the first council of Nicea. At that time Constantine was able to influence the result of the council and his influence had an anti-Jewish bend. Letters were written to the churches to cease any practice which was related to the Jews or Judaism. So, in 325 ce, the church intentionally abandoned 'Hebrew roots'. The following are quotes from a paper (English translation) of various decrees and letters written from the 1st council of Nicea. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt We further proclaim to you the good news of the agreement concerning the holy Easter, that this particular also has through your prayers been rightly settled; so that all our brethren in the East who formerly followed the custom of the Jews are henceforth to celebrate the said most sacred feast of Easter at the same time with the Romans and yourselves and all those who have observed Easter from the beginning. (The change from celebrating the NT Passover to the Easter as well as changing the timing of the celebration so it no longer coincided with Passover). CANON LII. Usury and the base seeking of worldly gain is forbidden to the clergy, also conversation and fellowship with Jews. (Forbidding the clergy to fellowship or even talk with the Jewish people). ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER. From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council. (Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.) When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable, than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom[the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, So, the church today celebrates in a manner which has been passed down from the council of Nicea, which intentionally removed anything related to the Jewish people from Christianity. Jewish roots is actually a return to pre-Nicea Christianity. Or at least an awareness of the original practices and meanings known by the early Christians. Does this return alter the understanding of Jesus? Not in the fundamentals of the gospel of salvation, and the awareness does not effect a persons salvation one way or the other. Salvation is by faith alone in Yeshua alone. But, it does help to put a fair amount of NT scripture into context as the NT and OT are all one book, with continuing themes and explanations. So, no, you will not find and admonition in scripture to return to Hebrew roots as the church had not left Hebrew roots when scripture was written. Now, what is Judaizing? It was the practice of certain people in NT times to go to Gentile believers and tell them they must be circumcised. Ritual circumcision was 'becoming Jewish'. The Judaizers thought the Gentile believers needed to become Jewish and observe the Mosaic law. To be obligated to observing the Mosaic law one had to be Jewish/ritually circumcised. Jewish roots is not circumcision and Gentiles being obligated to the law, but rather an understanding of the progression of the early Jewish church from the OT to a NT understanding as practiced by the pre-Nicea church.

beautifulmarilou, I realize you asked this question a couple weeks ago, so an answer may now be irrelevant, but if you have not yet confronted your friend about the issues, I advise you to leave your personal feelings out of it. Don't go to her out of anger or because she hurt you by using you, but out of love as a sister in Christ. Pray about it, of course, and ask the Lord if it's the right thing to do, and to give you the right words to speak. If it's still on your heart to address the issue, then do it humbly and out of love for her soul because you don't want to see her lose her relationship with God. She may not like what you say, and she may accuse you of many things, but "Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." Proverbs 27:6

Karma is something out from the new age movement and has roots in some Pagan religion. Since being a Christian, I refuse to use it, but instead I would quote "you reap what you sow". Opt out to be politically correct, both serve the same meaning. Anyone would like to elaborate?

~ The Lie About "Good Works As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:10-12 And The Truth About For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:23-28 Jesus It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:62 And His Word Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

~ Amen~! A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. Isaiah 42:3 Praying Too A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. Matthew 12:20 Oh How I Love Jesus

Without a doubt the Holy Roman Empire (the Roman Catholic Church) hit a grand slam with this new Pope. Have you noticed how the media is almost giddy when doing stories about him? Until Francis, the claims against Catholic Priests abusing children would not go away. Now... poof! they're all gone. I do not believe Francis is disingenuous or anything. That's what made him such a good choice by those who are really in charge... a great piece of damage control work for the Cardinal staff. Roman Catholicism taps into that (nearly) incurable religious vein in humanity. People love a religion and religious experiences... which actually interferes with a true relationship with God. If you look at the Bible overall as God trying to wean humanity off of religion or our religious bent, it makes a lot more sense why he did things the way he did. We Protestants cannot sit back and point fingers at Catholics and say, "Aha!" Not really. Since so much of Protestant organizational structures and practices are essentially variations on Catholicism. The priesthood is not a good old boys club of the few the proud the seminarians... but in the Church organism, we are a kingdom of priests each and every one of us. 1 John 1 (KJV) 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 2:1-9 (KJV) 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

Genesis 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Over the past week, the world has experienced some severe birth pangs. If you’ve been reading Worthy News, you’ve read the situation in Ukraine has intensifed with the Russians massing their troops along the border with the West condemning the referendum taking this weekend in Crimea. In Israel, scores of rockets were fired out of the Gaza Strip and rockets continue to be fired despite a "ceasefire". The Iranians continue to threaten the destruction of Israel as an Iranian Revolutionary Guard commander stated, "Islam has given us this wish, capacity and power to destroy the Zionist regime so that our hands will remain on the trigger from 1,400km away for the day when such an incident (confrontation with Israel) takes place." Wars and rumors of wars embrace the headlines! The world is on the brink of going over the edge! Nevertheless, even in this climate of anxiety, we are preparing to enter into Shabbat (the Hebrew word for Sabbath) this afternoon. And as we do, we remember again, the deep lesson of God's entering into His rest following the six creation days. After working for six days – He entered into Shabbat. The word Shabbat comes from the Hebrew verb "shavat", which literally means "to cease". Shabbat implies that we need to stop working — stop trying — stop doing…simply, to cease from our own work. We need to simply let go, and let God! In a way it's different kind of work. The writer of the letter to the Hebrews puts it this way: "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." [Hebrews 4:11] So, this is a "work" of faith, where we are no longer working, but trusting God to accomplish the work He has begun and is perfectly able to complete! This Shabbat, if you dealing with fear of the future, rest in the fact that YOUR future is already secure in the finished work of Messiah! You can trust Him, in faith, knowing that not a single hair of your head can fall to the ground without Him allowing it! Enjoy your Shabbat tonight and embrace the profound lesson of the Sabbath – let go, and let God! Remember that the only real rest from anxiety, worry and fear … is found in HIM – Yeshua, the Lord of Shabbat! View the full article

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This post is such a blessing to my heart. "surrendering ourselves anew to the Lord". Thank you brother.

Thank-you for your testimony, Sheniy.

Excellent thread, nebula. I understand where you're coming from, having a similar experience in a church as a kid. This was a church who's view of the bible was Sola Scriptura, "Scriptures alone". They were positive that they had all the answers, and they used this as a reason to tear down other denominations and believers. There was a pastor there who was more interested in indoctrinating us with this particular brand of christianity than actually teaching about God. "This is how we're right," he'd teach, "and this is how everyone else is wrong." I learned from him how to bash people over the head with the "truth". Matthew 23:15 ""Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are." I realized later that I was being indoctrinated (and manipulated) specifically because my mom was questioning a particular doctrine that they hold very dearly. They were using me to get to her. She was just a mother and housewife and never went to bible college, but she was more devoted to the Word and the actual Truth than using the bible to defend a doctrine. She showed me where they were wrong and how they were manipulating scripture to "prove" their point. Looking back, I don't see any love or God in those teachings from my pastor. They didn't bring me closer to Jesus, but caused division in the body of Christ. I haven't seen this passage quoted yet, but maybe I missed it. It seems appropriate. 1 Corinthians 13:1-8 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away."

Hi enoob57, Maybe I am misunderstanding you. I followed the things you were saying but the conclusion of your synopsis puzzles me. Any ability that we have comes from God and we are to minister to others according to the ability God has given each of us according to..... 2 Peter 4:10-11 - As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Not everyone is at the same place or level of understanding and we all have different measures of grace and callings upon our lives. Some are older in the Lord who have more wisdom and knowledge as well as experience. Some have just started out and have very little knowledge and no experience. So we can't be hasty in our judgment of others as having not the Holy Spirit Automatically lumping everyone who comes into this fine discussion without the Holy Spirit as having their feet on the path of everlasting Flame... I take it that you are saying and referring to those within this thread that you do not personally agree with as not having the Holy Spirit thus your condemnation and judgment upon them. I think most people who come here are believers and are having fellowship with one another. And I know I personally can't lump everyone who may disagree with me and have a different view or take on things as not having the Holy Spirit. Now if you are specifically referring to false prophets and teachers then I understand as their judgment stands sure. But your conclusion was not clear to me in this regards.

Blessings Everyone.... I do believe that Jesus being tempted by satan was a literal account because God says it was.......the enemy ,it is true,attacks us with lies & deceit in an insidious manner,disguising himself from plain view........I do not think he would even try to disguise himself from Jesus.......Hide from God?Not possible..........................Glory to God! With love-in Christ,Kwik

i dont mind if you dont believe me in my experience but saying i did not meet him? how would you know who i have encountered or not? just because we met in hell? like i said my faith was to be tested and i know who Jesus is. you are right he does not reside in hell however as almighty God who are we to say he will not be there to protect us if we visit it? that said i am done debating about this as it is not going to help either side Col 1:15 He (Jesus Christ) is the image of the invisible God. So you did not see and/or meet with God the Father in a dream or otherwise. If you are in error here, how much more of your experiences are also wrong. Hades is already described in Luke 16:19-31. In Christ Montana Marv

I just came upon a site trying to attack a man of God because he preaches Lordship Salvation: LORDSHIP SALVATION is the false doctrine that a sinner MUST be willing to stop living a sinful lifestyle or to give up the sinful world to be saved. In sharp contrast, the Bible, God's Word, teaches that a sinner's faith in Christ alone is sufficient for salvation. Salvation is receiving, not giving. Eternal life is a gift. I could post the site link but I don't know if it'll do any good. If people want it then I will. Clearly this person hsa not read through the four gospels enough. What do people expect the gospel to be??? Except: Repent! For the Kingdom of God is at hand! If that isn't God declaring His Lordship and demanding we submit to it in order to be saved, then what else is it? Why would we not accept that the Lord is God if we truly believe in Him? I'm concerned because there are people out there who believe some other gospel and hold the true one as false. How many, I don't know, but I suspect a significant amount. I did feel bad for the man of God and his reputation, but I soon felt wrse for those upholding this lie and the judgement they will come under. That is what freaks me out. Am I on my own here??????? Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Not faith alone, but grace through faith! Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Grace from the LORD Jesus!

that would not be good advice fireheart. John received his vision on the Island of Patmos and if his mine were in neutral, he would not have been able to write as he was told to write, what was given him in the revelation. Your experience is not Biblical...I have known quite a few who passively enjoy this type of experience. It is not the Holy Spirit...there is not purpose to it and it is deception....you are not having unique expriences. As I stated, I have seen this type of thing on a good number of occasions and nothing solid ever comes from them. God is not glorified, the Body of Christ is not edified and there is no spiritual growth in the individual who purposes to allow these spiritualist activities to continue. Rather, the person becomes wrapped in their experience and Bible study and actual prayer...to God...that is, God as we learn of Him in scripture, becomes non-existent and the person believes they have some special endowment or dispensation and they begin to reject anyone who does not believe God is speaking through them or using them in a way that basically is apart from scripture and actually disagrees with scripture, as has already been pointed out. A word of caution...we are not supposed to slip our minds into neutral. That, is not the teaching of the Bible. In a passive state, our minds are suggestible and open to thoughts and suggestions that are not of God. Frankly, I would, having read numerous of your dreams/visions and questions regarding prophecy in the last few days, reject out of hand and without reservation what you experiencing. I understand that advice will most likely not be received. The deeper you go into these fantasies, the harder it will be to acknowledge truth. Yes, I am quite blunt, but I have tried to caution you with scripture...so, I am now just writing quite plainly. The , the revealed and inspired word of God, does not ever teach that we go into the spiritual realm and do not use our minds. this, is not of God And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, II Corinthians 10: 4-5 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. Colossians 3:16

Objective faith is just being convinced that something is so. Faith may be contrary to evidence, or based on no evidence, some evidence, much evidence, sufficient evidence, or absolute proof. It is all faith. But I put it to you that proper objective faith is being convinced that something is true based on the sufficiency of the evidence or the obviousness of the self-evident. What we usually call science is simply human knowledge of the physical world. And the accuracy of the knowledge varies from proposition to proposition. The knowledge may be merely a model that could explain something or it may be as certain as if A = B, the A + C = B + C. All of the propositions in a science textbook could be theoretically rated on a scale of 0-10 as to how accurate they are. A given person's faith in the accuracy of the propositions could also be rated on a scale. Only a fool would rate them all with a 10.

We have an Odyssey.

I am in agreement with Ayin (as usual). God is not only my creator, He is my friend..... It's impossible to maintain a friendship without communicating with each other and that is what prayer is to me.... Talking to my friend.... Sometimes it's asking for help, and sometimes just thanking Him for something or asking for something for others or asking for advice on some decision...... and sometimes it's just to sit back and chat. The more you talk th easier it becomes and as Ayin says, it just becomes a part of life.... I talk to God even more than I talk to my wife.... he listens to those trivial things that others aren't interested in. even at my age of 67 or so, I've never had God tell me He's busy and to check back with him later.

Hmmm lots here. I agree that prayer is communication. I dont agree with the way ignatius recommended someone pray. I certainly dont like comparing prayer to buddhist beliefs. Prayer to me though isnt about asking God to make me happy. Prayer is wanting to communicate with Him and to bond with Him in prayer. To know His wishes through prayer. It is a way I reach out to the Lord to know Him better. I also pray for others which has no effect on my happiness or in how I hear Him or bond with Him. Prayer to me is as much a part of me as breathing. Something I cant live without doing. I would never have known english was not your first language though.

should not perish, but not definitely will not perish...... because there is more to it than just the simple English definition of that word believe. Later translations do use the word shall not instead of should not and their is a world of difference in that phrase..... and it can give one a false sense of security when that security is not a reality because some refuse to do the will of the Father in their daily lives. John 3:16 is a beginning.... but only a beginning. Should is quite clear & correct. Christ's death is that you should not perish. But you can do so if you insist. You must believe in the Son to have eternal life. I suggest that you read Ps 119 on this subject. By grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works ! It all fits together beautifully. ..... and I would suggest you read Matthew 7:21+

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Old School, if a woman marries a man but does not covenant to make this man "her lawfully wedded husband", what kind of marriage is it? If the woman wants the man's benefits but does not want to give the man her benefits as his wife, is she truly marrying him? Whether the others are agreeing or disagreeing with the Google resources, I cannot say. But what I am reading from the others are not what you are saying. A huge problem we have with Christianity today is people wanting Christianity for the benefits but still be their own god. Yes, sanctification is a process, but with salvation what do you believe Jesus is saving us from?

should not perish, but not definitely will not perish...... because there is more to it than just the simple English definition of that word believe. Later translations do use the word shall not instead of should not and their is a world of difference in that phrase..... and it can give one a false sense of security when that security is not a reality because some refuse to do the will of the Father in their daily lives. John 3:16 is a beginning.... but only a beginning.

Let me try to re-clarify this. There is a battle between extremes, and I believe they both miss the boat. One side says: "By grace you are saved through faith . . . not of works" as if Jesus died just for us to get into Heaven, not to save us from Sin, and as if God doesn't care about us doing things that hurt others, hurt ourselves, and poke Him in the eye. The other side says, "Faith without works is dead" as if following strict rules and regulations and beating your body into submission will increase faith, that while Jesus paved the way, salvation is still up to us and our effort. Neither of these are the Gospel. It may be that the "man of God" posted in the OP was arguing the first extreme, or maybe he was just speaking against the second extreme (but not necessarily advocating the first extreme). What is the better focus? Perhaps this: 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died ; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh ; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature ; the old things passed away ; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5) If you've encountered the love of Christ, your desires and attitude will change - not because you tried, but because His love is just that powerful. When you are consumed by His love, you are not going to want to do those things which grieve His heart, whether deed or attitude. And that's why both extremes miss the boat. The first extreme bypasses reconciliation. We are the ones who offended God. While the offendee needs to extend forgiveness, which God freely does, the offender needs to offer remorse and confession of the offense. They are like the child who begs the parent for escape from the punishment without acknowledgment nor remorse for their deed. Is that what grace is about? The second extreme bypasses that in Christ we are new creatures and not to be recognized according to the flesh. Righteousness comes from His new nature in us, not our effort to make ourselves righteous. We are controlled by His love, not by rules and regulations. You came by a favorite passage of mine from 2 Cor 5: "16 Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more." It is not just Christians who are not to be known after the flesh; it is all men. We are not do know men after the flesh. I take that in context to mean that we are not to know them as the stinking Adamic sinners that they are. Indeed, their whole being is flesh (Adamic human nature). But we know them as persons for whom Christ died & for whom a marvelous new nature has been provided. We urge them to be reconciled, thoroughly changed, thoroughly other-ized. καταλλάγητε. κατ(α) = thoroughly αλλ- = other άγητε = be ye -ized.

you can call it what ever you want, but if you do not do the things that Jesus told us to do...... you will not be accepted.

Are you equating the terms and conditions of so-called Lordship Salvation with a confession of faith? If so, then is becoming a disciple now a prerequisite for salvation? Old School - What do you do with the bolded parts of Romans 10:9,10? 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Are you saying that an unsaved person can even come to Jesus without the Holy Spirit? If He can convict their hearts to bring them to Jesus to begin with, why can't He likewise stir in their hearts to confess their sinful state and give their lives to Jesus as their Lord as well as their Savior? I do not perceive anyone here to be advocating what you are expressing here. Can you sign a lease with a person you do not acknowledge as your landlord to whom you must be submitted to? Can a woman marry a man and not acknowledge him as her husband even during the marriage vows? Can a person vow citizenship to a new country without confessing submission to the government of the country? Can a child be adopted and not regard the adopting person of couple as their parent(s)? I do not perceive the others here advocating that one has to "clean up to take a bath", cease from any sin, have a changed attitude, etc. to come to salvation. But to ask Jesus to save you without following Him is like letting Him cut your chains but then remaining in the prison cell rather than following Him out of it. See the difference?

Let me try to re-clarify this. There is a battle between extremes, and I believe they both miss the boat. One side says: "By grace you are saved through faith . . . not of works" as if Jesus died just for us to get into Heaven, not to save us from Sin, and as if God doesn't care about us doing things that hurt others, hurt ourselves, and poke Him in the eye. The other side says, "Faith without works is dead" as if following strict rules and regulations and beating your body into submission will increase faith, that while Jesus paved the way, salvation is still up to us and our effort. Neither of these are the Gospel. It may be that the "man of God" posted in the OP was arguing the first extreme, or maybe he was just speaking against the second extreme (but not necessarily advocating the first extreme). What is the better focus? Perhaps this: 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died ; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh ; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature ; the old things passed away ; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5) If you've encountered the love of Christ, your desires and attitude will change - not because you tried, but because His love is just that powerful. When you are consumed by His love, you are not going to want to do those things which grieve His heart, whether deed or attitude. And that's why both extremes miss the boat. The first extreme bypasses reconciliation. We are the ones who offended God. While the offendee needs to extend forgiveness, which God freely does, the offender needs to offer remorse and confession of the offense. They are like the child who begs the parent for escape from the punishment without acknowledgment nor remorse for their deed. Is that what grace is about? The second extreme bypasses that in Christ we are new creatures and not to be recognized according to the flesh. Righteousness comes from His new nature in us, not our effort to make ourselves righteous. We are controlled by His love, not by rules and regulations.

I am thinking the term was coined because of people who come to Jesus for "fire insurance" (escape from Hell) but have no desire to love of serve Him, to have a changed heart, to pass from death to life on this earth (which is what it means to make Jesus your Lord). "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead...." There are those that want the latter without the former. And that's not good. Declaring sanctification to be a prerequisite for salvation can't be good either; doesn't the former follow the latter? Maybe Lordship Sanctification? Hi Old School - you need to balance this out with the other things I posted in this thread. ( and ) But can a person be saved without confessing Jesus as Lord? (Rom. 10:9,10)

I am thinking the term was coined because of people who come to Jesus for "fire insurance" (escape from Hell) but have no desire to love of serve Him, to have a changed heart, to pass from death to life on this earth (which is what it means to make Jesus your Lord). "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead...." There are those that want the latter without the former. And that's not good. Declaring sanctification to be a prerequisite for salvation can't be good either; doesn't the former follow the latter? Maybe Lordship Sanctification? oldschool2, Instead of getting frustrated with your dogmatism, I want to at least try to understand why you argue these points in the manner you do. Are you a 5 or 4 point calvanist? Nebula just quoted a verse that you should not be able to simply ignore, because it is in the context of salvation, not sanctification, yet you try to bring an artificial split here and you should explain yourself. explain the verse in its context, without any of your rhetoric please.

Remember that just because somebody is AN anti-Christ, it doesn't mean to say that they are THE anti-Christ. I personally don't think that THE anti-Christ has shown his face in public yet.

A need in what sense? For salvation? Is this a precondition for salvation or a response to salvation? rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

We grow in grace while accepting ALL of God's grace to us in that, as Nebula already expressed, Christ died for us while we were still sinners. The Bible is clear that one who is truly born again will not continue to live a deliberate lifestyle of sin as they did before they believed. Sometimes people argue over semantics as though salvation depended on just the right combination of words. That being said, no once stops sinning in order to be saved and being saved does not mean you automatically stop sinning. The Holy Spirit deals with each of us and we are not all off an assembly line. I've never heard of 'Lordship Salvation' and to be honest, I am almost exhausted with reading and hearing about new terms and phrases that cannot be found in scripture. While the work of the Holy Spirit is profound and even above all we understand, the gospel itself is very simple as Christ declared salvation complete in Him when He declared "It is finished" at the time He surrendered His life into God's hands. I would say we all surrender our lives in much the same way as we do not know and cannot see the road before us that God will place our feet upon as we give our lives to Him.

No no, unless there is repentance first. God gives us grace through faith to save us from sin, not so that we could continue in sin. It is an ongoing work, and culminates in spiritual perfection. Do you believe that there is no need for repentance?

I do not think that unregenerate man, the unsaved, has a chance at not sinning, so no one is saved becuase they stopped sinning. On the other hand . . . 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. That passage seems like we are saved and then do the works that please God. 1 Cor 10:13 sounds almost as though for those who have been indwelt by the spirit, the saved, it might be possible to resist temptation: 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. Just thoughts.

You don't think God saves us unless we stop sinning first?

Blessings layhoma! By George....I think you have it!LOL Praise & Glory to God,Jesus= Grace!!!!!!!! I don't think I ever said"Welcome to Worthy!",nice to meet you! With love,in Christ-Kwik

Thanks everyone. I think I can now distinguish the difference in two words. Hope and Forgiveness. Blessings

Both are built of similar things, but only one is God inspired. God is the one who came up with you reap what you sow-He knows because He is God, and its its a natural consequence for our actions here on earth, and like willow said there is forgiveness for our sins, though we may still have consequences for our negative actions here on earth. Karma, is merely a false religion observing something already happening in our earth-(reaping what you sow) and adding a new name to it, karma, and adding their own reasoning to it-like willow said no "get out" clause.

The simple difference is Karma is a Buddhist belief and reaping/sowing a Christian belief. The doctrine is not the same.

Before being saved, I used to believe in the doctrine of Karma and it is somewhat similar to the concept of 'you reap what you sow'. The problem with karma however, is that you have no get-out clause - you pay back every penny of the debt that you owe. Jesus forgives us our sins. He pays our debts for us. Karma on the other hand,is a concept that comes from Hinduism, a false religion that cannot offer salvation.

Wow brother. You blew me away with this Christ honoring post. Thank you for reminding us all what our priorities should be. By the way, did you notice the scripture verse I have below my photo? What do you think about these words our Lord gave to us in light of this discussion? Spock, I tend to find the most agreement with the position that God has consistently made a way of escape for the righteous in any time of direct judgement, or what we would call "the wrath of God being poured out." Noah, Lot, the Isrealites in Egypt, they all demonstrate how God protects and delivers the righteous in such times. The scriptures, in regards to end times, consistently describes the persecution of saints, and the horrific physical judgments upon the unrepentant and those who take the mark. I guess I cannot categorically say whether or not the persecution and executions of the saints is one of the things that God makes an escape for, in reference to your verse. A look at Rev 7:9-17 would require that an innumerable multitude of people from EVERY people group on earth would get saved and martyred after an assumed rapture. This is difficult to imagine, but not impossible. Any sort of examination of the NT, and early church history would cause a rational person to question whether martyrdom is something that God makes "escape" for!!! All of the 12 apostles except John were martyred (and they tried to boil him in oil!), and many of the finest saints who have lived, even in modern times, have either been brutalized or martyred for the cause of Christ. To lay down your life for the Greatest One seems a great honor in the eyes of God. I am in no way whatsoever saying you go and make it happen! However, we all must die at some point, and life is fleeting (more fleeting the older I get!!). Sorry if I am saying too much here, I guess I can summarize by saying it is God's pattern to make escape from episodes of His wrath being meted out, but much less His history to keep even His most prized soldiers from giving their life on the field of spiritual battle! It seems that our God is rather dramatic, and loves giving the hero's welcome! Check this out! Acts 7:54-60 Stephen the Martyr 54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. NKJV Oh ya baby!! Jesus SAT DOWN at the right hand, but he STOOD UP to welcome Steven!! Call me nuts, or radical, or whatever, but I will gladly give my life if it is His perfect will for this Jesus! WOW!!!!!!

I hope there's more time than this year. There are way too many people that need to know the Lord, instead of focusing on when He's coming, my focus is on spreading His precious Gospel. We cant be like, "to heaven with me, and to hell with everyone else." People need Jesus. The rapture is not a rescue mission but a wedding.